Liquor Dealer

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,90666,00.html

MONROVIA, Liberia — With fighting receded for now in Liberia's devastated capital, President Charles Taylor joined his desperate people and called for American help to end the war in his bloodied West African nation.

But Taylor, making a victory tour of his shelled capital after chasing rebels out this latest time, gave no sign he would heed President Bush's calls that he step down.

"We ask the international community, most specifically the United States, to do everything within its power to help Liberia and Liberians out of this mess," Taylor said in a radio address Friday, hours after fighting stilled.

Meanwhile: On the other side of the World!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,90486,00.html

President Bush stepped deeper into Africa's political and military strife Thursday, calling for Liberian President Charles Taylor to give up power, for an interim government to be installed in Congo by next week and for democracy to be established in Zimbabwe.

"The cycle of attacks and escalation is reckless, it is destructive and it must be ended," Bush said ahead of his Africa trip next month. "To encourage progress across all of Africa, we must build peace at the heart of Africa."

If you are unaware of where and what Liberia is, it is a nation on the W Coast of Africa that was created prior to the US Civil War as a nation for the return of the slaves in the US to Africa. It was, at least on paper, a nation modeled after the US and used a revised version of the US Constitution. Most of the cities have US but Africanized names, such as thre capital - Monrovia. The official currency is the US dollar. The nation has been totally corrupt almost from its inception.

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Sparhawk

Taylor is a scumbag. I agree 100% w/ Bush.

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"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Memalvada

Liberia is not an oil-rich country, is it?

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"The weak are food for the strong, so die and let me feast!" - Makoto Shishio (RK)

reconmike

Neither is el salvador, but I can remember personally the US helping get rid of the FLMN. Am I wrong?

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The_Dude

i really doubt US is going to go in there and help.

recently, france sent its troops out to ivory coast (right?), an ex french colony.

but that's a different story.

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grumpyolddude

More "Regime Change Diplomacy"?

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Peetster

Monrovia was named after US President Monroe.

The country has been mired in tribal warfare since it began. Taylor has done nothing to stop it.

Memalvada

Yup. The US and Cuba and the USSR (among others) all helped prolongue the bloodshed over here. And americans didn't exactly get rid of it... The FMLN still exists... not as an armed movement of course, but rather as a political one (which has gained A LOT of strength during this past decade)...

And back then... the US 'helped' us because of their fear of communism spreading...

What I am trying to say is that the US will not go to war unless there are some underlying benefits for them. Honestly... do you think the US will go to war for the benefit of the citicens of other countries???

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"The weak are food for the strong, so die and let me feast!" - Makoto Shishio (RK)

geep

Yes.

Sparhawk

No.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

geep

If Charles Lindberg would've had his way, that might be true.

The_Dude

No.

Look at the recent wars we've been involved in.

'Nam - stop communists
Gulf War 1 - to protect our oil interests
Gulf War 2 - who knows what

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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

sixate

DUDE! We don't get our god damn oil from Iraq!!!
If it was about oil every American would have a swimming pool full of the the shit. Wake up.

The second one was to get rid of and disarm Saddam, help the people of Iraq, and show the entire Middle East that we won't stand for them supporting terrorist groups.

The_Dude

in gulf war one, iraq invaded saudi, where our oil interests are located.

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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

sixate

Kuwait Dude!!! They invaded Kuwait. We got there before they invaded Saudi Arabia. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe they ever invaded SA.

Lebell

Iraq never invaded the Kingdom.

Anyway, since we are all throwing around countries to make our point:

Bosnia
Grenada
Panama
Somalia

All countries that have no economic interest for us.

All countries we went to help and where Americans died.


Too bad there is so much selective memory going on.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Liquor Dealer

I seem to remember a couple of events in Asia too! Guess those don't count either.

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Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

KillerYoda

There is a canal in Panama that I'm sure some American's are interested in. Noriega seemed to enjoy it for a while, and he was on the CIA's payroll. I'm sure there's some interest, whether it be to make the US look "humanitarian" or otherwise in the above mentioned countries, but I'm too lazy to look it up.

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"So you're Chekov, huh? Well, this here's McCoy. Find a Spock, we got us an away team."

Lebell

Nonsequiter.

If the US was the evil economically driven country you imply it is, then we would have been better off with Noriega and Hussein by just saying, "We'll leave you alone so long as the canal/oil aren't bothered".

And I don't see the point of a refuting post if you're too lazy to even try to refute the other instances.

"I'm sure there's some interest" frankly isn't persuasive.

Perhaps a dose of "funny" sarcasm will help your arguement.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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geep

If Panama is so interesting, how come it's not the 51st state.

Kadath

Because 50 is a nice round number. We're loathe to exceed it.
Who gives a shit, anyway. Bush will do what he wants. Give it up, fellow lefties. The other side is in control.

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KillerYoda

Never tried to imply the US was an "evil economically driven country, I just knew off the top of my head that Panama did have some American interest, unlike the wonderfully nice humanitarian effort you described.
My point was proven, there were indeed interests in Panama, and I can be as lazy as I want, I'm American.

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"So you're Chekov, huh? Well, this here's McCoy. Find a Spock, we got us an away team."

KillerYoda

And just because that "say something funny line" pissed me off, I looked stuff up:

A bloody coup in Grenada, along with a perceived threat to American students on the island provided the U.S. with an excellent excuse to eliminate a Marxist regime allied to Fidel Castro's Cuba. We hate Cuba, due to losing economic interests with Castro’s coup, so we took out someone who would befriend the Cubans.

And apparently, I was surprised as hell by this, there is oil in Somalia:
http://www.somaliawatch.org/archivejuly/000922601.htm

As far as Bosnia though, I can’t find anything concrete enough. We might have actually done that one out of niceness. The only "alternate" reasons I’ve seen so far was we either did it to keep chaos in the Balkans (evidently it’s easier to be a world power when things aren’t organized there) or because we said we would intervene and didn’t want to lose face.

And for my sarcastic remark, 50 stars look better on the flag.

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"So you're Chekov, huh? Well, this here's McCoy. Find a Spock, we got us an away team."

The_Dude

US didnt go alone in bosnia, it was a NATO-led force

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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

KillerYoda

Yeah, that's what I read too. There were all this "conspiracy-esque" reasons that various pages cited, hence my "no concrete reason" thing.

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"So you're Chekov, huh? Well, this here's McCoy. Find a Spock, we got us an away team."

Liquor Dealer

If we had any interest in Panama we would not have pulled out of it. The original purpose of the canal was to allow the US to have a two ocean navy but only one fleet - this because of it taking so long to move ships during the Spanish-American War. The canal ceased to be useful so far as the navy transitting the canal a long time ago - it isn't big enough for most of the capitol ships - the only ones using now it are auxiliary ships and from frigates down. And in the above quote you are correct about one thing. The US did have interests in Panama - "did" seems to be the operative word however.

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Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

Lebell

You are conjecturing about taking out a regime who would "befriend the Cubans".

And as I recall, we get no, zero, none, zilch oil from Somalia.

Yep, gotta find a reason to bash the US inspite of the lack of any evidence. Of course, I'll point out that Bosnia happened under Clinton.

And it wasn't even funny. (Better hope that the Puerto Ricans never approve a statehood measure.)

Seriously, you know what my biggest beef is? You don't seem to realize that the government is basically run by pragmatists. Almost every post I see from you and a few others is "boo Bush, boo the imperialist Americans, boo the CIA" yada yada yada. I mean, Christ, I saw you had to drag up WATERGATE in another post to bolster your anti-repub views.

THIRTY FRIGGIN' YEARS AGO, DUDE!

Things aren't black and white and the government is not nearly the monolithic institution you seem to think it is. I'll agree, there are some institutions that are slow to change, but change they do.

Even in my own lifetime, we went from a Democratic president who escalated the Vietnam war, to a Republican president who took us out of Vietnam (but then proved himself a crook) to a Peanut Farmer to a Cowboy to Bush to a Sax Playing philanderer to the Son of Bush. And they have left their marks on institutions like the CIA, FBI, ATF, etc.

We've had things to be proud of, such as the moon landing, fall of the European communism, and the ouster of several dictators as well as things to be ashamed of, such Watergate, Contragate and Clinton's willie.

So open your eyes and realize that every administration has it's good points and bad points and that one sided bashing is simply blind foolishness.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Liquor Dealer

I started life under a Democrat who had become a dictator - he finally died before he was able to impose total socialism on this country - he was replaced by his VP - an unknown from Missouri who became one of, if not our greatest presidents. There have been several since then - all had good points and all had bad. You do not discredit the good because of the bad or a president because of the political party he represents. Both major parties have changed through our history - neither stand for anything even close to what they started as. There have been ups and downs for both - at this time one is in the process of self-destructing and hearing the logic of some who support this party might make one wish for an early death.

__________________
Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

KillerYoda

Apparently me saying "I'm not Democratic" a hundred times isn't getting the point across. I'm not siding with liberal views because I'm a Democrat, I side with them because usually they're not as delusional as conservatives. Clinton is a bad as the rest of them, he bombed the hell out of Kosovo and made many "USA is the police of the world" decisons while in office. But forgetting the past definately isn't the best way to move forward. I mentioned Watergate, not even in this thread by the way, because it happened. The Democrats running from Texas thing didn't happen today, does that make it no longer valid too? I'm being cited personally on shit everyone in this forum does.

I'm not simply bashing the US out of one-sided blind foolishness, the only reason I even looked that shit up is because you bashed me and my common use of sarcasm to prove points. I find it kind of ironic that the guy who wrote the rule on "being civil" in threads has made it an apparent point to bash me personally on numerous occassions.

I understand entirely we as the United States have achieved many great things, but you can't just forget bad stuff we've done and only focus on the positive. This whole bandwagon patriotism thing needs to fade eventually before anyone can move forward. As long as everyone is giving the Bush administration a blowjob just because he happens to be in the same "club" as you, no one will realize the many injusticises America has committed in the last few decades. We're a great nation, but are moving towards something bad if we ignore our faults.

You need to open your eyes and realize we're having a fucking internet debate about this shit, it's not like we're UN delagates. Politics is a serious subject and all, but there's no need in making personal citations on people because your views are threatened. I'm sorry if I seem to be down on conservatives only, there just happens to be a lot of fuck ups we can attribute to conservative administrations.

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"So you're Chekov, huh? Well, this here's McCoy. Find a Spock, we got us an away team."

Liquor Dealer

We apparently posted at the same time so I'm going to add by two cents worth to Lebells post again:

I started life under a Democrat who had become a dictator - he finally died before he was able to impose total socialism on this country - he was replaced by his VP - an unknown from Missouri who became one of, if not our greatest presidents. There have been several since then - all had good points and all had bad. You do not discredit the good because of the bad or a president because of the political party he represents. Both major parties have changed through our history - neither stand for anything even close to what they started as. There have been ups and downs for both - at this time one is in the process of self-destructing and hearing the logic of some who support this party might make one wish for an early death.

__________________
Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

Lebell

I agree 100% that this is an internet debate, and believe me, I don't lose sleep over it. Still, I'll repeat, it seems you are only open to bashing conservatives when I can point to as many fuck ups in liberal administrations. A balanced view is all I'm looking for.

And no, I am NOT a Republican or even necessarily a conservative. I am a centrist leaning towards libertarian who was for many years a registered Democrat. I voted for Reagan, I voted for Clinton (shit, I even met the man) and yes, I voted for Gore (to my chagrin).

Yes, all the past happened and shouldn't be ignored, but to use it as a gauge of American foriegn policy today is still foolish IMO. I mean, I don't quote Roosevelt (either one) nor do I talk about the Repulicans being great because the freed the slaves, or the imperialistic tendencies of America as demonstated in the Spanish-American war.

And looking back, I can't see that I broke my own rules, or at least not very much. But you seem to think that you can jump on my shit and I won't call you on it. If you recall, you started on me with the whole "sarcastic comment" business, and even though I bit my tongue the last time we went round, you had to jump on me in this thread. Well, I'm sorry, but if you are saying one thing, but doing another, expect to be called on it.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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The_Dude

omg! this is the 2nd person on tfp that once was a dem, now switched over (to being a non-dem). no offense, but i really hope i dont end up like youl.

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KillerYoda

I didn't aim that sarcastic thing at you only. You technically didn't "bite your tongue" either, hence this whole debacle to begin with. We're always trying to one up each other. I'm not saying one thing and doing the other, the sarcasm remark was at many people, you took it the wrong way and attacked me, and then I followed suit. A simple misunderstanding, so I'm gonna play the pussy role and try to make up. I don't hate you, and I respect you as a member of TFP, as well as a moderator. There's no need us making mortal enemies out of each other over this. I'll stop calling you on petty shit if you do the same.

Will you marry me?

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"So you're Chekov, huh? Well, this here's McCoy. Find a Spock, we got us an away team."

Lebell

Actually, I bit my tongue twice, even if you aren't aware of it. And as you quoted me directly, so I think it natural to believe the original comment was directed at me.

But your words are well said, as life is too short.

As to marrying you, only if we can honeymoon in the Caimans.

But I have to find out when I am going to be Kadath's best man, so we don't have a conflict.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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KillerYoda

Coolness. Like I said before, I'm lazy, hence me not looking for quotes by other people. Glad we resolved our differences, I need to go find a wedding gown.

Until then, I'm off to pick up my "ThreadJacker" of the year award.

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"So you're Chekov, huh? Well, this here's McCoy. Find a Spock, we got us an away team."

Liquor Dealer

Wowsers!

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Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

gonadman

So, then I think the question was how involved diplomatically and militarilly the US should get in a situation with no obvious financial or strategic benefit. Are historical ties and support of the indigent population a strong enough reason to commit our diplomatic and perhaps even military resources?

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-Carlos Castaneda

The_Dude

i pointed this earlier, historic ties were important for france, as they involved themselves in ivory coast.

i dont know if the US should involve itself in liberia, since we never ruled the country directly

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Kadath

And here I thought you'd forgotten about me. You never send me flowers any more, you know.

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Slims

Hmm, has anybody bothered to find out what the Liberian people want?

Just a thought because everyone on here seems more concerned with bashing our own government than talking about what course of action we should take in liberia.

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"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence