host

I thought it would be a good idea to kick this thread off before he opens his mouth to communicate his first of several attmepts to mislead us or lie to us:

National Debt on 01/28/2008= <a href="http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np">$9,202,516,936,166</a>

He will tell us that the federal deficit has been reduced. He won't mention the <a href="http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/fyOps.html">$186 billion surplus</a> Social Security payroll tax receipts that were spent on federal, government operations in 2007, and are owed to the SSA trust fund, a major portiion of the actual increase in the "national debt" in the past year, part of the total borrowing in the past year of more than $550 billion, including the defict amount he "lowballs" in his speech.

Four months before he was sworn in, in 2001, the federal fiscal year ended with just $18 billion in additional federal borrowing, in the preceding 12 month period.

Here is what he told us in his first and fifth SOTU addresses:

National Debt on 02/27/2001= <a href="http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np">$5,726,968,823,821</a>

National Debt on 01/31/2005= <a href="http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np">$7,627,742,597,775</a>

He will tell us that the "surge" in Iraq is "working", even thought the reason for sacraficing the lives and limbs of addtional US soldiers in the past year, to "buy" the Iraqi government "the time to make progress" in the "benchmarks" laid out for them, the ones they agreed to in exchange for American military and financial aid. Those benchmarks have not been met, despite ratcheting them down to make it seem as if progress is being made.

He will tell us that the FISA laws, need to be modernized, because they were drafted "thirty years ago", even thought they have actually been revised to take technological advances into account, more than fifty times, including a number of times during his own presidency. He will tell us that there is a need and a justification for "telecom immunity" in that bill. None of what he says on the subject is true and accurate.

Is this the most dishonest and unaccomplished US presidency in your lifetime, or?

Ustwo

Spinning wheel spinning around. This isn't a discussion thread, just another host I hate Bush thread and quite frankly I trust him more than you.

Do you have any other hobbies? I like to fish, ever go walleye fishing?

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Elphaba

Olbermann is doing a good job of that right now. I confess, I could only listen to BS.7 for about five minutes.

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

dc_dux

Quite frankly, as the public got to know Bush, his character and his job performance, the majority opinion of Bush is closer to Host's than yours, perhaps for different reasons..or perhaps because they agree that he is a lying incompetent

Follow the trend:

Favorable (positive) or unfavorable (negative) opinion of Bush from first SOTU to last

NBC/Wall Street Journal
Jan 01 - 50% positive, 30% negative
Jan 04 - 55% positive, 37% negative
Jan 08 - 32% positive, 57% negative

Pew Research
Jan 01 - 60% favorable, 33% unfavorable
Jan 04 - 53% favorable, 46% unfavorable
Jan 08 - 36% favorable, 60% unfavorable

Fox News
Jan 01 - 58% favorable, 31%`unfavorable
Jan 04 - 54% favorable, 39% unfavorable
Dec 07 - 39% favorable, 56% unfavorable


Job performance rating - approve or disapprove of Bush's job performance after first term and today

NBC/Wall Street Journal
Jan 05 - 50% approve, 44% disapprove
Jan 08 - 31% approval, 63% disapprove

LA Times/Bloomberg
Jan 05 - 50% approve, 47% disapprove
Jan 08 - 34% approve, 62% disapprove

Gallup
Jan 05 - 52% approve, 42% disapprove
Jan 08 - 34% approve, 60% disapprove

Pew Research
Jan 05 - 50% approve, 43% disapprove
Jan 08 - 31% approve, 59% disapprove

ABC/Washington Post
Jan 05 - 52% approve, 46% disapprove
Jan 08 - 32% approve, 66% disapprove

That puts him right there with the public's opinon of Nixon in his last year in office, below Carter, and well below Reagan and Clinton (both of whom left office with ratings in the 60%+ range).

Having listened, I was checking off the lies or misrepresentations on my fingers...and toes...and needed more.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Ustwo

Yes you hate Bush, we know, I don't care, but why do you keep posting to tell us?

Thats Congresses approval rating, you conveniently forgot that.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

dc_dux

I dont hate Bush...I just think he is incompetent and immoral

BTW, you conveniently forgot that the the approval rating of Congress has ALWAYS been low. Don't you understand the difference between the two measures? Have you seen a 20-30% swing in the approval rating of Congress in the last eight year?
***

For discussion purposes for Ustwo (and anyone)...

How would you rate the SOTU today as opposed to when Bush took office, using the following criteria

economy and fiscal health - I would rate worse than before

national security - I would rate the same as before, but more aware

energy dependence - I would rate worse than before

immigration issue - I would rate worse than before

health and welfare of citizens - I would rate worse than before

America's place in the world (ie world opinion of the US) - I would rate worse than before

(add your own indicator)

My overall rating - worse than before by a wide margin

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Ustwo

Changing the subject back to the president I see.

Of course you rate it worse, its a republican president.

The economy survived a recession from the Clinton era dot com bubble, 9/11, and then its weathering a housing bubble, but of course its all Bushes fault.

Energy dependence - worse eh? The democrats don't want new drilling but other than that I don't see where you get this, but whatever its just opinion. It seems we still get our oil from abroad, maybe we are using more but thats the sign of a growing economy. Unemployment is at historic lows I might add.

Immigration - yea we still got Mexicans going over the border. Same as before.

Health and welfare - You are just guessing but I can't see where this change was, hell Bush got that perscrption drug plan passed thats better than anyone else in the last 30 years if you are into socialized medicine.

Americas place in the world - Hey they don't like us, why can't we be nice and impotent doing nothing like say Canada or Belgium. Don't care what they think just buy are stuff, sell us your stuff, and do your own thing. When America governs based on the public opinion of another nation, let me know so I can get my gun.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

dc_dux

Did you miss this or just ignore it?

BTW, you conveniently forgot that the the approval rating of Congress has ALWAYS been low. Don't you understand the difference between the two measures? Have you seen a 20-30% swing in the approval rating of Congress in the last eight year?

But I thought you were looking for a discussion about the SOTU....thanks for participating

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

host

I think the grossest misleading statements made by Bush tonight were related to his chronic push for tax cuts while he ceaselessly talks about the increasing unaffordability and rising costs of funding "entitlement programs like Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid".

Mr. Bush took office with the federal budget essentially in balance. Four months before, in Oct., 2000 the fiscal year ended with just an $18 billion increase in total federal borrowing. Social Security was sound. More than $100 billion in surplus social security payroll taxes colllected in the prior year were handed over to the SSA Trust fund, along with T-bonds representing the $18 billion borrowed from the surplus collected, to fund government operations.

As I've pointe out in another recent thread, the federal debt will increase by $700 billion in the current fiscal year, ending on 9/30/08. The borrowing will include all of the more than $186 billion collected in surplus Social Security payroll taxes, a $200 billion budget deficit, and Mr. Bush's new $150 billion tax rebate economic "stimulation" proposal. In the seventh year in the war in Afghanistan, and the fifth year of war in Iraq, the $700 billion in new debt will be rounded out with the addition of borrowing to pay for $175 billion in "supplemental approrpiations" to fund war operations. These appropriations are not budgeted because, this way, they don't factor into the amount announced as the annual budget deficit.

Mr. Bush's tax cuts and war spending are bankrupting both the federal government and the SSA trust fund, and he is not willing to change a thing. He's announced the withdrawal of a few thousand troops from Iraq, but he is sending more troops to Afghnistan, bolstering the US force there to 30,000.

<h3>Mr. Bush has not used the term "national debt" in years.....</h3>

There were warnings, more than a year before Bush became president, that a large tax cut (much smaller, though. than the ones Bush succeeded in implementing), was not realistic, since it would result "in much larger non-Social Security deficits". That warning was during a period when sound fiscal management had resulted in no "non-Social Security deficit". Currently the "non-Social Security deficit" is at least $200 billion annually, not including additional borrowing to fund at least $120 billion in "supplemental appropriations" for funding war operations, and the $186 billion in Social Security payroll tax receipts, not counted as part of the annual deficit, but spent each year on government operations. In 2000, only $18 billion of the yearly Social Security surplus was spent, and then owed to the SSA trust fund.

<h3>During seven years of president Bush's "leadership", the amount of surplus Social security funds spent by the government, but not counted in the budget deficit numbers, was $1.174 trillion, including $186 billion in this past year, alone. The amount of money in the <a href="http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/fyOps.html">SSA trust fund was $1.006 trillion</a>, at the end of 2000</h3>, vs. $2.180 trillion at the end of 2007.

How can President Bush preside over a government that spent $1.174 trillion of the money collected from our earnings and matched by our employers, except for earnings above $105,000 annually, a government that continues to borrow and spend an addtional minimum of $186 billion in surplus Social Security payroll taxes collected, more than doubling the amount the government owes to the SSA Trust fund, while having the motherfucking BALLS to declare in his speech tonight:
He took $1.174 trillion of our money, we and our employers paid it to the government in advance, and he cut taxes, most liberally to the people who stop having SSA taxes deducted from their income on annaulk amounts above $105,000, spent it on continuing government operations not counted as part of his announced annual budget deficits, doubled the amount owed to the SSA trust fund to a level over $2 trillion, advocates making these tax cuts permanent, and complains that the cost of funding "entitlement programs" we have paid in advance for, are "growing faster than we can afford"....

<h3>But Ustwo posts that my "attitide" is the actual problem.....</h3>

dc_dux

You left out fiscal health....the national debt nearly doubled in the last 8 years - $5.7 trillion to projected over $10 trillion when Bush leaves office...almost as much as during the terms of ALL the previous presidents combined.

And, 2007 with the largest annual CPI increase in 10 years, declining personal savings and soaring personal debt and bankruptcy, decline in the value of the dollar...

We import more oil than 8 years ago, thats a fact not an opinion.
I dont see Republicans wanting to build more refineries, thats a fact, not an opinion
Unemployment is NOT at historic lows...it was just over 4% when Clinton left office, its now at 5%

Millions more families below the poverty line, thats a fact, not a guess
Millions more families without health insurance, thats a fact, not a guess
The biggest beneficiary of the medicare prescription drug plan was the pharmas....Bush promised to veto the bill if it contained a requirement to negotiate prescription drug prices (in a manner similar to the Vet Administration)

They like us less but we buy far more from then than we sell to them...the trade deficit is far worse than eight years ago....fact, not opinion.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Ustwo

Yes America sucks now blah blah its all Bush's fault blah blah. (btw what do refineries have to do with oil importation, that was kinda silly).

I'm not fond of Bushes socialistic tendencies, I wish the Republicans didn't puss out and become like Democrats in spending, perhaps we need a Democrat president and a Republican congress like Clinton had so that nothing new gets spent on.

But this bullshit about how horrible things are, is just that, bullshit. Hell Bush could be crapping 24k gold eggs and giving them away and some would still be bitching about him because the eggs smelled a bit like shit.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

dc_dux

I did not say America sucks, nor did I even put all the blame on Bush (even though I do think he is immoral and incompetent)...but as Ace likes to say..."the buck stops there". A president cant take credit for the good things without accepting blame for the bad.

I offered an opinion on the State of the Union, based on my interpretation of the facts and figures (national debt, unemployment rate, # in poverty, # w/o health insurance, energy costs and imports, trade deficit...)

I didnt even say "how horrible things are," I just concluded that by those measures, things are worse than they were eight years ago.

But if you have other measures or indicators....go for it But I suspect you like talking chicken shit more than the facts, particularly since you offered few facts, and those were wrong

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

JumpinJesus

I think there are only like 5 people left in the world who still thinks Bush is doing a heck of a job. There's not much that can be done to help those holdouts. It's like trying to convince someone who still listens to disco that disco sucks. If they haven't figured it out by now, there's little chance they ever will.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

Elphaba

JJ, you sum things up so well.

__________________
"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

host

One third of survey respondents still support Bush, and approve of the job he is doing as president of the United States. Several people post on this forum in support of him and the job he does, and they maintain that he does as good or better job than past presidents, past candidates and current candidates for the office of president.

He still has the authority to veto bills, to command the military, to launch military actions, to issue executive orders, and to secretly rescind or to issue provisions of them. We see that he can issue pardons of the convicted, or commute their criminal sentences. He still represents the US as the current chief executive in this country and in any country he travels to.

He still makes public statements that are unreasonable, inaccurate and potentially project some influence. The candidates running to succeed him in office, embrace almost all of his agenda, policy, and message.

He is also in the eyes of a number of us, unique in that he has apparently committed the very crime, aggressive war, our post WWII government tried and executed foreign aggressor for having committed. Neither he nor his closest aids have ever offered a complete and coherent accounting of what he and they were doing in the capacity of their official duties, in the time period a few months before the 9/11 attacks, until shortly after them.

9/11 was our era's Pearl Harbor, would you not think that Bush and his associates at least would give us an accurate accounting of their actions and statements around that time?

host

One third of survey respondents still support Bush, and approve of the job he is doing as president of the United States. Several people post on this forum in support of him and the job he does, and they maintain that he does as good or better job than past presidents, past candidates and current candidates for the office of president.

He still has the authority to veto bills, to command the military, to launch military actions, to issue executive orders, and to secretly rescind or to issue provisions of them. We see that he can issue pardons of the convicted, or commute their criminal sentences. He still represents the US as the current chief executive in this country and in any country he travels to.

He still makes public statements that are unreasonable, inaccurate and potentially project some influence. The candidates running to succeed him in office, embrace almost all of his agenda, policy, and message.

He is also in the eyes of a number of us, unique in that he has apparently committed the very crime, aggressive war, our post WWII government tried and executed foreign aggressor for having committed. Neither he nor his closest aids have ever offered a complete and coherent accounting of what he and they were doing in the capacity of their official duties, in the time period a few months before the 9/11 attacks, until shortly after them.

9/11 was our era's Pearl Harbor, would you not think that Bush and his associates at least would give us an accurate accounting of their actions and statements around that time?

dksuddeth

incredibly, I seem to be the only one upset at the remarks of 'we must trust the people', like we're now the servants of the government instead of the other way around........and most people seem to actually believe that.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

guy44

Bush gave a speech? Huh. Can't believe I missed it, you know? He's such a captivating speaker...



Anyways, scroll half-way down for a pretty good fact-check of the SOTU if you think anyone really care's what Bush has to say anymore.

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