how palin happened. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

roachboy · 10-21-2008, 03:24 PM

here's an interesting article in what appears to be today's new yorker about the process and networkiness that resulted in mc-cain choosing palin as a running mate

The Political Scene: The Insiders: Reporting & Essays: The New Yorker

you can see that the story is not exactly like the mythology, and that palin is not exactly the "outsider" that she presents herself as being.

strangely, this process is not something i am bothered by in any way ---if anything, it makes sense of the choice and shows that palin is an ambitious person who figured out how to play the conservative network game to her advantage. but figuring out how to network effectively and being either a good choice tactically for vice president or being in any way qualified to actually be vice president are two very different things. but mostly, i oppose almost everything sarah palin stands for politically, and would oppose in the same way anyone who espoused these positions.

you'll notice maybe that the article dodges questions that still surround the vetting process--and that mc-cain had wanted to nominate leiberman, but was more or less told no by the party, which worried about a revolt from the far right/"social conservatives" because leiberman is pro-choice.

but one thing is sure--this choice did not come out of nowhere. the biggest single role seems to have been played by the national review...

but what do you make of this account?
does it have any effect on how you understand palin?

Willravel · 10-21-2008, 03:34 PM

It seems a thoughtful explanation, but ultimately it does boil simply down to what you said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

figuring out how to network effectively and being either a good choice tactically for vice president or being in any way qualified to actually be vice president are two very different things.

I believe I've understood her for a while now. From my perspective she's always been a creature of hubris and ambition, lacking the intellectual complexity or experience necessary to fulfill the role she covets. Palin and W. Bush are cast from the same mold.

guyy · 10-21-2008, 08:17 PM

I read this while taking a break from a paper someone sent me about time & language & all sorts of things.

Palin seemed more like a normal pol after reading this. Now that may make her a phony, but it's also somewhat reassuring in that it demonstrates that she can act in a rational, purposeful way -- at least when it concerns her career.

The article confirmed my suspicions about McCain. The guy is not in charge of his campaign. He's a figurehead already.

Amaras · 10-21-2008, 08:42 PM

Loved McCain 8 years ago.
He's sadly deteriorated into a Nixon-ish type buffoon.
As to Palin, this seems about right. Doesn't change my opinion.

dc_dux · 10-22-2008, 05:27 AM

Palin has become a drag on the ticket. I dont know how anyone in the McCain camp couldnt have seen that coming....and why in the hell didnt someone in the campaing do a better job of vetting.

She now has higher "negatives" than "positives" and by one poll, her selection as running mate is the number one reason why swing voters wont vote for McCain...not the economy or any other issue.

It was a "gimmick"" pick to placate the social conservative base and as far as it goes, it accomplished that.

What it also accomplished was to take away a key McCain argument against Obama...that Obama was too inexperienced and that McCain has demonstrated better judgement in his public life.
-----Added 22/10/2008 at 09 : 36 : 16-----
The latest non-story that will become a story (in the mode of John Edwards's $400 haircut that the Republicans salivated over) for the few days and distract the McCain campaign when they can least afford a distraction of any kind, is that since her selection as John McCain's running mate, the Republican National Committee has spent more than $150,000 on clothing and make-up for Palin, her husband, and even her infant son.

WTF, spending three times Joe the plumber's annual salary to dress her up? Do you think Joe and his wife (or small town "regular" Americans that she loves and relates to so much) shop at Saks Fifth Avenue or Neiman Marcus?

What is the McCain campaign staff thinking?

RNC shells out $150K for Palin fashion

flstf · 10-22-2008, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

The latest non-story that will become a story (in the mode of John Edwards's $400 haircut that the Republicans salivated over) for the few days and distract the McCain campaign when they can least afford a distraction of any kind, is that since her selection as John McCain's running mate, the Republican National Committee has spent more than $150,000 on clothing and make-up for Palin, her husband, and even her infant son.

WTF, spending three times Joe the plumber's annual salary to dress her up? What is the McCain campaign staff thinking?

RNC shells out $150K for Palin fashion

"What's the difference between a hockey mom and a pit bull?" she asked. " Lipstick."

That's a lot of lipstick.

Paq · 10-22-2008, 06:23 AM

AP: Alaska funded Palin kids' travel | KOMO News - Seattle, Washington | News

i didn't want to put this in a new thread, but she was expense accounting her kids, something the alaskan law does not allow......

just aggravating, and please don't give me the "she wanted to spend more time with her children" bc i'm sure joe the plumber and jane winebox want to as well.....plus, hte former gov never charged his children's travel to the state.

aceventura3 · 10-22-2008, 06:38 AM

A different perspective.

Quote:

By Thomas Sowell

Apparently there is something about Sarah Palin that causes some people to think of her as either the best of candidates or the worst of candidates. She draws enthusiastic crowds and provokes visceral hostility in the media.

The issue that is raised most often is her relative lack of experience and the fact that she would be "a heartbeat away from the presidency" if Senator John McCain were elected. But Barack Obama has even less experience-- none in an executive capacity-- and his would itself be the heartbeat of the presidency if he were elected.

Sarah Palin's record is on the record, while whole years of Barack Obama's life are engulfed in fog, and he has had to explain away one after another of the astounding and vile people he has not merely "associated" with but has had political alliances with, and to whom he has directed the taxpayers' money and other money.

Sarah Palin has had executive experience-- and the White House is the executive branch of government. We don't have to judge her by her rhetoric because she has a record.

We don't know what Barack Obama will actually do because he has actually done very little for which he was personally accountable. Even as a state legislator, he voted "present" innumerable times instead of taking a stand one way or the other on tough issues.

"Clean up the mess in Washington"? He was part of the mess in Chicago and lined up with the Daley machine against reformers.

He is also part of the mess in Washington, not only with numerous earmarks, but also as the Senate's second largest recipient of money from Fannie Mae, and someone whose campaign has this year sought the advice of disgraced former Fannie Mae CEO Franklin Raines, who was at the heart of the subprime crisis.

Why then the enthusiasm for Obama and the hostility to Sarah Palin in the media?

One reason of course is that Senator Obama is ideologically much closer to the views of the media than is Governor Palin. But there is more than that. There are other conservative politicians who do not evoke such anger, spite and hate.

Sarah Palin is the one real outsider among the four candidates for the presidency and vice-presidency on the Republican and Democratic tickets. Her whole career has been spent outside the Washington Beltway.

More than that, her whole life has been outside the realm familiar to the intelligentsia of the media. She didn't go to the big-name colleges and imbibe the heady atmosphere that leaves so many feeling that they are special folks. She doesn't talk the way they talk or think the way they think.

Worse yet, from the media's perspective, Sarah Palin does not seek their Good Housekeeping seal of approval.

Much is made of Senator Joe Biden's "experience." But Frederick the Great said that experience matters only when valid conclusions are drawn from it.

Senator Biden's "experience" has been a long history of being on the wrong side of issue after issue in foreign policy. He was one of those Senators who voted to pull the plug on financial aid to South Vietnam, which was still defending itself from Communist invaders after the pullout of American troops.

Biden opposed Ronald Reagan's military buildup that helped win the Cold War. He opposed the surge in Iraq last year.

Sarah Palin will not be ready to become President of the United States on the first day that she and John McCain take office. Nobody is.

But being Vice President is a job that can allow a lot of time for studying, and everything about Governor Palin's career says that she is a bright gal with her head on straight. The country needs that far more than it needs people with glib answers to media "gotcha" questions.

Whatever the shortcomings of John McCain and Sarah Palin, they are people whose values are the values of this nation, whose loyalty and dedication to this country's fundamental institutions are beyond question because they have not spent decades working with people who hate America. Nor are they people whose judgments have been proved wrong consistently during decades of Beltway "experience."

RealClearPolitics - Articles - Record vs. Rhetoric

roachboy · 10-22-2008, 06:53 AM

nice ace--did you actually look at the new yorker piece? it doesn't seem so, because it really is not about this question of qualifications in the abstract, nor is it about this tedious game of who gets to claim for themselves the ability to speak to or for "americans" whomever they are as a single entity....instead, the article is about the process whereby palin came to be in the position to get nominated in the first place. it's about the extent to which she worked and was worked by aspects of the social networks that underpin conservative politics. it's about the extent to which sarah palin is a regular politician doing the regular politician thing and not at all some "outsider" as she and the right claim.

so the piece referenced in the op is not an attack piece, ace. it's just about the way this story happened. that the facts of how the story happen undercut some claims that folk like you want to believe about palin is not a big concern of mine, but feel free to address the points if you like.

you say you want more interesting discussions---how about actually engaging with information that you do not control yourself? it'd be a step. unless by "interesting discussion" you mean "take my ultra-conservative premises as given."

asaris · 10-22-2008, 07:34 AM

Except the article you quote, ace, is itself quite flawed. I probably shouldn't let you troll me like this, but I'm bored...

Quote:

The issue that is raised most often is her relative lack of experience and the fact that she would be "a heartbeat away from the presidency" if Senator John McCain were elected. But Barack Obama has even less experience-- none in an executive capacity-- and his would itself be the heartbeat of the presidency if he were elected.

This is really beside the point. Running a campaign is executive experience, with Obama's campaign having a larger budget and more employees than the state of Alaska. It's not clear to me, either, that executive experience is necessary. And that argument cuts against McCain as well as Obama, since McCain has never been a governor or mayor either. Finally, I'm not sure what metric he's using to say that Obama has less experience than Palin. If we're only counting 'executive' experience, maybe I'll grant you that, but then McCain doesn't have any either. If we're using generally political experience, Obama has more experience than Palin, and at every step it's on a much larger stage.

Quote:

Sarah Palin's record is on the record, while whole years of Barack Obama's life are engulfed in fog, and he has had to explain away one after another of the astounding and vile people he has not merely "associated" with but has had political alliances with, and to whom he has directed the taxpayers' money and other money.

I don't know why he says Palin's record is 'on the record' while Obama's is 'engulfed in fog'. I know more about Obama's education, his work as a community organizer, and his time as a legislator than I know about Palin's stints in Wasilla and Juneau, and Palin's the one stonewalling a bi-partisan investigation, not Obama. Sowell mentions 'vile people', but doesn't name any. Probably because for any association he could raise, Obama could see him and raise him one. Ayers? I'll see your Ayers and raise you a Keating. Rev. Wright? I'll see your Wright and raise you a Hagee.

Quote:

Sarah Palin has had executive experience-- and the White House is the executive branch of government. We don't have to judge her by her rhetoric because she has a record.

First, being president is not like being governor of New York or California, much less like being governor of Alaska. And what kind of record does she have? Abuse of power? Cheating the state so her kids can travel? Feeling out the librarian on banning books? And, of course, McCain doesn't have executive experience either.

Quote:

We don't know what Barack Obama will actually do because he has actually done very little for which he was personally accountable. Even as a state legislator, he voted "present" innumerable times instead of taking a stand one way or the other on tough issues.

This is ridiculous. First, he didn't vote present innumerable times. He did so 129 times, 3 percent of his votes. Second, it's apparently a common practice in the Illinois legislature, and his record in this respect isn't unusual.

Quote:

He is also part of the mess in Washington, not only with numerous earmarks, but also as the Senate's second largest recipient of money from Fannie Mae, and someone whose campaign has this year sought the advice of disgraced former Fannie Mae CEO Franklin Raines, who was at the heart of the subprime crisis.

He talked with Raines once, on the phone. McCain's chief strategist was a lobbyist for Fannie Mae who was still taking money from them as late as this past summer.

Quote:

One reason of course is that Senator Obama is ideologically much closer to the views of the media than is Governor Palin. But there is more than that. There are other conservative politicians who do not evoke such anger, spite and hate.

The old canard about the liberal media? Palin as outsider? This is all just ridiculous. People are curious about Palin because, by and large, they've never heard of her before. So of course the media is going to try to give the public more information about her. Further down, he repeats the claim of 'gotcha' questions. Asking somebody what newspapers they read, or to name a SCOTUS decision they disagree with is not a 'gotcha' question. That's a softball, a question any political candidate ought to have a pat answer to.

Quote:

More than that, her whole life has been outside the realm familiar to the intelligentsia of the media. She didn't go to the big-name colleges and imbibe the heady atmosphere that leaves so many feeling that they are special folks. She doesn't talk the way they talk or think the way they think.

You mean she can't discuss policy on an adult level because she's never thought about it before and doesn't even have the vocabulary? Certainly not being a Harvard grad doesn't mean you're not smart, or not qualified to be vice-president. But the right has been trying to spin it as a positive thing, and I just don't see why that's the case. And it's not simply that she doesn't talk the way those big-name college grads talk. It's that she obviously hasn't thought much, if at all, about any national issues. Even her attempt to try and build a pipeline across Alaska has so far been unsuccessful.

Finally, I don't understand why Palin is supposed to represent the real America. Real americans come in all colors and opinions, and singling out a single subculture as being somehow 'really American' at best smacks of McCarthyism, bigotry, and parochialism. It's not like there's something special about being from Alaska that makes you a good person. I, living inside the Beltway, and my friend Katie the Socialist, and Adam the Media Executive, are just as much Americans as Joe the Plumber and Jessica the Farmer and Mike the Cop. And saying otherwise is distinctly un-American.

aceventura3 · 10-22-2008, 07:37 AM

I know Palin is a politician. I don't recall her ever saying she is not political or ambitious. I think the value of Palin is that she is an outsider and is being treated as an outsider. Your citation seems to suggest that perhaps she is not what she says she is. I also think she is a quick study and knows how to get what she wants. One major difference between her and Obama, in my view, is that see has a real track record that we all can look at. The behind the scenes information is go for late night reading, but the more important perspective in my view, is her record.
-----Added 22/10/2008 at 11 : 46 : 12-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by asaris

Except the article you quote, ace, is itself quite flawed. I probably shouldn't let you troll me like this, but I'm bored...

On one hand the New Yorker article suggest that she is a shrewd politician who quickly identified people who could help her become a VP candidate, she succeed at that among other things, and now are you suggesting her record of success is not really a record of success or does not matter?

asaris · 10-22-2008, 07:49 AM

I don't think success as a politician (by which I mean successful re-branding, that sort of thing) is any indication of potential success while in office. I don't think the sort of opportunism Palin showed (by switching from a far-right candidate running for mayor of Wasilla to a reform candidate running for Governor) is necessarily a bad thing; all long-term politicians have to do it to a great or lesser extent. But that's not really a record of success. And I'm wondering just what this record of success is supposed to be?

roachboy · 10-22-2008, 08:02 AM

there is an entirely circular sense in which there is a "record of success"---she was nominated to run as vp. she set out to "enter the big leagues" and she did it. most everything else is either routine stuff (you have to do something as governor) or re-branding.

$150 grand of new clothes can help toward that rebranding end:

Sarah Palin's new image cost Republicans $150,000 | World news | guardian.co.uk

beyond getting the republicans to pay for the clothes, i'm not sure i see the achievement.
hell, i could rebrand myself with that kind of cash behind me for clothes alone.
anyone could.

dc_dux · 10-22-2008, 08:05 AM

The clothes issue is amusing for someone who portrays herself as a "regular person" or "hockey mom"....but its this kind of statement from Palin that many voters find troubling...her complete lack of understanding of the role of the VP:

Quote:

In an interview with a local Colorado TV station, Palin said the vice president is "in charge of the United States Senate" and "can really get in there with the senators and make a lot of good policy changes."

The VP presides over the Senate (on very rare occasions in actuality) and votes in the case of a tie...thats it.

There is no role of "getting in there with the senators and making a lot of good policy changes."

WTF is she thinking? Has she ever read the Constitution?

Just one of many of her statements and policy positions that explains why a majority of swing voters say the Palin is the number one reason why the wouldnt vote for McCain

Poppinjay · 10-22-2008, 08:33 AM

Politico

Where the story originated. She's a Saks hockey mom.

They could dress her up in a dingo suit and she'd have about as much credibility.

snowy · 10-22-2008, 08:48 AM

One of the things that really, really bothers me about the article linked in the OP is how men talk about Sarah Palin. It's like they all have these massive hard-ons for her that they're trying to disguise as harmless crushes. Frankly, it's disgusting, but I think it's something Palin has tried to actively cultivate--look at the VP debate, with all that awful winking.

From the article:

Quote:

Kristol again pushed Palin when asked whom McCain should pick: “Sarah Palin, whom I’ve only met once but I was awfully impressed by—a genuine reformer, defeated the establishment up there. It would be pretty wild to pick a young female Alaska governor, and I think, you know, McCain might as well go for it.” On July 22nd, again on Fox, Kristol referred to Palin as “my heartthrob.” He declared, “I don’t know if I can make it through the next three months without her on the ticket.”

Quote:

Jay Nordlinger, a senior editor at National Review, had a more elemental response. In an online column, he described Palin as “a former beauty-pageant contestant, and a real honey, too. Am I allowed to say that? Probably not, but too bad.”

Derwood · 10-22-2008, 09:43 AM

I remember this guy (oh, about 8 years ago) who was a Washington outsider. He said he was going to change Washington, reach across the aisle, be a Uniter, not a Divider. I wonder how that all turned out....

Poppinjay · 10-22-2008, 09:48 AM

Hey, he also had executive experience! Things must be great.

aceventura3 · 10-22-2008, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

there is an entirely circular sense in which there is a "record of success"---she was nominated to run as vp. she set out to "enter the big leagues" and she did it. most everything else is either routine stuff (you have to do something as governor) or re-branding.

I think there are a few ways to look at the article you cited in the OP. One being an ambitious politician who is an outsider, taps in to the network and gets the nomination inspite of all of the traits criticized by the media. If she really lacked the sophistication that many suggest, I suppose they think she was just lucky or something?

Quote:

$150 grand of new clothes can help toward that rebranding end:

Sarah Palin's new image cost Republicans $150,000 | World news | guardian.co.uk

beyond getting the republicans to pay for the clothes, i'm not sure i see the achievement.

Not sure I get your point. Are you suggesting that the party is making an inappropriate or illegal use of campaign funds? Are you suggesting the amount spent on clothing is a legitimate campaign issue? Are we running out of ways to criticize Palin? What's next?
-----Added 22/10/2008 at 02 : 41 : 52-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood

I remember this guy (oh, about 8 years ago) who was a Washington outsider. He said he was going to change Washington, reach across the aisle, be a Uniter, not a Divider. I wonder how that all turned out....

People immediately accused him of stealing the election. Many "hated" him from then on. That is what happened.

Frosstbyte · 10-22-2008, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

One of the things that really, really bothers me about the article linked in the OP is how men talk about Sarah Palin. It's like they all have these massive hard-ons for her that they're trying to disguise as harmless crushes. Frankly, it's disgusting, but I think it's something Palin has tried to actively cultivate--look at the VP debate, with all that awful winking.

Oh, there is NO question that she's done everything she can to engender support based on the fact that she's a moderately attractive older woman. And you're right, it is disgusting. You can almost see the drool dripping off of those quotations.

Willravel · 10-22-2008, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

One of the things that really, really bothers me about the article linked in the OP is how men talk about Sarah Palin.

She's horribly arrogant, dishonest, and she actively tries to win votes by trying desperately to appear attractive. That's an ugly person. This man finds her simply revolting. I wouldn't touch her with an 11 foot pole for all the earmarks in Wasilla.

Still, Tina Fey has never looked better.

filtherton · 10-22-2008, 11:28 AM

I think it is difficult to pull off the middle class, waste-cutting everywoman persona when it costs $150,000 to dress you.

snowy · 10-22-2008, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

I think it is difficult to pull off the middle class, waste-cutting everywoman persona when it costs $150,000 to dress you.

Pretty much.

aceventura3 · 10-22-2008, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

I think it is difficult to pull off the middle class, waste-cutting everywoman persona when it costs $150,000 to dress you.

Since "dress" is an issue in this thread, how much has Obama spent on clothing?

I think a person who is "normal" one day and in the national spotlight the next, with an expectation of appearing a certain way everyday - has a higher urgency to invest in clothing. A person who has been in the national spotlight for a number of years may have invested the same amount or more just spread over a wider period of time. Am I to gather from some of the comments here and on MSNBC that you folks don't understand why an investment in clothing needed to be made and needed to be made by the McCain campaign?

filtherton · 10-22-2008, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Since "dress" is an issue in this thread, how much has Obama spent on clothing?

Has Obama claimed membership in the middle class? No? Well, then, it doesn't matter. Having money means you get to dress well. It also means you need to drop the "Dontcha know, I'm just like you" bullshit.

Quote:

I think a person who is "normal" one day and in the national spotlight the next, with an expectation of appearing a certain way everyday - has a higher urgency to invest in clothing. A person who has been in the national spotlight for a number of years may have invested the same amount or more just spread over a wider period of time. Am I to gather from some of the comments here and on MSNBC that you folks don't understand why an investment in clothing needed to be made and needed to be made by the McCain campaign?

Maybe I just don't watch enough E!, but I think that clothing appropriate for serving as the governor of Alaska would also probably be appropriate for campaigning for a VP slot. Why would a fiscal conservative spend so much money on expensive nice clothes when normal nice clothes would probably suffice?

I know you're frequently swayed by interesting questions, ace, so here's one: If she become VP, are the taxpayers going to be on the hook for her extravagant tastes?

asaris · 10-22-2008, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

People immediately accused him of stealing the election. Many "hated" him from then on. That is what happened.

Nope. Most of the resentment against W. doesn't come from the spurious accusation that he stole the election. If the next four/eight years had gone differently, it'd just be an interesting footnote in history, studied mainly in con law classes on federalism. But when 9/11 happened, instead of using the opportunity to unite the country, he decided to engage in foolish adventurism in Iraq, using lies and propaganda to convince a slim majority that it was necessary. If instead of acting like a partisan hack, or a petulant boy, he had exhibited leadership, his reputation would be much different.

As far as what Obama is spending on fashion, I don't know. But here's a picture of his shoes, which he's already had resoled once.

http://wonkette.com/403705/meanwhile-barack-obama-walks-holes-in-his-shoes-then-re-soles-them

And the reason it's an issue is that when something similar came up with a Democrat (see, John Edwards' $400 haircut, George Stephanopolous), the Republicans howled. So it's a bit disingenuous of them to be defending this sort of thing now.

Frosstbyte · 10-22-2008, 12:23 PM

That's a dead link for me, btw, asaris.

asaris · 10-22-2008, 12:25 PM

Sorry. I'm not sure what the problem is -- I'll change the link to the wonkette article I saw the picture at. (Yes, I know wonkette is not an unbiased source. That's why I didn't link to it initially. But a picture is a picture, right?)

Edit above finished. Let me know if there's still problems.

smooth · 10-22-2008, 12:33 PM

the 150K is not an issue to me.
sure, it's hard to make the joe the plumber argument when you just blew 4x his yearly salary on clothes.
but that said, when my wife started complaining about the 5K on hair and makeup, I reminded her that if someone gave her 5K she would know exactly where to spend it and not get much for it, when all is said and done. I'd guess a hollywood hairstylist and a quick jaunt through saks would get you approx. a good haircoloring, style, and the basics in makeup.

I've never personally shopped at Sak's, but that's because I couldn't not because I wouldn't want to.
I imagine she got a week or two worth of clothing.
I can't think of anything more upwardly, white woman mobile than taking a blank check and buying some fancy clothes and makeup...so I can't imagine bashing her for doing what any middle class person would do in a similar situation if they didn't have the option to pay their bills with the same check.

Just because most of us have to dress like a million bucks for our best job interviews, but do it with a JC Penny wardrobe, doesn't mean that we wouldn't *want* to dress up in Sak's suits if someone else was footing the bill. I just think this particular criticism is going to fall on deaf ears, and it's borderline hypocritical for most people to even bring it up because I think you'd have to be extremely idealistic to pass that opportunity up...too idealistic.

roachboy · 10-22-2008, 12:43 PM

filtherton and asaris already said more or less what i was thinking about this pseudo-question.

i don't consider it a big deal, ace---but i do think it's kinda funny. mostly because, if you sniff the air close to your monitor, maybe you smell a bit of char. that's palin's "outsider" claim after it burned up.

to be clear, if her politics were not so lunatic--as they are in my view--i wouldn't care about this stuff at all---if anything, i would probably find the account of her wending her way through the conservative patronage network a bit reassuring----but the fact is that her politics are nutty and the "outsider" nonsense is of a piece with those nutty politics. and it's conservative political discourse that ties identity to political positions so tightly. so in a sense, watching the outsider persona burn is watching the nutty positions that are wrapped up in it burn a little as well.

snowy · 10-22-2008, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smooth

the 150K is not an issue to me.
sure, it's hard to make the joe the plumber argument when you just blew 4x his yearly salary on clothes.
but that said, when my wife started complaining about the 5K on hair and makeup, I reminded her that if someone gave her 5K she would know exactly where to spend it and not get much for it, when all is said and done. I'd guess a hollywood hairstylist and a quick jaunt through saks would get you approx. a good haircoloring, style, and the basics in makeup.

I've never personally shopped at Sak's, but that's because I couldn't not because I wouldn't want to.
I imagine she got a week or two worth of clothing.
I can't think of anything more upwardly, white woman mobile than taking a blank check and buying some fancy clothes and makeup...so I can't imagine bashing her for doing what any middle class person would do in a similar situation if they didn't have the option to pay their bills with the same check.

Just because most of us have to dress like a million bucks for our best job interviews, but do it with a JC Penny wardrobe, doesn't mean that we wouldn't *want* to dress up in Sak's suits if someone else was footing the bill. I just think this particular criticism is going to fall on deaf ears, and it's borderline hypocritical for most people to even bring it up because I think you'd have to be extremely idealistic to pass that opportunity up...too idealistic.

I'm an upwardly mobile white woman who has shopped at Saks (for cosmetics, that's right, I paid $20 once for a tube of Lancome mascara--once), and I can't say that if someone gave me $150,000 I would drop it all on clothing, haircuts, and whatnot at Saks and Neiman Marcus. I've been in both stores and find them horrendously overpriced. I can get knock-offs that look identical for less elsewhere. Quite frankly, I'm more likely to shop at REI, and I still don't see myself spending that much--ever. Don't get me wrong--I splurge from time to time, but that much $$$ is more than a LIFETIME of splurges. The average outfit Palin is buying would cost between $3000-5000 (excluding shoes and accessories). There's no way in hell I would ever spend that much money on a single outfit, even if I had the wherewithal to do so. There are more important things in life. If someone offered me that much $$$, I'd buy a house.

To me, the $150,000 for Palin's clothing illustrates a MASSIVE disconnect between the Republican party and regular people.

roachboy · 10-22-2008, 12:57 PM

no=one actually believes that palin or anyone else who is of the political class in the united states is economically a "regular person" do they? such claims are all about making signifiers, generating a compelling illusion. but there are a host of ways to go about this, and centering your candidacy on claims to *be* a "regular person" as if it was that "fact" that legitimated the claims themselves, made them seem somehow not nuts but reasonable, as if being a "regular person" means that you can and even should hold nutty political positions--that's a particular choice, a particular tactical choice. and it is a bad tactical choice.

that said, if some dude wanted to give me 150 grand for a clothing spree so i could more like a "regular person" on camera, i would do my level best to spend every dime of that money. and i would go for chanel. nothing says "hockey mom" quite the way chanel does.

i don't hold the spree against palin as a human being--i think it's more problematic given how "sarah palin everyperson" operates as a brand.

smooth · 10-22-2008, 12:59 PM

I was pretty sure I made the distinction in my post between spending one's own money and spending money someone gave you with stipulations on where you can spend it...ah yes, right here:

Quote:

I can't think of anything more upwardly, white woman mobile than taking a blank check and buying some fancy clothes and makeup...so I can't imagine bashing her for doing what any middle class person would do in a similar situation if they didn't have the option to pay their bills with the same check.

so it sounds like you agree with the gist of what I said, that it's perfectly normal for women to spend shittons of money on luxuries, but that you would spend 150K on a house...which I'm pretty certain the RNC wasn't indicating was in the cards.

maybe you'd only buy $20 mascara if the RNC handed you a blank check for 150K and told you to get some new clothes at Sak's and then give them 147,000 back unspent, but that would be weird. I certainly would respect you for doing that, but I wouldn't knock you for spending it either.

yeah, roachboy, I agree with you on the theoretical points, I'm just saying that any argument she's over the top in this respect isn't going to gain any traction from people who aren't already there.

right now, it's the feature story on hardball, which I find even more ridiculous than the fact that it happened. I guess that's my point. If Chris Matthews had you on there, roachboy, and you guys were hammering out this interesting branding discussion...well then that'd be different than talking about it as a problem in and of itself

aceventura3 · 10-22-2008, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

filtherton and asaris already said more or less what i was thinking about this pseudo-question.

i don't consider it a big deal, ace---but i do think it's kinda funny. mostly because, if you sniff the air close to your monitor, maybe you smell a bit of char. that's palin's "outsider" claim after it burned up.

to be clear, if her politics were not so lunatic--as they are in my view--i wouldn't care about this stuff at all---if anything, i would probably find the account of her wending her way through the conservative patronage network a bit reassuring----but the fact is that her politics are nutty and the "outsider" nonsense is of a piece with those nutty politics. and it's conservative political discourse that ties identity to political positions so tightly. so in a sense, watching the outsider persona burn is watching the nutty positions that are wrapped up in it burn a little as well.

So, Palin is a hypocrite. Which do you think is the real Palin, the one to spend $150,000 on clothing or a rather unsophisticated "hockey mom"?

Oh, and is it possible that she was not responsible for the decision to spend $150,000 on clothing? Is it possible that as a VP candidate that she is following the directions given to her? do you think she has been spending a lot of time shopping since the convention - in addition to running for office, being governor, being a mother of a baby, sending her son to war, being a wife, dancing on SNL, impossing her will regarding troopergate, getting to become a Washington insider, etc, etc, etc. gee - I can see why she has not been reading Supreme Court cases.

filtherton · 10-22-2008, 01:09 PM

What kind of maverick needs to be told how to dress?

Frosstbyte · 10-22-2008, 01:12 PM

I think the entire premise of this thread is that the real Sarah Palin is clearly the one to spend $150k on clothing. Assuming that everything in that story is true, she's a politician at heart with a solid side helping of celebrity, and all of her unsophisticated hockey mom stuff is just hockey mom stuff. That doesn't make her any better informed generally or politically, but I think it's pretty apparent that she's not anything remotely close to an everyman.

I don't even know what to do with your list of talking points that compromises the second half of your post. I think the point about her accepting the clothes (whether or not SHE actually bought them) has been made. The rest of that is completely irrelevant.

aceventura3 · 10-22-2008, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

What kind of maverick needs to be told how to dress?

There can only be one lead dog in a pack. But they are all dogs. Feel free to substitute maverick for dog if you want. I like dogs, I understand them. If Palin was my VP, she would do what I ask. If I were hers, I would do what she asks. We would have order, as opposed to the relationship between Biden and Obama. do they even like each other?

Willravel · 10-22-2008, 01:21 PM

Oh no, not the wolf-related illustrations again.

filtherton · 10-22-2008, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

There can only be one lead dog in a pack. But they are all dogs. Feel free to substitute maverick for dog if you want. I like dogs, I understand them. If Palin was my VP, she would do what I ask. If I were hers, I would do what she asks. We would have order, as opposed to the relationship between Biden and Obama. do they even like each other?

Somehow I suspect that, "John McCain and I are dogs," won't have the same resonance on the campaign trail.

roachboy · 10-22-2008, 01:32 PM

ace--i'm not interested in the question of whether palin is or is not a "hypocrite"--i don't know her as a human being, and i don't particularly care about it. what interests me is the disconnect between the story in that article and the "outsider" business in her persona--the clothing business is secondary to me--i just find it to be funny, that's all.

like i said, if some guy gave me 150k to go shopping for clothes, i'd do my level best to spend every dime of it---but i can't imagine the idea behind that spree would be to set me up as "everyman."

the contradictions in all this are self-evident, ace.
hypocrisy is not an issue at the personal level--what's more at issue are self-defeating, stupid tactics undertaken by the mc-cain campaign shaped by, and feeding into, a totally retrograde kind of identity politics. you reap what you sow.

o yeah--and about 20 years of republican-dominated media making a Big Fucking Deal out of this kind of lint when it served their political advantage.
can't forget that shit.

10-21-2008, 03:24 PM	#1 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	how palin happened. here's an interesting article in what appears to be today's new yorker about the process and networkiness that resulted in mc-cain choosing palin as a running mate The Political Scene: The Insiders: Reporting & Essays: The New Yorker you can see that the story is not exactly like the mythology, and that palin is not exactly the "outsider" that she presents herself as being. strangely, this process is not something i am bothered by in any way ---if anything, it makes sense of the choice and shows that palin is an ambitious person who figured out how to play the conservative network game to her advantage. but figuring out how to network effectively and being either a good choice tactically for vice president or being in any way qualified to actually be vice president are two very different things. but mostly, i oppose almost everything sarah palin stands for politically, and would oppose in the same way anyone who espoused these positions. you'll notice maybe that the article dodges questions that still surround the vetting process--and that mc-cain had wanted to nominate leiberman, but was more or less told no by the party, which worried about a revolt from the far right/"social conservatives" because leiberman is pro-choice. but one thing is sure--this choice did not come out of nowhere. the biggest single role seems to have been played by the national review... but what do you make of this account? does it have any effect on how you understand palin? __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

10-21-2008, 08:42 PM	#4 (permalink)
Amaras Junkie Location: At my daughter's beck and call.	Loved McCain 8 years ago. He's sadly deteriorated into a Nixon-ish type buffoon. As to Palin, this seems about right. Doesn't change my opinion. __________________ Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state. -Noam Chomsky Love is a verb, not a noun. -My Mom The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later. -Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

10-22-2008, 05:27 AM	#5 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	Palin has become a drag on the ticket. I dont know how anyone in the McCain camp couldnt have seen that coming....and why in the hell didnt someone in the campaing do a better job of vetting. She now has higher "negatives" than "positives" and by one poll, her selection as running mate is the number one reason why swing voters wont vote for McCain...not the economy or any other issue. It was a "gimmick"" pick to placate the social conservative base and as far as it goes, it accomplished that. What it also accomplished was to take away a key McCain argument against Obama...that Obama was too inexperienced and that McCain has demonstrated better judgement in his public life. -----Added 22/10/2008 at 09 : 36 : 16----- The latest non-story that will become a story (in the mode of John Edwards's $400 haircut that the Republicans salivated over) for the few days and distract the McCain campaign when they can least afford a distraction of any kind, is that since her selection as John McCain's running mate, the Republican National Committee has spent more than $150,000 on clothing and make-up for Palin, her husband, and even her infant son. WTF, spending three times Joe the plumber's annual salary to dress her up? Do you think Joe and his wife (or small town "regular" Americans that she loves and relates to so much) shop at Saks Fifth Avenue or Neiman Marcus? What is the McCain campaign staff thinking? RNC shells out $150K for Palin fashion __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 10-22-2008 at 05:50 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

10-22-2008, 06:23 AM	#7 (permalink)
Paq Junkie Location: South Carolina	AP: Alaska funded Palin kids' travel \| KOMO News - Seattle, Washington \| News i didn't want to put this in a new thread, but she was expense accounting her kids, something the alaskan law does not allow...... just aggravating, and please don't give me the "she wanted to spend more time with her children" bc i'm sure joe the plumber and jane winebox want to as well.....plus, hte former gov never charged his children's travel to the state. __________________ Live. Chris

10-22-2008, 06:53 AM	#9 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	nice ace--did you actually look at the new yorker piece? it doesn't seem so, because it really is not about this question of qualifications in the abstract, nor is it about this tedious game of who gets to claim for themselves the ability to speak to or for "americans" whomever they are as a single entity....instead, the article is about the process whereby palin came to be in the position to get nominated in the first place. it's about the extent to which she worked and was worked by aspects of the social networks that underpin conservative politics. it's about the extent to which sarah palin is a regular politician doing the regular politician thing and not at all some "outsider" as she and the right claim. so the piece referenced in the op is not an attack piece, ace. it's just about the way this story happened. that the facts of how the story happen undercut some claims that folk like you want to believe about palin is not a big concern of mine, but feel free to address the points if you like. you say you want more interesting discussions---how about actually engaging with information that you do not control yourself? it'd be a step. unless by "interesting discussion" you mean "take my ultra-conservative premises as given." __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

10-21-2008, 08:17 PM	#3 (permalink)
guyy Addict Location: Cottage Grove, Wisconsin	I read this while taking a break from a paper someone sent me about time & language & all sorts of things. Palin seemed more like a normal pol after reading this. Now that may make her a phony, but it's also somewhat reassuring in that it demonstrates that she can act in a rational, purposeful way -- at least when it concerns her career. The article confirmed my suspicions about McCain. The guy is not in charge of his campaign. He's a figurehead already.

10-22-2008, 07:49 AM	#12 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	I don't think success as a politician (by which I mean successful re-branding, that sort of thing) is any indication of potential success while in office. I don't think the sort of opportunism Palin showed (by switching from a far-right candidate running for mayor of Wasilla to a reform candidate running for Governor) is necessarily a bad thing; all long-term politicians have to do it to a great or lesser extent. But that's not really a record of success. And I'm wondering just what this record of success is supposed to be? __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

10-22-2008, 08:02 AM	#13 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	there is an entirely circular sense in which there is a "record of success"---she was nominated to run as vp. she set out to "enter the big leagues" and she did it. most everything else is either routine stuff (you have to do something as governor) or re-branding. $150 grand of new clothes can help toward that rebranding end: Sarah Palin's new image cost Republicans $150,000 \| World news \| guardian.co.uk beyond getting the republicans to pay for the clothes, i'm not sure i see the achievement. hell, i could rebrand myself with that kind of cash behind me for clothes alone. anyone could. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

10-22-2008, 08:33 AM	#15 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	Politico Where the story originated. She's a Saks hockey mom. They could dress her up in a dingo suit and she'd have about as much credibility. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

10-22-2008, 09:43 AM	#17 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	I remember this guy (oh, about 8 years ago) who was a Washington outsider. He said he was going to change Washington, reach across the aisle, be a Uniter, not a Divider. I wonder how that all turned out....

10-22-2008, 09:48 AM	#18 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	Hey, he also had executive experience! Things must be great. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

10-22-2008, 11:28 AM	#22 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I think it is difficult to pull off the middle class, waste-cutting everywoman persona when it costs $150,000 to dress you.

10-22-2008, 12:23 PM	#27 (permalink)
Frosstbyte Winter is Coming Location: The North	That's a dead link for me, btw, asaris.

10-22-2008, 12:25 PM	#28 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	Sorry. I'm not sure what the problem is -- I'll change the link to the wonkette article I saw the picture at. (Yes, I know wonkette is not an unbiased source. That's why I didn't link to it initially. But a picture is a picture, right?) Edit above finished. Let me know if there's still problems. __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

10-22-2008, 12:33 PM	#29 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	the 150K is not an issue to me. sure, it's hard to make the joe the plumber argument when you just blew 4x his yearly salary on clothes. but that said, when my wife started complaining about the 5K on hair and makeup, I reminded her that if someone gave her 5K she would know exactly where to spend it and not get much for it, when all is said and done. I'd guess a hollywood hairstylist and a quick jaunt through saks would get you approx. a good haircoloring, style, and the basics in makeup. I've never personally shopped at Sak's, but that's because I couldn't not because I wouldn't want to. I imagine she got a week or two worth of clothing. I can't think of anything more upwardly, white woman mobile than taking a blank check and buying some fancy clothes and makeup...so I can't imagine bashing her for doing what any middle class person would do in a similar situation if they didn't have the option to pay their bills with the same check. Just because most of us have to dress like a million bucks for our best job interviews, but do it with a JC Penny wardrobe, doesn't mean that we wouldn't want to dress up in Sak's suits if someone else was footing the bill. I just think this particular criticism is going to fall on deaf ears, and it's borderline hypocritical for most people to even bring it up because I think you'd have to be extremely idealistic to pass that opportunity up...too idealistic. __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

10-22-2008, 12:43 PM	#30 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	filtherton and asaris already said more or less what i was thinking about this pseudo-question. i don't consider it a big deal, ace---but i do think it's kinda funny. mostly because, if you sniff the air close to your monitor, maybe you smell a bit of char. that's palin's "outsider" claim after it burned up. to be clear, if her politics were not so lunatic--as they are in my view--i wouldn't care about this stuff at all---if anything, i would probably find the account of her wending her way through the conservative patronage network a bit reassuring----but the fact is that her politics are nutty and the "outsider" nonsense is of a piece with those nutty politics. and it's conservative political discourse that ties identity to political positions so tightly. so in a sense, watching the outsider persona burn is watching the nutty positions that are wrapped up in it burn a little as well. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

10-22-2008, 12:57 PM	#32 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	no=one actually believes that palin or anyone else who is of the political class in the united states is economically a "regular person" do they? such claims are all about making signifiers, generating a compelling illusion. but there are a host of ways to go about this, and centering your candidacy on claims to be a "regular person" as if it was that "fact" that legitimated the claims themselves, made them seem somehow not nuts but reasonable, as if being a "regular person" means that you can and even should hold nutty political positions--that's a particular choice, a particular tactical choice. and it is a bad tactical choice. that said, if some dude wanted to give me 150 grand for a clothing spree so i could more like a "regular person" on camera, i would do my level best to spend every dime of that money. and i would go for chanel. nothing says "hockey mom" quite the way chanel does. i don't hold the spree against palin as a human being--i think it's more problematic given how "sarah palin everyperson" operates as a brand. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

10-22-2008, 01:09 PM	#35 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	What kind of maverick needs to be told how to dress?

10-22-2008, 01:12 PM	#36 (permalink)
Frosstbyte Winter is Coming Location: The North	I think the entire premise of this thread is that the real Sarah Palin is clearly the one to spend $150k on clothing. Assuming that everything in that story is true, she's a politician at heart with a solid side helping of celebrity, and all of her unsophisticated hockey mom stuff is just hockey mom stuff. That doesn't make her any better informed generally or politically, but I think it's pretty apparent that she's not anything remotely close to an everyman. I don't even know what to do with your list of talking points that compromises the second half of your post. I think the point about her accepting the clothes (whether or not SHE actually bought them) has been made. The rest of that is completely irrelevant.

10-22-2008, 01:21 PM	#38 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Oh no, not the wolf-related illustrations again.

10-22-2008, 01:32 PM	#40 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	ace--i'm not interested in the question of whether palin is or is not a "hypocrite"--i don't know her as a human being, and i don't particularly care about it. what interests me is the disconnect between the story in that article and the "outsider" business in her persona--the clothing business is secondary to me--i just find it to be funny, that's all. like i said, if some guy gave me 150k to go shopping for clothes, i'd do my level best to spend every dime of it---but i can't imagine the idea behind that spree would be to set me up as "everyman." the contradictions in all this are self-evident, ace. hypocrisy is not an issue at the personal level--what's more at issue are self-defeating, stupid tactics undertaken by the mc-cain campaign shaped by, and feeding into, a totally retrograde kind of identity politics. you reap what you sow. o yeah--and about 20 years of republican-dominated media making a Big Fucking Deal out of this kind of lint when it served their political advantage. can't forget that shit. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 10-22-2008 at 01:34 PM..