jewels

This scares the hell out of me. There are lots of psychos and sickos in this transient state. I think we're going to see much more violence than we already do.

sun-sentinel.com/news/local/legislature/sfl-0415gunsbill,0,5138666.story

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Willravel

This is why I live in California and not Florida.

Plan9

Once again: Lawful citizens are now legally enabled and protected. Those who would break the law are already doing such.

Stop being a bunch of gun babies.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dksuddeth

jewels, do you think that before this law was written, i.e. when employers could ban guns in their parking lots, that there were zero workplace shootings?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

jewels

So maybe I should've posted this in Politics?

You've probably never been in traffic and had someone get out of their car at a red light to bang on your window and tell you that you drove to slowly to wait at the red light.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Willravel

1) Shooter opens fire in a workplace
2) Get away from shooter
3) Locate a safe exit and use it
4) Run to your car
5) Get in your car and retrieve your gun
6) Run back to the office
7) Locate a safe entrance and use it
8) Locate the shooter
9) Get in a covered or safe position
10) Open fire on the shooter
... oh wait, in all that time the police caught the guy, arrested him, he had his day in court, and he's already been prosecuted and found guilty.

jewels

Don't you think that a law like this enables more people and gives them a ready excuse?

Isn't that making a lot of assumptions? You have your right to bear. I choose not to. I deserve to die because I made this choice?

Besides, what assurance is there that I wouldn't have already been shot?

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Plan9

Logical fallacy GO: "Legal possession of guns cause / inspire additional crime and vigilante heroics."

Funny, I should have committed at least four dozen crimes already.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

jewels

And your logic doesn't address each and every individual. You're one of the good guys, not a psycho.

Certainly you can concur that many of those that are dangerous just might be more dangerous with easy access.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Plan9

Once again:

Bad guys would do bad things anyway... regardless of some new legislation. They break the law.

New laws only enable the good guys (guys like me, perhaps) to defend themselves and avoid jail over it.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Willravel

BTW, gun crime is up in Florida.

jewels

I might sorta-kinda concede on that, although the severity might differ with a gun verus without. But I didn't address this type of scenario:

I read this article and decide to go buy a gun. It's in the glovebox. Some guy nearly hits me and then cuts me off on the way to work. I get a call from my kid's school that she's been suspended and my boss says to pack things up, sorry no severance. On the drive home, that same SOB appears and nearly hits me again. Okay ... you get the point.

Average Jo(e) has a real shit day. Something happens and s/he loses control momentarily. If that person chose to begin carrying a gun when this law enabled them to carry, no harm would have come to anyone. But when that person crosses that line of sanity for a brief moment, I would not want to be around that person in possession of a firearm.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Willravel

That's an interesting point. While cars make effective weapons, and often are used as such by crazy motherfuckers with anger issues, having a gun handy? Having a gun handy to someone with road rage? That is a bit worrisome.

dksuddeth

average response time for police is 6 minutes. 6 minutes. so yes, there is time. google joel myrick, pearl mississippi, and luke woodham.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

You know who you can't google? The myriad of people who were late to the party, a la my scenario.

dksuddeth

so you're saying that because you're a savage psycho with absolutely no temper control, that I should be prevented from having the means of self defense? [/QUOTE]

not sure what you're getting at. do you mean the police in columbine who waited 20 minutes to enter the school? Or do you mean the LAPD who were ordered back out of the riot area for their own safety? Or do you mean the virginia tech police who dodged behind trees, doors, and walls for several minutes while Cho killed 32 kids at leisure? Or maybe you mean the police at NIU university who were 5 minutes away in another building across campus?
do you mean those people late to the party?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

I mean the people who take forever to get to their gun. If it's not handy, it makes little sense.

jewels

Not at all. But if I'm as good a savage psycho as I'd like to be, you wouldn't have time to reach for your gun. In Florida, the drivers on I-95 that kill others don't shout out warnings.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

dksuddeth

and i'll ask it again, do you think those same psychos are going to be non-psychos because there's a law against having a gun in their car?

then let us carry all the time. problem solved.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

I think that it's assumed that guns are one of if not the most efficient weapons available. Remove such an efficient weapon, and the ability to kill decreases. I mentioned this elsewhere, but can you imagine Columbine with knives and swords instead of guns? They likely would not even have even attempted it. I can't tell you how difficult a drive-by would be without guns.

Those same psychos will be less able to hurt people without having a gun.

ironman

I don't own a gun and I do hate guns, but I'm all for let people carry their guns around freely. If I was to commit a crime, I'd be an idiot if I did it with a registered gun. If I'm a happy trigger psyco mofo and i know that most of the people around me are armed, I'll think it twice before pulling it out 'cause logic dictates that I'll be in dip shit if I do so. Everybody legally armed works a lot like an atomic bomb among countries, nobody use it 'cause you're sure that if you do you'll end up fucked up.

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If I agreed with you we´d both be wrong

telekinetic

I live in phoenix, so I'm really getting a kick out of these replies.

I see someone exercising their right to open carry (Ie, a holster on your belt) at least once a week, which is legal to do without any permits at all...while they're on motorcycles or in restaurants/stores/parks. Never bothered me any. It always makes me chuckle to think the kind of reaction that would get in other parts of the country.

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twisted no more

moot1337

Even a broken clock is right twice a day! Bravo, good sir!

As far as the original post:

The same type of thing was said when states were considering the first concealed weapon permit bills, by nearly everyone in law enforcement. They said that 4-way intersections were going to turn deadly because people don't know how to control their anger, and if you're angry, shit, why not shoot someone?!

The thing is, in the years that have passed since CCW bills and other such legislation was passed, that hasn't happened. People applying for a CCW are put against a more strict and thorough background check than pretty much any other but those for law enforcement, including the ones to buy weapons. People who go through all this trouble in the legal system are unlikely to commit those crimes that would screw their record up, and have their right to arms revoked permanently. Those that don't care about having their rights taken via legal action are probably already carrying anyway. There is also a significant investigation into mental health history with CCW permit application, one more vigorous than that imposed on the buyers of firearms.

This is also not really in light of the bill just signed into law: those who have a CCW permit (who are the only ones affected by the legislation anyway) are already allowed to carry in their cars, and already (likely) allowed to lock their weapons in their cars if they're on public parking, or spaces without posted policies. The legislation is aiming to remove restrictions put on private property parking by the employers if the person utilizing it is an employee. After all, the employers are allowed to restrict carrying weapons inside their buildings by employees, so if one were to carry until that point, where would the weapon be stowed in the meantime? You could, I would assume, just park your car on the street and not run the risk of getting fired for violating company policy, but it's really just tiptoeing around the issue. The real point of this law is that, before it, employers could keep licensed CCW holders from carrying inside their vehicles en route to work by making storage while at work inconvenient. After the law, employers are no longer allowed to infringe on the RTKABA via inconvenience...

Again, this law only applies to those already carrying concealed weapons within the law, specifically those who are licensed to do so by the state. You, not being a CCW holder, and not having received the training to become such, are exempt. It's still illegal for you to carry in your car, regardless.

Now to clear up another small misconception:
No, it's not that you deserve to die. Nobody really does - some people do as an unintended consequence of actions beyond their control, many more do for many other reasons. It happens.

The thing is, the police do NOT have the responsibility to protect you. It's a falsity partially reinforced by their motto, To Protect and Serve. There is no law stating that the police MUST protect a person in danger - it would require too much manpower to be physically possible and sustainable all the time. You can't assign police officers to protect every single individual, simply for the fact that it would require more police than citizens...

Add into this the amount of response time if the officers do decide to protect you (and there is a decision made by someone, somewhere, each time), and many people come to the conclusion that the responsibility for the safety of oneself can only lie with oneself.

It's not that you deserve to die in the above scenario. Far from it. However, should you be carrying a concealed weapon, you'd at least have the ability to influence whether you died or not, and that's what carrying is all about. People who carry are also trained to be in a constant state of readiness for action, and are more likely to respond to a threat quickly than someone who is unaware of their surroundings. It's a good idea to be in a state of awareness and readiness all the time, but having a hunk of potentially lethal metal strapped just beneath your kidney sure does promote it.

__________________
And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be
banana-shaped.
This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again
how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
Oh, certainly, sir.

dksuddeth

I can imagine the really gruesome deaths that would have occurred had those two maniacs had long swords. Can you imagine being stabbed with a 3 foot blade?

I can't wait to move to phoenix.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

telekinetic

In Arizona, a gun in a glove box is not considered concealed, and thus no permits are needed. Are you speaking to this specific Florida rule, or a more general average of national rules?

__________________
twisted no more

Willravel

I can imagine easily defending myself, actually. Even without knowing martial arts all you'd have to do is... well... run. Or close a door. Or punch the idiot really hard. Swords are no where near as efficient as guns. Saying otherwise stinks of desperation.

Just fall back to your previous position: you can't take guns from bad guys. At least that argument makes sense.

moot1337

Just the Florida law that's the subject of the OP. Here in good ol' Colorado, a gun in the glove box is considered concealed, but we also have a law stating that you may concealed carry in your car without a CCW permit. As always, you have to check your state and local ordinances, as carrying concealed without a permit can mean big trouble, and there are differing definitions of "concealed" in different states. There's also an open-carry law, but I don't see anyone walking around with guns on their belts, unfortunately. It'll be a lot harder to exercise that right without harassment once I decide to, but a right unexercised is one given up...

__________________
And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be
banana-shaped.
This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again
how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
Oh, certainly, sir.

dksuddeth

watching &p=1 video and knowing how most people will be more fearful of getting involved/hurt themselves, I see those that have no opportunity to run or are trapped in some serious trouble. I'd rather have the gun, thanks.

caution on the video, it is extremely gruesome and bloody.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

I'll give you $10,000 if you can kill someone with a sword from 30 paces.

dksuddeth

where in a school/workplace/downtown shopping mall can you find 30 paces of open space between people?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

Intentionally obtuse. Fantastic.

How about 10 feet? Have you ever tried to throw a katana?

moot1337

How about, instead of making rhetorical arguments we can't draw any conclusions from, we make some references to and analyze historical events which have happened in countries with total bans on guns?

Japan, for instance...

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/a...n.stabbing.02/

While not entirely relevant, at least 3 of the victims were adults. Why couldn't they pull some ninja shit like Will and defend everyone with not but a plastic straw and 3 wadded up tissues?

Also, for those arguing that melee weapons have no range by definition, take a look at the Tueller Drill....

And, before the thread gets derailed any more, what does throwing a katana have to do with CCW in Florida?

__________________
And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be
banana-shaped.
This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again
how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
Oh, certainly, sir.

cadre

Psychos tend to not really work within the laws so I'm pretty sure that this law won't change them and their habits.

And yeah, here in Az people can carry in their cars without a permit as long as it's in the trunk or the glove box. It's nice.

I think this law is a good thing, I mean it only changes things for people who have CCWs and these people are rarely the cause of the violence people associate with guns. It's their car, and while it may be on someone else's property I don't think people have the right to ban what a business owner keeps in their locked cars in a parking lot.

__________________
My life is one of those 'you had to be there' jokes.

Willravel

How about we look at Japan's crime rate instead of finding some obscure and isolated incident? Oh, right, because they're REALLY low.

dksuddeth

LOL, actually i have. I used to do weapons based karate in the marines.

i know, very few people would ever have the experience, but it does happen.

the problem with focusing on that specific issue is that, unlike japan, americans have a right to keep and bear arms. I know of no such right in japan.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

So to summarize: Japan has a gun ban and has a substantially lower crime rate.

moot1337

As long as you remember that correlation does not equal causation

__________________
And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be
banana-shaped.
This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again
how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
Oh, certainly, sir.

Willravel

As long as you realize that causation is a distinct possibility.

moot1337

Only if you get me some beer... I'm running out of piss for this thread.

__________________
And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be
banana-shaped.
This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again
how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
Oh, certainly, sir.

Cynthetiq

wow... it must be your turn on the "What does that have to do with anything show..."

Oh right, when you do it, it's an example, or your opinion. When others do it....

Please post a reference to your "BTW, gun crime is up in Florida."

I smell a big pile of steaming bullshit.

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