UKking

Do you believe that in politics, families are off limit?

Or is a family a reflection of the candidate?


Historically (at least as far as I've ever seen), family has never been off-limits to politics.... Mostly because politics does not have immutable rules or ethics. Obama's recent assertion that it does is admirable, if not realistic. If our politicians want to act like family is off-limits for the moment, I'm just fine with that. I'd 100% support we act like that for as long as we can. Even if the lines drawn are rather arbitrary. At least it's something.

Just don't be surprised when family matters eventually does become an issue. Someone will someday find something somewhere and spin it in such a way that we become convinced that a family matter is a critical decision point.

Personally, I'm a tad jaded and pragmatic when it comes to candidates. If we had a candidate that was 100% shithead, but would rock our political socks off, working political miracles, I'd have a hard time not voting for him. I guess I just don't see politicians as role models, maybe that's the difference. Family reflects on a person, I guess I just don't care as much about the person anymore.

Case and point: I'm sure George W Bush is a really neat guy, and we all know how that turned out...

ottopilot

And let's not forget Jimmy Carter.... plus he had Billy to suffer.

Unless the relative takes the stump for the candidate, relatives should be hands-off (especially children). Once a relative inserts themselves in to the process... then have at it.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

ratbastid

I think a person's family says a lot about them. I think attacking family members is pretty low, but observing the state of the family gives some insight into the character of the candidate.

The Obama family is just beautiful--those daughters are so self-possessed and adorable, and Barack and Michelle are clearly very much in love. I know there have been some prepared moments lately where we were supposed to get that impression, but I have seen that in off-the-cuff moments since he first started running, and I believe it to be genuinely the case. Tells me a lot about Barack Obama as a man, right there.

The current instance of family stuff is Sarah Palin's 17-year-old daughter's pregnancy. While it's obvious that the girl is going through a lot and has a lot to deal with, I don't think it's off limits to point out the failure of abstinence-only education as illustrated by this case. It has been an abysmal failure, withholding from our children the information they need to keep themselves safe. The out of control teen pregnancy rate (trending back up after many years of decline--but never dipping below #1 in the industrialized world) is a significant problem with conservative policy that is highlighted by this right-winger's unfortunate daughter's situation.

abaya

Yes. I don't think family should ever be attacked--but I do think that a candidate should have a "nothing to hide" attitude. If they do have something to hide, then it's going to reflect on their character (particularly within the nuclear family). How can a candidate's immediate family--including their choice of spouse and how they raise their children--NOT reflect the candidate, in some way or another? Consistency does matter, even if people are "human" and mess up. You cannot preach one way and then go the other, when it comes back to you.

I guess I'm of the opinion that if you can't keep your own house (marriage, kids) in order, why should you expect me to entrust you with the responsibility of our nation? Especially when you think that abstinence-only education is the way to go for 300 million people, and yet you can't even manage to convince the 5 people who have been under your authority since birth of that message? Right.

Not that I was anywhere near voting for anyone remotely like McCain or Palin anyway, but I do hope that this seriously fucks up his campaign.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

The_Jazz

Time was that families were off limits. That changed in the 80's and 90's for whatever reason. See the right's villification of Hillary in '94 and '95 for the current high water mark of that particular practice.

Personally I think they should stay off limits. Family members don't run for office. They are not in the spotlight nor do they make decisions, particularly children.

I like what Obama said about this, particularly his restatement that he would fire any staff member involved in fanning these flames. If it turns out one of them was involved, I hope that he will keep his word.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

highthief

Generally, family should be left out of it. None of us are judged in our workplaces by how our family behaves, and I don't see it as an issue for politicans either. The Shrub's daughters have known drinking issues, Jimmy Carter had Billy, etc - none of that is relevant.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

ratbastid

To be fair, she was being brought in as an active but unelected member of the administration, with policy accountabilities and everything.. In my mind, that makes her fair game.

Although you may be right that the tone might have been set right there.

Poppinjay

Even with Palin's anti-abortion pro-chastity stance, the whole Bristol issue should maybe have been off limits. Where I think it tripped up was when attendees at the convention, and Palin's own statement talked about how wonderful it was to add to the family and that Bristol would have to "grow up" much faster.

Because, don't you know, unwed teen mothers are the Solomons of our age.

I think a much smarter reponse would have been, "we love her, it's a family issue, thank you."

Not, "Jamie Lynn Spears has had to face this....."

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

Willravel

If a candidate's family is involved in policy or demonstrates clearly an attribute that would directly effect the way the candidate might serve in his or her role, then they're within limits. If it's just a family scandal that has no bearing on politics, then it's not really something that should be in the public dialogue so far as the candidacy.

pan6467

If the family member is an adult, then yes. Rodger Clinton ok.... Chelsea NO. Billy Carter ok.... Amy NO. Biden's adult sons, McCain's wife, ok..... Obama's kids, Palin's kids NO.

Oh wait..... Biden's sons aren't getting any coverage on the news networks or front pages....... THEY ARE EMBROILED IN ALL KINDS OF SCANDALS BUT Palin's pregnant 17 yr old daughter and Down's syndrome baby is.

THIS IS NOT THE PARTY I LOVED AND SUPPORTED FOR MY ADULT LIFE.

It was the GOP that was supposed to be uncaring, cold, grinding out dirt trying to win by destroying their opponent.

IF THIS CONTINUES..... I WILL NEVER SUPPORT A DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE AGAIN. THIS IS FUCKING PATHETIC AND YOU WHO SUPPORT THIS ARE SHAMEFUL.
-----Added 2/9/2008 at 01 : 47 : 44-----
Maybe just maybe, that was a statement from a mother in the public eye saying she loved her daughter unconditionally and supported her and that her daughter may have made a mistake BUT that the baby would be loved and welcomed.

Maybe she wanted it public because the she knew the fucking left winged news like CNN, ABC,CBS, NBC and so on would use it to try to hurt not only the ticket but her family. Maybe she watched the news read the papers and knew the attacks were coming so she wanted to make a public statement that she supported her daughter.

THAT JUST MAYBE WHAT WAS MEANT.

This woman shows more strength and I admire her bravery and honesty.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Poppinjay

pan, what kind of parent would go forward with the country's most important and time consuming campaign knowing his or her family had challenges like this at home?

If, by some sort of lunacy, I were asked and had these issues, I would say no. No way in hell. It boggles my mind that Sarah Palin thought it was a good idea. What did she think would happen?

You think it's honesty, I think she threw her daughter under the bus.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

pan6467

Maybe because she is strong. Maybe because the press would find out that Palin had been asked and had to turn it down because her daughter was pregnant.

I would not want my child to carry guilt over a mistake they made that prevented me from achieving success. Chances are the press would bring it out anyway.

I love my son. If my son made a mistake, got a teen pregnant and I was in politics and offered the VP nomination, I'd take it and I hope to Hell I'd have the strength and class Mrs. Palin show in handling it.

If I turned down that offer solely because of my son's issue, then my son would feel that guilt for the rest of his life. And I may someday resent him, no matter how much I would want to believe I wouldn't.

But if I stood up and said, "I love my son, I see my son being responsible and mature in this time and I may not have handled this situation as well as my son when I was his age." My son realizes that he has my unconditional love. And to me that is more important than any office, any job, anything else outside of family.

I find it pathetic that people who proclaim to be caring and supportive of family ...... what I once believed was the Democratic strength........ to be so willing to destroy a 17 year old girl just so they can win. Those who support this thinking are pathetic excuses for human beings and in no way represent the Democratic Party I once loved and believed in.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

aceventura3

Every family faces challenges. Having a baby is not "punishment", it is something that people can and do manage. Normal people do not stop living because of a pregnancy. Normal people do not stop loving their daughter if she gets pregnant outside of marriage.

I think she expected normal people to understand.

Or, leave your daughter with the life long scar of being the reason her mother did not become VP? Take a breath, count to 10, and put this issue in perspective.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Rekna

I think the family should be off limits. With that been said, questioning Palin's stance on abstinence only education is not off limits and questioning her judgment to give a speech and illegally fly to Alaska all after her water broke is not off limits. These two things are examples of Palin's judgment and stances and are very relevant to any discussion involving her becoming our Vice President.

pan6467

You're scaring me Ace......

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Poppinjay

I believe I have. There are sacrifices that every parent makes for their kids. If Bristol would be scarred because Governor of Alaska was the most successful her mother ever was, then there are other issues at work. As has been said in this forum, nobody ever said on their death bed that they wished they had spent more time at the office.
And that to me is more important than any office, and job, anything else out side this family. Do you not see how many times you contradict yourself?

That last sentence is exactly what I would say, followed by, "Governor of Alaska is more success than I ever dreamed of, so we'll be happy out of the lime light".

How can you say you're all pro-family values and then say it would destroy your son to know that he kept you from success - success being that next rung on the career ladder. I always thought the democratic party's measure of success was balancing a career with a family without forcing parents to abandon their children for a job, not glory hopping up the political chain.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

pan6467

If I said I couldn't run because my son made a mistake.... and that was the reason I chose not to run..... then I would scar him.

If I took the offer and stood up next to my son and showed him the respect and unconditional love I have for him and that I CAN ACHIEVE SUCCESS WITH HIM NO MATTER WHAT.

Then I am far far from hypocritical. Mrs. Palin shows that to me. I have utmost respect and admiration for her right now. It goes far beyond any politics it goes to my being a parent and wondering if I could ever have that strength and class she shows.

Did the Clintons abandon Chelsea, did Jimmy Carter abandon Amy, did JFK abandon his kids..... oh wait it's just the women that can't do this..... but does the Democratic Party not support women who want families and success???? Or just those women who share the same political views?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Poppinjay

At first you say it would hurt your family if they knew they kept you from climbing the career ladder to nationwide acclaim, then you end saying your family is worth more than any job. If the previous is true, you haven't convinced your family of the latter.

Mark Warner did it. Why can't Sarah Palin?

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

flstf

I think a candidate's children should be off limits. It is difficult when a candidate trots them out at rallys and photo ops and uses them to illustrate what great family values they have. As I recall the Clintons took a lot of flack for advocating public schools and being against private schools when they enrolled their daughter in a private school.

Is it out of limits to critisize Palin for advocating abstinence only and no sex education and point out their pregnant daughter to illustrate what may be a failure of those positions? Is it hypocritical to ask for privacy in your childs pregnancy decisions when you advocate getting the government involved in every family's and young girl's pregnancy choices? I think the answer to the above is no but I can understand why some may feel differently.

jewels

While I agree that the kids themselves should be left out of political warfare, the public wants to know more about the candidates they elect. We've learned, over the years, that anyone can spew meaningless promises and viewpoints. The actions of the candidates tell us a lot about who they are and if we can trust or believe in them.

As a parent (of three girls aged 14+ as most know) I have to wonder where her priorities are. The candidate's agenda will impact her daughter's life. Is this appropriate parenting or is she using her daughter and this issue to bring her strong views into the limelight, perhaps to convolute the issue for unsure women voters?

Is it the realization that you love him is more important than anything? Or are you saying family is the most important thing? Or is this something you'd be doing for the greater good and your kid can fend for him/herself because you'd raised him/her so well?

I don't see this as a party issue. It's a platform issue.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

pan6467

Her stance on abstinence and education can be questioned. I am not making it an issue in how I vote though. Obama's stance is to start teaching it in Kindegarten. So we see extremes on both sides. Neither will be national policy, thank God.

Why did she fly to Alaska? Perhaps to be with family so that they could all share in the birth of a new child? I have heard worse things happening.

If this is the worst you all can find on Mrs. Palin ya all have lost and are grasping at straws.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Poppinjay

Frankly, I would find a run of the mill scandal more comforting.

And no, she did not fly to Alaska to share in the birth of a child, unless it's somebody other than her daughter, who is 5 months along. She is there while the McCain camp contemplates a possible exit strategery for her.

The campaign was still calling Republican operatives as late as Sunday night asking them to go to Alaska to deal with the unexpected candidacy of Ms. Palin.

Although the McCain campaign said that Mr. McCain had known about Bristol Palin’s pregnancy before he asked her mother to join him on the ticket and that he did not consider it disqualifying, top aides were vague on Monday about how and when he had learned of the pregnancy, and from whom.

nytimes.com

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

pan6467

It's a realization that I love my son, would believe that I had a lot to offer in the position and that by taking it I could achieve many things for my family and the country I love.

Family is most important thing in the world.

Why does their have to be a choice between the greater good and my kid. Maybe just maybe I can achieve a greater good for country WHILE achieving a loving and caring household where my kids know they are loved unconditionally and are supported no matter what.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Poppinjay

Now try being realistic about the demands of the job. One of Biden's main points is that he commutes home every day and thinks about the working families along the way.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

pan6467

First I'm confused...... did she fly illegally to Alaska after her water broke or to get out of the VP ticket?

Secondly, I think the NYT is full of shit. The WORST thing McCain could possibly do right now is drop or have Mrs. Palin drop off the ticket.

I doubt very much the GOP would ever drop her now.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Poppinjay

You seem to have forgotten how these things happen.

They start with her saying, "in retrospect....."

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

aceventura3

He thinks about working families as he is flying on a private jet, sipping campaign and eating fillet minion and lobster? I bet he switches to thinking about global warming on his chauffeur driven limo ride from the airport to his front door.

Sorry, I need a break.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

pan6467

Speaking of judgment, let's question Obama's judgment in his "spiritual leadr", in his dealings with Resko, in his friendships with Bill Ayers..... Oh wait we can't.... they have been used ad nauseum, nothing there, that's just hateful..... lol.....

Double standard hypocrisy much?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

Cool....you mentioned Rezko again!

Think Keating and $3billion cost to taxpayers

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Rekna

I'm not sure what Poppin Jay is referring to but I am referring to her flight while in labor which is against FAA rules. She lied to the airlines so that she could fly and put both her and her babies lives at unnecessary risk. The baby was over a month premature, was known to have downs, and she chose to take a long flight instead of going to the hospitals right where she was. If she is willing to risk her child's life so recklessly then what would she do as President?

ratbastid

IMO there are PLENTY of reasons to be alarmed by Ms. Palin that have nothing at all to do with her family. Her policies are plenty enough for me to know she's not my candidate.

abaya

Uh, no... Biden commutes home, by train, from DC to Wilmington, Delaware every night. That's what Poppinjay is talking about.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

roachboy

yeah, well don't let reality get in the way of your persecution fantasies there, ace.
this is another populist right ideological staple, the hallucinated "liberal elite" that exists solely to take stuff away from the righteous petit bourgeois, a kind of principle of generalized expenditure (look it up) dogging out those obsessed with the privates of private property.

i will say that i am looking forward to the moment this particular modality of conservative implosion finishes itself off so that we can move on the the many many substantial reasons not to elect john mc-cain et al.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

guy44

Let's ask John McCain.

TFP: Senator McCain, what is your position on whether or not a politician's family is fair game?

Sen. John McCain: Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? Because her father is Janet Reno.”

– Speaking to a Republican dinner, June 1998.

TFP: Lovely. Thank you.

__________________
"You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

fresnelly

In Canada you rarely hear about politician's families, if at all. You see the spouses in photo-ops with visiting dignitaries but that's about it. No one cares about their chocolate cookie recipes or fashion sense or even their thoughts on policy.

When they do surface in the news, it's for entertainment value only and there's no national handrwinging about the fate of the nation. Here are some stories that come to mind over the past couple of decades that I can actually remember: (in order of spontaneous recollection)

1) Prime Minister Joe Clark's Daughter is hot and got married to some captain of industry.

2) Prime Minister Stephen Harper got some ribbing for giving his young son a firm handshake rather than a hug on his first day of school. This played well into Mr. Harper's stodgy conservative persona but the smirking died down after a couple of days.

3) Aline Chretien slammed the door on an intruder at 24 Sussex drive. There was much hand wringing about the Prime Minister's security detail.

4) Jack Layton (the leader of the NDP) is married to Olivia Chow, who is also a member of Parliament in his party. There has been no hand wringing about their relationship that I can remember.

5) Trudeau got divorced and slept around. This got a lot of press at the time but isn't why he's remembered as one of our most controversial Prime Ministers.

So the snarky response to these non-stories is that we're too boring to have any real scandals. I suggest you look up the Airbus affair and Shawinigate.

The government here is about to call an election and I doubt anyone but a politico-junkie could name Liberal Party leader Stephane Dion's wife. Is he even married? I have no idea and nobody's talking about it. We're talking about whether the conservative govenment will gain a majority and what the consequences will be. I can't claim a more engaged public up here but I can guaranteee that nobody cares a moose's nostril what Lynn Harper brings to the table. No media outlet will ever interview her or any of the leaders' spouses.

I think a politician's family can be fair game in a few circumstances:

1.) Nepotism scandal

2.) Kickback scandal

3.) Behaviour grossly (this is a key word here - we are none of us perfect) contradictory to a stated platform.

I think this last one allows for some scrutiny of Mrs. Palin's family predicament but in the end, it shouldn't be the sole story during the convention.

So why do you guys care so much?

I could ponder the influence of the Christian Right and their desire for "Family Values" standards or Jackie Kennedy worship or the entertainment value of a sanctimonious media, thirsty for content with an over-reliance on Punditry, or the fact that your election discussion has been dragging on for over two years now (ours will be over in 30 days)...

But I'm going to settle on the gut feeling that you guys are truly, truly desperate for better days.

I hope you get them.

__________________
Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life

Baraka_Guru

QTF

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

hannukah harry

i think the candidates family only matters in so much as how it affects (effects?) policy, or if it illustrates how the politicians positions suck. or gross behavior. palin's kid got pregnant. palin is anti-abortion/sex-ed, and therefore there is relevance. but it shouldn't be about the kid so much as her policies, the kid is just illustration of the point.

if a candidates kid killed someone, or committed some other crime, are we supposed to ignore that behavior? just cause they're "a kid?"

only relevant issues involving the family should be brought up. otherwise, no, they should be left alone.

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

Necrosis

Huh? Hillary spoke of herself as a "co-president." She then proceeded to assemble a health reform committee of her friends, illegally have closed meetings, and illegally pay these friends with taxpayer funds.

How in the world do you designate her as "off-limits?"

Willravel

I had forgotten all about that. Fantastic find.

jorgelito

What does QTF stand for? Is it Latin?

__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

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