matthew330

My reaction to roachboy's post was as dismissive and irrelevant as his was to this thread, with the exception is wasn't veiled in collegiate language. The conservativeland reference is old and meaningless and intentional. It is meant to end a conversation that's not going the way you want it to.

Your post was more overtly insulting toward Seaver and deserved my response, so again...not impressed by your sudden "feigned" disappointment in my attitude.

dc_dux

matthew....I think enough has been wasted on what most here consider a non-issue, with the exception of those who would never vote for Obama or probably any Democrat.

But if you want to keep regurgitating the same old argument again and again....thats your right.

Thats what makes this country great

Ironically, its posts like Seaver's...:
....that are common among the right wing who get their panties in a knot when, God forbid, someone on the left express an unpopular opinion.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

matthew330

Good point. Isn't what makes the TFP great is if you have nothing to say about the thread topic at hand (because it's a non-issue or otherwise), you hit the back button?

Insisting it's a non-issue, and pointing out to me your friends here think so to, doesn't make it one.

dc_dux

BtW....what makes you think the conversation hasnt gone the way we (host, mm, secretmethod, etc) wanted?

You havent even convinced some conservatives and libertarians here with your argument that Obama is unfit to serve as president because of his pastor. You've been exposed for the guilt by association that you insist on perpetrating....because you, as someone who would never vote for Obama anyway, insist on making it an issue.

You've only convinced yourself and thats no loss to the Obama campaign.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

matthew330

I never said Obama is unfit, and you've successfully derailed this thread into meaningless bickering about what you think the "rest of you" think.

...and that is why the conversation hasn't gone the way you wanted. No one likes to be pushed into that corner.

dc_dux

The conversation has gone pretty much the way I expected because you (and others) have provided nothing to support your contention...whatever the hell it is now.

Did you read my post about the Obama demographics? Can you point to anything that says this stink about the church/pastor is influencing their decisions or is likely to in Nov?

You guys continue to make the same argument, again and again, and provide nothing to substantiate it. Why is that?

Host provides links that demonstrate how this has been perpetrated by right wing sites.

I provide data that demonstrates how race and the church/pastor has not been an issue for democrats or independents.

secretmethod provides articles that attempt to put it in context.

and you guys provide THE VIDEO..and say...SEE!

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

matthew330

You lost yourself. See the OP for my point.

dc_dux

What did I miss in the OP:

Hell...you havent even convinced good conseratives like aceventura or good libertarians like flstf (forgive me if I am mischaracterizing your political persuasion) that this is the case. Go back and read their posts.

ace: This is a non-issue. I understand the mental midget, Sean Hannity from Fox making an issue of this, but I am surprised by others who are.

flstf: There are many things about Obama's policy positions that I disagree with but I don't think we should judge him by his old reverend's remarks

Or are you just pointing to THE VIDEO again?

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

matthew330

This is boring. You need the last word more than me....enjoy.

dc_dux

the old "boring" standby defense when you cant explain your own position.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

matthew330

precisely

...last word. I win!!

roachboy

huh...and to think i was about to explain my posts to the little dear.


**what** a disappointment that i don't have to.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Ustwo

I blame poor nutrition and recreational drug use.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

matthew330

convenient timing, roach. Nice job getting this thread back on track and not taking the opportunity to belittle someone. If i didn't know better, I'd almost say you waited for it.

One hell of a moderator.

powerclown

Wow, its all over the news today, too.

Willravel

Topic: Reverand Jeremiah Wright.... and go!

matthew330

hehe---thanks Will.

mixedmedia

Oh, believe me, I am not disappointed with your attitude one bit.

Seaver stated that the only reason someone like me would say the things I do is to 'be popular.' I think my response was totally appropos.

Veiled in collegiate language? What exactly does that mean? I think he stated what he meant pretty clearly.

Well, I eat very well and, frankly, I've gotten much worse since I stopped smoking pot.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

flstf

He does inspire people and has managed to get much more support from white groups than I thought he would. I think his personal demeanor and inspirational oratory skills have brought many to support him. Heck, I disagree with almost all his policies except health care and the war but I can't help but like the guy. Maybe it has something to do with his underdog status and over coming the negatives I mentioned previously.

I think he may have somewhat of a problem with some women voters in the Democratic primary though. They have been waiting for years to elect Hillary and see their chances being dashed by this brash newcomer. From what I have read in some of their blogs this has resulted in almost hatred towards him and are trying to use anything including the reverand's remarks against him.

The funny thing is, Hillary and him agree on almost all the important policy positions and yet there are some who say they will not vote for him if he is the nominee. I think this has a lot more to do with the fact he is beating Hillary than anything about his qualifications.

matthew330

Okay, this is getting a bit ridiculous and personal. I didn't mean to but into your and Seaver's argument. I wasn't speaking of you in particular. I was making a reference to the old "if you're under 30 and a repub you have no heart, over 30..." It seemed like an appropriate time to make a light hearted attempt at political humor that may not have come across that way.

With regard to roach's response I meant what I said. He never addressed the OP directly and defaulted to conservativeland speak. We all know what he thinks about consertvativeland already. This thread is about Reverend Wright, what he said, and whether or not Obama's response to being 20 years in his company is adequate.

There's two components to this:

1. Are you defending what the preacher said? If so, do it directly. I know what roach thinks about conservativeland. Even if there's historical context to it to what Wright said and it can be justified with hours of historical debate, there is a vitriole to that tone that is not appropriate or rationale in this day and age for a president who subscribes to thought, IMO.

2. Are you with Obama in denouncing what he said? If so, isn't it a reasonable question to ask how he tolerated it and contributed to it financially for 20 years.

dc_dux

I agree that Obama will need to mend fences.

But he will have lots of ammunition.

For the women who supported Hillary, he has this:

In 1999, McCain said he didn't want to see Roe v. Wade overturned because it could force "women in America to [undergo] illegal and dangerous operations."

Today, McCain says repeal of the landmark abortion rights Supreme Court decision "wouldn't bother me any."

and Iraq....these women dont want their sons and husbands serving in Iraq for another 8 years.

I think its reasonable to assume he "tolerated" it because he look at the greater good that the church accomplished in the Chicago community which, as far as I have seen. is where nearly all the financial contributions went.

Most religious leaders in Chicago and the overwhelmingly white national United Church of Christ "tolerated" it because, they too, respected and valued the work of the church in Chicago and other communities around the country that its resources supported.

IMO, its "intolerant" to only looking at one aspect of a person's life and work and make judgments, particularly without understand the context of the black experience in the history of the US.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Seaver

Um... reading your posts in the first page and what you just typed is astonishing.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

dc_dux

Thanks...I have that effect on some conservatives

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

roachboy

i was serious that i do not think this "issue" is an issue at all.
even less is it a legitimate point of departure for a serious discussion about the issue of racism in the united states.

what there is to be said, dc has been saying to you repeatedly, matthew.
i also noted that i thought the editorial that smeth posted on the last page pretty much did away with this matter.

what i have put up here is a perfectly reasonable position to adopt relative to this non-issue. and i find the logic behind making it into an issue to be---um---problematic.

i have offered to debate these questions---but in another thread--because i really do find this a non-issue, discussing any further the deeper problems that it raises elevates it to a place it should not be, treats it as legitimate as a point of departure, when it is not.
this "issue" is nothing.
so there we are.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

robot_parade

So, a little late to the party, but I finally got around to listening to the videos in the thread.

For the second video, the one about the tax issues with the church, I can see how that might be an issue for the church, and it sounds like the pastor crossed the line as far as endorsing a candidate, but that's an issue *for the church* and for the pastor, not obama at all. Unless he somehow conspired or asked to be endorsed from the pulpit. And, really, that sort of thing is pretty darn common, to be honest. Not that I'm defending it.

Now, the really meaty one - the first video. I think the pastor crossed the line a bit, but, to be honest, not by very much. Do you believe in a Righteous God that damns those who do evil? Then it follows pretty well that if America does evil things, God may damn us for them. Starting the Iraq war could very well be viewed as an evil thing, and we might therefore expect such a God to damn us for it.

This is exactly the same logic as Pat Robertson, the Hagee guy that McCain got to endorse him, and similar preachers use to say that America is damned for allowing gays, muslims, catholics and whatnot go on living. I don't agree with either sentiment, but, really, if I had to pick, I'd pick the God who damns an entire country for going to war for no good reason resulting in hundreds of thousands of deaths over the God that damns a country for allowing dudes to marry dudes.

Also, notice that the first video is clearly a hit piece, assembling choice inflammatory quotes without any of the context.

Add to this the fact the Obama has already denounced these views, and this is not much of an issue for me - it is still somewhat of one, because I do think the people who one chooses to associate with say something about a person, and I think some of Rev Wright's views are inflammatory and unhelpful.

This article sums it up pretty well, and raises the point once again that neither Clinton or McCain are questioned on their religious views as strongly has Obama has been:

http://themoderatevoice.com/religion...remiah-wright/

mixedmedia

1.Well, first of all, I do not watch television news so I have not been exposed to hours upon hours of clips and whatnot, but I have watched the clips posted on this thread and I can say with absolute honesty that I don't have a problem with what the Rev is saying. Some of it is angry and I can certainly understand that. And I believe most of it to be true.

And I think that rb's references to 'conservativeland' are totally appropriate given that angry black men tend to drive them up into high gear - a state in which they can conveniently disregard anything actually being said and concentrate on his or her 'vitriol.'

I understand this man's vitriol. He is an old black man in America. My parents are old white people from the south and they understand why he is angry.

Obama is a full-grown educated man who is perfectly able to speak for himself and hold his own beliefs. I have listened to and been influenced by all kinds of people. My own mother is quite a bit more radical in her beliefs than I am. Yet, somehow I managed not to be just like her.

2. I am with Obama doing whatever he has to do to mediate this 'nontroversy.' (I love that.) I am not so naive to think that campaigning for the presidency is an exercise in free-thought, pure expression of one's beliefs and skipping through dandelions. But I am not at all threatened by this issue, by an Obama presidency or the Rev. Jeremiah Wright.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

powerclown

Would you say the same thing about the Minister Louis Farrakhan too (also a member of this church)?

mixedmedia

Minister Louis Farrakhan has said things that I don't agree with, but I don't see how that is relevant. And, for the record, Louis Farrakhan has, at times, said things that I do agree with. Hmmm, I imagine other people, maybe even other people who attend that church, might feel the same way.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

powerclown

I'm sure you've heard of the concept, "guilty by association", yes? You see no issue whatsoever with Obama being associated with these 2 individuals for 20 years? No issue at all with Obama throwing both these guys under the bus (20 years!) now that the light is being shone upon them? I don't think its as much a matter of being threatened by an Obama presidency as being curious about who this guy is and what makes him tick.

I wonder how many people here have read Obama's book, "The Audacity of Hope"?

dc_dux

Minister Farrakhan (of the Nation of Islam) been a member of this church? Since when? And what association has Obama had with him for 20 years?

Since neither "fact" is correct, this is approaching Obama being guilty by second degree of association.

I'm also curious how Obama's disagreement with and disavowal of their more controversial remarks is "throwing them under the bus"? Again, it appears to be holding Obama to different standards then other candidates.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

mixedmedia

I see no issue. Right. Guess what. I'm an old-fashioned liberal with a lot of sympathy for angry black people. Boo!

It doesn't scare me. I don't feel threatened by it. I feel that it's normal and acceptable considering our past and its lingering effects on our present day reality.

And there is no evidence that Obama had any significant relationship with Louis Farrakhan and certainly no evidence that he subscribed to his beliefs. This is really getting ridiculous now. All of a sudden Rev. Wright by himself's not menacing enough, I guess.

Doh! That's right.

Is there any evidence that the Muslim leader of the Nation of Islam is a practicing Christian in Rev. Wright's church?

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

dc_dux

I'm waiting for the story below (which I assume was initially posted somewhere as satire) to catch on as a serious issue with the right wingers next.



Obama's campaign website (photo 8)

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

powerclown

Starting to sound suspiciously like white guilt to me.

Sorry, Farrakhan not a member of the church...was honored by the church, by Wright, with the church's highest award. Regarded Farrakhan as an "Icon". That's not such a wonderful thing, imo. Yes Obama distanced himself from Farrakhan, publicly and to the satisfaction of many, and right he should have. It is what it is.

Cover of the December 2007 Church of Trinity's Magazine:

dc_dux

Maybe Spike Lee can make a new version of Six Degrees of Separation to highlight Obama's nebulous connections to every militant black in the US since his birth.

Or maybe the Swift Boaters will.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

pan6467

This is going to be a very interesting year.

We are facing a total collapse economically and yet the biggest issue for the candidates and their supporters is this, Rev Wright.

We have Shrillary and as much as I despise the thought I could actually support her I find I do. I think she is the only one with any true plan of attack to better the economy. But.... she seems to be hindered because no matter what she does to fight Obama her camp is called "racist".

Obama stands up says nothing except, "Change" doesn't have to show a single plan nor tell us what "Change" means but it seems to sell. His supporters seem to be the most fervent and fierce group because any time someone attacks him, it's racist. They can't seem to come up with any reason to vote for him except, "Change".

Then we have McCain.... misrepresented "at age 72 he is the oldest man ever to run for president." And people on Shrillary and Obama's teams seem to want to make age an issue. Well, in 1984 a man exactly 6 days younger than my grandmother ran for office... his age then was 73... Of course that was Ronald Reagan. That makes him in his reelection year, 1 year older than McCain. So McCain is not the oldest man to ever run for president.

McCain however, does seem to want to run on 2 issues, "I'm bipartisan and can work with both parties." Which is what George W Bush said in 2000 in his campaign. And McCain seems to want to say "I'm a war hero." But he has no answers to any of the issues.

The press seem to enjoy bringing up McCain Hagee, but up until very recently when they could no longer contain it never said much about Rev. Wright.

The GOP seem to be divided on McCain because he doesn't come across conservative enough, even though no one truly knows what his plans to better the country are.

The Dems are divided and in fighting because of the race card, Rev Wright and trying to figure out what the Hell "Change" truly means.

Meanwhile, the economy continues to free fall, oil continues to skyrocket, we see a shrinking middle class, we see a government totally lost and their biggest concerns seem to be "steroids in sports" and um..... well...... I'm sure there's something else... but it's not even close to a plan to help keep the economy moving forward or to secure the dollar.

I have stated in another post, the smartest thing EITHER party can do in all seriousness is LOSE this election.

And it truly has become more and more obvious to me as we watch the parties from within destroy themselves and their candidates that neither party seems to want to win. 2 of 3 of candidates (the exception being Shrillary) seem to care if they win, it seems more that they wish to make some form of statement. Shrillary, IMHO, only wants to win because she feels it is "owed" to her, yet of the 3 IMHO, she does have the only true ideas needed to campaign on.

So, where does this all leave us? It leaves us with a very interesing election year, followed by a president that will basically be doing nothing but watch us continue to fall into an economic abyss.

But all the issues and subplots and gossip and political maneuvering are making it very fun to watch and get at people's goats as they defend their candidates but have no idea what their candidates stand for... except "Change".

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Charlatan

Can we, please, dispense with the silly names, like Shrillary... they do nothing but diminish your post and make you, yourself, sound shrill.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

ratbastid

Stop making stuff up. Farrakhan isn't even Christian. Next you'll start a thread on Obama himself being Muslim, now that that's been fairly quiet for a few weeks.

mixedmedia

Is it really so hard for you guys to imagine that a living, breathing, thinking white person just doesn't think the same and come to the same conclusions as you? You have to make up reasons that amount to my deliberately stating that it's the way I think or feel for reasons of 'guilt' or 'popularity'? I don't feel an ounce of guilt for anything - I feel sympathy - I see it, I understand. And quite frankly, I haven't found my views, especially those concerning issues of race and race relations, to be that popular. In fact, I catch a fair amount of hell for them from both sides of the aisle.

How about the more obvious answer which is that I feel the same way about a lot of things as this Rev. Wright does. Can I not feel the same way, see things the same way because I am white?

*********************************

And, you know, one more thing...I'm not even that much of an Obama supporter. I have intended to vote for him from the beginning, because I do vote and I have to make a choice. But mostly, I am just disillusioned with American politics. I have no doubt that Obama is a politician just like everyone else and if he wins, he's just one moving van away from becoming another gilded disappointment 'playing the game' for 4-8 years until we do this all over again. So let's not paint me as some avid Obama supporter foaming at the mouth to protect their candidate. The good thing about not being attached is that I can speak frankly. I don't have to disavow anyone and yet I can still support whoever the hell I want to.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

ratbastid

Keep trying, folks. Keep trying.

SecretMethod70

Seriously, this willful ignorance is getting pretty tired. I've already given you the link once, but maybe you'll actually bother to do some reading this time: http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

All three of the candidates are rather clear on their issues and plans. If you want to pretend otherwise, that's your own problem, but don't try to claim the candidates haven't shown what they stand for.

Between that and "Shrillary"...and you wonder why people rarely respond well to your posts?

__________________
Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling