Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > The Academy > Tilted Politics


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 04-16-2008, 11:47 AM   #1 (permalink)
Eponymous
 
jewels's Avatar
 
Location: Central Central Florida
Guns at work

This scares the hell out of me. There are lots of psychos and sickos in this transient state. I think we're going to see much more violence than we already do.

Quote:
South Florida Sun-Sentinel.com
Florida Gov. Crist signs guns at work bill
Associated Press

7:22 PM EDT, April 15, 2008

TALLAHASSEE

Gov. Charlie Crist signed a bill into law on Tuesday that will allow Florida residents to keep guns locked in their cars at work.

Gun owners, however, shouldn't start taking their weapons to work right away. The law doesn't take effect until July, and the business community is already planning to challenge the new legislation in court. A lawsuit on the issue could be filed as soon as next week.

Under the new law, businesses cannot prohibit employees or customers from keeping a legally owned gun locked inside their cars, as long as the owner has a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

Guns will still be off limits at some sites: schools, prisons, nuclear power plants, military facilities and buildings that store explosives.

Supporters of the law say people have a constitutional right under the Second Amendment to carry firearms and should be able to keep guns in their cars for protection. Business owners have argued they have a constitutional right to set the rules on their own property. They say they should be able to ban guns there if they choose, in order to protect employees and patrons.

The Florida Chamber of Commerce and the Florida Retail Federation have already hired an attorney to sue the state over the new law.

The grounds for the challenge will be based on the Constitution's Fifth Amendment, said attorney Barry Richard, who plans to file the lawsuit in federal court on behalf of the two organizations as soon as next week.

That amendment forbids the government from taking a person's private property without compensation.

Although the government would not actually be transferring title of the property from the owner, the law would be placing a new restriction on private property by forcing businesses to store unwanted guns, Richard said.

There will most likely be other aspects to the challenge, but Richard said he's still putting his case together.

Marion Hammer, a spokeswoman for the National Rifle Association, said she doesn't believe the new law conflicts with the Constitution. It only upholds rights citizens already have, she said.

``I think that if businesses want to spend their money in an effort to deprive their customers and law abiding employees of their constitutional right, it's shameful,'' Hammer said.

If the state is sued, it will be defended by the Office of the Attorney General. Sandi Copes, a spokeswoman for the office, said Attorney General Bill McCollum has been supportive of the legislation in the past but that the office will defend the state against any lawsuit to the best of its ability.

The Florida law is similar to legislation in several other states, including Alaska, Georgia, Kentucky, Mississippi and Oklahoma. The law in Oklahoma was overturned last year by a judge who said it conflicted with a federal work-safety laws. That state's attorney general has appealed the ruling.

Copyright © 2008, South Florida Sun-Sentinel
sun-sentinel.com/news/local/legislature/sfl-0415gunsbill,0,5138666.story
__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain
jewels is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 11:49 AM   #2 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
This is why I live in California and not Florida.
Willravel is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 11:52 AM   #3 (permalink)
I Confess a Shiver
 
Plan9's Avatar
 
Once again: Lawful citizens are now legally enabled and protected. Those who would break the law are already doing such.

Stop being a bunch of gun babies.
__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."
Plan9 is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 11:53 AM   #4 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: bedford, tx
Quote:
This scares the hell out of me. There are lots of psychos and sickos in this transient state. I think we're going to see much more violence than we already do.
jewels, do you think that before this law was written, i.e. when employers could ban guns in their parking lots, that there were zero workplace shootings?
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
dksuddeth is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 11:55 AM   #5 (permalink)
Eponymous
 
jewels's Avatar
 
Location: Central Central Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crompsin
Stop being a bunch of gun babies.
So maybe I should've posted this in Politics?

You've probably never been in traffic and had someone get out of their car at a red light to bang on your window and tell you that you drove to slowly to wait at the red light.
__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain
jewels is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 11:56 AM   #6 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dksuddeth
jewels, do you think that before this law was written, i.e. when employers could ban guns in their parking lots, that there were zero workplace shootings?
1) Shooter opens fire in a workplace
2) Get away from shooter
3) Locate a safe exit and use it
4) Run to your car
5) Get in your car and retrieve your gun
6) Run back to the office
7) Locate a safe entrance and use it
8) Locate the shooter
9) Get in a covered or safe position
10) Open fire on the shooter
... oh wait, in all that time the police caught the guy, arrested him, he had his day in court, and he's already been prosecuted and found guilty.
Willravel is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 11:58 AM   #7 (permalink)
Eponymous
 
jewels's Avatar
 
Location: Central Central Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by dksuddeth
jewels, do you think that before this law was written, i.e. when employers could ban guns in their parking lots, that there were zero workplace shootings?
Don't you think that a law like this enables more people and gives them a ready excuse?

Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel

1) Shooter opens fire in a workplace
2) Get away from shooter
3) Locate a safe exit and use it
4) Run to your car
5) Get in your car and retrieve your gun
6) Run back to the office
7) Locate a safe entrance and use it
8) Locate the shooter
9) Get in a covered or safe position
10) Open fire on the shooter
... oh wait, in all that time the police caught the guy, arrested him, he had his day in court, and he's already been prosecuted and found guilty.
Isn't that making a lot of assumptions? You have your right to bear. I choose not to. I deserve to die because I made this choice?

Besides, what assurance is there that I wouldn't have already been shot?
__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Last edited by jewels; 04-16-2008 at 12:02 PM..
jewels is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 12:03 PM   #8 (permalink)
I Confess a Shiver
 
Plan9's Avatar
 
Logical fallacy GO: "Legal possession of guns cause / inspire additional crime and vigilante heroics."

Funny, I should have committed at least four dozen crimes already.
__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Last edited by Plan9; 04-16-2008 at 12:07 PM..
Plan9 is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 12:13 PM   #9 (permalink)
Eponymous
 
jewels's Avatar
 
Location: Central Central Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crompsin
Logical fallacy GO: "Legal possession of guns cause / inspire additional crime and vigilante heroics."

Funny, I should have committed at least four dozen crimes already.
And your logic doesn't address each and every individual. You're one of the good guys, not a psycho.

Certainly you can concur that many of those that are dangerous just might be more dangerous with easy access.
__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain
jewels is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 12:14 PM   #10 (permalink)
I Confess a Shiver
 
Plan9's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewels
And your logic doesn't address each and every individual. You're one of the good guys, not a psycho.

Certainly you can concur that many of those that are dangerous just might be more dangerous with easy access.
Once again:

Bad guys would do bad things anyway... regardless of some new legislation. They break the law.

New laws only enable the good guys (guys like me, perhaps) to defend themselves and avoid jail over it.
__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."
Plan9 is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 12:18 PM   #11 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
BTW, gun crime is up in Florida.
Willravel is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 12:27 PM   #12 (permalink)
Eponymous
 
jewels's Avatar
 
Location: Central Central Florida
I might sorta-kinda concede on that, although the severity might differ with a gun verus without. But I didn't address this type of scenario:

I read this article and decide to go buy a gun. It's in the glovebox. Some guy nearly hits me and then cuts me off on the way to work. I get a call from my kid's school that she's been suspended and my boss says to pack things up, sorry no severance. On the drive home, that same SOB appears and nearly hits me again. Okay ... you get the point.

Average Jo(e) has a real shit day. Something happens and s/he loses control momentarily. If that person chose to begin carrying a gun when this law enabled them to carry, no harm would have come to anyone. But when that person crosses that line of sanity for a brief moment, I would not want to be around that person in possession of a firearm.
__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain
jewels is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 12:37 PM   #13 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
That's an interesting point. While cars make effective weapons, and often are used as such by crazy motherfuckers with anger issues, having a gun handy? Having a gun handy to someone with road rage? That is a bit worrisome.
Willravel is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 12:38 PM   #14 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: bedford, tx
Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
1) Shooter opens fire in a workplace
2) Get away from shooter
3) Locate a safe exit and use it
4) Run to your car
5) Get in your car and retrieve your gun
6) Run back to the office
7) Locate a safe entrance and use it
8) Locate the shooter
9) Get in a covered or safe position
10) Open fire on the shooter
... oh wait, in all that time the police caught the guy, arrested him, he had his day in court, and he's already been prosecuted and found guilty.
average response time for police is 6 minutes. 6 minutes. so yes, there is time. google joel myrick, pearl mississippi, and luke woodham.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
dksuddeth is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 12:39 PM   #15 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dksuddeth
average response time for police is 6 minutes. 6 minutes. so yes, there is time. google joel myrick, pearl mississippi, and luke woodham.
You know who you can't google? The myriad of people who were late to the party, a la my scenario.
Willravel is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 12:40 PM   #16 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: bedford, tx
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewels
I read this article and decide to go buy a gun. It's in the glovebox. Some guy nearly hits me and then cuts me off on the way to work. I get a call from my kid's school that she's been suspended and my boss says to pack things up, sorry no severance. On the drive home, that same SOB appears and nearly hits me again. Okay ... you get the point.
so you're saying that because you're a savage psycho with absolutely no temper control, that I should be prevented from having the means of self defense? [/QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
You know who you can't google? The myriad of people who were late to the party, a la my scenario.
not sure what you're getting at. do you mean the police in columbine who waited 20 minutes to enter the school? Or do you mean the LAPD who were ordered back out of the riot area for their own safety? Or do you mean the virginia tech police who dodged behind trees, doors, and walls for several minutes while Cho killed 32 kids at leisure? Or maybe you mean the police at NIU university who were 5 minutes away in another building across campus?
do you mean those people late to the party?
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Last edited by dksuddeth; 04-16-2008 at 12:44 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
dksuddeth is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 12:44 PM   #17 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dksuddeth
not sure what you're getting at.
I mean the people who take forever to get to their gun. If it's not handy, it makes little sense.
Willravel is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 12:49 PM   #18 (permalink)
Eponymous
 
jewels's Avatar
 
Location: Central Central Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by dksuddeth
so you're saying that because you're a savage psycho with absolutely no temper control, that I should be prevented from having the means of self defense?
Not at all. But if I'm as good a savage psycho as I'd like to be, you wouldn't have time to reach for your gun. In Florida, the drivers on I-95 that kill others don't shout out warnings.
__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain
jewels is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 01:06 PM   #19 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: bedford, tx
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewels
Not at all. But if I'm as good a savage psycho as I'd like to be, you wouldn't have time to reach for your gun. In Florida, the drivers on I-95 that kill others don't shout out warnings.
and i'll ask it again, do you think those same psychos are going to be non-psychos because there's a law against having a gun in their car?

Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
I mean the people who take forever to get to their gun. If it's not handy, it makes little sense.
then let us carry all the time. problem solved.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Last edited by dksuddeth; 04-16-2008 at 01:06 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
dksuddeth is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 01:15 PM   #20 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dksuddeth
and i'll ask it again, do you think those same psychos are going to be non-psychos because there's a law against having a gun in their car?
I think that it's assumed that guns are one of if not the most efficient weapons available. Remove such an efficient weapon, and the ability to kill decreases. I mentioned this elsewhere, but can you imagine Columbine with knives and swords instead of guns? They likely would not even have even attempted it. I can't tell you how difficult a drive-by would be without guns.

Those same psychos will be less able to hurt people without having a gun.
Willravel is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 02:01 PM   #21 (permalink)
Smithers, release the hounds
 
ironman's Avatar
 
Location: Guatemala, Guatemala
I don't own a gun and I do hate guns, but I'm all for let people carry their guns around freely. If I was to commit a crime, I'd be an idiot if I did it with a registered gun. If I'm a happy trigger psyco mofo and i know that most of the people around me are armed, I'll think it twice before pulling it out 'cause logic dictates that I'll be in dip shit if I do so. Everybody legally armed works a lot like an atomic bomb among countries, nobody use it 'cause you're sure that if you do you'll end up fucked up.
__________________
If I agreed with you we´d both be wrong

Last edited by ironman; 04-16-2008 at 02:07 PM..
ironman is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 02:13 PM   #22 (permalink)
zomgomgomgomgomgomg
 
telekinetic's Avatar
 
Location: Fauxenix, Azerona
I live in phoenix, so I'm really getting a kick out of these replies.

I see someone exercising their right to open carry (Ie, a holster on your belt) at least once a week, which is legal to do without any permits at all...while they're on motorcycles or in restaurants/stores/parks. Never bothered me any. It always makes me chuckle to think the kind of reaction that would get in other parts of the country.
__________________
twisted no more
telekinetic is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 02:15 PM   #23 (permalink)
Insane
 
moot1337's Avatar
 
Location: Learning to Fly...
Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
I mean the people who take forever to get to their gun. If it's not handy, it makes little sense.
Even a broken clock is right twice a day! Bravo, good sir!

As far as the original post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jewels
This scares the hell out of me. There are lots of psychos and sickos in this transient state. I think we're going to see much more violence than we already do.
The same type of thing was said when states were considering the first concealed weapon permit bills, by nearly everyone in law enforcement. They said that 4-way intersections were going to turn deadly because people don't know how to control their anger, and if you're angry, shit, why not shoot someone?!

The thing is, in the years that have passed since CCW bills and other such legislation was passed, that hasn't happened. People applying for a CCW are put against a more strict and thorough background check than pretty much any other but those for law enforcement, including the ones to buy weapons. People who go through all this trouble in the legal system are unlikely to commit those crimes that would screw their record up, and have their right to arms revoked permanently. Those that don't care about having their rights taken via legal action are probably already carrying anyway. There is also a significant investigation into mental health history with CCW permit application, one more vigorous than that imposed on the buyers of firearms.

This is also not really in light of the bill just signed into law: those who have a CCW permit (who are the only ones affected by the legislation anyway) are already allowed to carry in their cars, and already (likely) allowed to lock their weapons in their cars if they're on public parking, or spaces without posted policies. The legislation is aiming to remove restrictions put on private property parking by the employers if the person utilizing it is an employee. After all, the employers are allowed to restrict carrying weapons inside their buildings by employees, so if one were to carry until that point, where would the weapon be stowed in the meantime? You could, I would assume, just park your car on the street and not run the risk of getting fired for violating company policy, but it's really just tiptoeing around the issue. The real point of this law is that, before it, employers could keep licensed CCW holders from carrying inside their vehicles en route to work by making storage while at work inconvenient. After the law, employers are no longer allowed to infringe on the RTKABA via inconvenience...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jewels
But I didn't address this type of scenario:

I read this article and decide to go buy a gun. It's in the glovebox. Some guy nearly hits me and then cuts me off on the way to work. I get a call from my kid's school that she's been suspended and my boss says to pack things up, sorry no severance. On the drive home, that same SOB appears and nearly hits me again. Okay ... you get the point.

Average Jo(e) has a real shit day. Something happens and s/he loses control momentarily. If that person chose to begin carrying a gun when this law enabled them to carry, no harm would have come to anyone. But when that person crosses that line of sanity for a brief moment, I would not want to be around that person in possession of a firearm.
Again, this law only applies to those already carrying concealed weapons within the law, specifically those who are licensed to do so by the state. You, not being a CCW holder, and not having received the training to become such, are exempt. It's still illegal for you to carry in your car, regardless.

Now to clear up another small misconception:
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewels
Isn't that making a lot of assumptions? You have your right to bear. I choose not to. I deserve to die because I made this choice?

Besides, what assurance is there that I wouldn't have already been shot?
No, it's not that you deserve to die. Nobody really does - some people do as an unintended consequence of actions beyond their control, many more do for many other reasons. It happens.

The thing is, the police do NOT have the responsibility to protect you. It's a falsity partially reinforced by their motto, To Protect and Serve. There is no law stating that the police MUST protect a person in danger - it would require too much manpower to be physically possible and sustainable all the time. You can't assign police officers to protect every single individual, simply for the fact that it would require more police than citizens...

Add into this the amount of response time if the officers do decide to protect you (and there is a decision made by someone, somewhere, each time), and many people come to the conclusion that the responsibility for the safety of oneself can only lie with oneself.

It's not that you deserve to die in the above scenario. Far from it. However, should you be carrying a concealed weapon, you'd at least have the ability to influence whether you died or not, and that's what carrying is all about. People who carry are also trained to be in a constant state of readiness for action, and are more likely to respond to a threat quickly than someone who is unaware of their surroundings. It's a good idea to be in a state of awareness and readiness all the time, but having a hunk of potentially lethal metal strapped just beneath your kidney sure does promote it.
__________________
And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be
banana-shaped.

This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again
how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.

Oh, certainly, sir.
moot1337 is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 02:17 PM   #24 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: bedford, tx
Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
I think that it's assumed that guns are one of if not the most efficient weapons available. Remove such an efficient weapon, and the ability to kill decreases. I mentioned this elsewhere, but can you imagine Columbine with knives and swords instead of guns? They likely would not even have even attempted it. I can't tell you how difficult a drive-by would be without guns.

Those same psychos will be less able to hurt people without having a gun.
I can imagine the really gruesome deaths that would have occurred had those two maniacs had long swords. Can you imagine being stabbed with a 3 foot blade?

Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedmosaic
I live in phoenix, so I'm really getting a kick out of these replies.

I see someone exercising their right to open carry (Ie, a holster on your belt) at least once a week, which is legal to do without any permits at all...while they're on motorcycles or in restaurants/stores/parks. Never bothered me any. It always makes me chuckle to think the kind of reaction that would get in other parts of the country.
I can't wait to move to phoenix.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Last edited by dksuddeth; 04-16-2008 at 02:18 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
dksuddeth is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 02:21 PM   #25 (permalink)
zomgomgomgomgomgomg
 
telekinetic's Avatar
 
Location: Fauxenix, Azerona
Quote:
Originally Posted by moot1337
Again, this law only applies to those already carrying concealed weapons within the law, specifically those who are licensed to do so by the state. You, not being a CCW holder, and not having received the training to become such, are exempt. It's still illegal for you to carry in your car, regardless.
In Arizona, a gun in a glove box is not considered concealed, and thus no permits are needed. Are you speaking to this specific Florida rule, or a more general average of national rules?
__________________
twisted no more
telekinetic is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 02:21 PM   #26 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dksuddeth
I can imagine the really gruesome deaths that would have occurred had those two maniacs had long swords. Can you imagine being stabbed with a 3 foot blade?
I can imagine easily defending myself, actually. Even without knowing martial arts all you'd have to do is... well... run. Or close a door. Or punch the idiot really hard. Swords are no where near as efficient as guns. Saying otherwise stinks of desperation.

Just fall back to your previous position: you can't take guns from bad guys. At least that argument makes sense.
Willravel is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 02:32 PM   #27 (permalink)
Insane
 
moot1337's Avatar
 
Location: Learning to Fly...
Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedmosaic
In Arizona, a gun in a glove box is not considered concealed, and thus no permits are needed. Are you speaking to this specific Florida rule, or a more general average of national rules?
Just the Florida law that's the subject of the OP. Here in good ol' Colorado, a gun in the glove box is considered concealed, but we also have a law stating that you may concealed carry in your car without a CCW permit. As always, you have to check your state and local ordinances, as carrying concealed without a permit can mean big trouble, and there are differing definitions of "concealed" in different states. There's also an open-carry law, but I don't see anyone walking around with guns on their belts, unfortunately. It'll be a lot harder to exercise that right without harassment once I decide to, but a right unexercised is one given up...
__________________
And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be
banana-shaped.

This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again
how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.

Oh, certainly, sir.

Last edited by moot1337; 04-16-2008 at 02:34 PM..
moot1337 is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 02:39 PM   #28 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: bedford, tx
Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
I can imagine easily defending myself, actually. Even without knowing martial arts all you'd have to do is... well... run. Or close a door. Or punch the idiot really hard. Swords are no where near as efficient as guns. Saying otherwise stinks of desperation.

Just fall back to your previous position: you can't take guns from bad guys. At least that argument makes sense.
watching
&p=1 video and knowing how most people will be more fearful of getting involved/hurt themselves, I see those that have no opportunity to run or are trapped in some serious trouble. I'd rather have the gun, thanks.

caution on the video, it is extremely gruesome and bloody.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
dksuddeth is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 02:41 PM   #29 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
I'll give you $10,000 if you can kill someone with a sword from 30 paces.
Willravel is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 02:44 PM   #30 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: bedford, tx
Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
I'll give you $10,000 if you can kill someone with a sword from 30 paces.
where in a school/workplace/downtown shopping mall can you find 30 paces of open space between people?
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
dksuddeth is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 02:47 PM   #31 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dksuddeth
where in a school/workplace/downtown shopping mall can you find 30 paces of open space between people?
Intentionally obtuse. Fantastic.

How about 10 feet? Have you ever tried to throw a katana?
Willravel is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 04:14 PM   #32 (permalink)
Insane
 
moot1337's Avatar
 
Location: Learning to Fly...
How about, instead of making rhetorical arguments we can't draw any conclusions from, we make some references to and analyze historical events which have happened in countries with total bans on guns?

Japan, for instance...

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/a...n.stabbing.02/

While not entirely relevant, at least 3 of the victims were adults. Why couldn't they pull some ninja shit like Will and defend everyone with not but a plastic straw and 3 wadded up tissues?

Also, for those arguing that melee weapons have no range by definition, take a look at the Tueller Drill....

And, before the thread gets derailed any more, what does throwing a katana have to do with CCW in Florida?
__________________
And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be
banana-shaped.

This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again
how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.

Oh, certainly, sir.
moot1337 is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 04:30 PM   #33 (permalink)
The Worst Influence
 
cadre's Avatar
 
Location: Arizona
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewels
And your logic doesn't address each and every individual. You're one of the good guys, not a psycho.

Certainly you can concur that many of those that are dangerous just might be more dangerous with easy access.
Psychos tend to not really work within the laws so I'm pretty sure that this law won't change them and their habits.

And yeah, here in Az people can carry in their cars without a permit as long as it's in the trunk or the glove box. It's nice.

I think this law is a good thing, I mean it only changes things for people who have CCWs and these people are rarely the cause of the violence people associate with guns. It's their car, and while it may be on someone else's property I don't think people have the right to ban what a business owner keeps in their locked cars in a parking lot.
__________________
My life is one of those 'you had to be there' jokes.
cadre is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 04:40 PM   #34 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by moot1337
How about, instead of making rhetorical arguments we can't draw any conclusions from, we make some references to and analyze historical events which have happened in countries with total bans on guns?
How about we look at Japan's crime rate instead of finding some obscure and isolated incident? Oh, right, because they're REALLY low.
Willravel is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 05:25 PM   #35 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: bedford, tx
Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
Intentionally obtuse. Fantastic.

How about 10 feet? Have you ever tried to throw a katana?
LOL, actually i have. I used to do weapons based karate in the marines.

i know, very few people would ever have the experience, but it does happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
How about we look at Japan's crime rate instead of finding some obscure and isolated incident? Oh, right, because they're REALLY low.
the problem with focusing on that specific issue is that, unlike japan, americans have a right to keep and bear arms. I know of no such right in japan.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Last edited by dksuddeth; 04-16-2008 at 05:27 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
dksuddeth is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 05:41 PM   #36 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dksuddeth
the problem with focusing on that specific issue is that, unlike japan, americans have a right to keep and bear arms. I know of no such right in japan.
So to summarize: Japan has a gun ban and has a substantially lower crime rate.
Willravel is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 06:33 PM   #37 (permalink)
Insane
 
moot1337's Avatar
 
Location: Learning to Fly...
Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
So to summarize: Japan has a gun ban and has a substantially lower crime rate.
As long as you remember that correlation does not equal causation
__________________
And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be
banana-shaped.

This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again
how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.

Oh, certainly, sir.
moot1337 is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 07:09 PM   #38 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by moot1337
As long as you remember that correlation does not equal causation
As long as you realize that causation is a distinct possibility.
Willravel is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 07:56 PM   #39 (permalink)
Insane
 
moot1337's Avatar
 
Location: Learning to Fly...
Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
As long as you realize that causation is a distinct possibility.
Only if you get me some beer... I'm running out of piss for this thread.
__________________
And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be
banana-shaped.

This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again
how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.

Oh, certainly, sir.
moot1337 is offline  
Old 04-16-2008, 08:03 PM   #40 (permalink)
Tilted Cat Head
 
Cynthetiq's Avatar
 
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
I'll give you $10,000 if you can kill someone with a sword from 30 paces.
wow... it must be your turn on the "What does that have to do with anything show..."

Oh right, when you do it, it's an example, or your opinion. When others do it....

Please post a reference to your "BTW, gun crime is up in Florida."

I smell a big pile of steaming bullshit.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.
Cynthetiq is offline  
 

Tags
guns, work

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:24 AM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360