Derwood

I love how Hillary is claiming she is now leading in popular votes. Nevermind that she's counting Florida and Michigan, two states where Obama didn't campaign at all (per her agreement) and one of which he wasn't even on the ballot

MuadDib

You mean two states where neither of them campaigned (per their agreement)?

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"The courts that first rode the warhorse of virtual representation into battle on the res judicata front invested their steed with near-magical properties." ~27 F.3d 751

Charlatan

I thought this was an interesting graphic.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Charlatan

Here's another interesting poll... It looks like the mud is sticking to Obama.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

ratbastid

Wow, that last question on the right really shows just how badly "patriotism" has been warped in the last eight years.

Paq

ratbastid, i cringed when i read that last question... i can't believe it is even on there..

dis..gust..ing

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Ustwo

God damn America

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Paq

i'm 99% sure, ustwo, that anyone could link you to someone with a racist, unpatriotic message and try to say that is your intent as well....

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Chris

Ustwo

If if was someone who I used for political purposes and then, belatedly threw under the bus, for political purposes, you might have a valid point too.

You may not like peoples response to the question, but thats not what you were referring to. You couldn't believed they asked the question in the first place. Since its a simple survey there is nothing wrong with asking the question.

Patriotism is something openly made fun of by some members of the left, or warped to any action is 'patriotic' as long as there is a political motivation.

I think its a guilty conscious reacting to the question more than a disgust over someone asking the question.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

ratbastid

You put that in the proper context, and that's one of the most patriotic things an American can say. Our country was founded on the right to dissent. SOME people have forgotten about that in the last eight years, and COMPLIANCE is now what's equated with patriotism.

loquitur

ratbastid, that's not true. You only like certain kinds of dissent. Dissent from the orthodoxies you happen to like is not something you'd be so fond of.

ratbastid

Certainly true, but I guarantee you I don't go to "Unpatriotic!!! Possibly Muslim!!!" as a rebuttal. That's just BULLSHIT.

I'm not clear what part of my post you're saying isn't true. You're telling me that patriotism DOESN'T equal compliance these days? Cause I believe I'd take you on about that one.

Ustwo

Dissent does not equal patriotism.

A patriot can be a dissenter, but there is nothing special or magical about dissent.

When members of the left talk about dying US soliders as good for the genepool because only someone stupid would go fight *you DO remember that post don't you?* that is hard to call such dissent patriotic.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

pan6467

I am becoming very amused by all this anymore.

A couple years ago, the Dems were screaming (and I believe rightfully so, BTW I was one at that time screaming) that the GOP was questioning their "patriotism" and their "love of country" because they spoke out against the war.

Now, the Dems are the ones pointing fingers and telling people if they have reasons (whatever the personal choice and belief is) to not like Obama...... they are racist, not patriotic and how dare they question anything he does.... Wrght is a great example "he has the right and damned good reasons to preach that way, hes black and you have no idea what it is to be black..... to .. Oooopsie Wright is a misunderstood crazy uncle.... to.. oooo wait he's full of hate and preaches divisiveness and Obama separated himself and states he never heard any of that...... Or one may not like him because no one truly knows anything about the man...... Or one may not like him because he had land deals with a known criminal.... Or one may not like him because he leans too far left...... Or one may not like him because he refused to wear a flag lapel pin or cover his heart during a national anthem..... Or one may not like him because any number of reasons personal to the one that doesn't like him.

BUT none of those reasons are GOOD enough for the rabid, Obama supporter.... Noooooooo, if you don't like him you are racist, you are unpatriotic, you are a neo con, you do not think for yourself, you do not love your country..... blah blah blah.

So instead of trying to debate what Obama stands for to get your vote they use guilt, shame, threats, name calling and so on to get you to shut up and either vote for him or not vote at all.

Welcome to BushCo the next generation!!!!!!!!!

To all you who want to threaten, call names, guilt, shame and so on.... I say Fuck you I'll vote for whom I choose! And for those who want to debate Obama's stances on the issues..... let's open a thread and do it. But let's do so without the rest of the bullshit...... ok?

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Paq

are you serious?


ok, first off..it's an absurd question. Has obama or clinton or even bush done anything considered unpatriotic? it's an absurd question, that's all, and one i would THINK would be kind of a moot point to ask someone running for president. I mean, how do you judge it? seriously. am i unpatriotic for thinking the country could be and should be better off? am i unpatriotic for not supporting a war?

it's a question that is just disturbing and disgusting to ask about people who are running for president, that's all.

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Live.

Chris

host

GOP cannot campaign on the issues, hence 1988 Willie Horton ads and helmeted Dukakis driving a tank instead of discussion of VP Bush's involvement in Iran Contra and his choice of Quayle as his running mate....In 2004, two high level undisclosed Bush/Cheney campaign officials advised NY Times that they intended to portray John Kerry as "French looking" and John Edwards as looking like "the Breck Girl" and the Times published this revelation on it's front page. Sunday's Wapo front page featured an article titled "Obama faces test in asserting his own brand of patriotism". The article describes a young woman at an Obama campaign appearance asking him why he doesn't wear a flag lapel pin....The press will publish the slime the GOP feeds it....the Wapo article jusrified it's new examination of Obama's patriotism because of numerous debates on talk radioand cable shows...a circle jerk of right wing political operatives staged to justify and drive rhe smears cloaked as actual news reporting. The issues won't be discussed because the OP is about driving Obama's unity message and his differentkind of politics far, far, up his.....and there is no actual two sided issues discussion on this forum either.... because they've pointed out in another thread yesterday, that my big fat ego and my narcisism are mucking up the works!!! So now, at least we know why issues are never discussed in any depth in this forum.....

pan6467

Actually Host, I see nothing in this post that gets me to want to vote for Obama .... all I see is anger and hatred directed at the GOP. (Which .... ummmm despite rumors to the contrary, I'm a Clinton supporter...... there I said it..... wait that's about the 100th time I've had to say it.) And Clinton does have better ideas than Obama... so, get your facts straight, at least where I am concerned, please.

My feeling is either show WHY I should vote for someone because of issues and what is best and not just spew hatred and talk about BS.

You missed the whole point of my post, but that's ok, you'd rather wallow in your anger and hatred.

BTW, issues are discussed here and some even have good debates and positive exchanges of ideas, however, you seem to want everything yur way and will not be happy until everyone agrees with you about how evil Bush is, how rotten the war is, how corrupt and blah blah blah.... be quite honest Host your tune has not changed since the day I saw your first post.... you do have more anger and hatred though.

//threadjack

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

ratbastid

You've turned what I said upside-down. Which is required, of course, in order for you to disagree with it.

I didn't say dissent equals patriotism. I said dissent doesn't equal a LACK of patriotism. And I said that the way patriotism has been warped, dissent has BEEN MADE TO equal a lack of patriotism.

You're really going to compare one stupid post with the last eight years of flag-draped warmongering? How many people did that post kill? Come ON.

Borgs

Haha....

The only people using Wright for political purposes are the Hillary and McCain campaigns. Obama has consistently tried to take him out of the political process. It was only after the media decided to give Wright a microphone and tons of airtime that Obama had to say enough. But I guess the hypocrisy of condemning a mans words and them giving him national coverage to say what he wants is lost on some people.

pan6467

I find it somewhat interesting but not hypocritical when the press gives Rev. Wright a microphone. They follow what will make them money, letting Rev. Wright talk makes them money.

As for how Obama handles this situation, I want to watch how he handles it, right now I truly dislike how he handles it, but that's just me and my opinion. Of course when I say that rabid Obama supporters start beating their racism drum and the names and guilt and hate start coming out, simply because I have an opinion.

Yes, McCain and Hilary are using Rev Wright..... just as any politician uses anything like this to their advantage..... some people use Hagee (or whomever against McCain and people use something against Hilary..... IT'S THE WAY POLITICS IS DONE.... a lot of races you can't tell much difference between the parties so their personal lives become the deal breaker..... some people just think if you aren't moral, honest and so on in your private life you won't be in office.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

roachboy

not this again...

first off, i am not a particularly enthusiastic obama supporter--i simply think he's closest to what i see as a rational choice for president, given how i understand the present states of affairs and what should be done to deal with them. i don't see a huge difference in policy terms between obama and clinton: more a difference in how they present their positions, with obama talking in more general terms and clinton working the policy insider angle.

so this is just to head off at the pass anything in response to what follows.

the problem i have had with the wright thing has NOTHING to do with my support, tepid as it is, for obama, and EVERYTHING to do with fundamental, visceral rejection of the entire way conservative politics frames the issue of racism, it's history and the relation of that history to situations in the present. it also has to do with a kind of repulsion directed toward television-driven politics in america, the politics of repeated superficiality in the place of analysis or even coherent discussion of the huge problems that the united states presently faces--structural problems like the simple fact that the state can no longer decisively control economic activity within its borders, the problems that attend transformations in economic organization, the massive transfers of wealth away from 70% of the population, the dissolution of older forms of political representation on the order of trade unions and the lack of any new alternatives--so the wholesale loss of political power undergone by the vast majority of people over the past 30 years--not coherent discussions about iraq, no coherent discussions about the disastrous policies of the bush administration vis-a-vis israel/palestine, of how they have played out in brutal, stark real-time in the gaza strip--no coherent discussion about any fucking thing--just memes about jeremiah wright and the resurgence of the upside-down conservative-specific mangling of the history of american racism.

we live in a context of busy denial--we substitute business for thinking--we confuse jumpcuts and attending velocity of infotainment with being informed--we do not think much outside the frames that are imposed on us across the jump-cut driven infotainment environment. we swallow the terminology and spit it back wholesale, unthinking, unreflective. THAT is my problem--not obama, not the damage this non-event has done to him, not the "choice" clinton-obama.

the other concern, really, is the horrifying prospect of 4 more years of inept republican control of the white house--but that's another matter.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Borgs

The press bash him for being anti-American and then goad him into saying even more anti-American comments so that they can have talking points. I hardly think that anyone in the press wanted flowers and sunshine to come out of his mouth when they pointed their cameras at him.

The issue is absolutely legitimate, don't get me wrong. But only insofar as it affects his policy decisions and his moral compass. The entire issue is framed on the speculation that Wright might negatively affect how Obama frames his decisions. Has Obama conducted himself in any way thus far that can be interpreted as being influenced by Wright? The story loses legitimacy one people realize that Wright is not an influence in future decisions; he is figure in the past.

I find the debate surrounding the gas tax much more telling of how the candidates will conduct themselves than anything Wright ever said.

loquitur

yeah, Borgs, I have to say that I'm with Obama on the gas tax thing. I think HRC and McCain are doing a big-league pander on that one.

pan6467

On a side note, I am regaining respect for you, friend...

But why not this again, if it influences people's votes and is important to some people, why not let hem talk it out?

To minimize their feelings and to blow them off just closes their minds that much more

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"