snowy

Seriously.

And we saw how well "big stick" diplomacy worked for Bushco, though they largely forgot the "speak softly" part. Somehow I have a feeling McCain and crew would forget to "speak softly" as well.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Tully Mars

Not true? He didn't sing bomb bomb Iran?

And he knows how to handle these situations? Like he and Bush did in Iraq?

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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

kurty[B]

That's right Tully? Iraq is a "perfect" example of managing a war in modern time.

__________________
In the Absence of Information People Make Things Up.

StellaLuna

A cool hand at the tiller?

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Screw tradition!

kurty[B]

Alright, the Cold War question!
-----Added 7/10/2008 at 10 : 24 : 30-----
"Maybe"? What kind of answer is that?

__________________
In the Absence of Information People Make Things Up.

smooth

he's talking about petro-dollars.

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"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Rekna

I know he wasn't talking about Iraq but the irony is still there...

smooth

I know you didn't do this, but I have this lingering suspicion that when politicians start throwing the 700 billion figure around that a lot of people think of the bail out package. I think some others might think about taxes.

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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Tully Mars

Alright-

Who won?

I'd say Obama. Esp. after the fact checkers get done with this one.

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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

abaya

Yeah, I did not appreciate that image of him in my mind, at that moment...

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Rekna

Obama won again but i'm biased.

Derwood

We need to cancel the 3rd debate. Neither guy has anything new to say, neither answer the questions. Just put up a split screen with a bullet-pointed list of each candidate's talking points and leave that on the screen for an hour

Cynthetiq

the winner is:

the drinkers who used "my friend"

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Rekna

Don't you mean the emergency rooms near these guys?

dc_dux

I had the image of his hand on the "tiller" of the three planes he crashed as a result of bad judgement as a Navy pilot (and the fourth that he flew into electrical wires causing a blackout in Spain).

The hand may or may not be steadier (probably not at 72 yrs of age) ...but I havent seen much evidence of better judgement.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Paq

my drinking words list:
Here's the word list.
Maverick
Understand that
My friends
Unemployed
More of the same
Bush
Reagan
Bipartisan
Bailout
Federal Reserve
Wall Street
That's a great question
Lobbyist
CEO
Depression
Recession
Any gratuitous reference to Tennessee
Any mention of anything having to do with pork

i gotta go pee now....

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Chris

ratbastid

add: "I know how". John McCain Knows How, man.

YaWhateva

I really liked Keith Olbermann's response right before 9/11 this year to John McCain saying he knows how to get the terrorists.

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“If the Americans go in and overthrow Saddam Hussein and it's clean, he has nothing, I will apologize to the nation, and I will not trust the Bush administration again.” - Bill O'Reilly

"This is my United States of Whateva!"

ASU2003

Obama's healthcare plan sounds better. It is a sensible solution that can work. I have a hard enough time going through 5 different plans that range from full coverage, a HRA (Health Reimbursement Account...HSA setup in favor of the employer), to going out on my own and getting a HSA on my own. I've done them all, and it's a good thing I've never been really sick. But, I could imagine the nightmare if I had to go out and pick from 50 different plans setup by shady fly-by-night companies and the big health insurers that offer a low premium, but skimp on the benefits when you need them. Obama was right to say that there would be states that would lower requirements in order to have all of the major health insureres move there. The healthcare companies would work together to push through laws and get tax incentives for all the new jobs and whatever it would bring to their state. Kind of like Delaware and North Dakota for banking right now. I do think that small businesses (and big businesses...Wal-Mart) should be fined if they don't provide health insurance benefits. It is unfair competition. If the employee opts out, then it's another story. But having a business model that undercuts your competition by not paying the health insurance for your employees is wrong.

I liked the format and I thought the questions were good. I liked the one about what should Americans sacrifice and setting a deadline for social security reform. But, I have heard a lot of this other stuff that they have said before. And the time wasn't as big of a deal that Brokaw made it. Let them talk for as long as necessary to get their ideas out, just make sure that they get equal time.

And McCain was right to not attack Obama's character with the people in his past. McCain did pretty well on a few of his responses to energy independence, battery electric cars, and working on all of the tasks a the same time.

flstf

I guess the "surge" is the same as reducing crime by putting more policemen on the streets. It probably won't take the bad guys long to set up shop again once we stop surging. More police = less crime, our military intelligence must have thought long and hard to come up with this strategy.

The problem with these surges is running out of troops to surge with. I guess Obama is advocating a kind of mini-surge in Afghanistan by using some of the excess surge from Iraq. Maybe we should have surged Vietnam with more soldiers and won that one too. I wonder if we will soon be surging Iran?

Paq

i thought mccain's snarky comment about "i didn't hear mention of the size of the fine" was followed by a big sigh from obama. It was just completely offputting.

Also, anyone notice how mccain left immediately afterwards while obama stayed around for about 20 minutes to meet the people at the debate.

btw, townhall format: blah.

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YaWhateva

I thought Obama's stance was that a surge like Iraq would not work. Maybe I'm mistaken.

__________________
“If the Americans go in and overthrow Saddam Hussein and it's clean, he has nothing, I will apologize to the nation, and I will not trust the Bush administration again.” - Bill O'Reilly

"This is my United States of Whateva!"

westothemax

"I'm not going to telegraph my punches" lol

jewels

Repetitive, condescending and annoying as all hell. McCain sure didn't sound like the expert on foreign policy and I think everyone saw right through his performance.

How does he get by introducing the same phony accusations every time he speaks when they've been refuted and fact-checked? Go take a nap, would ya?

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tisonlyi

Lots of talk about reform and budget cuts, but no word, no questions over the single biggest, pointless drain on the US budget and nation:

Military Spending.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Tully Mars

Anyone else notice how Obama spent nearly 30 mins. "working" the room. While McCain left immediately? What was that about? Hope he's not headed back to solve our financial problems. He does that again we'll all be standing in soup lines.
-----Added 8/10/2008 at 07 : 00 : 04-----
McCain did bring this up. Said he took on a defense contractor over a contract on planes, I think it was planes.

Don't think he was telling it exactly the way it happened but it's too early here and I haven't had enough coffee yet to go fact check. Besides I'm down to if he or Palin says it- it's a lie until I find out different. Just easier that way. He and her are both repeating lies that were disproved weeks ago.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

dc_dux

I was surprised he brought this up ....he rarely mentions it for good reason.

He did help block a DoD contract with Boeing when he was chair of the Armed Services Committee...and there may have been some questionable contracting practices (so whats new).

What he failed to mention was that his chief adviser on the issue at the time was the lobbyist (a former Republican congressman) for the competing bidder, Northrop Grumman/Airbus....and McCain wrote several letters to the DoD on their behalf. The lobbyist later became his campaign co-chairman.

Just as it is hard for him to make a compelling case about his oversight of Fannie and Freddie when he has several of their former lobbyist on his campaign staff or as money bundlers.

Each time that both sides of these "fighting corruption and lobbyists interest" mantra are revealed...it turns out he had a lobbyist close by his side and he loses more of his "maverick" image.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Paq

i can't fathom why mccain keeps bringing up fannie and freddie with his own ties to them. That is just beeeeggggggiiiinnnngggg for trouble for his campaign people.

I also wonder why mccain was in such a rush to get out of there. If he was racing back to washington, then he had like 19 hrs or so in order to beat the last time he 'rushed' back to washington to save the economy....

I also can't understand why mccain keeps harping on things that have been disproven time and again.

anyway...polls showing obama won handily yet again

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Chris

Tully Mars

Please Sen McCain I'm begging you, I'm pleading with you. Don't work any more on saving our economy. My 401K can't take much more.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

roachboy

well, the right has a Problem, which is simply that on matters pertaining to the economy, the dominant worldview is being pulverized at a very high speed---but at the same time, that same worldview is an element amongst others in the language that enables communication with the various factions that comprise the right coalition. so you have a strange little theater of therapeutic avoidance of cognitive dissonance which is itself being eaten away by the world that other people know about--so it has to be inflected as itself plus something else----i know what to do!---what is that?---something like what we were doing, but different from it!---what do you mean?---my friends, everything that's happening is a function of external contaminants--greed, excess, communism, terrorists---everything that's happening is caused by discrete outside agents penetrating the otherwise coherent world that is capitalism as we understand it--so the something else that i would do is the same as before except i would fight the contaminants!

o. ok.

it's a surreal time.
things don't make sense to alot of folk for the same basic reason---what's going on around them outstrips their framework.
the right has another Problem, which is that it's shared conception of Leadership involves Action Figure principles, which tends to force folk into some kind of decisive-looking position when a Problem emerges that is so Obvious that the usual mechanisms of avoidance get flooded. so mc-cain has to look Decisive, has to issue statements quickly--which, given the situation his particular ideological frame is moving through, is really not a good idea.

obama is not entirely outside of this either, but he has a more structurally oriented way of thinking, is working with a platform that is more amanebale to that, and is also not boxed in by this need to twitch into Action Figure Positions straight away. and he is simply not burdened with the absurd problem of trying to demonstrate that he is the same but not the same as the bush administration.

surreal times make for surreal theater. generally, the theater that you know about in, say, 10 years is made up of far fewer works than are circulating in real time==that's because many such bits of theater suck to sit through.

or something.

similar problem with military spending--given the way the campaigns are boxed in around stupid shit like Appearing Manly and Strong and Loving Israel No Matter What It Does So Very Very Very Much, you simply cannot expect a rational discussion about either military spending or the middle east or any connections between them. it's a degenerate state of affairs. i think in the end, if you think military spending is obscene at its current levels--and i do--then it makes sense to vote for the candidate who you think MIGHT do something about it as over against the candidate whom you KNOW will not.

or you can vote nader.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Derwood

according to the CNN post-game show, McCain didn't stick with his campaign's plan. They didn't want him going on and on about earmarks, they wanted him to separate himself from Bush/Cheney, etc. but missed the mark on many of those goals.

abaya

In this sense, he reminds me of the fictional Cornelius Fudge character from the Ministry of Magic (Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix)... or perhaps the Wizard of Oz, desperately flipping all those switches and shouting into his microphone from behind the green curtain, not realizing that Toto has pulled the curtain back for all to see.

Yeah, McCain has become such a caricature of himself that he reminds me more of characters from children's stories than a real politician.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

roachboy

Pollster.com: Debate Reaction: Town Hall Debate

a snapshot of the meaningless polls regarding this debate.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

abaya

Sidenote: WTF is this uproar about Obama's pronunciation of "Pakistan" and "Taliban"?? He pronounces them CORRECTLY, but it appears that some Americans think they're right (with their nasal "a") and he's wrong and/or "elitist," "un-American," etc (of course). God forbid the President of the United States of America should pronounce foreign names the right way! (More examples here.)

They really ARE getting desperate, aren't they?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Willravel

Very good point.

It's FebRuary. Not Febuary. If that makes me an "elitist", then hand me the chardonnay and a copy of the New Yorker.

abaya

Or it might just make you sound more Icelandic (since here, the word is "Febrúar," and I've started enunciating that first R as a result in the English version, too).

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

ktspktsp

So by definition, it's an un-American thing

westothemax

Agree - it seemed like he was overly coached and didn't know what else to say besides what was scripted for him. McCain at various points seemed extremely nervous and awkward. I thought it was funny when he got a little too close to people in the audience, making them look really uncomfortable. I thought it was a good move on his part to shake that one veteran's hand, though.

This was my first time watching a debate on CNN and the instant poll thing was really leaning toward Obama, and you could see a few audience members negative reactions to the things McCain was saying (shaking their head, etc).

Paq

dude...i'm so there.

I just had a 20 minute discussion with someone about how obama actually pronounces the words correctly.

there is no nasally 'aaaaaa' sound in Pakistan. none...nooooone

so grab the chardonnay, pass the ny times and get on board....

oh
and what the hell is 'flyover country'?

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abaya

I guess in some circles it means the Area Between the Two Coasts (middle America) that gets "flown over" when people travel between LA and NYC, Philly and Seattle, etc.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran