Patriots Act - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

opentocomments · 06-19-2003, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Nat Hentoff
The Sons and Daughters of Liberty
'All of Us Are in Danger'
June 21st, 2002 3:30 PM

Northampton, Massachusetts: a town meeting in defense of the Bill of Rights
(photo: Daily Hampshire Gazette)

n 1756, in Boston and other cities and towns, the coming of the American Revolution was speeded by mechanics, merchants, and artisans who organized against British tyranny. Calling themselves the Sons of Liberty, they set up committees of correspondence in the colonies to spread detailed news about British attacks on their liberties. They focused on the general search warrant, which allowed customs officers to invade and ransack their homes and offices at will.

In the spirit of the Sons of Liberty, on February 4 of this year, some 300 citizens of Northampton, Massachusetts, held a town meeting to organize ways to—as they put it—protect the residents of the town from the Bush-Ashcroft USA Patriot Act. On that night, the Northampton Bill of Rights Defense Committee began a new American Revolution. Similar committees are organizing around the country.

Speakers at that town meeting were defying John Ashcroft, who threatened dissenters in his testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee last year. He denounced those "who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty. . . . Your tactics only aid terrorists, for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve. They give ammunition to America's enemies."

But speakers at the meeting emphasized that the USA Patriot Act and the the succession of unilateral Ashcroft-Bush orders that followed apply not only to noncitizens but also to Americans in that very hall. William Newman, director of the ACLU of Western Massachusetts, pointed out that law enforcement agencies are now permitted "the same access to your Internet use and to your e-mail use that they had to your telephone records"—and may overstep their authority. "The history of the FBI," Newman warned, "is that they will do exactly that."

Also speaking was University of Massachusetts professor Bill Strickland, whom I first met when he directed the Northern Student Movement during the civil rights campaigns of the 1950s and 1960s. Said Strickland, "The elements of the Patriot Act place all of us in danger."

One result of that meeting was a petition, signed by over 1000 Northamptonites, urging the town government to approve a "resolution to defend the Bill of Rights." Thanks to a persistent organizing drive, that resolution passed the Northampton city council by a unanimous vote on May 2. It targets not only the USA Patriot Act but also all subsequent actions by Ashcroft and others that "threaten key rights guaranteed to U.S. citizens and noncitizens by the Bill of Rights and the Massachusetts Constitution."

Among those key rights: "freedom of speech, assembly, and privacy; the right to counsel and due process in judicial proceedings; and protection from unreasonable searches and seizures."

The city of Northampton officially asks, from now on, that "federal and state law enforcement report to the local Human Rights Commission all local investigations undertaken under aegis of the [USA Patriot] Act and Orders; and that the community's congressional representatives actively monitor the implementation of the Act and Orders, and work to repeal those sections found unconstitutional."

This is a signal to the mostly passive members of Congress that actual voters are watching them.

In April, similar resolutions to defend the Bill of Rights from the Bush administration and from complicit members of Congress afraid to challenge Ashcroft were passed in the nearby towns of Amherst and Leverett. And Dr. Marty Nathan, of the ever industrious Northampton Bill of Rights Defense Committee, informs me that "the city councils of Ann Arbor and Berkeley passed civil liberties resolutions in January," as did the Denver city council in March and the city council in Cambridge, Massachusetts, on June 17. Other cities are also preparing resolutions.

You would think this grassroots movement to secure our liberties would be of interest to the national media, but I have seen little of it on television or in the print press.

To find out about these campaigns around the country, and about a range of organizing tools, you can visit the Northampton Bill of Rights Defense Committee's Web site, and its links: www.gjf.org/NBORDC.

At the town meeting in Leverett, Massachusetts, Don Ogden, who initiated the resolution, noted—and I hope the FBI transmits this to John Ashcroft—that "it is truly Orwellian doublespeak to call such unpatriotic efforts a 'patriot act.' "

Like Northampton, the town of Amherst also passed its resolution unanimously. Select Board Person Anne Awad did not at all see Ashcroft's "phantoms of lost liberty," but rather a clear and present danger to our constitutional rights.

"As members of the Select Board," she said, "we want to know that all residents and visitors to our town feel safe. We do not want to support profiling of particular types of people. If one group is viewed suspiciously today, another group will be added to the list tomorrow."

A further indication that many Americans are ahead of their representatives in Washington in wanting to be safe from Ashcroft is an April 24 Associated Press report: "Despite the fear of future terrorist attacks, a majority of Americans are unwilling to give up civil liberties in exchange for national security, according to a Michigan State University study. Nearly 55 percent of 1488 people surveyed nationwide said they don't want to give up constitutional rights in the government's fight against terrorism. . . .

"The telephone survey, sponsored by the National Science Foundation, was conducted from November 14 through January 15 and has a margin of error of plus or minus 2.7 percentage points." Sixty-six percent "opposed government monitoring of telephone and e-mail conversations."

The original Sons of Liberty were an instrumental cause of the American Revolution, and they spread the liberating news without an Internet. Think of how much more and swifter organizing can be done on the Web now. Let me know, at the Voice, what other towns and cities are doing to keep the Bill of Rights alive. Please do not use e-mail.

Just thought id start something this is a topic that i havent seen talked about much and i am quite woried as to what this means to me and the rest of our generation

geep · 06-19-2003, 06:52 AM

Oddly enough, the FBI was prohibited from using the internet to investigate criminal activity. The Patriot Act simply allows them the same rights as the rest of us.

opentocomments · 06-19-2003, 08:19 AM

i thought i gave them the right to use progams like Carnivor (preditor?) and search through all the information we have veiwed and listing to our phone calls like NSA does?

Ratman · 06-19-2003, 08:21 AM

The true name of this Act is not "The Patriot Act," but rather "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism (USA PATRIOT) Act of 2001."

In other words, it has nothing to do with patriotism, rather it is a clever acronym created to make it seem as though patriotism were at its core. Why did they do this? If you remeber the non-debate over this Act, the brief mentions by Ashcroft, et.al., were along the lines of "To question or vote against this Act would be unpatriotic." What politician wants to be tarred with that brush?

I am glad that some of the "common folk" that this Act is supposed to protect are questioning the need for its extremes, as their elected representatives should have.

Sparhawk · 06-19-2003, 09:16 AM

Total Information Awareness.

*cough*

I mean, Terrorist Information Awareness.

Of course I would only go after terrorists, not loyal and patriotic citizens who just happened to disagree with me...

geep · 06-19-2003, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sparhawk
Total Information Awareness.

*cough*

I mean, Terrorist Information Awareness.

Of course I would only go after terrorists, not loyal and patriotic citizens who just happened to disagree with me...

Only if they were cats

opentocomments · 06-20-2003, 07:16 PM

So how will this effect me and all the other Joe Shmoes in the world who might engage in some minor illeagal activities not that i am going to go and blow up a building but according to the commercials i am adding terrorists in my use of some controled substance. Can the govt. find out about this from my just posting it here now or do they just ignore things like this and fry the big fish?

RaGe2012 · 06-21-2003, 07:36 PM

I think overall that the USA PATRIOT Act is a very dangerous piece of legislation. I mean, for cryin out loud, the police can hold you indefinitely without formally pressing charges. What the hell is that?

opentocomments · 06-25-2003, 06:08 AM

this is a hypothetical but if they heard me talkingf about possing controlled substances could the seize my home and personal posisions and ect. and search it jsut because when i was on the phone i said mary jane or sumthin to that extent

Edub · 06-25-2003, 07:11 AM

Our local city council here in tiny little Durango, Colorado is considering adoption of a resolution against the "patriot" act as well. I think this kind of thing is crucial to let our congressional delegation know that we won't stand for this bullshit.

rat · 06-25-2003, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RaGe2012
I think overall that the USA PATRIOT Act is a very dangerous piece of legislation. I mean, for cryin out loud, the police can hold you indefinitely without formally pressing charges. What the hell is that?

in the circles i circulate in, it's called the death of habeas corpus

The_Dude · 06-25-2003, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RaGe2012
I think overall that the USA PATRIOT Act is a very dangerous piece of legislation. I mean, for cryin out loud, the police can hold you indefinitely without formally pressing charges. What the hell is that?

habeas corpus, out the window.

this is kinda like what nixon did, only 10x worse.

he did it to the dem's, ashcroft does this to the whole nation

rat · 06-25-2003, 11:39 AM

Habeas corpus has been suspended at various times throughout the history of the US, and it's something that is disgusting. Generally it has been done during war time (Lincoln in the Civil War leaving Washington in a state of near-martial law; FDR in World War II with the internment camps for Japanese Americans), and has been widely accepted by the populace at large as a "precautionary method." However, with the USA PATRIOT act, we saw a near-unanimous ratification of the act without the people truly understanding any of its contents on a broad scale. It directly invades various liberties explicitly guaranteed by the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the other amendments to the Constitution. I find it sickening, and anxiously await the day someone challenges this heinous act in the Supreme Court

The_Dude · 06-25-2003, 11:45 AM

yes, during war time when martial law was declared.

rat · 06-25-2003, 12:34 PM

come again? martial law has never been openly declared nationwide...

The_Dude · 06-25-2003, 01:52 PM

during civil war, lincoln declared martial law. you are technically right by saying it wasnt national, since it was only in the north.

he suspended habeas corpus and jailed the newspaper publishers he didnt like.

look @ the case here, this is a statutory law that allows govt to take away habeas corpus

Easytiger · 06-25-2003, 02:48 PM

Last night, the Australian government passed legislation that in theory allows our intelligence agency to hold suspects without charges for eight hours. In practice, however, there are loopholes in the legislation that allow suspects to be held indefinitely. And the worst thing is that the legislation doesn't even have so much as a cool acronym to soften the blow.

The_Dude · 06-25-2003, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Easytiger
And the worst thing is that the legislation doesn't even have so much as a cool acronym to soften the blow.

tell your foreign minister to call ashcroft, i'm sure he has backup's to the name "patriot"

Dryden · 06-25-2003, 10:04 PM

This piece of legislation is scary...in theory, in reminds me of my old history lessons involving the SS

blanks · 06-25-2003, 10:39 PM

Its crazy to have to think twice about what you type or say here, knowing that we are slowly having our civil liberties taken away in the name of "terrorism". Although there is a threat, it seems like a mighty convinient time to be able to separate the "patriots" from non-patriots. I thought liberty meant that you could express your view, even if it's not in accordance with this hoodwink legislation.

MustLoveCorn · 06-25-2003, 11:17 PM

Bush and Ashcroft gotta go. I would even vote for Al Sharpton before voting for Bush. I mean, how bad could Al Sharpton be? :-)

RaGe2012 · 06-26-2003, 05:46 PM

If you wanna get into the nitty gritty, the US has had "emergency powers" since WWII...we've never really ever left a state of war.

The_Dude · 06-26-2003, 07:00 PM

but didnt you have to declare a state of emergency before using those powers?

mike059 · 06-26-2003, 08:15 PM

it smacks of "big brother" to me....just another way to maintain power in a party without a clue. the government has no business in my daily life. the argument that if you are not a terrotist you do not have to worry is crap. we all have to worry, the guilty and especially the innocent

Gortexfogg · 06-26-2003, 08:38 PM

The Patriot Act isn't anything new. Back during John Adam's presidency, the Alien and Sedition Acts (anti-rebelion stuff) were passed. According to the acts, if you bad mouth the president or government, you get put in jail. No questions asked. The nation was young and this act was semi-important for our nation's future. It was later discontinued during Jefferson's presidency due to stablization in the US. There was a sedition act passed during WWI, to stop anti-war people and stuff. It was discontinued after WWI as well. Hopefully history repeats itself and when there is no need for the Patriot Act (which may be now), it will be discontinued.

smooth · 06-27-2003, 12:48 AM

You raise a good point, Gortexfogg, in regards to the malleability of the law.

History won't "repeat itself" in a vacuum, however, the people need to make their voices heard to recenter these contentious issues.

mike059 · 06-27-2003, 07:00 PM

when the people do not pay attention to history, it will repeat itself... apathy is the greatest danger.....

06-19-2003, 08:19 AM	#3 (permalink)
opentocomments Psycho Location: St. Louis	i thought i gave them the right to use progams like Carnivor (preditor?) and search through all the information we have veiwed and listing to our phone calls like NSA does? __________________ How do we know that the sky is not green and we are all color-blind?

06-19-2003, 08:21 AM	#4 (permalink)
Ratman Addict Location: Somewhere... Across the sea...	The true name of this Act is not "The Patriot Act," but rather "Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism (USA PATRIOT) Act of 2001." In other words, it has nothing to do with patriotism, rather it is a clever acronym created to make it seem as though patriotism were at its core. Why did they do this? If you remeber the non-debate over this Act, the brief mentions by Ashcroft, et.al., were along the lines of "To question or vote against this Act would be unpatriotic." What politician wants to be tarred with that brush? I am glad that some of the "common folk" that this Act is supposed to protect are questioning the need for its extremes, as their elected representatives should have. __________________ The difference between theory and reality is that in theory there is no difference. "God made man, but he used the monkey to do it." DEVO

06-19-2003, 09:16 AM	#5 (permalink)
Sparhawk Dubya Location: VA	Total Information Awareness. cough I mean, Terrorist Information Awareness. Of course I would only go after terrorists, not loyal and patriotic citizens who just happened to disagree with me... __________________ "In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

06-20-2003, 07:16 PM	#7 (permalink)
opentocomments Psycho Location: St. Louis	So how will this effect me and all the other Joe Shmoes in the world who might engage in some minor illeagal activities not that i am going to go and blow up a building but according to the commercials i am adding terrorists in my use of some controled substance. Can the govt. find out about this from my just posting it here now or do they just ignore things like this and fry the big fish? __________________ How do we know that the sky is not green and we are all color-blind?

06-21-2003, 07:36 PM	#8 (permalink)
RaGe2012 Upright Location: New Jersey	I think overall that the USA PATRIOT Act is a very dangerous piece of legislation. I mean, for cryin out loud, the police can hold you indefinitely without formally pressing charges. What the hell is that? __________________ "Yesterday we bowed our heads to kings and bent our necks to emperors. But today we kneel only to truth..." - Kahlil Gibran

06-19-2003, 06:52 AM	#2 (permalink)
geep Insane Location: Imprisoned in Ecotopia	Oddly enough, the FBI was prohibited from using the internet to investigate criminal activity. The Patriot Act simply allows them the same rights as the rest of us.

06-25-2003, 06:08 AM	#9 (permalink)
opentocomments Psycho Location: St. Louis	this is a hypothetical but if they heard me talkingf about possing controlled substances could the seize my home and personal posisions and ect. and search it jsut because when i was on the phone i said mary jane or sumthin to that extent __________________ How do we know that the sky is not green and we are all color-blind?

06-25-2003, 07:11 AM	#10 (permalink)
Edub Upright	Our local city council here in tiny little Durango, Colorado is considering adoption of a resolution against the "patriot" act as well. I think this kind of thing is crucial to let our congressional delegation know that we won't stand for this bullshit.

06-25-2003, 11:45 AM	#14 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	yes, during war time when martial law was declared. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

06-25-2003, 01:52 PM	#16 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	during civil war, lincoln declared martial law. you are technically right by saying it wasnt national, since it was only in the north. he suspended habeas corpus and jailed the newspaper publishers he didnt like. look @ the case here, this is a statutory law that allows govt to take away habeas corpus __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

06-25-2003, 02:48 PM	#17 (permalink)
Easytiger Insane Location: Tigerland	Last night, the Australian government passed legislation that in theory allows our intelligence agency to hold suspects without charges for eight hours. In practice, however, there are loopholes in the legislation that allow suspects to be held indefinitely. And the worst thing is that the legislation doesn't even have so much as a cool acronym to soften the blow.

06-25-2003, 10:04 PM	#19 (permalink)
Dryden Upright	This piece of legislation is scary...in theory, in reminds me of my old history lessons involving the SS

06-25-2003, 10:39 PM	#20 (permalink)
blanks Upright	Its crazy to have to think twice about what you type or say here, knowing that we are slowly having our civil liberties taken away in the name of "terrorism". Although there is a threat, it seems like a mighty convinient time to be able to separate the "patriots" from non-patriots. I thought liberty meant that you could express your view, even if it's not in accordance with this hoodwink legislation.

06-25-2003, 11:17 PM	#21 (permalink)
MustLoveCorn Crazy Location: Seattle area	Bush and Ashcroft gotta go. I would even vote for Al Sharpton before voting for Bush. I mean, how bad could Al Sharpton be? :-) __________________ Remember last year when my Sig File advocated voting wisely in the 2004 Election? Well, we now have an Attorney General who is sicking the FBI on pr0n. All I can say is, I told you so!

06-26-2003, 05:46 PM	#22 (permalink)
RaGe2012 Upright Location: New Jersey	If you wanna get into the nitty gritty, the US has had "emergency powers" since WWII...we've never really ever left a state of war. __________________ "Yesterday we bowed our heads to kings and bent our necks to emperors. But today we kneel only to truth..." - Kahlil Gibran

06-26-2003, 07:00 PM	#23 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	but didnt you have to declare a state of emergency before using those powers? __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

06-26-2003, 08:15 PM	#24 (permalink)
mike059 Tilted Location: Pensacola, Florida	it smacks of "big brother" to me....just another way to maintain power in a party without a clue. the government has no business in my daily life. the argument that if you are not a terrotist you do not have to worry is crap. we all have to worry, the guilty and especially the innocent

06-26-2003, 08:38 PM	#25 (permalink)
Gortexfogg I and I Location: Stillwater, OK	The Patriot Act isn't anything new. Back during John Adam's presidency, the Alien and Sedition Acts (anti-rebelion stuff) were passed. According to the acts, if you bad mouth the president or government, you get put in jail. No questions asked. The nation was young and this act was semi-important for our nation's future. It was later discontinued during Jefferson's presidency due to stablization in the US. There was a sedition act passed during WWI, to stop anti-war people and stuff. It was discontinued after WWI as well. Hopefully history repeats itself and when there is no need for the Patriot Act (which may be now), it will be discontinued.

06-27-2003, 12:48 AM	#26 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	You raise a good point, Gortexfogg, in regards to the malleability of the law. History won't "repeat itself" in a vacuum, however, the people need to make their voices heard to recenter these contentious issues. __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

06-27-2003, 07:00 PM	#27 (permalink)
mike059 Tilted Location: Pensacola, Florida	when the people do not pay attention to history, it will repeat itself... apathy is the greatest danger.....