Originally Posted by JinnKai

Your thread title has a question mark, but it's not a question.

It's more a "here's why I'm right, be damned if you don't agree." Perhaps it's not your meaning or your political view which leads some to call you a racist, but your tone? That same tone serves to alienate your audience and makes me (an otherwise sympathetic person who'd likely agree with you) want to disagree, because you've automatically put me on the defensive.

I think often the reasons for a political view are racist, but the view itself does not have to be. I can agree with you on "illegal aliens" without being racist, myself, but it requires a greater deal of tact to justify contentious issues surrounding race and ethnicity. I think my best advice would be to acknowledge that these are controversial issues, and unless you develop a greater degree of tact, you'll continue to be labeled a racist, regardless of truth.

I felt like I was being yelled at just reading your post, and I couldn't make it all the way through because I don't like being yelled at, nor do I like being made defensive. I wasn't even the one this was aimed at, and yet I'm turned away.

Originally Posted by willravel

Legality is a formality built on a belief. Most people believe murder is wrong, so we've made laws which punish it. Most people believe theft is wrong, so we've made laws to punish it. Something merely being illegal does not make it inherently wrong, though, it's the believe that makes that determination.

So, in other threads when we discuss that particular issue, why must you always simply say that it's wrong because it's illegal? What if giving birth were illegal or free speech?

Pan, why should undocumented immigration be illegal?

Originally Posted by pan, my version

I was recently labeled a "racist" <strike>by a few people here</strike> because of a recent post and "past posts".

Those "few people here" will read your post, and they will not agree with you. They might have a chance to agree with you, or even apologize, if you don't call them out explicitly. This statement alone is enough to make a sympathetic poster feel singled-out.

<strike>While everyone is entitled to their own opinion and none who labeled me knows anything about me other than what I post here, it made me wonder, when does a political view in your eyes become racist?</strike>

You'd be better served to omit this entire sentence. I get the feeling that you're extremely defensive about the issue. Any cognizant person doesn't want to offend someone who has (quite obviously) already been offended. You start out by saying that everyone is entitled to their opinion, which is great, but then you follow it up with "none who labeled me knows anything other than what I post here." This says "I'm unique, god damnit! And you just don't know me!" It doesn't say anything mature, and it serves to erode your position that you believe everyone is entitled to an opinion. It says "You're entitled to an opinion, unless it's about me, in which case you're wrong because you don't know a damn thing about me!

Such as ILLEGAL ALIENS.... how is pointing out that I see ILLEGALS as that and that IMHO they have no rights because they are illegal and we legals are watching our own rights erode. But that is racist. Stating that terrorists could be some of those ILLEGALS, <strike>that they have bankrupted many of our Western states medical facilities, taken jobs, committed heavier crimes and so on... means nothing. Proof be damned you are a racist and Xenophobe to demand people be actually LEGALLY here in order to get jobs and medical attention and enjoy what rights we have here.</strike>

Everything before the strikethrough is fine, save a few gramattical issues. Everything beyond that, however, is why people are calling you a racist. It's fine to state that you don't believe illegal aliens should have the same rights as US citizens, and it's likewise okay to say that terrorists might be among those here illegally. When you generalize about a group of individuals, illegal or not, you are discriminating. Whether that's racist discrimination is in the eye of the beholder, but to say "they have backgruped many of our Western states medical facilities, taken jobs, committed heavier crimes.." without backing it up with research or citation will get you labeled a racist. You wouldn't appreciate someone declaring that white men had done these things without providing some sort of evidence, and you'd probably consider THEM a racist. This is what I mean by tact - if you're going to make a sweeping generalization about something a group has or hasn't done, provide resources for the skeptical person.

<strike>I have even stated, you change the laws and I can no longer say anything... but again, that just leads to a racist label. The saddest part is they hound the label and pound it and pound it until you are no longer fighting the issue of ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION but whether or not you are a racist/xenophobic person who does strange things to cats with your fork. And you best keep your cool, don't get emotional .... even though the labeler will because you'll make a mistake, say the wrong thing because they keep twisting everything you say and then they'll have their "proof".</strike>

This doesn't really do anything for your point but make you appear defensive. If you want to gripe and get sympathy, Journals are excellent. In "discussion topics", people will see this as angst or defensiveness, and they will not generally react in support.

<strike>This is just an example, I'm sure the thread is out there but I am not going to dig for it.</strike>
This says "I'm pulling something out of my ass." If you aren't willing to look for something, why is someone going to take the time to read and believe what you have to say? Reading and agreeing with someone takes a lot longer than looking for a thread would've.


The political discussion, the opportunity to work on solutions never stood a chance.

This is a great sentence.

I realized recently.... as long as those who can keep that "racist/Xenophobic" argument alive and only have to answer any of the questions with..... "well you're racist/xenophobic" they don't have to truly think about the problem or it's solution.

This too is a good point, and I agree.

Recently, I became quite pissed because people demanded Bill Cunningham's radio job, called him racist and tried to "Imus" him... why? Not because he said "nappy headed ho" or went on some racist diatribe. No, all Bill did was at a fund raiser in Ohio for McCain, in introducing John McCain, Bill said "Barak Hussein Obama". That's it. McCain even distanced himself from the comment.

Who cares? If people want to use his middle name like that? Are you scared, someone in this country may hear the name Hussein (which is Obama's legal middle name) and not vote for the man because of that 1 reason? <strike>If so you are about as small minded as a person who would not vote for a man or woman solely because of the middle name.</strike>

The entire paragraph is a bit antagonistic, but it can stand alone without the last sentence. It does nothing but piss off someone who agrees with the people demanding his job. If you want to stand a chance in hell of understanding this person and perhaps even changing their mind about it, you <b>cannot</b> insult them. Insult someone and then ask them to believe you, and it'll never work.

To be demanding Bill Cunningham's job because of that? To me that is hateful and censorship.

That's fine and although I disagree, there's nothing wrong with this sentence.

<strike>All of a sudden I'm racist again. It's only an issue to those that are racist looking for reasons not to like Obama.... blah blah blah.... Then I really pay attention and the past week or 2 Obama supporters answer everything by bringing up race when you push political issues with them.</strike>

How is anyone supposed to discuss this with you if you mock their words with "blah blah blah"? If you want to discuss what they said, you can do it in context (that thread), or you can DIRECTLY quote them. If what they said is truly uncharacteristic or unkind, their words alone should say it. The entire thing is defensive and passive-aggressive.

Anyway, I want to know your opinion, when does political views becomes racist..... or <strike>is it just possible a certain faction of our population has been almost brainwashed to believe that any view differing from theirs must be driven by racism/xenophobia/prejudice of whatever kind they wish to utilize and try to silence that opposing view?</strike>

It's fine to present your position strongly, but again this does nothing but alienate your supportors and your detractors.

And no, the question, I admit is quite biased..... because m opinion is just that, my opinion. I am a firm believer that a certain faction has been brainwashed to believe or just so wanting to "win" yet lack anything to defend their views that all they can do is label and attack the person and not the view.

This is a much better way to say the same thing that you said in the previous paragraph. I can read it and agree with you, without feeling attacked.

Those people are scary, because they are proving they care more about what the media, what others around them think than facts and either investigating the issue so they can argue without bringing those labels in.... or just stating that they have their view and that's that.

I also realize that as long as the powers that be, the politicians and media, can keep these arguments alive no one can expect anything to get done. You can silence people into submission because they are scared they too will be labeled and no one wants labeled... not to mention have their job threatened, their lives microscoped, and so on.

Originally Posted by pan6467

I was recently labeled a "Racist" by a few people here because of a recent post and "past posts".

Originally Posted by powerclown

You know, pan, some people get offended if you fart too loudly while facing southeasterly in a 15mph headwind. Some people weep copious tears if they step on a few ants. You have your conservatives, and you have your liberals and never the twain shall meet. I've read your posts here long enough to know your not a racist, so those that called you one...eh, that's their fscking problem not yours.

Originally Posted by pan6467

You can't just label someone racist because they have questions about Obama, or xenophobic because they point out ILLEGALS are ILLEGALS... and so on. Or can you? Do you believe that everyone against ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION should be labeled? Or everyone who openly speaks out against Obama?

Originally Posted by Ustwo

We seem to be having more and more in common as time goes on pan

I mention Obama has befitted from being Black in his campaign, its racist.
I say I don't think Islam is a religion that plays well with others, its racist (though which race that is they never mention).

Its pretty much a catch all for some people who don't want to discuss a subject on its merits. As soon as the group is non-white, and especially if it involves the culture of a non-white, saying anything negative comes under the racist moniker and speaking of it is verboten.

Ignore them and soldier on

Originally Posted by pan6467

Watching someone get elected president solely because anyone speaking out against him is called racist for truly no legit reason isn't easy.

Originally Posted by jewels443

I find it ironic that you raise ILLEGALS and Obama as part of the same thought process. Maybe I missed something. I didn't bother checking the other thread (and apologies in advance if I remember incorrectly, but didn't you assume Obama was a Muslim?)

My take is that the vast majority of the residents of this country are, at the very least, descendants of immigrants. Some of our great-grandparents, grandparents or parents came here illegally, some came legally. But they all came for the same reason.

Our forefathers understood this and the originating concept was that this was to be a land of freedom. Although some of the rules have been changed whether we like them or not, it's not comfortable to see/hear your constant references to ILLEGALS ARE ILLEGAL. PERIOD.

Although you may not mean it that way, it kinda rings of racism, although I've never called you one. Between the lines, it seems to say that the stories and the people don't matter, this is my country and they don't belong.

I'm only speaking for myself here. My other responses to you remain in the other thread, so I won't bring old baggage into the mix.

Originally Posted by silent_jay

Sounds like Dubya, if you spoke out before against his war on terror you were unpatriotic or you wanted the terrorists to win, or hated America, or my favourite, 'you're either with us or against us'.

Originally Posted by pan6467

If you wish to reopen an immigration thread or start a new one cool, we can do that..... but that's not the purpose of this thread.

This thread is about being labeled for political beliefs different than your own.

Originally Posted by willravel

I didn't make my point clear enough. You made the argument that because it's illegal, it's wrong. My point is that's circular, and in fact there should be a belief to support the legality or illegality of a thing. Because you didn't argue beliefs and instead basically argued that it's wrong because it's illegal, you left a big blank as to why you think it's wrong. Some people filled in that blank with the reasoning of *other* people who make similar arguments, assuming that your beliefs were the same.

The same thing happens to me when I argue against abortion. People assume that I'm a pro-life fundy because that's the typical reasoning, but I'm special. You're special, too!

Had you explained adequately how your reasoning was not motivated by nationality, but rather something else, I think that the cries of racism would have been silenced.

Oh, and capitalizing ILLEGAL bothers a lot of people because it sounds more like an angry rant than discussion.

Originally Posted by pan6467

Again Will reopen the thread or open a new one..... THIS IS NOT THE PLACE.

Please, give your opinion on the Title question, I truly would like to hear it.

Originally Posted by Willravel

Because you didn't argue beliefs and instead basically argued that it's wrong because it's illegal, you left a big blank as to why you think it's wrong. Some people filled in that blank with the reasoning of *other* people who make similar arguments, assuming that your beliefs were the same.

Originally Posted by pan6467

First, if false points are used and brought to light with the truth there should never be a problem. The problem becomes labeling others.

SEE POST 15 ======= I'm too tired of typing the same damn thing.

Originally Posted by willravel

I answered your non-question. Why were you called racist?

Originally Posted by dc_dux

Responded to a post of false points or half truths by characterizing it as nonsense is not labeling anyone.

And I'm tired of typing the same damn thing.

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Immigration status is not a "race". I think some use the term "race" to quickly try to dismiss a point worthy of discussion rather than engaging in a meaningful exchange. There are many other labels used in a similar fashion, and I admit that I have done it to others saying something like "...is just a Bush hater..." It does get frustrating but when we get beyond those simplistic labels, occasionally there is some meaningful exchanges.

I have read a lot of what you have written Pan, and we disagree on most issues, but I don't perceive you to be a racist at all.

Originally Posted by pan6467

ILLEGAL = ILLEGAL.

Originally Posted by pan6467

If I go 100 in a 25, I am ILLEGALLY driving. I am committing a crime. I know I am committing a crime. There are punishments and consequences to my actions and I must face them and take responsibility for my ILLEGAL actions.

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Political views become racist when they refuse to recognize the basic rights, needs, and dignity of people based on their race and/or geographic origin.

It's quite simple, really.

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

Are you really expecting an answer to this question? As if there is a watermark when someone becomes a racist?

I come here just like you, pan, I speak frankly and I state my observations. In this case, observations that were not made over the course of a thread, but over the course of many threads perused over the last 2+ years. Now, I am a brainwashed tool of the media which is, I think, quite a bit more out of left field than my own observation about you. That being that I got the impression from your posting here that you have reactionary issues with race and culture that could colloquially be referred to as racist. And, like dc, I suggested that perhaps you might reflect on why it is that people are seeing you in that way. But I see you've been too busy stoking the fires of righteous indignation to bother with that sort of trivial business.

You can call me whatever you like, pan, and I will accept what is true, dismiss what is patently false, and dwell on the things that give me pause. I'm not about to start a thread decrying my labelling as a brainwashed media tool because that one I can dismiss. Perhaps you should do the same.

Originally Posted by willravel

This is why people think you're probably a racist. You refuse to explain why it's actually wrong.

This is a prime example. Why is it illegal to go 100 mph in a 25 zone? You know the answer. I know the answer: you're putting people in danger. 25 mph zones are usually residential and don't have longer curves like highways so it's easier to crash. Why is it illegal to cross our borders and to live here?

Until you answer that, your motives are still a mystery and people fill in the blank with the reason people who make similar arguments present which is usually rooted in racism or xenophobia. Not only that, but until you answer that, there's no discussion. If you said, for example, they're taking jobs, then that could be argued and countered based on facts. If you said that they steal, we could argue that on it's merits. All you say is "it's ILLEGAL". Considering that in Texas, it's against the law for anyone to have a pair of pliers in his or her possession, laws aren't the end all be all of reason. They're a response to a reason.

ILLEGAL ≠ A REASON.

BTW, I don't think you're a racist. I don't know what you have against undocumented guests, but I don't think it's rooted in racism. I suspect it may be rooted in an emotional response to something, judging by the tone of your posts, but again, I don't think you're a racist.

Originally Posted by pan6467

WILL FOR THE FUCKING LOVE OF GOD DROP IT OR OPEN A NEW THREAD.

Originally Posted by willravel

Dood, calm down.

Your thread is essentially bipolar: "Why do you guys think I'm racist? (I'M NOT A FUCKING RACIST, THEY'RE ILLEGAL...I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG... ARG!!!)" Which is it, honestly asking why people thought you may be racist, or righteous yelling and screaming and repeating your arguments from another thread?

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Political views become racist when they refuse to recognize the basic rights, needs, and dignity of people based on their race and/or geographic origin.

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Political views become racist when they refuse to recognize the basic rights, needs, and dignity of people based on their race and/or geographic origin.

It's quite simple, really.

Originally Posted by pan6467

To keep harping that I am trying to make this about me and blah blah blah... is bullshit. That would not teach us anything. That would help to solve nothing. That is not my purpose. I am trying to find out why people are quick to label, why people are quick to change the topic and instead of trying to promote a learning, positive atmosphere of sharing, when they instead create a defensive, hate filled negative atmosphere of closed mindedness.

Originally Posted by willravel

This is why people think you're probably a racist. You refuse to explain why it's actually wrong.

Originally Posted by willravel

Until you answer that, your motives are still a mystery and people fill in the blank with the reason people who make similar arguments present which is usually rooted in racism or xenophobia. Not only that, but until you answer that, there's no discussion. If you said, for example, they're taking jobs, then that could be argued and countered based on facts. If you said that they steal, we could argue that on it's merits. All you say is "it's ILLEGAL". Considering that in Texas, it's against the law for anyone to have a pair of pliers in his or her possession, laws aren't the end all be all of reason. They're a response to a reason.