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03-19-2008, 05:59 PM
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#241 (permalink) | |
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Psycho
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And to say his pastor of 20 years isn't or doesn't espouse a racist point of view is rather disingenuous wouldn't you agree? Supposing David Duke was a minister and McCain happened to sit under his tutelage and spiritual guidance for 20 years or so years then decided to run for president. Would we even be having this conversation? I think we both know the answer to that don't we? On another note .... Comparing someone's pastor views to a family members view is a stretch at best. We can and do choose our spiritual or celestial guide but we can't choose our family members. Last edited by scout; 03-19-2008 at 06:03 PM.. |
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03-19-2008, 06:17 PM
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#242 (permalink) | ||||
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Junkie
Location: San Antonio, TX
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03-19-2008, 06:21 PM
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#243 (permalink) | |
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Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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Quote:
I can see that you have already made up your mind that Rev. Wright is a racist and that by extension Obama should be painted with the same brush. I am not going to waste the keystrokes necessary to argue to the contrary as I honestly feel it would be a waste of my time. All I can say is that I am sorry you feel this way.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
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03-19-2008, 07:09 PM
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#244 (permalink) |
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Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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Wright referring to white people as "the enemy", 2:30 mark.
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Sfu2P6cGhWo&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Sfu2P6cGhWo&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object> It is what it is. |
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03-19-2008, 07:13 PM
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#245 (permalink) | |||
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Banned
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03-19-2008, 07:27 PM
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#246 (permalink) | |
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Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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Actually, powerclown, what he said was:
Quote:
I don't see this man as a racist. I see him as divisive and inflammatory. Things that are largely unhelpful in my eyes. But racist? No. And Matthew... please don't take my words out of context. That sentence follows on the point that Scout appears to have already made up his mind so any further dialog is just pissing the wind.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke Last edited by Charlatan; 03-19-2008 at 07:37 PM.. |
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03-19-2008, 07:40 PM
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#248 (permalink) | |
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Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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Quote:
Your last paragraph is one large attack towards me. But I'm not being attacked for my opinions and the questions I have am I... just my imagination that last paragraph telling me what I'm interested in, that I couldn't possibly truly be interested in knowing the truth to the question I have?
__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
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03-19-2008, 08:10 PM
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#249 (permalink) | |
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Pissing in the cornflakes
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You won't find answers here in the quarantine zone, and you dared question the new messiah. I know you are nothing close to a conservative pan, but just think of this as a learning experience and move on.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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03-19-2008, 08:35 PM
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#250 (permalink) | |
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Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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But I can't help think about a scenario where Obama is sitting in the front row of that church, with his wife and children, listening to that man preach, and what must be going though his mind. That calm, rational, measured, perfect public image - up against what he must be thinking and feeling inside as a human being. He sure doesn't seem like Pastor Wright in any outward way at all. And for the life of me I can't picture Obama whooping and hollering along with the rest of the congregation. It's all a bit surreal. |
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03-19-2008, 08:45 PM
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#251 (permalink) | ||
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Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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Quote:
Ok, first, I want to thank you for honest sincere answers Robot. There were no attacks, you answered with your opinion of what I have said with what I believe to be honesty and respect. I am just going to give a short answer, most of what I needed to say I said. To me the Farrakhan issue is big. It should be one thing that shows where the church is, where Rev. Wright stands and where one can believe reasonably, Obama stands. To me it is huge that the man Obama calls his spiritual/religious mentor chose to go to Libya with Farrakhan in 1984 and that Obama still sought him out and followed his teachings. You can call it guilt by association or my trying to attack Obama's character or meaningless.... but to me this is one point that truly bothers me. Right or wrongly, I reiterate and repeat..... this is one huge ass issue with me. I would feel the same if a white cadidate, named Pat Robertson his spiritual/religious mentor, and Pat had gone to Iraq in the 90's with David Duke. Now to his credit Obama has denounced his church's and spiritual/religious mentor's naming of Farrakhan as a great humanitarian. Maybe I think of a spritual/religious mentor differently, but I could not nor would not call any man my spiritual/religious leader if he associated closely with David Duke or even Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell for that matter. It goes against everything I spiritually believe in. So forgive me if I have issues, reconciling to the fact that a man who wants to be president can still call a man that he states he has strong philosophical differences with. Now, Obama states in his speech he was in the church when hateful things were said. Quote:
Just as you can look throughout my entire posting history, you will never once see me defend or justify or excuse anything Robertson/Falwell/etc have ever said. They are hateful and in no way represent the Jesus Christ I believe in. I feel the same way about Sharpton and now Rev. Wright. Nor is Farrakhan a true example of the Muslim/Islam religion. Rev. Jesse Jackson, while at times controversial does preach love and I have never heard such hatred come out of him. I don't agree with all he says but that's because he at times gets lost in the past. Most of the time though, he gives very positive speeches concerning the future of race relations, much like MLK Jr. did. You say I ignore the context for which this church was formed. But it seems to me so has Rev. Wright. It seems to me that his hatred and prejudice has led him away from Jesus' teachings (much like Pat Robertson's and Jerry Falwell's have). For me, to have a candidate say that a Rev. who is so far away from what I see Christ teaching (love, forgiveness, working together to build a better future, etc) that to call him your spiritual/religious mentor you know Christ only as the Rev. sees him. Which would be hateful, spiteful and damning and used to further one's own political/social agenda. I respect and thank you for not talking about McCain, it seemed there for awhile all some people could comeback with was "well what about McCain going to Hagee...." It's a point that has no true relevance, I put it in to kind of sop that nonsense, I appreciate you not giving it. Overall, again, you defended your candidate very well and showed respect in doing so. That is all one can ask. I have brought out my concerns and tried to do so as respectfully as I know how.... I'm passionate about this because this man can be our next leader and I have questions, character means something to me. Sometimes my passion gets the best of me, but I'm not the only one in that category. I think we can agree to disagree over some things. You see Obama one way, I see him another. But your response did give and wll give me things to think about. I may ask more questions, I may ask the same questions, again, to me this is a very important issue.... not necessarily because I plan to ever support him as a candidate, but will I be able to give him a chance to earn my respect as president? I don't know..... I have too many questions, and yet when I ask them for the most part they go unanswered and respect goes out the window. I cannot tell you how much it means that you took time to answer respectfully and to the best of your ability to show why you support the man and why you believe this is all a non issue to you.
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
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03-19-2008, 08:47 PM
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#252 (permalink) | |
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Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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I do see that a large part of this whole affair is simply partisanship. Republicans and their ilk capitalizing on an issue that is (to my eyes) relatively minor but if talked up enough can do some serious damage. The same tactics are used again and again by both sides. This isn't new. Rove was a master at this sort of thing (even McCain felt the sting of it in the past). However, I am wondering if some of the issues that we are all having with this discussion doesn't stem from our personal views on religion. Most of the people who appear to be shrugging off the connection between Wright and Obama are not religious. I for one find the whole need of a spiritual adviser and the need to wear your religious belief on your sleeve extremely weird. But then I am a Canadian and religion has largely been absent from our political discourse (until recently and even then, it's a side issue). In fact, I would say that I feel about religion in politics the same way that others here have suggested that politics doesn't belong in the mouths of their rabbis and ministers. To the point, I don't place as much weight on a "spiritual adviser" as others do and wonder if that is the difference. Of course it isn't that simple, there are many other factors at play, including the point about partisanship above and the massive elephant in the America's room, race. I still feel that this whole affair is going to give Clinton the edge in the primaries. It has introduced much doubt into the voter's minds. I only hope his excellent speech on race and the issue of his "spiritual adviser" was enough to counter that doubt.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke Last edited by Charlatan; 03-19-2008 at 09:07 PM.. |
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03-19-2008, 08:50 PM
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#253 (permalink) |
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... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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White people aren't the enemy?
 I'm satisfied with Obama's explaination (the same way that a person who is dying of thirst is satisfied with a glass of ice water). I've also given up on network news for good, because of everyone's response to the speech. Do I agree with the Reverend's sermon? Not really. He's playing to extremes in order to get attention. As someone who is also very preachy myself, it's embarrassing to see this tactic. I find it's best to be straight with people, whether the truth is a blaring trumpet or a muted french horn. Wright was playing the french horn part on a trumpet, and unfortunately he's given the media enough ammunition to ramble on 24/7 for about a month before people star killing themselves because they're so sick of hearing about it. |
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03-19-2008, 09:02 PM
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#254 (permalink) | ||
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Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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Quote:
I was unaware of this: Quote:
Again, I appreciate this type of response.... no attack, no dismissal of my questions, just a simple post showing a possible answer. Thank you.
__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
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03-19-2008, 10:43 PM
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#255 (permalink) |
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Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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I find it quite surreal that someone like Mike Huckabee can not only understand what's going on here, but is willing to speak out about it, yet there seem to be a number of people who have far less connection to the subject that are so outraged.
And if you haven't listened to the short NPR report on Black Liberation Theology that I posted above, you need to listen to it now. It is impossible to have an even remotely accurate understanding of Rev. Wright without having at least a basic understanding of Black Liberation Theology.
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling |
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03-19-2008, 11:07 PM
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#256 (permalink) | |
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Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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Quote:
__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
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03-20-2008, 12:21 AM
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#257 (permalink) |
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Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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Obama gave a decent enough speech on race the other day, but it's a hell of a time to even be discussing such a controversial subject just months before the election. It's enough he has to say all the right things about domestic and foreign policy, but to have to tackle the ginormous subject of race might be problematic. He could spend 2 terms in office as President addressing racial issues, and still get nowhere. Perhaps if he ends up losing the election, he could devote more of his time addressing racial issues and injustices as he sees them. It seems like a lot to ask of a candidate to tackle the subject of race relations *and* run a conventional campaign at the same time.
I thought Huckabee's comments were out of left field for sure. Last edited by powerclown; 03-20-2008 at 12:33 AM.. |
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03-20-2008, 12:35 AM
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#258 (permalink) | |
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Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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Quote:
If he had said nothing it would have been suicide. Taking a stance on this issue was the right thing to do. I can't imagine either Hillary Clinton or John Kerry doing something like this... or rather I can but they wouldn't have carried it of with such aplomb. That said, I agree. I don't think it really is the time and place for this discussion. There seem to be bigger fish to fry and I wish the media and the pundits would concentrate on those issues rather than this one.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
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03-20-2008, 05:14 AM
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#259 (permalink) | |
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Living in a Warmer Insanity
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club |
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03-20-2008, 06:13 AM
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#260 (permalink) | |||
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Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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My question is: where did you get the assertion that Wright was on Obama's political payroll? Because everything I'm seeing indicates the contrary--that Obama saw him at church, used him as a spiritual counselor, and obviously had a close relationship with him in that respect, but that he was never any formal member of the campaign and never was a political advisor. Obama explicitly said as much in the Tuesday speech--although lingering credibility issues may impede one's trust in that statement, of course. Quote:
Your point about the bizarre outrage, though, is well taken. Quote:
Last edited by ratbastid; 03-20-2008 at 06:19 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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03-20-2008, 06:34 AM
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#261 (permalink) | |
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Ambling Toward the Light
Location: The Early 16th Century
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 I say that because I was not for Obama before this and I am still not sure. I was for McCain 8 years ago and last summer I thought I would be for McCain if he won the nomination regardless of who the Dem's nominee was. Right now, I am still leaning that way however... Obama won points with me on Tuesday. I wish he said some things more outright than he did but I am an adult and understand that you cannot have everything you want in this world. Amazingly enough, the biggest thing keeping me out of his camp is the same thing others are flocking to him over...Iraq. While I was not in favor of the war there to start with (I really thought we needed to focus on Afghanistan) I am in favor of finishing what we started. It is our fault the country is destabilized and like it or not, we can't just walk away from a mess we literally created.
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SQL query SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue > 0 Zero rows returned.... Last edited by SirSeymour; 03-20-2008 at 06:47 AM.. |
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03-20-2008, 07:43 AM
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#262 (permalink) | |||
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Banned
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<a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpost.php?p=2365145&postcount=23">Link to my post....</a>, I cannot comprehend how you could "believe he's a good man with a good head on his shoulders", when, in all likelihood, Huckabee is as "whacked out" as the co-author of his book. George Grant. IMO. Huckabee was probably potentially the most dangerous candidate in the presidential race. Visiting Israel nine times during his life, I posted on this forum, (<a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?p=2383074&highlight=huckabee+israel#post2383074">link</a>) information supporting the premise that Huckabee's world view and foreign policy "vision", began and ended with Israel. He exhibited little or no knowledge about anything having to do with foreign policy, related to any other country or region. He is John Hagee in a politician's suit, IMO. Consider that Huckabee decided to write a book with Grant, a guy who has said this: Quote:
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Last edited by host; 03-20-2008 at 08:02 AM.. |
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03-20-2008, 08:08 AM
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#263 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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if you like, seymour, you can look through this thread even and you'll see a pretty wide range of objections to the wright-tempest, very few of which could be understood as obama supporters rallying round their candidate.
there are alot of ways in which this "issue" is problematic--it's reliance on 30 second decontextualized video clips repeated ad nauseum on 24/7 infotainment channels demonstrates the extent to which anything, repeated enough times, can acquire a certain traction no matter how stupid, now matter how superficial. repetition is its own reward: repetition is power. the way in which this decontextualized video clips repeated ad infinitum on 24/7 "news" television--the illusion that if you see the same 30 second clip enough times you understand fuck all about where that clip comes from, so repetition not only replaces context, but substitutes for context---this is of a piece with the shallower-than-shallow framing of wright as "racist"...the frames within which this claim even begin to make sense are deeply problematic: conservatives of the limbaugh stripe working the dynamics of the meme to the wholesale exclusion of social reality and its history, and the dynamics produced by the repetition of the meme itself. so this idiotic affair acquired a sense of momentum through its being-packaged in easily repeatable form along with a steaming brown torrent of pseudo-analyses commensurate with that: 30 second arguments for 30 second attention spans. these 30-second arguments resonate with a number of other problematic aspects of the populist conservative culture of victimization---conservatives are of course the victims, much in the way that early christians were--misunderstood, threatened, persecuted--"terrorists" or ILLEGALS or any number of other phantom enemies in the 30-second attention span substitute world of the televisual right---the righteous petit bourgeois is always beset with persecuting Others and now here is another. if only all the persecuting others could be made to go away, everything would be right and ritgheous in the land. i know this because i hear it repeated again and again and again in tiny little arguments fit with arbitrary video clips repeated over and over in little pockets of infotainment that dot the 500 channel wasteland of television. racism in the united states has a history and that history is central to the history of the united states and that history is in many many ways ugly and destructive and problematic and that history continues to shape and reshape the present and not all of this produces the Universal Assent reflected in the YAY AMERICA statements that the limbaugh-right would have you believe are the only acceptable forms of statements that can be made about this the best of all possible countries in the best of all possible economic orders in the best of all possible worlds. structural problems? what they fuck are they? cant talk about structure in a 30-second video clip repeated ad infinitum on the 24/7 infotainment channel of your choice. it is easy to go on in this way--but personally i think the fact that huckabee---HUCKABEE--effectively called bullshit on this one should give even the most faithful television-oriented limbaugh-style conservative pause. this line of objection to this "issue" has nothing to do with obama per se, and has been running throughout the thread.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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03-20-2008, 09:13 AM
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#264 (permalink) |
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Ambling Toward the Light
Location: The Early 16th Century
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Please don't misunderstand roachboy...I still consider this "issue" a real issue. While I can understand Wright's anger and I can support his right to that anger, I feel very deeply that has a community leader it is his responsibility to handle that anger better than he apparently has. The words of black ministers carry powerful impact in the community and preaching a divisive message such as he has (Obama admitted this outright so it is really above discussion at this point) is, IMHO, nothing short of irresponsible.
Just as I would consider it irresponsible coming from a white minister in a white Christian church, a white priest in a white Catholic church, a white Rabbi in a Jewish synagogue or a Muslim mulla in a mosque. I was speaking more to Obama's handling of this issue. He had many options here and I think he did an excellent job overall in his track on how to deal with it. Are there gaps in how he handled it? Sure. But at this point there would be gaps in how anyone handled it and that is just a fact of life. When the rubber meets the road, we the people have no way to know for sure what is going on in any candidate's head and heart at this point. Some things must be taken on faith until such time as the candidate has proven with his or her final record what they truly believe. I just think that anyone who did not consider Tuesday a darn good day for Obama and a pretty good day for American in general is so firmly rooted in their political beliefs so as to be completely closed. I think the true political center had to look at what was said and be moved positively by it and that is coming from a guy who has traditional been a centrist but right leaning centrist who has never voted for a Democrat for President.
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SQL query SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue > 0 Zero rows returned.... |
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03-20-2008, 09:54 AM
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#265 (permalink) | |
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Banned
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I find myself becoming more isolated, because I go through a "what could they be thinking process", to try to determine what another person has to (should probably) deliberate about.....or something else....before they are able and motivated to post about who and/or what they support. I just went through that kind of an exercise in trying to put together a response to SirSeymour, as I've done it, for example, in the circumstances of John McCain planning the life changes that pulled him out of the Navy into a new life in Arizona. circa 1981. McCain at the time, was an Annapolis grad, career Navy officer, from a family line of Naval flag officers. He has plans to remarry and settle in a new state, the home turf of his bride to be. I try to put myself in his place, about to resign from the Navy, and I have a job offer from my new father in law to be, the 12th wealthiest man in Arizona. It's a big leap, new wife, new career; what's up with my fiancee's father, Jim Hensley. How did he become so wealthy and successful, I've only known a working life in the Navy, who is my new boss, what will it be like, working for him? I ask around, about the man. I'm told he was convicted of a federal felony, related to his long term employment with the most prominent native Arizonan organized crime figure. I find that he worked for the guy along with his brother, also arrested, convicted, but sent to federal prison in the same case. I'm told that he was arrested a second time a few years later, on similar work related charges, and that the charges against he and his brother were dropped, and soon after, they bought a New Mexico horse racing track together, along with an acquaintance who also worked for the same organized crime boss. I'm told that my father-in-law to be's brother was convicted two more times on tax evasion charges, and served a total of the 3 stints in federal prison. I'm also told that the organized crime boss that the brothers worked for is reported to be the man who ordered the car bombing that murdered a prominent investigative reporter from the local newspaper, who had written "stuff" like I just described, about the Hensley brothers old boss. I think about how I would react to all of that....would I still give up my Navy career and go to work as VP of PR at Hensley's beer distributorship, or would I marry his daughter, stay in the Navy, and look for other career opportunities. Next, I think about how, if I were McCain, I would not go through a process of inquiry like I just described, before resigning from my Navy career and accepting the new job offer. I can't imagine that I wouldn't ask questions and check my father-in-law to be's background and reputation out...after all, there would be so much riding on working for him, and being newly married to his daughter, vs. marrying his daughter and keeping my current job. Since I cannot imagine that McCain didn't go through a process of inquiry, I have to conclude that either he compromised his ethics by going from being a former POW and Naval officer from a Navy family, to working for Hensley and allowing him to be the principle financial backer of McCain's initial congressional and senate campaigns, or McCain was too incurious a person for me to imagine being president of the US. Today, I try to put myself in SirSeymour's place, posting what he did about McCain and about not leaving Iraq in the state that it is in. I have no idea what "fixing Iraq", via "staying the course", keeping our military there for "50 or 100 years" as McCain recently talked about, means, or would look like. I have no idea, given what I've posted about McCain on this forum over the last six weeks, what the process is that minimizes what I wrote about McCain's inquiry and decision making processees, above. McCain looks to be promising policies that will make the transition from Bush, almost imperceptible. I try to put myself in the place of those who buy the "hate minister" attack "Op". That's probably easiest one for me to examine. If they are filling page after page in support of it at townhall.com, and "blanketing" the airwaves of Salem Comm's 1600 station strong, talk and news radio network, I'm on the opposite side of whatever idea they're trying to sell. Now, for Obama, or any of the candidates. If they've come out in support of increasing the size of the US military or the amount of military spending, I cannot support such a candidate. If they've come out in support of that, and they still talk about increasing spending on health care coverage or other domestic programs, I can't even listen seriously, because without cuts in military and in other intelligence/security related spending, there is no money to do anything discretionary. I am sure others go through different exercises to decide what they support strongly enough to share with us here, but so, far, I am not able to put myself in their places and see how they get where they get, in forming their opinions. I am trying to get used to feeling as isolated, politically speaking, as I know I am becoming. I would have to ignore or minimize more than I'm willing to, if I am to share in a fellowship with "likeminded" members who often post here. Last edited by host; 03-20-2008 at 09:57 AM.. |
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03-20-2008, 10:15 AM
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#266 (permalink) | |
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The Death Card
Location: EH!?!?
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 The hypocricy honestly made me laugh out loud... My boss is wondering why I'm not working now... Thanks
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Feh. |
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03-20-2008, 10:52 AM
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#267 (permalink) |
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Junkie
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Isn't it funny - there was, at an earlier juncture, fear that Obama might secretly be a Muslim in some quarters.
Yet it his association with a Christian church that has gotten him into trouble.
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Si vis pacem parabellum. |
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03-20-2008, 10:53 AM
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#268 (permalink) |
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Lover - Protector - Teacher
Location: Seattle, WA
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host, that was one of the best replies you've ever written - so honest, so you. I at least understand where you're coming from, now, it not fully agreeing with you.
__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel |
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03-20-2008, 11:20 AM
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#269 (permalink) |
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Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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host---thanks for the post. very interesting stuff. i'll put up something in response later, when i've a bit of time to devote to it.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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03-20-2008, 12:08 PM
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#271 (permalink) |
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Upright
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First and foremost, the ignorance of judging a man by what someone else says is extreme to say the least. Senator Obama deserves better. Judging a Preacher man for a few snippets of his sermons run on a loop is ridiculous. And reducing this historical election into "hitman" politics as usual is insanity. Speaking as a Canadian whose ancestors moved north from Oklahoma and Texas to escape Jim Crow, I can honestly say I'm not even sure what all the fuss about the comments of the good Reverend is all about. Why all the shock and outrage??? To call him racist just exposes the idiocy of a line of thought shared by so many white americans. Is it so surprising that a man such as this who represents a HUGE segment of the black community might have some lingering anger/disgust/distrust for a country with so much potential that does so much damage. A country which allowed blacks to fight and die for it but still treated them as second class citizens. A country with ridiculous wealth and power but who doesn't care for all of her people. I'm beginning to think that it is the discomfort and uneasyness that these comments give rise to that causes so many to get all indignant. He said God would damn america for its misdeeds. That's preacher talk if I've ever heard it. Jesus and so many prophets before him said similar things about the ruling class in their time. He said America is run by rich white people. Ummmm...what's so untrue about that? Clearly most whites don't feel very priveleged these days but Barack adressed this masterfully. Rev. Wright apparently made claims that AIDS was introduced to wipe out the blacks. Would it be shocked if it were true? They gave the Indians Small Pox didn't they? And does anyone remember the Tuskegee Syphillis experiments?? Guess who the victims were in that one? He said that Crack Cocaine was brought in to the ghetto by the CIA. That's not a new allegation and it certainly wouldn't surprise me. http://www.finalcall.com/features/cia-dope.html
Maybe it's just cuz I'm black and my brethren were on the receiving end of so much of this. What about his comments about American foreign policy? Would you argue that the good ol US of A hasn't been up to some evil shenanigans worldwide for years?? What about Iran Contra? What about Chile or Haiti? What about giving Saddam those horrible WMD's to use in the first place? What about Nagasaki & Hiroshima? More recently what about trying to overthrow our good friend Chavez in Venezuela?? What about it? Wow. Solid track record. And yet...so much indignance and patriotism. Is it fair to judge the USA and it's people only on the evil that it has perpetrated on the world at large? To condemn the states for its oil/blood thirsty nature without looking at how much good they have done? How many people they've helped over the years? I don't think so. But why is it ok to do it to a man whose whole life has been the service of his country and his community? I can only speculate that its easier to throw stones than it is to look inward. You might not like what you see. |
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03-20-2008, 12:28 PM
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#272 (permalink) | |
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Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Quote:
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling |
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03-20-2008, 02:25 PM
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#273 (permalink) |
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pigglet pigglet
Location: Locash
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I've been watching this thread, and the similar runs of discourse all across main-stream news outlets, for the past few days now...and honestly all I can say is "what the fuck?" I don't get it. I was looking at cnn.com earlier today...a story about a woman who was killed by an eagle, a little bit about the michigan/florida situation, something about a good recipe...and about 18 stories about the inflammatory remarks of Wright, and whether Obama can overcome his association, and whether this tanks his race...from my perspective, this is sad. I don't understand how people can be watching the first Presidential race involving a "Black" candidate...and be surprised that someone, somewhere, in his association has some militant commentary that has been captured on video. And recycled..ad nauseum. My experience is that if you get 10 educated black people together, at least one of them will have perspectives that are similar to those represented in the remarks of Wright. There is anger in the black community over the traditional treatment of black people in American society, and I find it disingenuous to expect that people are really shocked...SHOCKED!!!...that someone Obama is close to has these remarks. That it could possibly be a black minister from the South side of of Chicago! What are the odds? I think a lot of Americans, predominantly white Americans, were a lot more comfortable with Obama as a caricature of an anesthetized semi-black man...someone full of love and carefully hopeful messages of color-blind reconcilliation. Someone who would help them feel like our society was off the hook for our history of racial discrimination. I don't understand how people are surprised by this...I'd be more surprised if something like this didn't come out. It seems to me like people are just waking up to the fact that we have a black presidential candidate...and maybe...just MAYBE...race will be a factor....who'd a thunk it? Maybe the nasty issues of race and socio-economic status will come in play at some point...oh noes! Obama is a real person? With real personal and professional relationships...and they're not all cookie-cutter clean? Everyone he knows isn't dancing in the streets and holding hands singing Kumbaya? Holy shit - I personally am completely disillusioned. We're going to have to deal with real racial issues just because we have a black guy running for President? Fuck that! Pass the potato chips and turn American Idol back on...I heard the little 17 year old kid was going to be doing an awesome kareoke cover of an Elton John song this time to really shake it up! This whole thing stinks of political hitpiece...whether it be from a Clinton supporter, or a McCain supporter...
As to the comparisons to Haggee or Robertson, I think that's a simplified perspective as well. Yes, they are fuckwads. No, I don't want them having any more power over American politics than they already do. Do I think that parallels can be drawn between their statements and those of Wright? Sure. But I find their perspectives to be primarily ludicrous. Without historical perspective - at least in the calls to support Israel at any cost, and to take over American social landscapes with their fundamentalist interpretations of Christian theology. From what I've read, I can understand this guy's perspective. Racial discrimination of black Americans isn't that long in the past - in its more overt forms, and is easily argued as ongoing in present-day society. This Wright guy is skeptical? Where in the dickens did that come from? I'm not particularly an Obama supporter, although at this point I'd prefer him over either Clinton or McCain. Watching people having their perspective of him dramatically changed by this makes me want him to win even more. I can't believe this is changing the poll numbers among Democrats. Coupled with the pre-fabricated fiasco with the delegates from Michigan and Florida...I can actually see this being the deciding factor in his run for the nomination...and I think that's sad.
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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style |
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03-20-2008, 03:59 PM
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#274 (permalink) |
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Psycho
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The saddest part is what someone, { either Host or Pan? I can't remember which and I apologize}, a few pages back alluded to and that is we are facing many more important issues as a country and the one thing garnering the most attention is the great racial divide. Shouldn't we be talking about our housing and sub prime mortgage crisis? Shouldn't we be discussing the tremendous national debt that grows astronomically every single day? Or how about 4 dollar gas just around the corner that will further wreak further havoc on our already weak economy? Shouldn't we as a people be forciing the candidates to tell us something concrete instead of the generic "change" we all hear every 4 years? Both parties have used this to take attention away from what really ails this great country and that's the really truly sad part of this whole thing.
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03-21-2008, 04:30 AM
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#275 (permalink) |
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Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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I just found something really interesting. I've been wondering what would happen if we had the full context that surround the "vicious racist anti-American" sound bytes we've heard on high-frequency loop on the news.
Here's a 10 minute clip of Wright's post-9/11 sermon, from which the "chickens come home to roost" quote is lifted. I urge you--no matter your "already" feelings on the matter--to take 10 minutes and watch this, and see if you don't come away with a different impression of the man. I certainly did. <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/QOdlnzkeoyQ&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/QOdlnzkeoyQ&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object> |
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03-21-2008, 05:15 AM
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#276 (permalink) |
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Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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You know...I already didn't think his comments were all that wrong. Tactless, maybe, but not wrong.
Now, I'm not even sure they were tactless, put in context. Thanks for the video. I've sent messages to CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News (I know, but it doesn't hurt to try) notifying them of this video and urging them to report on the full context of Rev. Wright's sermon. I encourage everyone else to do the same. It's extremely rare for contextual developments or corrections to ever become nearly as widespread as original stories, so it will take a great deal of work to expose people to the proper context. As a side note...knowing now that the "chickens coming home to roost" was a direct reference to Malcolm X, and considering the standard white opinion of Malcolm X (which entirely ignores the direction he began to move near the end of his life, much like we ignore the direction Martin Luther King, Jr. was going as well), I am increasingly suspicious that this was no less than an intentional, and racist, hit job.
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling Last edited by SecretMethod70; 03-21-2008 at 05:35 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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03-21-2008, 05:45 AM
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#277 (permalink) |
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Junkie
Location: Ontario, Canada
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I'm stumped as to why people find that video objectionable. Millions of Americans - black, white, latino, rich and poor, powerful and weak - have said the exact same things over the past several years.
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Si vis pacem parabellum. |
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03-21-2008, 05:49 AM
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#278 (permalink) | ||
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Living in a Warmer Insanity
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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Quote:
Quote:
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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club Last edited by Tully Mars; 03-21-2008 at 05:54 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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03-21-2008, 06:11 AM
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#279 (permalink) | |
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Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Quote:
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling |
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03-21-2008, 06:24 AM
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#280 (permalink) | |
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Living in a Warmer Insanity
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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Quote:
If Fox puts this in any factual context I'll buy you a beverage of your choice... in the city of your choice. And yes, I'll pick up the cost of the beverage and the travel.
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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club |
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| jeremiah, rev, wright, wrong |
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