Israelis/Palestinians Agree to Truce? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Liquor Dealer · 06-27-2003, 09:19 AM

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Islamic militants have accepted a proposal to halt attacks on Israelis for three months, a senior militia official said Friday, providing the first confirmation from the militants that agreement has been reached.

A formal truce announcement is to be made Sunday, according to officials close to the talks.

The militia leader, who spoke on condition that neither his name nor the name of his organization be used, said the "trilateral document is now ready," referring to the agreement.

Palestinian negotiators said Wednesday that Hamas, the largest of the Islamic groups, and the smaller, Iranian-backed Islamic Jihad signed an accord along with Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement.

Under the agreement, the groups which have carried out attacks on Israel that have claimed hundreds of lives would agree to a three-month cease-fire.

A cease-fire is a key element for starting the U.S.-backed "road map" peace plan that envisions creating a Palestinian state by 2005.

Associated Press
Friday, June 27, 2003
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,90553,00.html

It now appears that perhaps there is at least a chance. Think it'll work?

Conclamo Ludus · 06-27-2003, 09:29 AM

I'm optimistic but how many times has something like this happened and then fallen apart?

If the Palestinian groups called a cease-fire and stuck with it no matter what Israel did they would have the upper hand in world opinion. Any aggressive response by Israel after a true cease-fire by Palestine would result in a lot of pressure from foreign allies to Israel. Israel would have more to lose at that point. I'm glad the US is starting to be a little more critical of Israel. If you want peace, both sides need to be nudged a little.

lurkette · 06-27-2003, 09:42 AM

I'd be surprised if it lasts a week. Sorry to be pessimistic, but there are so many factions involved, and tempers are running so high. All it takes is one little incident and bam, it's all over.

The_Dude · 06-27-2003, 10:25 AM

the problem is, there is no central authority on the palestinian side.

if the palestianian authority n hamas declares truce, there are still other groups that will attack.

i really doubt this will work

geep · 06-27-2003, 01:00 PM

Whoever breaks the truce, if it does indeed get broken, should bear the brunt of the rest of the world's displeasure. We'll see which side truly wants peace.

seretogis · 06-27-2003, 01:08 PM

Groups like Hamas are terrorists. They purposely murder women and children by means of suicide bombers. Why would you take anything that they "promise" seriously?

What needs to be done, is that the Palestinian authority (oxymoron?) needs to demonize Hamas and other harbored terrorists moreso than the Jews. Until sources of terrorism are rooted out and <arnold voice>terminated</arnold voice>, there will be no progress.

The_Dude · 06-27-2003, 03:10 PM

seretogis, both sides are at fault here.

isreali army has killed numerous civilians too (they dont care about side damage as long as they get their suspect).

what the isreali's are doing now is stooping down to the level of the terrorist bastards. eye for an eye.

crumbbum · 06-27-2003, 03:33 PM

"isreali army has killed numerous civilians too (they dont care about side damage as long as they get their suspect).

what the isreali's are doing now is stooping down to the level of the terrorist bastards. eye for an eye."

First statement- rigt, that's why they send in troops on the ground instead of bombing, like the US does and every other country does. Remember their operation in Jenin? It was in an area that was a terrorist nerve center, and full of bombs, snipers and booby traps. They lost 12 soldiers going house to house to AVOID civilian casualties. This is standard practice- don't be ridiculous.

2nd- Palestinian terrorists kill Israeli civilian non-combatants, Israel responds by taking out guilty terrorists in self defense, when the Palestinians themselves won't do it. How is this stooping to the same level? Only one side is targeting civilians here! And anyway, there is no moral sameness to targeted civilian murder and collateral damage, incurred when the enemy uses human shields (wanted Hamas terrorists deliberately hide behind as many women and children as possible. Would you if you were a wanted man?)

Anyway, this "truce" is BS- it says in the road map that they have to DISMANTLE the terror groups. This is an attempt to move along in the process without doing so. A "hudna" is the Islamic term, and the one the Palestinian's are using for this- it is a tactical, temporary cease fire. It would only give Hamas a chance to regroup and rearm themselves, as they have been taking a beating lately. If peace is the goal, a "cease-fire" is the last thing that anyone should support- Israel said that they will continue to act against the terrorists until the PA picks up the slack, as is their responsibility, not only of the Road map, but since the Oslo accords. And they do have the strength to do so, but simply don't want to, or have the will to. The goal of the Palestinian leadership is not peace, and never has been, and this is so damned obvious that anyone who doesn't realize it is blind or in denial.

The_Dude · 06-27-2003, 07:36 PM

explain to me why isreal is targetting the palestinian authority here.

i've seen numerous bombings of palestian police stations and other structures.

this is making the already weak "authority" even weaker.

i'm not siding w/ either side on this issue, but i think isreal needs to take the upper hand here. they're more industrialized and more "advanced" in every way than the palestinians.

QuasiMojo · 06-27-2003, 07:48 PM

It will take only ONE person to derail the earnest, heartfelt
wishes of the masses.

unfortunately.

crumbbum · 06-28-2003, 08:22 PM

They were targeting the PA more before, in the past 2 years. They were doing so because of the terror war against Israel. The PA was established with the Oslo accords, and it was granted a large police force, which Israel themselves armed, for the purposes of restraining terrorists and keeping the peace. The PA was created under the accords- there were conditions for both sides under the accords. Israel was to, through steps, give the Palestinians autonomy, which they did. The Palestinians were supposed to end the violence, accept Israel's existence, end incitement and prevent terrorism. As it turned out, they did none of those things, and in fact many of the PA police were themselves actively involved in terror against Israel, and the PA itself not only didn't act against, but funded and aided and abetted the terror groups. Israel attacked the PA security facilities 1. In self-defense, since they were used as bases for attacking Israelis and 2. because the PA security had made itself illegitimate- it was only there to stop terror and maintain civil order in the PA. It did neither, and only served Arafat's greed and gave him an iron fist. Israel took them out because the PA police force forfeited it's right to bear arms. Also, they were, early on, trying to intimidate the PA into taking action against the terrorists themselves. Israel was attacking empty buildings when it's citizens were being mass murdered, in a vain attempt to intimidate the PA into action against the terrorists, by threatening it's future. The threats didn't work, and Israel never had the political freedom to take it down for real (which should be done ASAP).

crumbbum · 06-28-2003, 08:25 PM

Basically, if the PA police weren't doing the job that they were created to do, and were participating in and aiding terrorism, it was a threat to Israel. Also, seeing as Israel armed them (ironically), they, I'm sure, felt it wrong that that force should still be intact and legitimate- it's easier to fight terror when the terrorists are disorganized. Arafat was funneling money (supplied by US and EU) to the terrorists, through the "security services", all along.

crumbbum · 06-28-2003, 08:29 PM

And anyway, they are targeting Hamas now, primarily, in hopes that the PA will get it's act together (they are under a great deal of pressure with the new "peace plan"), even though everyone knows this will never happen. The PA security still has plenty of power though, more than enough to dismantle Hamas, which is made up of no more than 500-1000 people (and beloved by the masses for the social services they administer in addition to terror). Recently Bush sent a few million over to rearm and rebuild the security forces. (they will be trained, as they were after Oslo, by the CIA).

Mojo_PeiPei · 06-28-2003, 10:31 PM

The Palestinians are screwed. Abbas looks like he is trying, I am glad we stopped dealing with Arafat because he is a fuck up. But has it stands this truce is a sham. Hamas is only agreeing to stop because they are low on funds and the IDF has really been putting the heat on them. Israel should tell Hamas/Al Aqsa and whoever else to go fuck themselves.

The_Dude · 06-29-2003, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by crumbbum
Basically, if the PA police weren't doing the job that they were created to do, and were participating in and aiding terrorism, it was a threat to Israel. Also, seeing as Israel armed them (ironically), they, I'm sure, felt it wrong that that force should still be intact and legitimate- it's easier to fight terror when the terrorists are disorganized. Arafat was funneling money (supplied by US and EU) to the terrorists, through the "security services", all along.

how do you expect the PA to reign in the terrorists when it has no force (all of the force has been destroyed by isreali bombers! PA HQ is now rubble).

crumbbum · 06-29-2003, 05:13 PM

Because the US has paid for their reconstruction. In the past they never acted against terrorists, and therefore their existence was illegitimate. I hope it's different this time, but I don't think it will be, since Arafat is still pulling so many strings. Abbas, in addition to having almost no public support, is really just a puppet of Arafat. He answers to Arafat. They should really just kill Arafat, he is responsible for the murders of thousands of people, American diplomats, Israeli civilians, and a hell of a lot of other people too. He is a terror master, and the architect of the current terror war against Israel (PA members even publicly admitted that the "intifada" was being planned in advance, from around the time that Arafat left the table at camp David and Taba. He probably figured that if the Israeli were willing to offer that much, after so many years of PLO terror, that they were close to being broken as a society, and as an economy, and that more terror would lead to greater capitulation.

Anyway, the PA security has more than enough man and firepower to act against terrorists now. They probably won't though- Abbas already said he would never use force against Hamas or Islamic Jihad (Fatah and the rest are all allies anyway- they compete, and disagree over tactics, but when it comes down they are obviously all on the same team- Abbas gave the education portfolio in his "new cabinet" to Hamas)

The_Dude · 06-29-2003, 06:32 PM

http://www.refuseandresist.org/newwa...rocities2.html

check out that link. it's one of the random ones i found searching.

the palestinian authority does not have enough manpower! and what they have, isreal is destroying. and nobody new wants to join the police cuz they're the primary target of isreal!

crumbbum · 06-30-2003, 12:26 PM

That article was written a year and three months ago. Since then the US has rebuilt the security forces. Like I mentioned, about 2 weeks ago Bush signed I think about 300 Million dollars for this purpose. And though Israel frequently targeted the PA security forces after terror attacks, due to their complicity (and because they, as the official PA security, were in addition to the literal complicity also responsible due to their inaction against terrorists), the PA security forces still retained enough arms and men to act if they had chosen to. Most of the actions Israel took against them were attacks on empty buildings anyway. I think Israel was pissed when the PA police were shooting Israelis, and even when they did "arrest" terrorists under US pressure, let them out almost immediately (revolving door). Basically, if the aren't working to create stability and security, then there is no reason that the force should exist. I think Israel really regretted training them, funding them, and arming them, when those very guns were later turned on the Israelis. I can't really find blame in them for working to take down the bastard child they had helped give birth too.

And anyway, the present is a new equation. The security forces are being rebuilt. The only problem is that there are like 7 different PA security organization, and most of them are directly under Arafat's control. As long as this is the case, the terror attacks will never stop. This new "cease-fire" is a tactical one, a chance for the terrorists to rest, reload, rebuild and reorganize for more attacks in the future. It is not a coincidence that while before Hamas was adamantly refusing a cease-fire, after the Israelis started taking them out and not tolerating the murder of their citizens, that Hamas began to suddenly show interest in this "cease-fire". They wanted it because they were finally starting to lose. That is why it is a mistake- we WANT Hamas to lose. The weaker Hamas is though, the less excuse the PA has for not acting against terrorists- that is why they are ALL so gung-ho about this new cease-fire.

crumbbum · 06-30-2003, 12:37 PM

Also from the article, it seems to insinuate that the army making them remove their clothes is done to humiliate them. In reality, this is done so that the soldiers can see that they are not wearing bomb belts. In the past, palestinians have surrendered and then detonated themselves, killing many. This happened in Iraq too. Actually, shortly after the time this article was written is when Israel launched it's big operation in the "west bank". In the process they found evidence on Arafat's computer, and many documents. He was channeling money to the terror groups all along, through the security services. All the foreign aid money that went to the Palestinians with the intent of getting people in poor humanitarian conditions food, water, etc., was for the most part channeled to terror and skimmed off the top by corrupt PA politicians and leaders. Arafat has a personal fortune of over 300 Million. Arafat himself signed the authorization forms to pay for bomb belts, and to give money to the families of the bombers and other terrorists. Israel was going after the PA security services because it was (is) a hige financial lifeline to the terrorist organizations, among other reasons.

The article also says that the PA police have the right to bear arms from the Oslo accords. But this"right" was not unilateral- they were allowed to bear arms so that they could do their job, which was to maintain civil order in the Palestinian Authority and to PREVENT TERRORISM. Since they did just the opposite, and since the PA did not fulfil a single one of it's commitments from Oslo, it has certainly forfeited the right to bear arms.

crumbbum · 06-30-2003, 07:16 PM

In case I didn't make it clear, I meant to say before that Israel hasn't been targeting the PA for quite awhile now. They are busy with the "Al-Aqsa martyr's brigades", which is the suicide terrorist arm of the Fatah, of which Arafat himself as well as Abbas are leaders in, as well as Hamas and Islamic Jihad, PFLP, etc. They haven't been targeting PA security forces for more than a year.

Also, the PA security forces were what gave the PA power on the ground. The PA was established BECAUSE Arafat agreed in writing to the permanent abandonment of terror and the honest seeking of a peaceful solution. HE broke every promise. By breaking the agreements he made in so many ways, the PA became illegitimate. It's existence was supposed to be predicated on PEACEFUL conflict resolution. Instead the PA has brought incitement, hatred, and financial and moral support for terrorism, and has resurrected the dream of some, or many Palestinians that they can destroy Israel through violence.

israel attacked the PA security forces because without them, the PA would lose it's power as a governmental body, which was a good thing. The terror would be less organized (remember when there were suicide bombers every week?), and Israel would have more freedom of action to defend it's citizens. That is totally understandable- what is not understandable, is the deliberate murder of innocent people, basically tolerated by most of the world, with no one being forced to answer for such crimes. We now have a whole society that has been brainwashed into a death cult. Peace, at this time, is impossible- it will only come when murderers and terrorists are defeated and brought to justice, the world over, and when the Palestinians have lived for perhaps a generation, being educated for peace and their society cleansed of all the hatred and propaganda that the PA has brought into it (there is no free speech or free media, and dissidents are shot).

Slims · 07-01-2003, 11:52 AM

I don't think the truce will work, but it's remarkable that both sides are even considering it.

Liquor Dealer · 07-01-2003, 02:32 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,90830,00.html

JERUSALEM — Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas pledged to "put the past behind us" and work toward peace during their fourth meeting in six weeks Tuesday.

Standing side by side, the two committed themselves to the peace effort launched by President Bush at a June 4 summit and planned their next moves to implement a U.S.-backed "road map" to end 33 months of violence and establish a Palestinian state by 2005.

In the West Bank, Israeli troops prepared to pull out of the Palestinian town of Bethlehem -- giving further momentum to the peace efforts.

The summit came during a week of important strides: Three main Palestinian militant groups declared a temporary halt in attacks on Israelis and Israeli forces handed over security control in parts of the Gaza Strip to Palestinians.

"Even if we are required to make painful compromises, I will be willing to make them for the sake of true peace -- a peace for generations, the peace that we all yearn for," Sharon said.

Abbas, who stood behind his lectern alongside Sharon, responded by declaring it's time to "put the past behind us."

It reaaly appears that both elements are really going all out to make it work this time. Keep your fingers crossed!

The_Dude · 07-01-2003, 02:45 PM

i hope it goes well

06-27-2003, 09:19 AM	#1 (permalink)
Liquor Dealer Super Agitator Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A	Israelis/Palestinians Agree to Truce? GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Islamic militants have accepted a proposal to halt attacks on Israelis for three months, a senior militia official said Friday, providing the first confirmation from the militants that agreement has been reached. A formal truce announcement is to be made Sunday, according to officials close to the talks. The militia leader, who spoke on condition that neither his name nor the name of his organization be used, said the "trilateral document is now ready," referring to the agreement. Palestinian negotiators said Wednesday that Hamas, the largest of the Islamic groups, and the smaller, Iranian-backed Islamic Jihad signed an accord along with Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement. Under the agreement, the groups which have carried out attacks on Israel that have claimed hundreds of lives would agree to a three-month cease-fire. A cease-fire is a key element for starting the U.S.-backed "road map" peace plan that envisions creating a Palestinian state by 2005. Associated Press Friday, June 27, 2003 http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,90553,00.html It now appears that perhaps there is at least a chance. Think it'll work? __________________ Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

06-27-2003, 09:29 AM	#2 (permalink)
Conclamo Ludus Modern Man Location: West Michigan	I'm optimistic but how many times has something like this happened and then fallen apart? If the Palestinian groups called a cease-fire and stuck with it no matter what Israel did they would have the upper hand in world opinion. Any aggressive response by Israel after a true cease-fire by Palestine would result in a lot of pressure from foreign allies to Israel. Israel would have more to lose at that point. I'm glad the US is starting to be a little more critical of Israel. If you want peace, both sides need to be nudged a little. __________________ Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold. -Son House, Death Letter Blues

06-27-2003, 09:42 AM	#3 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	I'd be surprised if it lasts a week. Sorry to be pessimistic, but there are so many factions involved, and tempers are running so high. All it takes is one little incident and bam, it's all over. __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France

06-27-2003, 10:25 AM	#4 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	the problem is, there is no central authority on the palestinian side. if the palestianian authority n hamas declares truce, there are still other groups that will attack. i really doubt this will work __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

06-27-2003, 01:08 PM	#6 (permalink)
seretogis Huggles, sir? Location: Seattle	Groups like Hamas are terrorists. They purposely murder women and children by means of suicide bombers. Why would you take anything that they "promise" seriously? What needs to be done, is that the Palestinian authority (oxymoron?) needs to demonize Hamas and other harbored terrorists moreso than the Jews. Until sources of terrorism are rooted out and <arnold voice>terminated</arnold voice>, there will be no progress. __________________ seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

06-27-2003, 01:00 PM	#5 (permalink)
geep Insane Location: Imprisoned in Ecotopia	Whoever breaks the truce, if it does indeed get broken, should bear the brunt of the rest of the world's displeasure. We'll see which side truly wants peace.

06-27-2003, 03:10 PM	#7 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	seretogis, both sides are at fault here. isreali army has killed numerous civilians too (they dont care about side damage as long as they get their suspect). what the isreali's are doing now is stooping down to the level of the terrorist bastards. eye for an eye. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

06-27-2003, 03:33 PM	#8 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	"isreali army has killed numerous civilians too (they dont care about side damage as long as they get their suspect). what the isreali's are doing now is stooping down to the level of the terrorist bastards. eye for an eye." First statement- rigt, that's why they send in troops on the ground instead of bombing, like the US does and every other country does. Remember their operation in Jenin? It was in an area that was a terrorist nerve center, and full of bombs, snipers and booby traps. They lost 12 soldiers going house to house to AVOID civilian casualties. This is standard practice- don't be ridiculous. 2nd- Palestinian terrorists kill Israeli civilian non-combatants, Israel responds by taking out guilty terrorists in self defense, when the Palestinians themselves won't do it. How is this stooping to the same level? Only one side is targeting civilians here! And anyway, there is no moral sameness to targeted civilian murder and collateral damage, incurred when the enemy uses human shields (wanted Hamas terrorists deliberately hide behind as many women and children as possible. Would you if you were a wanted man?) Anyway, this "truce" is BS- it says in the road map that they have to DISMANTLE the terror groups. This is an attempt to move along in the process without doing so. A "hudna" is the Islamic term, and the one the Palestinian's are using for this- it is a tactical, temporary cease fire. It would only give Hamas a chance to regroup and rearm themselves, as they have been taking a beating lately. If peace is the goal, a "cease-fire" is the last thing that anyone should support- Israel said that they will continue to act against the terrorists until the PA picks up the slack, as is their responsibility, not only of the Road map, but since the Oslo accords. And they do have the strength to do so, but simply don't want to, or have the will to. The goal of the Palestinian leadership is not peace, and never has been, and this is so damned obvious that anyone who doesn't realize it is blind or in denial. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

06-27-2003, 07:36 PM	#9 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	explain to me why isreal is targetting the palestinian authority here. i've seen numerous bombings of palestian police stations and other structures. this is making the already weak "authority" even weaker. i'm not siding w/ either side on this issue, but i think isreal needs to take the upper hand here. they're more industrialized and more "advanced" in every way than the palestinians. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

06-27-2003, 07:48 PM	#10 (permalink)
QuasiMojo King Knave Location: Lancaster	It will take only ONE person to derail the earnest, heartfelt wishes of the masses. unfortunately. __________________ AzAbOv ZoBeLoE

06-28-2003, 08:22 PM	#11 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	They were targeting the PA more before, in the past 2 years. They were doing so because of the terror war against Israel. The PA was established with the Oslo accords, and it was granted a large police force, which Israel themselves armed, for the purposes of restraining terrorists and keeping the peace. The PA was created under the accords- there were conditions for both sides under the accords. Israel was to, through steps, give the Palestinians autonomy, which they did. The Palestinians were supposed to end the violence, accept Israel's existence, end incitement and prevent terrorism. As it turned out, they did none of those things, and in fact many of the PA police were themselves actively involved in terror against Israel, and the PA itself not only didn't act against, but funded and aided and abetted the terror groups. Israel attacked the PA security facilities 1. In self-defense, since they were used as bases for attacking Israelis and 2. because the PA security had made itself illegitimate- it was only there to stop terror and maintain civil order in the PA. It did neither, and only served Arafat's greed and gave him an iron fist. Israel took them out because the PA police force forfeited it's right to bear arms. Also, they were, early on, trying to intimidate the PA into taking action against the terrorists themselves. Israel was attacking empty buildings when it's citizens were being mass murdered, in a vain attempt to intimidate the PA into action against the terrorists, by threatening it's future. The threats didn't work, and Israel never had the political freedom to take it down for real (which should be done ASAP). __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

06-28-2003, 08:25 PM	#12 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	Basically, if the PA police weren't doing the job that they were created to do, and were participating in and aiding terrorism, it was a threat to Israel. Also, seeing as Israel armed them (ironically), they, I'm sure, felt it wrong that that force should still be intact and legitimate- it's easier to fight terror when the terrorists are disorganized. Arafat was funneling money (supplied by US and EU) to the terrorists, through the "security services", all along. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

06-28-2003, 08:29 PM	#13 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	And anyway, they are targeting Hamas now, primarily, in hopes that the PA will get it's act together (they are under a great deal of pressure with the new "peace plan"), even though everyone knows this will never happen. The PA security still has plenty of power though, more than enough to dismantle Hamas, which is made up of no more than 500-1000 people (and beloved by the masses for the social services they administer in addition to terror). Recently Bush sent a few million over to rearm and rebuild the security forces. (they will be trained, as they were after Oslo, by the CIA). __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

06-28-2003, 10:31 PM	#14 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	The Palestinians are screwed. Abbas looks like he is trying, I am glad we stopped dealing with Arafat because he is a fuck up. But has it stands this truce is a sham. Hamas is only agreeing to stop because they are low on funds and the IDF has really been putting the heat on them. Israel should tell Hamas/Al Aqsa and whoever else to go fuck themselves. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

06-29-2003, 05:13 PM	#16 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	Because the US has paid for their reconstruction. In the past they never acted against terrorists, and therefore their existence was illegitimate. I hope it's different this time, but I don't think it will be, since Arafat is still pulling so many strings. Abbas, in addition to having almost no public support, is really just a puppet of Arafat. He answers to Arafat. They should really just kill Arafat, he is responsible for the murders of thousands of people, American diplomats, Israeli civilians, and a hell of a lot of other people too. He is a terror master, and the architect of the current terror war against Israel (PA members even publicly admitted that the "intifada" was being planned in advance, from around the time that Arafat left the table at camp David and Taba. He probably figured that if the Israeli were willing to offer that much, after so many years of PLO terror, that they were close to being broken as a society, and as an economy, and that more terror would lead to greater capitulation. Anyway, the PA security has more than enough man and firepower to act against terrorists now. They probably won't though- Abbas already said he would never use force against Hamas or Islamic Jihad (Fatah and the rest are all allies anyway- they compete, and disagree over tactics, but when it comes down they are obviously all on the same team- Abbas gave the education portfolio in his "new cabinet" to Hamas) __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

06-29-2003, 06:32 PM	#17 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	http://www.refuseandresist.org/newwa...rocities2.html check out that link. it's one of the random ones i found searching. the palestinian authority does not have enough manpower! and what they have, isreal is destroying. and nobody new wants to join the police cuz they're the primary target of isreal! __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

06-30-2003, 12:26 PM	#18 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	That article was written a year and three months ago. Since then the US has rebuilt the security forces. Like I mentioned, about 2 weeks ago Bush signed I think about 300 Million dollars for this purpose. And though Israel frequently targeted the PA security forces after terror attacks, due to their complicity (and because they, as the official PA security, were in addition to the literal complicity also responsible due to their inaction against terrorists), the PA security forces still retained enough arms and men to act if they had chosen to. Most of the actions Israel took against them were attacks on empty buildings anyway. I think Israel was pissed when the PA police were shooting Israelis, and even when they did "arrest" terrorists under US pressure, let them out almost immediately (revolving door). Basically, if the aren't working to create stability and security, then there is no reason that the force should exist. I think Israel really regretted training them, funding them, and arming them, when those very guns were later turned on the Israelis. I can't really find blame in them for working to take down the bastard child they had helped give birth too. And anyway, the present is a new equation. The security forces are being rebuilt. The only problem is that there are like 7 different PA security organization, and most of them are directly under Arafat's control. As long as this is the case, the terror attacks will never stop. This new "cease-fire" is a tactical one, a chance for the terrorists to rest, reload, rebuild and reorganize for more attacks in the future. It is not a coincidence that while before Hamas was adamantly refusing a cease-fire, after the Israelis started taking them out and not tolerating the murder of their citizens, that Hamas began to suddenly show interest in this "cease-fire". They wanted it because they were finally starting to lose. That is why it is a mistake- we WANT Hamas to lose. The weaker Hamas is though, the less excuse the PA has for not acting against terrorists- that is why they are ALL so gung-ho about this new cease-fire. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

06-30-2003, 12:37 PM	#19 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	Also from the article, it seems to insinuate that the army making them remove their clothes is done to humiliate them. In reality, this is done so that the soldiers can see that they are not wearing bomb belts. In the past, palestinians have surrendered and then detonated themselves, killing many. This happened in Iraq too. Actually, shortly after the time this article was written is when Israel launched it's big operation in the "west bank". In the process they found evidence on Arafat's computer, and many documents. He was channeling money to the terror groups all along, through the security services. All the foreign aid money that went to the Palestinians with the intent of getting people in poor humanitarian conditions food, water, etc., was for the most part channeled to terror and skimmed off the top by corrupt PA politicians and leaders. Arafat has a personal fortune of over 300 Million. Arafat himself signed the authorization forms to pay for bomb belts, and to give money to the families of the bombers and other terrorists. Israel was going after the PA security services because it was (is) a hige financial lifeline to the terrorist organizations, among other reasons. The article also says that the PA police have the right to bear arms from the Oslo accords. But this"right" was not unilateral- they were allowed to bear arms so that they could do their job, which was to maintain civil order in the Palestinian Authority and to PREVENT TERRORISM. Since they did just the opposite, and since the PA did not fulfil a single one of it's commitments from Oslo, it has certainly forfeited the right to bear arms. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

06-30-2003, 07:16 PM	#20 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	In case I didn't make it clear, I meant to say before that Israel hasn't been targeting the PA for quite awhile now. They are busy with the "Al-Aqsa martyr's brigades", which is the suicide terrorist arm of the Fatah, of which Arafat himself as well as Abbas are leaders in, as well as Hamas and Islamic Jihad, PFLP, etc. They haven't been targeting PA security forces for more than a year. Also, the PA security forces were what gave the PA power on the ground. The PA was established BECAUSE Arafat agreed in writing to the permanent abandonment of terror and the honest seeking of a peaceful solution. HE broke every promise. By breaking the agreements he made in so many ways, the PA became illegitimate. It's existence was supposed to be predicated on PEACEFUL conflict resolution. Instead the PA has brought incitement, hatred, and financial and moral support for terrorism, and has resurrected the dream of some, or many Palestinians that they can destroy Israel through violence. israel attacked the PA security forces because without them, the PA would lose it's power as a governmental body, which was a good thing. The terror would be less organized (remember when there were suicide bombers every week?), and Israel would have more freedom of action to defend it's citizens. That is totally understandable- what is not understandable, is the deliberate murder of innocent people, basically tolerated by most of the world, with no one being forced to answer for such crimes. We now have a whole society that has been brainwashed into a death cult. Peace, at this time, is impossible- it will only come when murderers and terrorists are defeated and brought to justice, the world over, and when the Palestinians have lived for perhaps a generation, being educated for peace and their society cleansed of all the hatred and propaganda that the PA has brought into it (there is no free speech or free media, and dissidents are shot). __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

07-01-2003, 11:52 AM	#21 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	I don't think the truce will work, but it's remarkable that both sides are even considering it. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

07-01-2003, 02:32 PM	#22 (permalink)
Liquor Dealer Super Agitator Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A	http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,90830,00.html JERUSALEM — Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas pledged to "put the past behind us" and work toward peace during their fourth meeting in six weeks Tuesday. Standing side by side, the two committed themselves to the peace effort launched by President Bush at a June 4 summit and planned their next moves to implement a U.S.-backed "road map" to end 33 months of violence and establish a Palestinian state by 2005. In the West Bank, Israeli troops prepared to pull out of the Palestinian town of Bethlehem -- giving further momentum to the peace efforts. The summit came during a week of important strides: Three main Palestinian militant groups declared a temporary halt in attacks on Israelis and Israeli forces handed over security control in parts of the Gaza Strip to Palestinians. "Even if we are required to make painful compromises, I will be willing to make them for the sake of true peace -- a peace for generations, the peace that we all yearn for," Sharon said. Abbas, who stood behind his lectern alongside Sharon, responded by declaring it's time to "put the past behind us." It reaaly appears that both elements are really going all out to make it work this time. Keep your fingers crossed! __________________ Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

07-01-2003, 02:45 PM	#23 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	i hope it goes well __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal