Palin: Iraq war is "a task that is from God" - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

aceventura3 · 09-05-2008, 08:42 AM

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Originally Posted by abaya

1) Excluding WWII (since we can agree on that), can you give me at least several examples of wars with an unquestionable distinction of right vs. wrong?

US Civil War.

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2) What "common moral standards" are you referring to? I know of many, many different moral standards across the world, and even within the singular boundary of the United States... and even just a handful of them would beg to differ with you on what constitutes their "common moral standard."

Most people in the world get along. Differing cultures, religions, economies, etc. don't change the fundamentals of being human. For example there are common views on murder.

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2) What "history" do you refer to? The one written by the winners or the losers (to keep it simple)? It's really just not that simple to talk about what "history" shows anyone, without providing at least the author, the date, the context in which that history was written, because all of those things affect "history" as it is written and interpreted. People who study "history" professionally know this--they get PhD's in it--and they still don't always know what "history" shows us--it's just too damn subjective, especially when it comes down to moral issues of "right" vs. "wrong."

Again, I don't know where to go with this "what history" question. Perhaps, we just do the best we can with the information available.
-----Added 5/9/2008 at 12 : 47 : 52-----

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Originally Posted by Cynosure

Exibit A: The re-election of George W. Bush and his administration, in 2004.

Bush did not change anyone's mind about the Iraq war.

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Even then, the growing concesus (at least, among the inquiring and the informed) was that the Iraq War was founded on misinformation, and that it was perhaps wrong. But an awful lot of people who re-elected Bush disregarded all that and continued to support the Bush administration and its war, while others who re-elected him thought along the lines of, "Well, I disagree with this war, but I continue to support our troops, and I believe Bush is the one who can get us out of this mess."

The intel regarding WMD was not the determining reason we invaded Iraq. the reason was because Saddam was a threat.

I don't understand the argument of being against the war, but not wanting to end it because of the troops. That is not logical to me.

abaya · 09-05-2008, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

I am sorry, but if you don't think knowledge of the past is real, "shows" us, gives us an opportunity not to repeat errors, I don't know what to say. I study history, I try to understand it, I try to learn from it, I try to apply the lessons from history. If I am unique in that regard, the so be it.

You might want to pick up on roachboy's qualifications before you make those kinds of statements.

So you think the US Civil War was based on right vs. wrong? Let me guess why: you think slavery was the sole reason behind the war?

Also, I asked for "several" examples. Some non-US wars would be helpful for your argument... wars without pre-recorded moral superiority that has been passed down through 8th grade and 11th grade high school US History education (and yes, I taught 11th grade history, so I know where the indoctrination comes from).

"Most people in the world get along?" Really.

aceventura3 · 09-05-2008, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

That would make a good screenplay.
-----Added 5/9/2008 at 12 : 35 : 52-----
What facts are you basing these statements on?

I'd still like to hear your answer to my previous questions.

She served in some areas subject to conflict and violence:

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Agnes initially went to the Loreto Abbey in Rathfarnham, Ireland to learn English, the language the Sisters of Loreto used to teach school children in India.[11] She arrived in India in 1929, and began her novitiate in Darjeeling, near the Himalayan mountains.[12] She took her first religious vows as a nun on May 24, 1931. At that time she chose the name Teresa after Thérèse de Lisieux, the patron saint of missionaries.[13] She took her solemn vows on May 14, 1937, while serving as a teacher at the Loreto convent school in eastern Calcutta.[14][15]

Although Teresa enjoyed teaching at the school, she was increasingly disturbed by the poverty surrounding her in Calcutta.[16] A famine in 1943 brought misery and death to the city; and the outbreak of Hindu/Muslim violence in August 1946 plunged the city into despair and horror.[17]

Mother Teresa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

roachboy · 09-05-2008, 08:54 AM

ace--we could have this discussion, but i think it'd be a threadjack.
maybe i'll make another thread on the weekend to address it.
or you can.

aceventura3 · 09-05-2008, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

So you think the US Civil War was based on right vs. wrong? Let me guess why: you think slavery was the sole reason behind the war?

No. People fight wars for many reasons. Some Southerners fought the war for non-slavery related issues. At the end of the day, the question of slavery had to be resolved.

Quote:

Also, I asked for "several" examples. Some non-US wars would be helpful for your argument... wars without pre-recorded moral superiority that has been passed down through 8th grade and 11th grade high school US History education (and yes, I taught 11th grade history, so I know where the indoctrination comes from).

The Crusades. I think the aggression by the Europeans during these conflicts was wrong.

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"Most people in the world get along?" Really.

Yes. Most people love their families, go to work, laugh, dance, sing, etc. We have more in common than we have differences.

I am not sure what you want, it seems whatever, I give you will find something wrong or something missing. My views appear to be very different than yours on these issues.

flstf · 09-05-2008, 09:23 AM

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Originally Posted by Cynosure

In other words: a still, quiet voice in the back of your mind, and the belief that it's God talking to you, shouldn't be nearly enough to lead you into waging a war

She also said it was God's will that we build the pipeline. I wonder how she knows what God's will is? It is one thing to say that in your opinion you think God would be pleased if we do something and a whole other thing when you say it is his/her will. I thought God only talked to prophets and television preachers.

I think her religious and political beliefs are pretty clear by now and is what makes her the choice of the religious right, anti-abortion (even in rape and incest cases), book banning, teaching creation in science class, etc.. I don't think we should underestimate those who believe the Bible literally, close to where I live they opened a creation museum and have had to expand the parking lots due to large crowds.

host · 09-05-2008, 09:27 AM

I posted an excerpt from an interview of an extremely authoritive and knowledgable source on this problem of American christian fundementalism, in a post , five hours before this thread was started. Granted.....the problem was not linked to Sarah Palin....she is an nearly irrelevant symptom.... but the interview in my post describes how we got here.....the taking down of the wall between Jesus and our government..... how it hurts us, and the dire consequences that are already taking place because of it.

My post has one response...and the thread has entire 41 views. Must all problems now be framed around the idiot's pick of an even greater idiot?

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.....Let me make one final point about that missionizing impulse, and the way it transcends right and left. One reason we're in Iraq today is because, in the 1990s, the left was split on the question of American violence, the proper use of American power. It was split over the issue of what was called "humanitarian intervention." There are times, it was argued, when the forceful exercise of American power is necessary for the sake of humanitarian causes. Human rights, beginning in Jimmy Carter's day, became a new form of American religion. If conservatives go abroad speaking the language of freedom; liberals go abroad speaking the language of human rights. And if we have to destroy a nation so that it can exercise human rights, so be it. That's why, in the early days of the Iraq war, so many surprising people supported it.

The liberal embrace of humanitarian intervention is part of what set loose this new phenomenon of the Bush moment -- an explicit appeal to religious motivation in the exercise of American power. Since George W. Bush came to power, the religious right has been set free to use overt religious language, missionizing language that actually moves from "freedom" to "salvation," as a justification for American power. We cast ourselves against Saddam Hussein entirely in terms of a binary evil-versus-good contest. Bush's appeals to evil were a staple of his speechmaking from the earliest days of this war. The purpose of his war was, he told us, not just to spread democracy, but to end evil. You see what's happening. We've moved into specifically religious categories and that was all right in America. ..... -James Carroll Sept., 2007

abaya · 09-05-2008, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

ace--we could have this discussion, but i think it'd be a threadjack.
maybe i'll make another thread on the weekend to address it.
or you can.

Yeah, I'll chime on these topics if that thread gets started... I'm stepping into the car in about 2 minutes for a weekend trip away, so will see what's evolved when I get back.

Ace--don't worry, we most likely won't get anywhere with each other's opinions, and that's just par for the course around here. It's also why I need a trip away.

ottopilot · 09-05-2008, 09:28 AM

Inertia is often a blinding force.

host · 09-05-2008, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Yeah, I'll chime on these topics if that thread gets started... I'm stepping into the car in about 2 minutes for a weekend trip away, so will see what's evolved when I get back.

Ace--don't worry, we most likely won't get anywhere with each other's opinions, and that's just par for the course around here. It's also why I need a trip away.

Again.....it was "started"....hours ago.....all you need to do it to react to this:

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...... here's the thing that's important to acknowledge: If Americans are upset with the war in Iraq today, it's mainly because it failed. If we could have "ended evil" with this war, it would have been a good thing. It goes back to the joke you began with: If we have to destroy the world in order to purify it of evil, that's all right. It's the key to the apocalyptic mindset that Robert J. Lifton has written about so eloquently, in which the destruction of the Earth can be an act of purification. The destruction of Iraq was an act of purification. Even today, look at the rhetoric that's unfolding as we begin to talk about ending the war in Iraq. It's the Iraqis who have failed. They wouldn't yield on their "sectarian" agendas. These people won't get together and form a cohesive government. Now, we're going to let them stew in their own mess. We're going to withdraw from this war because they're not worthy of us.

That's the mainstream Democratic antiwar position! America is a city on a hill, exceptional; so, if we do it, by definition it must be virtuous. If we've gone to Iraq and all hell's broken loose, it may be a fiasco, but in origin it can't be our fault because we were motivated by good intentions.

Now, put all of that in the context of this astounding religious resurgence….....

-James Carroll Sept., 2007

ottopilot · 09-05-2008, 09:52 AM

I thought this was a thread questioning statements by Sarah Palin regarding what influences her decision-making. In the OP, it was in reference to invoking the will of GOD and war.

Tully Mars · 09-07-2008, 12:57 PM

I read stuff like this:

Quote:

ANCHORAGE, Alaska – Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin told ministry students at her former church that the United States sent troops to fight in the Iraq war on a "task that is from God."

And it makes me cringe.

Palin: Iraq war 'a task that is from God' - Yahoo! News

loquitur · 09-07-2008, 01:02 PM

I interrupt this thread to bring you the latest in high-class websites that have been brought to my attention: iwoulddosarahpalin.com!!

Carry on.

roachboy · 09-07-2008, 01:09 PM

wedge politics as usual. if you think palin is a far right nutjob, then it follows that she isn't talking to you, that you are not of the "us" she addresses or appeals to. her rhetoric is not about expanding the existing republican base-it is about mobilizing the christian right machine, the elaborate grass-roots organization based out of churches, now re-interpreted at political gears, which set up van pools and convince the faithful that "god" is a republican. so if you object to palin's belonging to a church that espouses the position that folk who are gay are so because of the sin in their heart and that they can be "cured"--she isn't talking to you. you are therefore the "Other" and should perhaps be alarmed at the possibilities of far right one-dimensional american backwater protestant militants having any hope at all of getting access to anything remotely like the executive branch of the federal government.

this is not about "god" in general, or whether it is acceptable for politico-types to have oligarchy-compatible religious beliefs: this is about a PARTICULAR understand of who this god character is, a PARTICULAR understanding of the bible, a PARTICULAR understanding of the relation between 2000 year old writings and action in the present. this is about extreme right-wing evangelical protestants for the most part--perhaps in some areas working in coalition with extreme right-wing charismatic catholics. this is about the organizational expression of the pentacostalist movement. this is not about christianity as a whole--and the folk who claim otherwise generally allow themselves to be duped by the rhetoric of this particular version of christianity, which claims for itself a monopoly on the category.

but i'll say this again: if it comes down to political machine vs, political machine, these people will win.
never underestimate what the christian coalition has put together over the past 30 years.

if sarah palin freaks you out, take that seriously and become mobilized yourself.

Tully Mars · 09-07-2008, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loquitur

I interrupt this thread to bring you the latest in high-class websites that have been brought to my attention: iwoulddosarahpalin.com!!

Carry on.

The first visitor comment on that site is-

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Safe Sex or Teenage Pregnancy?
One of the library books Gov. Palin tried to ban as mayor of Wasilla, Alsaka is "An Overview for Teens: Safe Sex 101" (written by two women, including a medical doctor). Ironically, her unwed teenage daughter gave birth to a baby in the past year.

Umm, which of her daughters gave birth in the past year?

Willravel · 09-07-2008, 01:52 PM

I keep wondering if "God" is just Cheney's nickname. Whenever an insane neocon claims to be getting directives from god, they just mean the veep.

dlish · 09-07-2008, 03:22 PM

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Originally Posted by ratbastid

Well, it's even worse in the context of what she's actually TALKING ABOUT.

To the Muslim residents of the middle east, suggestions that Western incursion into their lands and sovereignty is the divine will of a Christian god is a direct reference to the Crusades, and is deeply deeply offensive. This kind of talk is directly inflammatory, and she doesn't even know it.

Ratbastid - it really hasnt caught on yet here in the middle east yet exactly who the VP nomination for the republicans really is. i presume the media will catch on soon enough and the tide wil turn. i dont think anyone here wants a war mongerer as president, and the religious rhetoric that comes from Palin is disturbing. its unsettling that is McCain does drop dead, then Palin would have no problem picking up the standard and resuming gods war.

what i also did read from what she said was ' vote for me and god will look after you and get you jobs'.

i have no problem with religious people. i do have a problem with religious fanatics bearing their ideologies on others and manipulating it for their own personal gain!

on the other hand, we have Obama, who as much as i admire (from a celebrity level) doesnt seem to really have all that much for me to want to vote for him as an american.

if i were an american, id be scared shitless on the future of my country.
as a person living in the middle east albeit australian, id be scared shitless of the uncertain future of the region

Baraka_Guru · 09-07-2008, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

I keep wondering if "God" is just Cheney's nickname. Whenever an insane neocon claims to be getting directives from god, they just mean the veep.

That's old news, friend.

Voice Of God Revealed To Be Cheney On Intercom | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

* * * * *

I think ultimately the danger with the Neocon approach to this sort of thing is that they tend to gloss over their moral imperative through this sort of pseudo-religious interpretation of what a nation's leader is meant to do in the face of danger. It is an old-fashioned posturing. A kind that I would imagine was performed by leaders from the pre-Modern period. It's misleading and is meant to garner the support from the less sophisticated or ignorant listener.

No one in their right mind (both religious and non-religious) sees this kind of thing and thinks, Hey, yeah, God [or some ambiguous moral authority] does want us, America, to carry out these things against our enemies. Bullshit. Even from a religious point of view this is tragically Old Testament.

It's deplorable that any politician from a nation as wealthy, influential, and powerful as the U.S. would use this kind of language in public, especially when it's intentional and directed. This is outright manipulative and one of the worst kinds of rhetoric.

Then there's that pesky separation of church and state issue....

I'm not saying this Palin issue from the OP is a major problem, but what is a problem is that we need to be keeping tabs on what is being said in public to the public when it comes to this sort of thing. America is still a very religious nation.

Plan9 · 09-07-2008, 03:43 PM

Palin: "Iraq war is a task that is from God."

So... which magical superhero is she talking about?

(watches at US Army switches from IBAs to suicide bomber belts)

Tully Mars · 09-07-2008, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

Ratbastid - it really hasnt caught on yet here in the middle east yet exactly who the VP nomination for the republicans really is. i presume the media will catch on soon enough and the tide wil turn. i dont think anyone here wants a war mongerer as president, and the religious rhetoric that comes from Palin is disturbing. its unsettling that is McCain does drop dead, then Palin would have no problem picking up the standard and resuming gods war.

what i also did read from what she said was ' vote for me and god will look after you and get you jobs'.

i have no problem with religious people. i do have a problem with religious fanatics bearing their ideologies on others and manipulating it for their own personal gain!

on the other hand, we have Obama, who as much as i admire (from a celebrity level) doesnt seem to really have all that much for me to want to vote for him as an american.

if i were an american, id be scared shitless on the future of my country.
as a person living in the middle east albeit australian, id be scared shitless of the uncertain future of the region

As a US citizen sometimes it's odd living and interacting with another culture. My neighbor lady, who was thrilled when a woman was picked to be a VP nominee, was at my door early this morning. She was holding a newspaper. She told me there must be something wrong with the translation in her paper. Of course my ability to read and comprehend Spanish is extremely limited. She seemed pretty worked up and pointed to the paper and said "this paper says the woman who will be VPOTUS believes God told her to build a pipeline and that she should support the wars in the middle east." After I explained that the woman in question has a good chance to be the VP it's not a done deal. It will either be her or Joe Biden, an election will decide. We sat at my table and over coffee went point by point through her paper. She read and translated the article and I found google and yahoo sources in English to compare. Basically we found articles where Palin stated the wars and the pipeline were all "part of God's plans." She said "I thought once Bush was gone the world would be done with all this crazy "God told me to do it crap." I reminded her she was thrilled about Palin just a few days ago. She said "Yes, but that was before I found out she's a crazy person."

Willravel · 09-07-2008, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

That's old news, friend.

Voice Of God Revealed To Be Cheney On Intercom | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

+ 5 points for catching that.

jorgelito · 09-07-2008, 06:55 PM

I guess you could consider the Dalai Lama a dangerous religious fanatical leader too.

Willravel · 09-07-2008, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

I guess you could consider the Dalai Lama a dangerous religious fanatical leader too.

Dude. Comon.

Baraka_Guru · 09-07-2008, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

I guess you could consider the Dalai Lama a dangerous religious fanatical leader too.

"You guess"? What do you mean by that, exactly?

I hardly think the actions and decisions of the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government in Exile are remotely similar to those we see being made in Iraq.

The only thing dangerous about him is that he brings to light the injustices of a communist militaristic regime's expansionist policies. And the only thing fanatic about him is his unwavering drive to end war and suffering. Except I don't find that quite unreasonable. Difficult, yes.

The thing to remember about the former Tibetan government is that it had as an education budget—proportionately—what the U.S. currently has as a military budget. In hindsight maybe that would explain part of the problem with China and Tibet...not enough military...but Tibet isn't exactly the most accommodating place when it comes to standing armies.

ratbastid · 09-08-2008, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

I guess you could consider the Dalai Lama a dangerous religious fanatical leader too.

Only if you're China.

Tully Mars · 09-08-2008, 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Only if you're China.

Fanatic-

A person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, as for a cause.

The Dalai Lama doesn't seem like an unreasoning person to me.

dlish · 09-08-2008, 06:03 AM

i have a feeling that the dalai lama will become an icon of pop culture much the same way that che guevara has become a symbol of resistance.

both are freedom fighters. are both fanatics?

i think palin and che would be... would the dalai lama also fit this category?

ottopilot · 09-08-2008, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

i have a feeling that the dalai lama will become an icon of pop culture much the same way that che guevara has become a symbol of resistance.

both are freedom fighters. are both fanatics?

i think palin and che would be... would the dalai lama also fit this category?

Is Jeremiah Wright a fanatic? What influence does he have on Obama's decision making? This has been churned over and over. If the Obama/Wright connection does not worry the Palin objectors, then are we talking about partisan hypocracy rather than heart-felt concern regarding someone's "fanatical ideology"?.

Tully Mars · 09-08-2008, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopilot

Is Jeremiah Wright a fanatic? What influence does he have on Obama's decision making? This has been churned over and over. If the Obama/Wright connection does not worry the Palin objectors, then are we talking about partisan hypocracy rather than heart-felt concern regarding someone's "fanatical ideology"?.

In the one case the candidate listened to a fanatic then separated himself and clearly stated I do not believe these things.

In the other case the fanatic is the candidate.

roachboy · 09-08-2008, 06:41 AM

gee, otto, where's all the obsessive repetition about palin's membership in a church that imagines gay folk can be "converted" from being gay?

o wait: i know.
it's that there are two weights, so there are two measures.

make your line consistent or abandon it.

ottopilot · 09-08-2008, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

gee, otto, where's all the obsessive repetition about palin's membership in a church that imagines gay folk can be "converted" from being gay?

o wait: i know.
it's that there are two weights, so there are two measures.

make your line consistent or abandon it.

What are my inconsistencies? I'll be happy to clarify your misrepresentation of my point.

roachboy · 09-08-2008, 07:20 AM

i thought you were "interested" in church affiliations as a Problem and so would be "interested" in them across the board.
that way, you would not yourself be playing some tedious partisan game to complain about tedious partisan games.

jorgelito · 09-08-2008, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

i have a feeling that the dalai lama will become an icon of pop culture much the same way that che guevara has become a symbol of resistance.

both are freedom fighters. are both fanatics?

i think palin and che would be... would the dalai lama also fit this category?

Che is a terrorist monster. Che is a symbol of terrorism/fascism and now, thanks to all those t-shirts etc, he is a symbol of capitalism.

The Dalai Lama is a mixed bag. I like the fellow but sometimes he is not the saint the west so eagerly believes.

But you are right in one regard. Che, Dalai Lama are indeed pop icons like Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Castro et al. I'm waiting for the Warhol collage of all of them.

roachboy · 09-08-2008, 03:13 PM

uh first of all i don't know anywhere outside the most fever-dream addled quadrants of the american ultra-right that a single thing you said about che guevara is right, jorgelito. you obviously know nothing about the guy. guevara was alot of things, and there were problems with and about some of those things--but not one of them is even close to the attributes you list.

the iconography is bothersome, an indication of the hollowing-out of the past and it's replacement with a superficial duplicate. but at the same time, the famous image of che is a cool image.

ottopilot · 09-08-2008, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

i thought you were "interested" in church affiliations as a Problem and so would be "interested" in them across the board.
that way, you would not yourself be playing some tedious partisan game to complain about tedious partisan games.

If peter piper picked a peck of pickl... what are you talking about?

Che ... geez ... a.k.a. psycho racist murdering wing-nut?

roachboy · 09-08-2008, 04:31 PM

otto:

you haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about. debating you about che guevara is of no interest.

so how about we keep this televisual and easy. why don't you answer the question i posed to you earlier?

Charlatan · 09-08-2008, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

uh first of all i don't know anywhere outside the most fever-dream addled quadrants of the american ultra-right that a single thing you said about che guevara is right, jorgelito. you obviously know nothing about the guy. guevara was alot of things, and there were problems with and about some of those things--but not one of them is even close to the attributes you list.

the iconography is bothersome, an indication of the hollowing-out of the past and it's replacement with a superficial duplicate. but at the same time, the famous image of che is a cool image.

Thanks for posting this so I didn't have to.

jorgelito · 09-08-2008, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

uh first of all i don't know anywhere outside the most fever-dream addled quadrants of the american ultra-right that a single thing you said about che guevara is right, jorgelito. you obviously know nothing about the guy. guevara was alot of things, and there were problems with and about some of those things--but not one of them is even close to the attributes you list.

the iconography is bothersome, an indication of the hollowing-out of the past and it's replacement with a superficial duplicate. but at the same time, the famous image of che is a cool image.

I beg to differ. Che was a genocidal murderer, a maniac of epic proportions. I find it repulsive that thousands of naive white liberal college students adopt his image as a symbol of...whatever it is they think he stands for. Cool image? About as cool an image as Hitler or Mao. And please, stop talking down to me and condescend to me. If you step off your high horse pedestal for a minute, perhaps you could see the truth.

Willravel · 09-08-2008, 05:31 PM

Che incited revolution against what had become oligarchy from extreme class separation. A lot of people were hurt of killed, but what he stood for wasn't that bad. The maniac thing is wrong, though, Jorg. Seriously.

Tully Mars · 09-08-2008, 06:03 PM

It's all a matter of perspective. One man's freedom fighter is anothers terrorist. Right now I bet if you did a survey you'd find more people world wide consider Bush Jr. a terrorist and a war criminal then consider him a force or voice for democracy.

09-05-2008, 08:54 AM	#44 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	ace--we could have this discussion, but i think it'd be a threadjack. maybe i'll make another thread on the weekend to address it. or you can. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-05-2008, 09:28 AM	#49 (permalink)
ottopilot let me be clear Location: Waddy Peytona	Inertia is often a blinding force. __________________ "It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

09-05-2008, 09:52 AM	#51 (permalink)
ottopilot let me be clear Location: Waddy Peytona	I thought this was a thread questioning statements by Sarah Palin regarding what influences her decision-making. In the OP, it was in reference to invoking the will of GOD and war. __________________ "It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

09-07-2008, 01:09 PM	#54 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	wedge politics as usual. if you think palin is a far right nutjob, then it follows that she isn't talking to you, that you are not of the "us" she addresses or appeals to. her rhetoric is not about expanding the existing republican base-it is about mobilizing the christian right machine, the elaborate grass-roots organization based out of churches, now re-interpreted at political gears, which set up van pools and convince the faithful that "god" is a republican. so if you object to palin's belonging to a church that espouses the position that folk who are gay are so because of the sin in their heart and that they can be "cured"--she isn't talking to you. you are therefore the "Other" and should perhaps be alarmed at the possibilities of far right one-dimensional american backwater protestant militants having any hope at all of getting access to anything remotely like the executive branch of the federal government. this is not about "god" in general, or whether it is acceptable for politico-types to have oligarchy-compatible religious beliefs: this is about a PARTICULAR understand of who this god character is, a PARTICULAR understanding of the bible, a PARTICULAR understanding of the relation between 2000 year old writings and action in the present. this is about extreme right-wing evangelical protestants for the most part--perhaps in some areas working in coalition with extreme right-wing charismatic catholics. this is about the organizational expression of the pentacostalist movement. this is not about christianity as a whole--and the folk who claim otherwise generally allow themselves to be duped by the rhetoric of this particular version of christianity, which claims for itself a monopoly on the category. but i'll say this again: if it comes down to political machine vs, political machine, these people will win. never underestimate what the christian coalition has put together over the past 30 years. if sarah palin freaks you out, take that seriously and become mobilized yourself. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 09-07-2008 at 01:13 PM..

09-07-2008, 03:43 PM	#59 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Palin: "Iraq war is a task that is from God." So... which magical superhero is she talking about? (watches at US Army switches from IBAs to suicide bomber belts) __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

09-07-2008, 01:02 PM	#53 (permalink)
loquitur Junkie Location: NYC	I interrupt this thread to bring you the latest in high-class websites that have been brought to my attention: iwoulddosarahpalin.com!! Carry on.

09-07-2008, 01:52 PM	#56 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I keep wondering if "God" is just Cheney's nickname. Whenever an insane neocon claims to be getting directives from god, they just mean the veep.

09-07-2008, 06:55 PM	#62 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	I guess you could consider the Dalai Lama a dangerous religious fanatical leader too. __________________ "The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter

09-08-2008, 06:03 AM	#67 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	i have a feeling that the dalai lama will become an icon of pop culture much the same way that che guevara has become a symbol of resistance. both are freedom fighters. are both fanatics? i think palin and che would be... would the dalai lama also fit this category? __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

09-08-2008, 06:41 AM	#70 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	gee, otto, where's all the obsessive repetition about palin's membership in a church that imagines gay folk can be "converted" from being gay? o wait: i know. it's that there are two weights, so there are two measures. make your line consistent or abandon it. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-08-2008, 07:20 AM	#72 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i thought you were "interested" in church affiliations as a Problem and so would be "interested" in them across the board. that way, you would not yourself be playing some tedious partisan game to complain about tedious partisan games. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-08-2008, 03:13 PM	#74 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	uh first of all i don't know anywhere outside the most fever-dream addled quadrants of the american ultra-right that a single thing you said about che guevara is right, jorgelito. you obviously know nothing about the guy. guevara was alot of things, and there were problems with and about some of those things--but not one of them is even close to the attributes you list. the iconography is bothersome, an indication of the hollowing-out of the past and it's replacement with a superficial duplicate. but at the same time, the famous image of che is a cool image. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-08-2008, 04:31 PM	#76 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	otto: you haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about. debating you about che guevara is of no interest. so how about we keep this televisual and easy. why don't you answer the question i posed to you earlier? __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-08-2008, 05:31 PM	#79 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Che incited revolution against what had become oligarchy from extreme class separation. A lot of people were hurt of killed, but what he stood for wasn't that bad. The maniac thing is wrong, though, Jorg. Seriously.

09-08-2008, 06:03 PM	#80 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	It's all a matter of perspective. One man's freedom fighter is anothers terrorist. Right now I bet if you did a survey you'd find more people world wide consider Bush Jr. a terrorist and a war criminal then consider him a force or voice for democracy. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club