connyosis

Nope, not one bit. I really don't get why having different ages for drinking is cool but different ages when it comes to sex is a no no.

Dude...you have officially creeped me out...

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MSD

This is true in the US as well as England. It's mostly a myth to scare people (plus it makes for entertaining TV and movies.)

Jocke

This kind of intolerance is very common in Sweden and that is one reason I maybe will move to the Netherlands.

RetroGunslinger

As a high school guy who knows a lot of girls, I'm gonna have second that one. High school girls, especially freshmen and sophomores, are fucked up to an extreme. They don't know what they want, and they don't have the maturity to know what's best for them.

And Jocke, I do understand where you're coming from, I really do, but 13?! They'd be in the 8th or 9th grade, do you seriously remember girls from that time making smart choices?

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connyosis

Intolerance? Jesus tittyfuck man! If intolerant means not believing 13 year old should have sex (Because they're fucking 13) then yes, I guess I am intolerant.

Why should they not have sex you say? Well, simply because a 13 year old is pretty much on the same level as a labrador. They only drool less.

But fine, if you want to leave our intolerant prepubescent sex hating country by all means do.

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If atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby.

MSD

Nimetic

I guess - the only objective guide that is available in making these laws is the relative maturity, physical and mental, of the young people involved.

Now obviously... people keep maturing past 18. But I'm sure that it would be possible to graph various attributes (sounds like a joke eh, but I'm serious) and found cut-off points, ie where most development is 'complete'.

I mean to say... to me, a 25yr old is immature. But I'm sure that the rate of learning and (cough) development is much slower between 18 and 25, for example, than 11 and 18.

Fact is though.... In many countries the age is probably 18, purely and simply because that is the legal age for everything else.

My personal view? I think 18 is a fair age of consent. However I strongly support these so called 'romeo/juliet' laws. You cannot on one hand say that a child is too young to consent, but old enough to know better (and hence be guilty of a sex crime).

Derwood

I have problems with that show, if only because they are causing a huge scare about a problem that is very small.

I wish I still had the article I read that showed how few actual incidents of online sexual predator crimes there are year to year. Add in that over 50% of the arrests made are for predators accidentally talking to undercover police online instead of teenagers, and the point grows stronger. I think they said that the # of actual adult-to-teenager predatory arrests is under 500 per year.

The TV show makes you think that tens of thousands of predators are out there every night. WILL SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN????

Jocke

Yeah and it makes parents think that if their 12-year old daughter chats with a 40-year old who says he wants to have sex with her, she will agree to it.

Strange Famous

The age of consent in Netherlands is 16, I am not sure I understand your reason for wanting to move there.

There are many reasons to move to somewhere else, but I have never heard someone give such a reason as you have alluded to.

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Jocke

That's true but the attitude towards reformers is totally different.

mixedmedia

The issue for me in this whole 'age of consent' debate is that very few men over the age of 25 would pursue a relationship with a girl under the age of 18 for anything other than casual sex. They're not looking to marry them or to really date them. I'm not comfortable with young girls being the target of casual sex by grown men. That is the icky part - for me.

Therefore I am much more comfortable with laws based on an age difference, for example, an 18-year-old dating a 15-year-old is much more likely to result in a real relationship than a 40-year-old and a 15-year-old.

And I would be comfortable with a national age of consent at 17.

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Jocke

But it doesn't matter if it doesn't result in a real relationship. Maybe they just want to have sex with eachother and why ban that?

mixedmedia

I'm not sure why you want so badly to oversimplify this issue. What is simple to know and understand is the part that emotional maturity plays in cultivating a healthy sex life. Maturity and emotional maturity being two different things. I can't say that I've ever known a girl under the age of 17 who has been emotionally ready to handle casual sex and I really see no reason to encourage it.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Tully Mars

Real relationships is the determining factor here? And just how do you know whether or not it's going to develop into a "real relationship?"

I'm sorry I've read through all your arguments on this matter and they make about as much sense as a mule in a four star restaurant and seemingly just as stubborn.

Bottom line- adults should not be engaging in sexual relations with children, and yes teenagers are children.

I'm getting the feeling from reading your posts you have a thing for really young people, if so seek help before you end up seriously damaging an innocent person.

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Jocke

It is your message that doesn't make sense. In the way you are arguing, it seems like you should agree with me. "Real relationships is the determining factor here? And just how do you know whether or not it's going to develop into a "real relationship?"" I agree...

Tully Mars

I post "Bottom line- adults should not be engaging in sexual relations with children, and yes teenagers are children."

and you post

"In the way you are arguing, it seems like you should agree with me."

And I'm the one not making any sense?

Seek help.

I'm done here.

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Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

allaboutmusic

I personally think that anyone who feels that sex with a 13-year-old is ok is somewhat lacking in maturity. If that lack of maturity is because they are 15, then that is perhaps excusable, but if they are much older than that, then questions have to be asked; if their PREFERENCE is 13-year-olds, then SERIOUS questions have to be asked. I'd start with why they'd prefer someone that much younger when there are so many prospective partners available who are closer in age.

I teach at an all-girls' high school, and IMO very few of them (including those up to 16-17) have the emotional maturity to be having sex safely - and by safely I don't just mean condoms. I also think that the educational system is afraid of engaging in real discussion with young people about sex beyond biology and prevention of pregnancy and disease, which is possibly contributing to this lack of maturity.

One could argue that this has always been the case to some extent, but exposure to sex is higher than ever these days, and it is happening at a younger age. Children are more exposed and influenced by the media than ever, and of course sex is very much glamourised in the media. I think that overall this does not lead to a balanced and mature view on sex and all its consequences. It also doesn't help that most adults aren't very clued up on sexual matters either (TFP being a somewhat skewed sample).

Plan9

Yeah, I'm lost too. I can't get my ... around it.

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MSD

Seer666

Without taking a stance on this topic, I do just find it interesting that humans are the only creatures out there that, even though nature says they body is ready to go, still declare it off limets. Also, the 18 thing is a rather recent development in human history. Used to be they were married off soon as they started bleeding every month. Could it be this is only an issue because someone desided to make it so and everyone else just went along with it without asking why?

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jewels

Used to be girls didn't require an education. The USA used to belong to the Indians. Used to be a lot of things.

Evolution, civilization, growth, industrialization and changing times.

Yeah yeah so I have three daughters. Put on a mother's shoes for a moment. Would you feel comfortable with a 40-year old trying to seduce your 15 year old daughter just because she's physically mature? Or maybe it's because she's fresh and unspoiled? :nono:

On the other hand, I do feel our mores are far behind Europe when it comes to the human body. Breastfeeding and nudity are so taboo in this country (a la the Janet Jackson Superbowl fiasco) which is positively ludicrous.

I think kids have so much to contend with and so many images (I've been reading up on Culture Jamming ) to live up to that they don't know who they are until they're much older now. They have access to information but don't really comprehend it all yet.

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Ustwo

We used to die at 45 on average as well.

Our civilization in the west has basically extended childhood, well past 'bleeding time'.

Also this is a case of where whats best for the species need not be what best for the individual. Reproduction early and often was important when childbearing years were so short and death by childbirth so frequent. Now we have women in their 40's having healthy children where they used to be grandmothers at that age.

Likewise it seems many, due to the diets etc, are reaching sexual maturity earlier than they used to.

So I have no problem with 18 being the age of consent.

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The_Jazz

Is this the proper time to start citing the Old Testament for the way things used to be? Used to be a time when I could buy any of you and sell you as chattel. Used to be a time I could make you build me a pyramid. Used to be a time when I could kill you for crossing yourself with two fingers instead of three and still feel assured of my place in Heaven.

The way things used to be isn't really relavent to today.

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Derwood

who the hell would want to have sex with a 15 year old girl? give me a woman who knows what she's doing, thanks

MSD

As the guy who went to medical school, can you confirm or deny that what I posted and keep quoting is a valid statement?

Ustwo

I can't say without qualification that this is true or not. I do agree with it, I do believe it, I think it ties in well with what interests me in the evolution of sex, but I haven't looked at such studies or their validity.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

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connyosis

Wow, I agree with Ustwo. Could someone check if hell has frozen over?

I doubt that two 15 year olds having sex would cause any permanent damage to any of them (And I'm saying this without having anything to back it up, just makes sense to me), but a 30-40 year old having sex with someone that young?

Completely disregarding the yuk-factor (Since I don't see banning something just because I might find it disgusting a good idea), being in your early teens is a sensitive time, and I do think that a lot of kids that age are simply not mature enough realize the long term effects ones decisions might have. I would consider whether to fuck someone your dads age a pretty important decision, but maybe that's just me...

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Jocke

Why would I seek help? I don't understand this attitude that is like: "Either you want to cut off the genitals of the pedophiles or you are a pedophile yourself."

smooth

I think if MSD wants to continue reposting an official stance from the medical community, he should at least provide some references to peer reviewed journals making such a ludicrous claim.

To Ustwo's credit, at least he said he's never seen such a study or been able to assess its validity...even though he personally believes the claim to be true.


Right on the face of it, there is nothing that indicates the medical community thinks "18" has any special developmental significance. In terms of decision making process centers in the brain, they aren't well developed until 25...so if it were due to physiology then we'd have to change our age limits far beyond what people would consider appropriate. I'm talking about sex, driving, drinking, voting, and etc. to bring current age limit legislation on various life consequence decisions in line with what modern science understands about the human brain and human development (which isn't much, btw).


Jocke, if you are interested in an enlightened position on sex between minors and adults, there is at least one country which doesn't come to mind at the moment that has established a tribunal where partners can come before a magistrate and "show" the nature of their consensual relationship and if successful may proceed with their relationship on a sexual level.


What you will find is that many people are uncomfortable about this subject. But where you will find support for the position that age of consent laws are barbaric and fundamentally unfair would be in modern feminist literature, for one. Nearly all laws assume the young female is the one absent the ability to make choices (and you see that fairly deep cultural belief articulated in many posts against you). Young men are often celebrated by their fathers and friends when they cross the sexual threshhold. That is, unless it's with another male. And despite how "ew'd" people claim to be about the topic, the name of the porn game is to make young actresses and models appear as young as possible. Some of the most popular threads in the sexuality section appear to be pre-pubescent teens or barely legal children ready and willing for sex. The irony is that since it's legal, it's ok for older men (predominantly) to leer and masturbate at these children while insulting you for voicing the non-wrongness of it out loud.

You will also find that not many people would be offended by say a MILF having lesbian sex with a "Barely Legal" or shaving the pubic hair off an asian female made to look like she's 16 (or younger) in a photo shoot. In Japan, it's popular to buy "school girl" panties from vending machines.

So I think you're broaching a difficult and controversial topic and kudos for keeping a level head when people can't maintain their composure in light of the gravity of the subject matter.

In terms to one of your main questions, there are a number of extremely serious offenses that are coming out of these types of offenses. Almost all states now will label these men as sex offenders and make some type of public availability to their names and addresses. Mandatory minimums are being passes in nearly all states currently due to the politization of the topic. Life sentences. Our supreme court just recently put some common sense back into the legal stream of consciousness by rejecting death penalties for sexual crimes against children.

It's definately something that needs to be discussed and thought about.

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Poppinjay

This one time, at band camp...

It's an interesting topic, even if creepy at times. All through my 20's, I was hit on by girls age 13+. Most of the time, my reaction was, "what the hell is wrong with you?" In one case, the 1/2+7 rule applied, so, lucky me.

Regional differences apply. I grew up in the rural south, and there was always a group of girls at my high school dating guys in their 30's (especially if they had a totally rad Camaro). When I lived in Kansas, guys outnumbered women 2-1 in the western part of the state. Out of neccesity, 30 to 40 year old farmers would match up with girls in their late teens. Kansas, by the way, ranks 5th in the nation for age related sex crimes. It's been brushed under the rug until Carla Stoveall became AG.

For the record, I am married to somebody born on the exact same day as me, so I'm not a perv, or at least that kind of perv.

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Tully Mars

1/2+7 rule?

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The_Jazz

Half your age plus seven is an appropriate partner. If you're 40, you can date a 27 year old (40/2 = 20 + 7 = 27) without it being creepy.

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JumpinJesus

You said what was in my mind better than I could, so I'll just quote you and say, "nice post."

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Tully Mars

Never heard of it. So, it's not a legal thing, just a social norm?

Personally (I'm 45) if some one in their twenties shows interest it kind of creeps me out. Part of that could be having a duaghter in her 20's and some of that could be working with sex offenders in a group setting (every Thursday night for 5 years or so, I took a transfer mainly/partly(?) due to this.)

So I guess I'd be good if she was 29 1/2, but I really would rather she be 35+

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Derwood

They need to bring that show back but fill it with female middle school teachers who think they're going to a house to bang one of their students

Tully Mars

Am I the only one that thinks it's fucked up that the MS teacher in Fl only basically only got probation? Think it was five years probation and some house arrest. Granted she was hot and I'd have done her in MS too. But if some "hot" male teacher got caught banging his female student he'd be grabbing his ankles in the prison shower for the next 10-15 years.

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angelpain

I tried to read as far as i could of this disturbing thread. The whole time shaking my head. I'm a Paralegal and i'm back in school studying criminal justice and in one of my crim classes we has spent out of the 3 hours of this class on the subject of that crapass show and the website that participates in the stings to lure these schmucks to the house. I think that anyone foolish enough to unzip their pants and take a 13 year old is a dumbass. I detest shows like that that they to open the eyes so small minded fools into believing that this type of crime is the norm. Unfortunately, this type of crime get more publicize because The State needs to make an example of one loser to scare the future pedophiles from committing this type of crime. It's the reason why Magan's Law has become a tool to punish pedophiles ( for those that need to reference Megan's Law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

And I don't mean to single you out Jocke but it's single minded people like yourself that neglect to realize that in this world to let a 13 left to decide for themselves whether they should spread their legs or bend over and let someone take them. Immoral for someone older that know right from wrong knows what they are doing is illegal and could get caught. For that person to wear the scarlet letter of being forever known as a pedophile and unfortunately the cost one pays for committing such a haneness crime. And it is punishable in every country, state etc. it does matter where you live this crime is global. example here are a few sites

Child abuse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.cesdip.org/IMG/pdf/PI_03_1996.pdf

I, personal don't believe that a 12 or 13 can truly understand that having sex comes with a lot of baggage that a child that age can't handle . What i mean by this. Most children that are sexual active right now are out in the world looking for someone that will love them because they're not getting that type of feeling at home from their parents. NO 13 OLD YEAR IS ready to make such adult decisions. I repeat no CHILD should be making babies while they're themselves have to ask their parents to drive them places or begging for money because no one hires a 13. I had recently caught myself watching to episodes of the Maury show( and I know not the best example) . the show as I see it, is hilarious but also tragic because first eppie I watched was about wild teen girls and the first thought that came to mind were all these girls were having unprotected sex half of them could care less if they end up pregnant or with an STD or even H.I.V. And thats the one thing no one here mentioned. Which I find funny. When we were all young just dreamers with this mind set that the world is ours for the conquering could all disappear into thin air. The other message I got from seeing those young girls act that way was for attention. Especially the one girl that was 14 wants to have a baby thinking that baby will instantly love her. How sad? Can I ask for those who are parents isn't the most important thing for your children being happy health and some what blind to reality and just focus on their school work, friends and what college or career they want when they reach high school. Not about whether to change a diaper or having to be the main provider because the "father" denies paternity test to prove it. As much as we all poke fun at the women the end up on the show for the millionth time just wanting their child to know that he/she has both parents in the world.
as porky pig would say thaaaattttt'ssssss alllll folks!!!

p.s if no one has picked it up i had for a year researched and studied abuse

MSD

I don't have one solid source for that. I'm basically reiterating what a psychiatrist said when this discussion happened elsewhere. If you want sources, I'll dig up some published studies and articles from respectable sources when I have time during the next few days.