Social Security and the individual's responsibility - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 03-05-2009, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

The FDA wouldn't exist if the market were able to deal with toxic contamination of food and drugs themselves. And unless you have a rather impressive chemistry set at home, you won't be taking the place of the FDA any time soon. And the FDA does prevent many, many dangerous or dishonest products from finding their way into our supermarket shelves or pharmacies. The fact is that the FDA doesn't have the resources they need to keep up with the multitude of failures on the part of manufacturers. Look here:

You're likening the companies that produced the tainted meat and peanuts with terrorists. I think that demonstrates my point about the market not being the solution to every problem.

I took high school chemistry and I think a chemistry class in college. I wouldn't know where to begin when testing my peanuts for e coli.

The picture's already there, it's been painted. I'd like an answer to this question:

Where and when has your suggested alternative worked?

The FDA fails on many levels. There are many products that don't require FDA approval, labeling, certification, or testing. Remember, I've been studying the food manufacturing business and the retail grocery business for 3-4 years now.

I'm not likening anything to terrorism. You're taking that leap faster and farther than the General Lee in the Dukes of Hazzard. I'm showing that government agencies fail the citizens often. The government agencies will continue to fail its citizens.

Just like democracy America is the great experiment and wasn't working any place over 200 years ago.

Again, I'm asking for a choice, which you're stating absolutes that I'm claiming only to have one thing and that is private choices. I'm asking for a choice in the matter, a choice given to everyone.

Willravel · 03-05-2009, 12:06 PM

Where are these countries where so many elderly people live so well without the benefit of social programs like social security?

Cynthetiq · 03-05-2009, 12:12 PM

You can start with Austria and Germany. They use pension systems instead of government involved systems as I understand them. Again, it is a private based system based on unionized employment. You'll note that the high quality of living and low poverty levels of both countries.

Willravel · 03-05-2009, 05:41 PM

While there are certainly voluntary insurance options in Germany, there are 5 main government insurances that are compulsory:
Health insurance
Long-term care insurance
Pension insurance
Unemployment insurance
Work accident insurance
Germany Guide: Social security, The German social security system Insurance policies can be divided between co
These are each social programs like Social Security (though not identical). Can you imagine if we were to replace Social Security with universal healthcare and universal pension insurance? I'd be willing to make that deal.

I'm having trouble finding information about Austria.

Cynthetiq · 03-05-2009, 05:50 PM

I'm all for all these social services if you apply the employment taxes from them, but then our cost of goods will increase to that of Europe's. I'm fine with that many people are not. They'd like the benefit without paying the admission charge.

I see in 2005 they merged them all together into 1 system. The more that I read about Social security types from country to country, it is just a ponzi scheme from generation to generation.

new man · 03-06-2009, 08:52 AM

Wow Cynthetiq,

When I was your age, I used to know as much about the world and how it operated as you do. Everything was so clear cut. If I did my part, then good things would happen. Everything always works like it's supposed to. Life works out for the best. Then I got a little bit older, and I realized that life was harder. I am smart. I do usually work hard. I have a great wife. But it is a challenge. Not everyone has the advantages that you or I or Willravel do. That is why there is a government mandated safety net.

"If I can see so far, it is only because I have stood on the shoulders of giants."
Isaac Newton.

Here is a piece from Warren Buffett, arguably one of the biggest of the self-made men:

I’ve had it so good in this world, you know. The odds were fifty-to-one against me being born in the United States in 1930. I won the lottery the day I emerged from the womb by being in the United States instead of in some country where my chances would have been way different.

Imagine there are two identical twins in the womb, both equally bright and energetic. And the genie says to them, ‘One of you is going to be born in the United States, and one of you is going to be born in Bangladesh. And if you wind up in Bangladesh, you will pay no taxes. What percentage of your income would you bid to be the one that is born in the United Sates?’ It says something about the fact that society has something to do with your fate and not just your innate qualities. the people who say, ‘I did it all myself,’ and think of themselves as Horatio Alger - believe me, they’d bid more to be in the United States than in Bangladesh. That’s the Ovarian Lottery.

–Warren Buffett on page 643 of The Snowball: Warren Buffett and the Business of Life

So you did not do it alone, Cynthetiq. Get over yourself or you will dislocate your arm patting yourself on the back. You live in a country where there is clean water, fresh air, good roads, ok schools, laws, police, jury by peers, voting, equal rights, etc... Yes, there are problems with every system in the US, but overall it works.

Here is a piece about what the FDA did right, saving many children from crippling birth defects. We were spared this because our govt organization did due diligence.
History of birth defects

In Europe and Canada during the early 1960s, thalidomide was prescribed to treat morning sickness in pregnant women. At that time, it was not approved in the United States because Dr. Frances Kelsey from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) stated there was insufficient proof of the drug’s safety in humans. Thalidomide was soon banned worldwide when it was discovered that it caused tragic birth defects. According to the March of Dimes (MOD, November 1998), "More than 10,000 children around the world were born with major malformations, many missing arms and legs, because their mothers had taken the drug during early pregnancy. Mothers who had taken the drug when arms and legs were beginning to form had babies with a widely varying but recognizable pattern of limb deformities. The most well-known pattern, absence of most of the arm with the hands extending flipper-like from the shoulders, is called phocomelia. Another frequent arm malformation called radial aplasia was absence of the thumb and the adjoining bone in the lower arm. Similar limb malformations occurred in the lower extremities. The affected babies almost always had both sides affected and often had both the arms and the legs malformed. In addition to the limbs, the drug caused malformations of the eyes and ears, heart, genitals, kidneys, digestive tract (including the lips and mouth), and nervous system. Thalidomide was recognized as a powerful human teratogen (a drug or other agent that causes abnormal development in the embryo or fetus). Taking even a single dose of thalidomide during early pregnancy may cause major birth defects."

Cynthetiq · 03-06-2009, 09:16 AM

Funny, because again, I've not said I've done anything alone. I've posted that I want more control over my own destiny just like other people who currenty *CAN* opt out of paying for SSI.

If they can't why can't I? If there is criteria that allows them to opt out and I meet or exceed that criteria with another package then why can I not have that choice?

re: the FDA, they do some things right just like all people and entities, but I do not put 100% of my faith in them just like I do not put 100% of my faith in the SSI system. I do not see why that is so hard to fathom for you or Willravel.

I acknowledge your points, and respect them as they are. I'm simply asking for ADDITONAL choice whereas Will says simply, "No, you should have no choice but the single one because the government will take care of you just like everyone else."

new man · 03-06-2009, 09:50 AM

Because it is not just about you. You don't have a right to opt out. You don't get what you put into SS. It doesn't work that way. It has never worked that way. Maybe you get more, maybe you get less. If you live for a year into retirement and Skogafoss is no longer around, then your benefits stop when you die. if you have a retarded child, then your child will have SS benefits. Even if you two did something that caused that retardation. Or if you did everything right. What if you and Skogafoss have a child, and you get creamed by a bus the day after she is born? Your only insurance is the piddly work insurance, and Skog's salary is not enough to pay for your New York living. She and your daughter get SS benefits.

You have all the choices you want. Go to another country. Make your way through where there is no govt support system, like China. Knock yourself out. You can always put your own money away in the US. There are no restrictions on that. After you have paid your portion to society.

it's like the same argument for people not wanting to pay for a good public education because they sent their child to private school or they had no children. You pay for education in the hopes that little Johnny gets an education and a job instead of growing into Big Johnny Shithead who breaks into your house and steals your tv.

roachboy · 03-06-2009, 10:02 AM

new man said more or less what i was thinking of saying in direct response to you, cyn.
there's more as well:
the delusion that was the proposal to privatize social security rested on some basic assumptions particular to the self-evidently outmoded ideology of "free markets"--that the state was a priori irrational, which historically speaking is absurd (this is not to say that there are not irrationalities, but if you look at, o i dunno, the american car industry it should be obvious that the state has no monopoly on them)---that economic expansion was a steady state, a claim that was myopic even at the moment it was uttered--the latter is particularly important in that it enabled an acccompanying illusion, which was that there is no particular risk involved with privatization, only a freeing of a function from the (conservative fantasy) version of the state.

reality has pulverized all of that. you'd think that this pulverization would have some effect on people, cause them to rethink their positions, particularly if those positions are intertwined with *exactly* the political worldview that was pulverized, and that simply because it was put into practice.

it's particularly absurd now to argue that social security should be optional given the spiking of unemployment and possibility of instant downward mobility that brings along with it.

the world is bigger than you or i.

Cynthetiq · 03-06-2009, 11:16 AM

Again, I'm not asking to not pay for someone else's share. I'm stating that the government has it's irresponsibilities as does private businesses.

so allow private companies to make a product that allows for choices with restrictions and guidelines in the same manner that the government has.

If it isn't the case that you can't opt out of payment, please explain why those other pension plans previously mentioned are allowed to opt out. If it's for the benefit of everyone, then why are they allowed to and I'm not.

blktour · 03-06-2009, 04:02 PM

I swear everyone needs to read The Revolution: A Manifesto, by Ron Paul.

He actually goes in depth on all issues that are plaguing us today and how to fix it.

I think SS should be here but we dont have money to fund it since we are "stimulating" the economy. Why dont we have enough money? because politicians are lining their own pockets and we are stuck with the bill.

this whole stimulus package is basically us taking another loan out and inflating the dollar.

people who say this is a good idea, never really see if there is another way to do this?

All the other programs that are around are a waste of money.

Less government intervention is what we need. all the rules and laws they put forth is a transfer of wealth from us to the rich.

RP touched on an agreement where britian and the US were in international trades and made the US change some laws to tax more overseas so that the european countries had a fighting change. things that take away our basic rights.

I am not going into specifics since the concept is still there that anytime that government gets involved it just causes more strain, and at the same time taking from us to give to certain groups.

03-05-2009, 12:12 PM	#43 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	You can start with Austria and Germany. They use pension systems instead of government involved systems as I understand them. Again, it is a private based system based on unionized employment. You'll note that the high quality of living and low poverty levels of both countries. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

03-05-2009, 05:50 PM	#45 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	I'm all for all these social services if you apply the employment taxes from them, but then our cost of goods will increase to that of Europe's. I'm fine with that many people are not. They'd like the benefit without paying the admission charge. I see in 2005 they merged them all together into 1 system. The more that I read about Social security types from country to country, it is just a ponzi scheme from generation to generation. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

03-06-2009, 09:16 AM	#47 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	Funny, because again, I've not said I've done anything alone. I've posted that I want more control over my own destiny just like other people who currenty CAN opt out of paying for SSI. If they can't why can't I? If there is criteria that allows them to opt out and I meet or exceed that criteria with another package then why can I not have that choice? re: the FDA, they do some things right just like all people and entities, but I do not put 100% of my faith in them just like I do not put 100% of my faith in the SSI system. I do not see why that is so hard to fathom for you or Willravel. I acknowledge your points, and respect them as they are. I'm simply asking for ADDITONAL choice whereas Will says simply, "No, you should have no choice but the single one because the government will take care of you just like everyone else." __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

03-06-2009, 10:02 AM	#49 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	new man said more or less what i was thinking of saying in direct response to you, cyn. there's more as well: the delusion that was the proposal to privatize social security rested on some basic assumptions particular to the self-evidently outmoded ideology of "free markets"--that the state was a priori irrational, which historically speaking is absurd (this is not to say that there are not irrationalities, but if you look at, o i dunno, the american car industry it should be obvious that the state has no monopoly on them)---that economic expansion was a steady state, a claim that was myopic even at the moment it was uttered--the latter is particularly important in that it enabled an acccompanying illusion, which was that there is no particular risk involved with privatization, only a freeing of a function from the (conservative fantasy) version of the state. reality has pulverized all of that. you'd think that this pulverization would have some effect on people, cause them to rethink their positions, particularly if those positions are intertwined with exactly the political worldview that was pulverized, and that simply because it was put into practice. it's particularly absurd now to argue that social security should be optional given the spiking of unemployment and possibility of instant downward mobility that brings along with it. the world is bigger than you or i. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

03-06-2009, 11:16 AM	#50 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	Again, I'm not asking to not pay for someone else's share. I'm stating that the government has it's irresponsibilities as does private businesses. so allow private companies to make a product that allows for choices with restrictions and guidelines in the same manner that the government has. If it isn't the case that you can't opt out of payment, please explain why those other pension plans previously mentioned are allowed to opt out. If it's for the benefit of everyone, then why are they allowed to and I'm not. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

03-05-2009, 12:06 PM	#42 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Where are these countries where so many elderly people live so well without the benefit of social programs like social security?

03-05-2009, 05:41 PM	#44 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	While there are certainly voluntary insurance options in Germany, there are 5 main government insurances that are compulsory: Health insurance Long-term care insurance Pension insurance Unemployment insurance Work accident insurance Germany Guide: Social security, The German social security system Insurance policies can be divided between co These are each social programs like Social Security (though not identical). Can you imagine if we were to replace Social Security with universal healthcare and universal pension insurance? I'd be willing to make that deal. I'm having trouble finding information about Austria.

03-06-2009, 08:52 AM	#46 (permalink)
new man Banned	Wow Cynthetiq, When I was your age, I used to know as much about the world and how it operated as you do. Everything was so clear cut. If I did my part, then good things would happen. Everything always works like it's supposed to. Life works out for the best. Then I got a little bit older, and I realized that life was harder. I am smart. I do usually work hard. I have a great wife. But it is a challenge. Not everyone has the advantages that you or I or Willravel do. That is why there is a government mandated safety net. "If I can see so far, it is only because I have stood on the shoulders of giants." Isaac Newton. Here is a piece from Warren Buffett, arguably one of the biggest of the self-made men: I’ve had it so good in this world, you know. The odds were fifty-to-one against me being born in the United States in 1930. I won the lottery the day I emerged from the womb by being in the United States instead of in some country where my chances would have been way different. Imagine there are two identical twins in the womb, both equally bright and energetic. And the genie says to them, ‘One of you is going to be born in the United States, and one of you is going to be born in Bangladesh. And if you wind up in Bangladesh, you will pay no taxes. What percentage of your income would you bid to be the one that is born in the United Sates?’ It says something about the fact that society has something to do with your fate and not just your innate qualities. the people who say, ‘I did it all myself,’ and think of themselves as Horatio Alger - believe me, they’d bid more to be in the United States than in Bangladesh. That’s the Ovarian Lottery. –Warren Buffett on page 643 of The Snowball: Warren Buffett and the Business of Life So you did not do it alone, Cynthetiq. Get over yourself or you will dislocate your arm patting yourself on the back. You live in a country where there is clean water, fresh air, good roads, ok schools, laws, police, jury by peers, voting, equal rights, etc... Yes, there are problems with every system in the US, but overall it works. Here is a piece about what the FDA did right, saving many children from crippling birth defects. We were spared this because our govt organization did due diligence. History of birth defects In Europe and Canada during the early 1960s, thalidomide was prescribed to treat morning sickness in pregnant women. At that time, it was not approved in the United States because Dr. Frances Kelsey from the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) stated there was insufficient proof of the drug’s safety in humans. Thalidomide was soon banned worldwide when it was discovered that it caused tragic birth defects. According to the March of Dimes (MOD, November 1998), "More than 10,000 children around the world were born with major malformations, many missing arms and legs, because their mothers had taken the drug during early pregnancy. Mothers who had taken the drug when arms and legs were beginning to form had babies with a widely varying but recognizable pattern of limb deformities. The most well-known pattern, absence of most of the arm with the hands extending flipper-like from the shoulders, is called phocomelia. Another frequent arm malformation called radial aplasia was absence of the thumb and the adjoining bone in the lower arm. Similar limb malformations occurred in the lower extremities. The affected babies almost always had both sides affected and often had both the arms and the legs malformed. In addition to the limbs, the drug caused malformations of the eyes and ears, heart, genitals, kidneys, digestive tract (including the lips and mouth), and nervous system. Thalidomide was recognized as a powerful human teratogen (a drug or other agent that causes abnormal development in the embryo or fetus). Taking even a single dose of thalidomide during early pregnancy may cause major birth defects."

03-06-2009, 09:50 AM	#48 (permalink)
new man Banned	Because it is not just about you. You don't have a right to opt out. You don't get what you put into SS. It doesn't work that way. It has never worked that way. Maybe you get more, maybe you get less. If you live for a year into retirement and Skogafoss is no longer around, then your benefits stop when you die. if you have a retarded child, then your child will have SS benefits. Even if you two did something that caused that retardation. Or if you did everything right. What if you and Skogafoss have a child, and you get creamed by a bus the day after she is born? Your only insurance is the piddly work insurance, and Skog's salary is not enough to pay for your New York living. She and your daughter get SS benefits. You have all the choices you want. Go to another country. Make your way through where there is no govt support system, like China. Knock yourself out. You can always put your own money away in the US. There are no restrictions on that. After you have paid your portion to society. it's like the same argument for people not wanting to pay for a good public education because they sent their child to private school or they had no children. You pay for education in the hopes that little Johnny gets an education and a job instead of growing into Big Johnny Shithead who breaks into your house and steals your tv.

03-06-2009, 04:02 PM	#51 (permalink)
blktour Psycho Location: Anchorage, AK	I swear everyone needs to read The Revolution: A Manifesto, by Ron Paul. He actually goes in depth on all issues that are plaguing us today and how to fix it. I think SS should be here but we dont have money to fund it since we are "stimulating" the economy. Why dont we have enough money? because politicians are lining their own pockets and we are stuck with the bill. this whole stimulus package is basically us taking another loan out and inflating the dollar. people who say this is a good idea, never really see if there is another way to do this? All the other programs that are around are a waste of money. Less government intervention is what we need. all the rules and laws they put forth is a transfer of wealth from us to the rich. RP touched on an agreement where britian and the US were in international trades and made the US change some laws to tax more overseas so that the european countries had a fighting change. things that take away our basic rights. I am not going into specifics since the concept is still there that anytime that government gets involved it just causes more strain, and at the same time taking from us to give to certain groups.