dc_dux

Right...Obama is alone in that assessment?

Lets look at the numbers now...about 1/3 of the $790 billion is tax cuts and 2/3 or about $530 billion is spending.

So $530 billion is spending close to a trillion dollars?

Now that is fuzzy math in the best Reagan/G Bush tradition!

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Derwood

Can we stop comparing this recession to every other recession please? When was the last time the rate of foreclosure was this high? The rate of personal savings is the lowest it's been in years (or ever, don't remember).

I can't, in good faith, sit and tell the millions of people who have lost their jobs in the last 6 months to just sit there and wait for it all to blow over. It's a very easy POV to take when you're in no danger of losing your own job.

dippin

Now, at first this one might look on par with 74 and 81. But look at it closely: in other post-ww2 recessions, at this point in the recession employment either had started to rebound (like the 1974 recession) or at least job loss was declining (that is, job loss increasing at a decreasing rate). In our current recession, job loss only started to pick up over the last 4 months. If February is anything like January (and given seasonal adjustments, it is likely to be worse), it will officially become the worst recession in 70 years.

Now, this is only looking at the employment data. If we couple that to the monetary policy data, we see how we are in such a deep mess. 1981 came about when Volcker really stepped on the breaks, significantly raising interest rates in order to reign in inflation. Once inflation was under control, it was a matter of lowering interest rates and things improved.

Currently, we are already at the dreaded liquidity trap. There is no interest rate to cut to create the rebound...

aceventura3

No doubt the economy is doing badly, however President Obama, as our newly elected President on a massive wave of hope and optimism, had an opportunity to help the nation focus on what is good and what is working in our economy through words alone. That is not to say that you can not work on "fixes", but President Obama words are not in the tradition of exceptional leaders like FDR, Churchill, Reagan or even a leader like MLK - who spoke about the need for change in a manner that motivated people to respond to the opportunity of making a great nation greater. It is not easy for any leader to live up to the standards set by our greatest leaders, but it is sad that President Obama has missed his first opportunity for greatness. If you have any clout in Washington, sincerely, tell the folks to stop being so negative, people outside the beltway are ready to turn the corner, focus on the future and achieve our next round of greatness.

P.S. - Don't worry I'll go back to being an a$$ tomorrow.
-----Added 12/2/2009 at 04 : 58 : 48-----
Anecdotal - I own a business and after Obama's win in November, his rhetoric combined with the Democrats in Congress caused my moral as a business owner go to an all time low. I started asking myself the question - what is the point? I have updated my resume and I would even work for the government. I feel that under the current climate if I excel, I won't reap the rewards of years of sacrifice and hard work and I can simply find a 9 to 5 job with a few weeks vacation each year, a retirement plan of some type and health care. I have not been putting effort into growing my business. If I am unique, so be it. If I am one of thousands or millions, it is having an impact on the economy and more specifically jobs. In my view that explains the deep accelerating decline in employment in the past 3 months.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dippin

Except that job loss started to accelerate four months ago. That is, it started to pick up on October of last year. If we looked at weekly data, we'd come at the conclusion that things started to deteriorate quickly after september 15th.

You'd have to be pretty partisan and have unquestionable faith on the republicans to think this is caused by low morale due to Obama's win.

shakran

It's pretty laughable that anyone would think the recession is Obama's fault, considering the economy tanked long before he even got elected, much less took office. The recession is caused by a 30 year war on the middle class by greedy bastards who are already richer than God and who's only goal is to make even more money. It shouldn't have happened yet, but its timing was artificially accelerated because Bush, unlike the previous three presidents, managed to markedly intensify the attack.

"I don't care about the economy, I care about jobs" is a rather famous quote of his which not only demonstrates a profound lack of understanding of. . well. . anything, but also lends to an understanding of how we're in this mess at this time. Bush thought it was just fine if a well-paid middle class corporate worker lost her job and had to go work for Merry Maids for minimum wage. He either didn't understand or didn't care (IMO the latter, but we'll be nice and give him the benefit of the doubt) that people taking massive wage cuts meant they wouldn't be able to honor the financial commitments they had made. Add to this the fact that people were already getting risky mortgages and other bank loans (thanks not only to Bush, but to Clinton/Bush before him helping to deregulate the industry) and you have a very well-crafted financial disaster in the making.

This is actually good news for republicans. The rich elite have enough money to weather this economic storm, and with the economy in chaos, Obama and the congressional dems can't work toward any of the progressive (read: helping the majority of the country) ideas they have because they have to expend all their energy just trying to keep the country's head above water. By the time Obama gets us back on the road to financial recovery (4 years minimum, probably closer to 8) people will start listening to the "smaller government" crap that the republicans like to lie about and they'll be able to once again continue the raping and pillaging of the country's economy.

roachboy

all this follows from the founding assumptions behind neoliberalism:
capital creates wealth
labor only enters the equation as a variable cost

so capital accumulation in the aggregate is all that matters.

if these basic conditions were not in place, the reorganization of the geography of production called "globalization" would have been impossible.

the lunacy of this viewpoint is self-evident, and was from the outset--and in many ways, the crisis that we are passing through now is the playing out of the implications of the shell game that was put into place in an ad hoc manner to address by not addressing the social consequences of this ideology.

__________________
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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Tully Mars

It's makes sense if you believe Bush Jr. inherited 9-11.


Reagan?


Yep if you have the money to ride this out the opportunities on the other end will be f'ing great. If this causes you to loose your job, car, home you'll be damn glad at some point to work 14 hrs. a day just to get food for your family. China's screwed, cheap labor's going to be home grown in a few years.

If this gets played this right they can finally do away with the middle class altogether. That gap between the haves and the have nots will be so wide the middle will be completely empty.

__________________
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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Baraka_Guru

Even Adam Smith recognized the necessary role of labour in generating wealth. This, before capitalism was even a word.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

shakran

He fired the opening shots in the modern war on the middle class, but he wasn't able to quite get to the banking/investment regulations in the way that his successors did. That's why I didn't count him in that list, but don't think that because I didn't mention him with that specific act, that I hold him blameless. Quite the opposite.


Which explains why they were all for a bailout package that just gave free money to corporations, but don't want a bailout package that helps people get living-wage jobs.

roachboy

neoliberal ideology took shape as a public phenomenon under the thatcher-reagan period. it's roots go further back--david harvey did a little book on it that's really useful in sorting this out historically. in the states, there's a linkage between hooverite republicans and neoliberalism by way of the hoover institution, which pioneered the mode of conservative thinktank operations that you saw proliferating during the 80s. reagan is a central player--rather his administration is a central player. the populist conservative movement that functioned as a political relay system and as a giant mystification of the actual implications of the ideology took shape more slowly, but was well in place by the clinton period. in theory, everyone involved in any way with any of this has alot to answer for.

what's curious still is the extent to which this period of neoliberal hegemony is still not understood for what it was.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Derwood

well the bill passed the House today without a single Republican voting in favor of it, which makes one wonder why the Dems bent over backwards making concessions to them this whole time.

ratbastid

You know, after so many years of the Hastert Rule, I'm not feeling particularly bipartisan. I'm not real sure what it's good for, except that people seem to agree it's good.

Obama said it in early talks about this bill to a room full of Republican congresscritters: There's room on the train, and even room for a plurality of opinions. But get on the train, or get left behind. The bottom line is: we won this thing. And that trumps just about everything else you've got.

roachboy

seems to me that the republicans decided to try to maintain brand identity on this by trying to maintain their fatuous old "wasteful government spending" mantra which of course refers to all state spending that does not directly benefit the patronage network that backs the republican party in the main (for example "national security" anyone?)...and the other factor seems to be some pissiness about not being able to determine more about the overall nature of this bill, which comes out in the various whining statements about "being frozen out." so the calculation is obvious: abstain, complain and hope that it fails, because the positioning is geared toward that...

it's been a long-standing republican/populist conservative tic to be incapable of distinguishing partisan interests from national interests. narcissism is the word, i believe.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

tecoyah

It seems....that was simply the right thing to do. If you never try, you have no reason to complain something didn't happen, they tried, got rebuffed, and hopefully just go on with what needs to be done. The Republican party seems uninterested in helping the repair of what we must deal with (in no small part thanks to them), so they are quickly becoming irrelevant.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

dippin

I have a lot of respect for conscientious conservatives and libertarians who stand firm on an issue out of principle. I have zero respect for the current republican party. So after 8 years where they added over 5 trillion dollars to the national debt, and over 32 trillion dollars in future government liabilities, they decide to go all out to block a measure that is 1/3 tax cuts 2/3s spending in what is likely to become officially the worst recession in 70 years? How about McCain using certain programs as talking points and examples of waste in this bill when these programs were actually a part of his own platform during the campaign?



Now, returning to the issue at hand:

Business Cycle Expansions and Contractions

Check the average duration of recessions pre and post the great depression and the appearance of Keynes.

dksuddeth

it's pretty easy to label them as 'do nothings' when they don't go along with a plan they feel won't work. what i find amusing is that the liberals and republicans are mighty fine with wasteful spending to 'stimulate' an economy, even though it never works in the long run, just bicker about what the priorities for that wasteful spending should go to.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

shakran

You forgot something. Remember that for nearly 8 years, when W was in office, they also said criticism of the sitting president during a time of war is unpatriotic. Yet Cheney, Rove, and Limbaugh, arguably the most visible and loudest voices of the Republican party have been having a wonderful time criticizing the hell out of Obama. The rest of the Republicans have failed utterly to accuse them of being un-Ameriacan. The only logical conclusion we can reach from these facts combined with their assertion, is that the Republican party is un-American.

Either that or they're a pack of lying bastards who say something different every week and expect us not to notice. . .

filtherton

Well, there is a certain portion of the American populace who has a very strong psychological interest in not noticing. I mean, the Republicans Party is the only thing standing in between the collective throat of the American people and the boot of Socialism that is the Obama administration. Never mind that a solid majority of Americans elected to put that boot of Socialism in place.

matthew330

No I think the republicans said burning effigies of sitting president during a time of war might be unpatriotic, or going to a foreign country and apologizing for being American might be unpatriotic, or insisting that the sitting president is the worlds biggest terrorist might be unpatriotic, or suggesting that the sitting president sent thousands of young Americans to war because he personally wanted their oil might be unpatriotic, or maybe comparing him to an ape in both looks and intelligence might be unpatriotic.

In the eyes of the screaming left, this is behavior can be summed up with one of the millions of their oh so clever bumper sticker:

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"

But now that the screaming left is in power, which I was sure would chill them out a lil bit, this is evidently no longer the case and real criticism gets them all worked up. I guess I can conclude that they are a pack of lying bastards who say something different every week and expect us not to notice.

"Never mind that a solid majority of Americans elected to put that boot of Socialism in place."

Yes, with the help of Shakran and his colleagues who are stunned at the suggestion that there might be some bias in the media.

dippin

Let me see if I got this straight: saying the president is a closet socialist who is making the US look like the USSR-> totally ok?

And where is this left "screaming" about criticisms to the president? Or where is the "real criticism" from republicans?

Im no democrat, but some people seem to live in make believe worlds with little resemblance to reality.

matthew330

... oh yeah - just a couple other things that those crazy Amuuricin republicans (sorry if that's misspelled, I meant it like you guys do when you get all excited and refer to us) might have thought were unpatriotic: calling people that kidnap and behead people that are trying to help them freedom fighters, making movies about killing the sitting president, reacting to that movie as if it were a "dream come true" unpatriotic.

Shit I could go on all night.
-----Added 14/2/2009 at 11 : 30 : 38-----
Let me see if I got this straight: saying the president is a closet socialist who is making the US look like the USSR-> totally ok?

Yes

And where is this left "screaming" about criticisms to the president? Or where is the "real criticism" from republicans?

See three posts above you.

Im no democrat, but some people seem to live in make believe worlds with little resemblance to reality.

speaks for itself

Baraka_Guru

You mean the criticism from Dick "Obama Likes Terrorists More Than America" Cheney, Karl "Mischaracterized Quotations" Rove, and Rush "I Hope He Fails" Limbaugh?

I hope not.

What do you mean, exactly?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

filtherton

You must have been too busy to notice when Michelle Bachman (R-MN) called for an investigation into certain congressional members of the Democratic Party for being anti-American. She insinuated that Obama was anti-American too. Of course she "misspoke" which is another way of saying that she accidentally didn't lie (just like Jerry Falwell "misspoke" when he blamed 9/11 on America's acceptance of homosexuals). Whoopsie!! How Embarrassing!!

Nobody is denying that the media is biased. You're naive if you think it's biased left or right-- it's biased towards the status quo, and it's biased towards making money.

But you're right, it must be the media-- it's not like the average American had any reason to question the leadership and credibility of the Republican Party that had essentially run this country into the ground during the previous 8 years.

Alas, if only the Republican Party had some way to get their message out. If only there was some way for them to completely dominate political talk radio on the AM band. If only there were a couple of 24 hour cable news networks which would repeat Republican talking points verbatim. If only they could rely on one 24 hour cable news network to consistently give them favorable coverage under nearly every circumstance.

Matthew, I can only hope (and I say this with the utmost sincerity) that the conservative viewpoint can somehow begin find its way to the masses without being tainted by those evil, Shakran-esque liberal elites.

matthew330

Let's take Rush's "i hope he fails" quote that has gotten the left, yourself included, evidently all worked up:

I got a request here from a major American print publication. "Dear Rush: For the Obama [Immaculate] Inauguration we are asking a handful of very prominent politicians, statesmen, scholars, businessmen, commentators, and economists to write 400 words on their hope for the Obama presidency. We would love to include you. If you could send us 400 words on your hope for the Obama presidency, we need it by Monday night, that would be ideal." Now, we're caught in this trap again. The premise is, what is your "hope." My hope, and please understand me when I say this. I disagree fervently with the people on our side of the aisle who have caved and who say, "Well, I hope he succeeds. We've got to give him a chance." Why? They didn't give Bush a chance in 2000. Before he was inaugurated the search-and-destroy mission had begun. I'm not talking about search-and-destroy, but I've been listening to Barack Obama for a year-and-a-half. I know what his politics are. I know what his plans are, as he has stated them. I don't want them to succeed.

If I wanted Obama to succeed, I'd be happy the Republicans have laid down. And I would be encouraging Republicans to lay down and support him. Look, what he's talking about is the absorption of as much of the private sector by the US government as possible, from the banking business, to the mortgage industry, the automobile business, to health care. I do not want the government in charge of all of these things. I don't want this to work. So I'm thinking of replying to the guy, "Okay, I'll send you a response, but I don't need 400 words, I need four: I hope he fails." (interruption) What are you laughing at? See, here's the point. Everybody thinks it's outrageous to say. Look, even my staff, "Oh, you can't do that." Why not? Why is it any different, what's new, what is unfair about my saying I hope liberalism fails? Liberalism is our problem. Liberalism is what's gotten us dangerously close to the precipice here. Why do I want more of it? I don't care what the Drive-By story is. I would be honored if the Drive-By Media headlined me all day long: "Limbaugh: I Hope Obama Fails." Somebody's gotta say it.

Tell me how that critique compares even remotely to the examples i gave which you ignore.

And why does the opposition here ask me what I mean every single time? By no means am I a genious, are you all just playing stupid? The concept is not that hard to grasp, even if you disagree with it.

dippin

I didnt see any "screaming" about criticisms to the president. I saw Shakran and others in this thread noticing the double standard when it comes to criticizing the president, or when it comes to fiscal discipline.

Now, I am critical of things Obama has done, but I don't lose track of the fact that hes been there for less than a month, nor do I reverse positions when a different party is in place.

roachboy

the problem for conservatives is simple. they had 8 years in power. every last aspect of their ideology has been blown to hell by their own actions. the worst thing that could have happened for conservatives, as it turned out, was to have power.

at the most optimistic, they now have a brand identity problem.
but at a more interesting level, they have a cognitive problem.

and what has the right been doing in the face of this cognitive problem?
well, faced with the implosion of their own ideology, but seemingly unable to adapt, those heroes of free thinking have ave decided to do what cognitive problems typically seem to require--they run away. they've retreated to a fantasy world in which things still make sense in the way they used to seem to make sense. this is obvious from their collective decision to simply repeat the same line as before and ignore the fact that it is that line, that ideology, that produced the realities that have pulverized their ideology.

it's called denial.

so i see no reason at all to continue taking conservatives seriously.

of course they are free to keep talking and to say what they want, just as we are all free to give names to our toasters and take those toasters to the beach with us and introduce our toasters to our friends and talk about our deep and meaningful relationships with our new toaster pals.

but sooner or later, you'd think that the right, which is all about personal responsibility when that responsibility is that of people who are not conservatives, would have to confront the disaster that their politics have created. strangely, i haven't seen that happen. there just seems to be a responsibility problem amongst conservatives. it must be the fault of "the left," whatever that is. the evil left prevents conservatives from owning up to the disaster that their politics have created. bad bad evil left. bad.
meet my new toaster pal.
his name is clyde.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

shakran

Giving you the chance to show that you know more than the neo-con talking points that are disseminated amongst the ranks, but which have no actual basis in reality. Should we stop?

When Kerry was running for president, we were told that it was unpatriotic of him to criticize Bush. He never advocated killing Bush. He never advocated kidnapping anyone (though, funny you should bring that up in light of Cheney/Rumsfeld's extraordinary rendition program which kidnapped American and Canadian citizens and sent them to Syria to have electrical shocks applied to their genitals). He simply said that Bush was wrong. And we were told that it was unpatriotic to say that the President is wrong. We were also, incidentally, told that the terrorists were trying their best to get Kerry elected, and that Kerry was helping to advance their cause.

The simple fact is that the Republicans will say anything to scare the American people into letting them rule. They don't care if it's true, false, unpatriotic, libelous, illegal, or immoral. They'll do it. And then when they get into power, they continue to lie through their teeth about everything under the sun, because when you get right down to it the Republican agenda is to widen as much as possible the gap between the ultra-rich elite and everyone else. They know that as soon as the public figures this out, their party is sunk, and therefore they have to spin fabrications left and right to cover it up.

matthew330

"When Kerry was running for president, we were told that it was unpatriotic of him to criticize Bush."

Page number please.
-----Added 15/2/2009 at 01 : 40 : 43-----
oh and roach, were you responding to me, or was that just another random mini-pulpit conservativeland preaching thing that I was a step for, but had nothing really to do with anything in particular? My post might not have been directly related to the OP, but it was at least directly related to another post in here

dippin

Ann Coulter? Zell Miller's keynote speech at the RNC? Swiftboat Veterans for truth? And way to ignore the Bachman reference above.

Not to forget Saxby Chambliss attacks on Max Cleland in 2002, as well...

matthew330

First - I wasn't asking you, so if you're gonna step in and speak for someone else, at least answer the question. When were you told it was unpatriotic to criticize bush?
Everything I've said has been ignored or answered with, "But bachman..." I don't know who she is, and that little discription was completely unimpressive, so don't get bent that I didn't respond directly to it.

....and I apologize for not responding to someone's fetish with religion and homosexuals, but i've heard it all before, it's also irrelevant and unimpressive. No point in berating me for not responding directly to that either

dippin

I wasnt told I was unpatriotic personally because the people that I hang out with are not that sort of people.
I've given you a list of several examples of people being called unpatriotic for going against Bush, and you still claim that the question wasn't answered?
Start prior to 2004, with Saxby Chambliss campaign against Max Cleland in 2002.
Then read pretty much everything written by Ann Coulter and Sean Hannitty
Then listen to Zell Miller's keynote speech at the RNC in 2004.
Then you come back and tell me that no one was accused of being unpatriotic for criticizing Bush or his policies. And this is just the list of more visible events. If we read the national review, the weekly standard of the writings of Bill Kristol we can find several more examples.

Baraka_Guru

I'm sorry; I guess I was mistaken. By "real criticism," I thought you were referring to something outside the realm of pop rhetoric.

Or are you referring to something further back than page 7 in the thread?

Seriously, I am not satisfied by anything you've posted recently. I don't see any criticism worth of political, intellectual, and logical consideration. Is it about the stimulus package? Is it about Obama's platform? Is it about Democratic or otherwise American liberalism in the backdrop of the current global economic and political climate? I don't know, because I don't see it. What I see is several people grasping at straws.

Now don't jump on me about this. Remember that I'm a Canadian, and I may not have been exposed to enough American media to have seen it. I asked you about this criticism because I've yet to see a reasonable measure and a reasonable tack. We are governed by a parliamentary tradition that thrives on political criticism, both inside and outside the government system itself. I have yet to see the Republicans do any such thing regarding the Obama administration yet.

Would you point me to or list some highlights?

Hint: I'm unconcerned about patriotism, if that's what your on about when it comes to "real criticism."

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

matthew: american conservatism is more interested in brand triage than in addressing the consequences of their own ideology implemented.

this is a significant aspect of reality:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/bu...l.html?_r=1&hp

in the face of this, what does the republican party and it's political/media apparatus offer?
more of the same horseshit that got us into this mess in the first place, combined with a delightful return to form from the clinton period.

faced with this, what does the right offer?
brand identity triage around the "stimulus package."

what is the content of this brand identity triage more broadly?
"this is stinky" and "i hope everything breaks".

what is your position in this thread?
you want to score a cheap rhetorical point. it's "content": WHO ARE YOU "LEFTISTS" TO TELL US THAT OUR EFFORTS TO SALVAGE OUR CONSERVATIVE BRAND ARE UNPATRIOTIC?

yeah, that's quite the triage operation you guys are doing.
keep it up.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

matthew330

Bakara, lets go back to the beginning - I was challenging this fucking retarded statement made by a poster here

"The only logical conclusion we can reach from these facts combined with their assertion, is that the Republican party is un-American.Either that or they're a pack of lying bastards who say something different every week and expect us not to notice. . ."

and guess what. You're not the one who said it, so I don't really care whether or not you're satisfied with it. Im unsatisfied with the responses of those who have chosen to respond directly to me. Let's summarize:

1. What do you mean? I don't get it, I don't get it, I don't get it. (This was you Bakara)
2. But republicans and preists and homosexuals, blah blah blah....
3. Way to skirt the issue and not respond to what I think is important.
4. Excuse me sir, you're responses are not worthy. (oh look, this was you too BAkara)
5. Matthew, you see conservativeland, this strange place that occupies this gap between your ears, is a cognitive effort in blah blah blah blah blah.
6. ANN COULTER! RUSH LIMBAUGH!


Dippin, where were you, the collective you - please don't be simpleminded, I never really thought anyone called you on the telephone and told you it was unpatriotic to criticize bush, where were you told it was unpatriotic to criticize bush.

Give me one quote where any of these people you mention said anything like this.

dippin

I've given you plenty of examples, but if you want to play dumb, let's go:
- zell miller during the 2004 rnc key note speech said that Kerry's criticisms of the Iraq war equated to letting France decide American foreign policy
- Ann Coulter has a book called treason. Before you say she is a fringe figure, she was a speaker at the last meeting of the RNC.
- Michelle Bachman, which I am sure you will ignore again.
- How about Bill O'reilly list of "un american" professors?

Of course, I am sure you are going to once again dismiss it all, say that they didnt really say what they said, blahblahblah...

dc_dux

Congresswoman Heather Wilson (R-NM) - Obama criticizing Bush and/or American policy is unpatriotic

YouTube - Wilson: Criticizing 'American Policy' Is Unpatriotic

YouTube - Wilson: Criticizing 'American Policy' Is Unpatriotic

Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann (R-MN) - liberals in Congress should be investigated for being un-American

YouTube - Michelle Bachmann accuses Congress of being un-American

YouTube - Michelle Bachmann accuses Congress of being un-American

It is the standard republican mantra.....wrap the flag around yourself and repeat..."dissent is unpatriotic"

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

matthew330

THank you, so noone can give an example of a republican saying its unpatriotic to criticize the president. Which is obvious because the left has certainly not felt the need to hold back over the last 8 years, as evidenced by my previous examples.

This is also an appropriate time to remind you, dippin, of another of Ann Coulters books - GUilty: Liberal "victims" and their assault America.

shakran

Do you have dc dux on ignore or something? He posted, an hour before your reply, a video of a republican congresswoman saying that Obama's criticism of Bush was unpatriotic. She is a republican. Your entire last post is therefore invalid based on actual facts which have been presented to you, and which you have ignored.

dksuddeth

lets clear something up first and foremost. conservatives did not have 'power' the last 8 years....neocons, or faux republicans, had power while conservatives were left wondering what the hell happened to the unnoticed co-opting of their party.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."