pan6467

I have been truly thinking the last few months about why I am a Democrat when my party has decided to forget and go against everything I joined them for.

When I joined the Democratic Party they were the party for equal rights and making sure even the poorest had a voice. They were the "truly caring party", they had plans to better the nation.

But anymore that is all bullshit.

When areas property tax people in retirement beyond their means and they have to sell their paid for houses because they cannot afford to pay the taxes.... something is wrong with my party. Where is giving the poor the voice? Protecting the people?????

When the Democrats are selling their souls to special interests and selling rights out, where is the protection they promised?

When the Democrats spend more time hating the Republicans and crying about what BushCo has been doing, where are the solutions to help build, where is the optimism?

When the Democrats ignore the workers rights and sell the workers out by allowing unions to be destroyed, where did the party for the protection of the working man go?

When the Democrats sell out education and do nothing to help fund it, where did the "everyone deserves the best education available regardless of cost", go?

Instead of pointing fingers and name calling where are the solutions and the voices that speak out and have plans, goals, ideas that truly inspire..... they won Congress what the fuck have they done though???????

The party I loved, the people I believed in, the ideals and beliefs I would fight for..... no longer are cared for, no longer are believed in, no longer exist in the Democratic Party.

The party I love has sold communities out, tax abatements to draw businesses that pay workers shit wages will no, not never help the community. What they do is force the citizen, the worker making those shit wages to pay more in taxes to pay for the "abatements". They force the community to raise property taxes so that the retired cannot afford to live in their paid for home.

It is for the above reasons I announce today my free agency in political partisanship.

The party that wants me, must show me they will come back to these beliefs.

That they won't tax the retired workers and poor out of their homes, thath they won't point fingers and spew hatred but instead will have positive inspiring ideals to better the nation, They don't have to agree on my views they just need to show me they have a true plan that will help all, not just special interests, certain minorities, etc. but help EVERYONE.

I want the party I loved and believed in back.

Now, I don't want to hear how the GOP does the same thing, I know that, that was why I didn't join the GOP....... but if the gop does the same thing and they haven't changed...... then that means the Dems had to change.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

The GOP is powerful and corrupt. The Dems are weak and less corrupt. They are still both corrupt, and neither is capable of running the country. I vote Green to lead by example. If enough people vote with their best representative, regardless of party, the "you're throwing your vote away" excuse will fade away. I want a president to win with 15% of the vote, against 9 other people. That's more representative of the people. If enough people leave a party, it will try to change.

pan6467

This doesn't say anything Will. It just says you're going to a prty out of protest to the major 2. Protesting is fine, but there are no true values in protesting just to protest. The Green Party is 95% owned by the Democrats. If a Green gets in power he/she 'll just go along with the Dems because they have no true platform.

I want a party to show me a platform I can believe in, that inspires me, that shows me they believe in positive change and not just taxing people into oblivion, a party that somewhat holds the ideals and beliefs that I do and that is not going to kowtow to the special interests.

The GOP isn't that powerful and the Dems are weak only because they sold themselves and their beliefs out.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

pan.....let me know when you find the Utopia party.

Until then, I'll stick with what you and Will might describe as "the lesser of two evils" and work to correct from within.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

pan6467

Ah yes, downplay what has been said.... talk to me like I'm an idiot.

I'm sorry but WHAT THE FUCK DOES THAT SAY?????? The lesser of 2 evils....oooooooo yeah, there's fucking optimism there. That's standing up for your core beliefs and coming up with positive plans to change the nation..... WOW...... that's just sad.

Work to correct from within, lol...... yeah as we watch retirees getting taxed out of their homes, as we watch our leaders tax 20% of the nation unfairly and the party thinks it's a great thing. This country doesn't have 20 years while you "work to correct from within". Not to mention you can't correct anything if you have no idea or plan to change... just "it's the lesser of 2 evils".

I just want a party that isn't going to sell their core beliefs out.

I find it funny that when a GOP'er states their party doesn't represent them anymore the Dems are laughing and proudly banging their chests like something great has happened.... but the best a Dem can say when told they are losing someone is:

again, WOW.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

pan....it was not meant to downplay anything or insult anyone....it is simply a recognition how our two-party democratic process has worked for 200+ years.

With all its warts and faults, it works better and is more representative than most. That is a political reality.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Willravel

I'm in the Green party because I'm green. They best represent my interests and my beliefs. It has nothing to do with protesting (for once). Instead of choosing a less of two evils, I choose the best of all choices for myself, the way you're supposed to do it. Obviously, the Dems no longer represent you. What does that mean? You either keep voting for them, or you figure out who actually does represent you. The two party system is maintained by this insane idea that a third party has no chance. Who cares if it has no chance? You need to vote to represent yourself. The more people that do that, the more change can come about.

pan6467

Not anymore.... there are no ideals, no optimistic voices, no plans.... this is the first time in our nation that a generation will do worse than their parents and the trend shows the decline to continue. Neither party works to advance in a positive way.... sorry, but this nation became great because there were voices that inspired better.

By saying "with all its warts and faults......" shows me that you are willing to not move forward to not change, that you accept mediocrity and the belief that selling out your beliefs and core values and watching this nation lose hope and settle for what we get.

I'm sorry, I'm more optimistic than that, I believe we can do better, I know we can. I just want to see a party that has the plans, has the ideals and values that show how we can and won't sell them out because the media polls say this or that..... or sell them out to specvial interests..... I don't think that is too much to ask for.

But you are still not telling me anything Will.

What are the values, beliefs, ideals and goals the Green Party stands for?

If in power what will they do differently?

Sell your party Will, don't just say "I vote this way." Explain your party and why people should join.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

We each choose our own way. My choice is not to drop out of what is a de facto two party system ...and say a pox on both their houses. The "lesser of two evil" does not represent my personal view....it was my impression of your perception.

I believe in the Demcratic party ideals and I have seen the results as recently as this year, with the passage of a minimum wage bill, the first in a decade; a proposal for a pay-as-you go budget and fiscal discipline , the first in six years; the strictest Congressional ethics rules in history; reversal of energy tax breaks/subsidies to oil companies with $billion profits, freedom of information act reform and more open and accountable goverment......

I think in the 7 short months of Democratic control of Congress, we are doing better and showing the values that Americans expect.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Willravel

I vote that way because I did my homework. I studied about 20 different parties and eventually came to the conclusion that the Green Party was mine. We don't share some of the same values on things like immigration, so I don't want to sell you something you won't like. It's up to you. Go see what's out there and experience them for yourself. I can't tell you what party you should belong to, only you can do that.

tecoyah

You deal with the hand you're dealt.

I don't know about you but I gots me a pair of threes....and we are playing stud.

Fortunately, everyone else has a crappy hand as well.

pan6467

This right here: We don't share some of the same values on things like immigration, so I don't want to sell you something you won't like.

THAT is the majority of the problem. I'm not going to like everything about the party I select, I didn't like everything about the Dems (back in the day) but I liked and believed in enough of their values and plans for a better future that I supported them.

What I'm getting so far is "that's life."

We are the United States of America, the greatest country this world has ever seen and we are allowing retirees to be taxed out of their homes, we are allowing our educational system (once the greatest asset our country ever had) to fall apart, we are allowing companies to dictate policy, we are losing everything great our forefathers fought for, believed in and would die for and we sit here and accept it?????

Where the fuck are the voices? Where are our great leaders to show us better?

What is the point of working for forty years, pouring your heart, blood sweat and tears into a job and achieve the American dream of owning a home when as soon as you retire you find they raise your taxes to the point you have to seel that little piece of land that you worked so hard for?

Where are the vlues and dreams of a better future when we allow government to decimate the biggest asset our country ever had (the public education system)?

Where are the voices for the workers to make sure the workers get fairly treated?

What are we showing our youth when we allow this to happen?

Yet, so far, I have been told to just accept it.... why, why should I just accept it? Why can't a single person who is here tell me that they feel the same way and they too are tired of it?

Why are you just accepting it? Why aren't you demanding better?

If enough people stand up and demand better then we'll find better.... but if we say "the lesser of 2 evils", "vote this way to protest", etc etc.... that's negative ways to get change and by accepting negative ways to get change you only change in a negative way.

Why is this fucking acceptable to so many people?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

joshbaumgartner

This line of discussion is extremely frustrating for me. I am very aware that the Party as a whole continues to disappoint those of us who have supported it. But on the other hand, I have not translated this into a desire to abandon the party but instead I have channeled my efforts into greater work for change within the party.

I have chosen not to bolt the party but instead to support a Democratic candidate that represents a rebuff to corporatism, a return to strong principles of opportunity for all, environmental responsibility, international peace and cooperation, a government that serves the people, and other matters the DLC types have seemed to have forgotten.

I watch people throw up their hands in frustration at the candidates the corporate media puts up as the 'front-runners', and rightly so, but then they turn away in acceptance of this force-fed short list, when in reality if each person would instead stand up in support of a real Democrat despite the fact the media treats the fellow as a sideline, we really could bring the party back to where it is supposed to be.

Pan, you say you want a platform you can believe in? You want an optimistic vision for a better world? You want a leader who has demonstrated they won't sell out to the corporate interests and media polls? I won't say you will like every aspect, but I invite you to study Kucinich's platform and tell me if with that platform at the head of the party ticket, whether you would feel better about the party's positions.

I know that Dennis is considered by most a sidenote of the election. This is the very intention of the corporate media and those in control of this country. Having a candidate who represents the true values he does at the head of the party would make the Democratic Party an unacceptably strong representative of the people, and a dangerous threat to the hegemony of corporate and political power currently holding the reins in Washington.

The Democratic Party is the only organization with the power to challenge the current power structure. However, it can only do this with a leadership committed to doing so. Thus, I remain a Democrat, and I support candidates such as Dennis Kucinich who refuse to bow to corporate pressures, and instead see the Democratic Party as I do: the most powerful available tool for the American people to regain control of their own government.

host

How many congressional investigations, and the information that has come to us, as a result of them, has voting "Green", brought us?

IMO, politics is the art of the possible, and unlike voting republican, voting democrat is, at least, a compromise. I see no democrats, even under investigation in any significant degree, especially for selling out their constituents, or...in the cases of Cunningham, Foggo, Wade, Wilkes, and in the associated investigation of Jerry Lewis....our military spending potential.

The democrats are not perfect....far from it....but their "big" '90's "scandals"...the last time that they held real congressional power, resulted in Dan Rostenkowski's convictions for abusing the postal funds at his office's disposal, and Speaker Jim Wright's "crimes":
The only hope to level the wealth disparity we are experiencing is to tax more like Sweden and France do....the alternative is the disappearance of the middle class, and a higher concentration of wealth in possession of the top ten percent than the current 70 percent of total US wealth that the 2004 Fed report says that they control.

pan comments on the elderly losing their homes to property taxes. Since 2001, the political majority in DC declared a tax holiday on the wealthiest, resulting in less domestic spending that shifts the tax burden to local entities that raise money, in lieu of federal revenue sharing that was no longer collected....to local property taxes.

My concern is about a coming wave of impoverished elderly baby boomers vs. 75 percent of total wealth in the hands of the top ten percent, and then, by 2030..... eighty percent of all wealth in the hands of the top ten percent.

I don't have much sympathy for elderly folks who have experienced home value appreciation that they could have cashed out in the last few years, at two to ten times what they originally paid for their homes. They still can lock in the profit, via reverse mortgage arrangements.

The real estate price run up shifted the wealth, not away from those approaching their elder years....who already owned homes that then rose dramatically in value in many areas since the late '90's.....but away from younger people...young families entering the home market for the first time...paying the high prices to those who already owned at a much lower basis.

Read the Huey P. Long thread that I posted several months ago. The solution now is the same as it ever was...... a wealth tax. Voting "green", and bashing
democrats who are saints, compared to republicans, is not "an art of the possible", strategy.

We need to address the wealth distribution problem....it is not going away....and it will, if the trend continue....make the US look and feel more like
Mexico looks and feels today, than like Canada.

I expect a candidate with the awareness and concerns that Edwards embraces, at least moves us toward that priority.....I heard Wesley Clark talking about the present wealth disparity on a TV interview with Charley Rose, last night.

We need tax reform that supports the plight of young families locked out of the home market, maybe via tax deductions on the rent that they pay. We need assistance for the propertyless elderly, as a priority, not the ones who are still sitting on unrealized gains from huge property valuation run up, and we need tax reform that taxes capital gains at the same rates as income from wages and salaries, and a revamp of progressive taxes that are progressive,
50 percent or more on annual income above $400K.

Most of all, we must support and communicate with democrats in congress now....the investigations that they are currently pursuing must document the record of corruption that we are just now watching come to light.

Show me timely, "art of the possible" alternatives to my points and proposals....that will have a high probability of making a difference soon.... a political solution that will transfer control of congress and possibly the presidency, from democrats to the party of your choice....without an intermediate phase that gives republicans control as former democratic supporters phase into support for other parties....like the greens...and that addresses wealth disparity trends away from the poorer ninety percent of us.

"Art of the possible", it seems to me, rests in voting for the only other party that potentially can eliminate all republican control in the senate and the presidency......the democrats. Any other strategy splits the vote, as Nader did in 2000, away from democratic candidates....and more republicans win.

IMO, the sentiments and opinions of pan and will are praiseworthy, but do not bring the immediate results that must come about.

The_Jazz

Pan, I think that the answer to your final question is that we don't all agree on how best to fix the problems or the priority in which to fix them. For some, agreeing that a particular problem even exists is an insurmountable problem.

Will and I disagree that third parties are viable options. He has his opinion, and I have mine. Neither of us (will forgive me for putting words in your mouth) agrees with you that illegal immigration is as important as you think it is. So we have one guy screaming from the rooftops that illegal immigration is one of the most important problems facing the country and two guys agreeing that there are more important problems to face first but not on how to do so.

Personally, I agree that the Democratic Party has some major problems, some of them specific to individuals and some systemic. I think that Hillary as The Candidate would devastate the party for years to come; a friend told me earlier this week that I'm a moron for thinking so. He and I agree on most other policy issues, but this one is a big divider for us.

Pan, my personal favorite for President is unelectable (Bill Richardson). There are 2 people in my personal life that I think would make much better Presidents than any current candidate, but neither of them would ever consider politics.

I think that the answer to most of your questions is that we need someone like Washington, Jackson or Eisenhower to run for President, someone who is virtually drafted into the job. I don't know of anyone that could have possibly done that, although Colin Powell pre-2000 might have managed it. As it stands now, he still bears the stink of his complicity with the Bush administration. Every movement needs a leader, so I challenge you, pan6467, who should lead us? What person is going to have be able to set the priorities, find the answers and have the political capital to solve the problems?

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

dc_dux

There are signs that the Democratic party is returning to its core values...but you cant turn the ship of state on a dime. And they need to find their balls to respond to the belligerent rhetoric of the right. Liberal is not a dirty word.

Its interesting that no Democratic candidates are appearing at the upcoming Democratic Leadership Council convention this weekend....but they are all attending the YearlyKos progressive blogger gathering.

For those who dont know much about the DLC, it was created 20+ years ago by Joe Lieberman, former Senator John Breux and Gov (at the time) BIll Clinton to turn the Democratic party away from the left and more to what they described as the "center" of AMerican politics. Others decribed the DLC as "Republican light" and Democrats for the Leisure Class. The DLC distanced itself from traditional progressive interest groups and went corporate.

http://commonsense.ourfuture.org/wrong_right?tx=3

The mass of the Democratic party has been reawakened by the active progressive community. Now the leaders must follow and I am hopeful they will, particularly as many progressive views are gaining support by Independents. It just requires patience as well as outrage.

But it will come about by change from within, as Josh and Host noted, and not by abandoning the party.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

pan6467

Josh, Kucinich has a good platform, has always been true to his beliefs and never sold out.... but as one from North Central Ohio who has seen him and remembers him as mayor of Cleveland, he trusts the wrong people. He isn't corrupt but he is so gullible that he surrounds himself with very bad people.

Host, haven't had a chance to read your post, so can't comment on it, but will do so when I get home.

Jazz, just skimming over, I will take your challenge and have a few names to toss about when I get home from work.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

joshbaumgartner

Pan, that is an interesting thing to consider. I am not from Ohio, so perhaps I am not as intimately aware of this issue, but I don't doubt it per se.

I think however what is most important is to show that a person who stands up and stands strong upon good principles can be supported, if anything, to give more backbone to others who might be better leaders in the areas where Kucinich lacks, such as knowing how to select good people to work with. For example, I like Edwards, and I think that he really does believe in good principles, but he has at times allowed himself to be convinced that he had to hedge towards corporatism and what the media was saying instead of sticking to his principles. I'd like a person like that to be able to have more confidence that standing firm on the right thing doesn't mean that we the people are going to bolt from supporting him.

I guess what I'm saying is that conviction of principles is what I find most lacking amongst many of the Democratic leaders. So while Dennis himself may not be the right individual to be at the head for some reasons, I still think it is important to show the Democratic Party that conviction of principle is important and that the rest of the leadership not only can, but must show such conviction to successfully lead the Democratic Party in its role as a tool of the people. I want to show Democratic leaders that Democratic voters not only will, but are eager to support such conviction, through a strong showing by Kucinich and other candidates of similar conviction. The Obamas and Edwardses of the party I have every faith WANT to do the right thing; it is up to us as voters to demonstrate will support them when they do so. The corporate media is bombarding them daily with the message that we won't.

samcol

Host, You said the same things around the 04 election. Don't vote Libertarian it's a waste of vote blah blah blah. The Democrats took the win in congress, yet what have they changed? IMPEACHEMENT IS OFF THE TABLE ACCORDING TO THE SPEAKER. They are so weak and limp wristed it's sick. I have to agree with Will, pick who you like the best. The lesser of two evils just isn't working and hasn't worked for quite some time.

If there was someone in my districts like a Gravel, Kucinich or Ron Paul I'd probably vote for them, but since there isn't my vote's going Libertarian.

I'm still waiting for the Democrats to actually do something this term...

__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

Willravel

Then you need to reread my post. AGAIN, go do homework. There are HUNDREDS of political parties in the US. Can you name them all, and where each of them stands on the issues? No? Then go do your duty. Vote for the best person. This is "tough shit" it's "get off your ass". If you can't find anyone to vote for, run yourself.

Oh and Host, I'm not willing to compromise. Other than maybe Kucinich, there are no good Democratic candidates. They are all balless, pandering, politicophiles. They scapre and scrounge and concede. I'm willing to wait until others come to their senses and start to vote for the best person for the job regardless of their party.

host

The above article indicates to me that the deomcratic candidates are at least willing to listen to the liberal wing of the deomcratic party.

samcol, I want to confirm that you know my view of where the election last november has brought the democrats to, as far as their ability to "get things done" (like...for example....impeachment, or a legislative bill out of committee and actually passed into law, and then through a Bush veto and the override process necessary to actually make a bill into law....).

Pelosi is speaker, of "all of the people", if she has any hope of successfully building a consensus on any issue that can result in "crossover" votes from republicans, even as she keeps her own democrats from conservative districts, voting with the rest of the democratic caucus.....

She took impeachment "off the table", knowing what was known before what additional revelations of wrongdoing that the various democractically controlled investigative committees have, and continue to unearth,as the investigative process continues......

She has to weigh the reality that, even now, the democratic senate majority hinges on the health and recovery from brain surgery of senator Johnson (D-SD)...he still isn't able to attend senate voting sessions or committee meetings that he is assigned to. The other "wildcard" is former democratic and Bush war supporter, Joe Lieberman. Joe can move the senate to republican control by voting with them (49 republicans plus Lieberman, vs. 49 democrats without Johnson able to attend to vote, and Cheney able to vote to break any tie vote....) A Bush veto of any bill that passes in the house and senate, then requires 60 senate votes to override Bush's veto.

Impeachment, which could proabably pass in the house, would move to a senate trial that would require the "yes" votes of 49 active democratic senators, and Lieberman, and an additional 17 republicans, to result in a conviction and expulsion of Bush, Cheney, or Gonzales, for example.

The republicans in the senate have filibustered every move to vote on anything the democrats have proposed since january....they vote against the cloture motion required to move to an actual vote on any matter..... since 60 votes are required to achieve cloture....and the 60 votes needed, every time, necessitates votes of all active democrats, and Lieberman's vote, and votes of ten "crossover" republicans......
will, samcol, and pan.....didn't Ralph Nader draw enough votes away from Gore/Lieberman 2000, in Florida, to hand that state's presidential race to Bush?

Are your criticisms of the lack of accomplishments by congressional democrats as fair and as accurate as they could potentially be? Will Pelosi or Reid build any consensus that will bring more republican crossover votes, if they bring an impeachment action that cannot succeed in the senate? Isn't the real problem that the democratic senate majority is large enough to bring committee and bill drafting control to the democrats, but not the ability to bring bills to actual floor votes that, even if they occurred, would not be veto proof?

I'm at least as liberal/socialist in my view of what needs to happen in the US, as you are, will.....but I see the present choice as either attracting more votes for democrats in upcoming elections, if there is any hope of countering the uniformly conservative republican block in the senate, or withdrawing those votes in upcoming elections from democrats, <h3>assuring that republicans will keep or gain senate seats, and possibly the presidency again in 2008.</h3>

You want there to be other choices, but it takes money, like it or not, and momentum to beat the republican/corporatist political machine....and the democrats, with all of their advantages....access to wealthy contributors and the shear superiority of potential votes, are clearly the only ones who can counter the republican organizing and fund raising abilities.

We don't make the rules or design the playing field, but we sure as hell are victims (or benefactors) of the status quo.....remember?...it's about the art of the possible.....and Pelosi is not the first female SOTH and Hillary the first potentially successful female contender for the office of POTUS because either has ignored that political principle.

If you want change.....I advocate using the democrats to weaken and possibly neutralize the secretive criminal republicans, first, then build a coalition of greens/libertarians/other independents that can be grown to a point where it is a more powerful political opposition block vs. the democrats, than the republicans presently are....anything else does not pass an "art of the possible" "smell" test.....i.e., it's probably too clouded by idealism to ever actually achieve the power to change.....HELLL....the democrats cannot even achieve, even with all of the advantages that they held going into the November, 2006 elections, THE POWER TO CHANGE THINGS, that you say you want to achieve by supporting third party candidates.....NOW!

The reason is, even with all of the info that voters had when they went to the polls 9 months ago, the republican PR machine and campaign treasury, aided by the illegal campaign against voting rights enforcement of the partisanized DOJ, and it's intimidating election eve prosecutions "op", slammed against the senate gains that the democrats should have had.

Last night, in my post in the <a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=97421&page=2">What causes your rational hatred of George Bush?</a> thread, I posted the article that contained this description of one facet of the democratic (and every other competing party's).....opposition:

I have tirelessly (relentlessly) posted descriptions of the power and the depth of the opposition that you have to underestimate, or dismiss entirely in your idealistic zeal and raw indignation and outrage. Get it through your heads....there are several hundred, incredibly wealth, religiously indoctrinated, extremely committed, conservative "benefactors" of the republican machine that you seek to overcome.....as you endeavor, simultaneously, to diminish the democrats and build your grassroots political parties......

I am not an expert at knowing the opposition, but I do the reserch, I share it, and I listen to CNP/Salem radio whenever my car radio is on....(at least 90 minutes every effing day.....agggghhhh!!!!)

I know "stuff"...like this...and all of it influences the way people vote and who they contribute campaign donations to and doe volunteer political work for:
CNP is Salem radio, it's Amway...it's Blackwater.....private secuirty army, 20,000 strong...... Epperson of CNP and the Salem network, sponsors a politically ambitious, son-in-law, a child of migrant farmworkers.....

CNP...a secretive network of billionaire and near billionaire, christian evangelist zealots, teamed with AIPAC, and less prominent, religiously indoctrinated political/militaristic organizations.....less prominent, but richly funded and highly influential, and that's just one facet of the republican "ORG", that you seem to have no qualms about strengthening, by default, as a direct outcome of your "independent" politics.

I've laid it out for you, in post after post.....and you minimize what is actually at stake, politically, because you are "fed up".

Do you really think that the democrats are "the same" as the CNP billionaires, other politically active evangelicals, and the corporate benefactors of the republican cause?
John Chambers is CEO of Cisco Systems...there are probably hundreds of other CEO's of huge US/Multinationals Corps who match his political mindset.

I beg you to "wake TFU", and......as far as the direction of your posts and the sentiments in them.....to "STFU", too. I post this to you, based on the facts about the opposition and it's threat to our politics, facts that I share with you, over and over....and, if you read about CNP/Salem and their noise network and their townhall.com "web presence", and about the partisan "makeover" of the DOJ amd how it now suppresses voting, and YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT THE DEMOCRATS ARE part of your "IT's BOTH PARTIES"....dismissal, as you advocate for personally fragmenting the potential power of your own votes, then I'll accept that I cannot reach you!

Willravel

It's destructive to look at it that way. I wonder, host, can you look at any of the Democratic potentials and say that any of them represent most of your political philosophies? If so, then that's great. Vote away. Find him or her and support them with your last bit of energy. Even when I look at the person on stage who is closest, Kucinich, I still see serious disagreements.

We've allowed ourselves to be sucked into a system where representatives from each of the two major parties represents a serious concession from the average voter who doesn't just flip a coin or vote along party lines. You shouldn't have to vote for Kerry to keep Bush out of office. I'm unwilling to accept that. It's bullshit, and instead of buying into it and thus supporting it, I'm more than willing to stand outside of the two party system and choose someone who is worthy of my vote. I'm not willing to support the two party system, which is really to blame for the 2000 and 2004 elections as much as any person.

I myself have influence over anywhere from 40-100 votes. People know I actually do my homework and listen to me when I talk about this kind of thing. Host, you are far better versed than I in such matters, and I suspect that you carry a great deal of influence over your real community. How many such people are there out in the world? Those smart people who really study and make informed decisions when voting? And what if those people were able to weaken the stranglehold of the two party system? I know that if enough people can fight their urge to vote against, that people can learn to vote for again.

seretogis

I don't think that "corruption" counts as a political philosophy.

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Willravel

Flaming is against TFP policy.

Kadath

If you really thought this was a flame you would have reported it instead of making a show. Don't respond to sophomoric humor and you'll be better off. Or better yet, put him on your ignore list if you don't like what he says.

pan, it sucks to lose you from the ranks, but I'm sure out there is a political party that is a closer match to your own beliefs. You're not going to change the party on your own; you just have to watch the party shift and align yourself with someone else.

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it's quiet in here

Willravel

It wasn't a serious flame at all. I wouldn't want to bug the moderators for something so minor. Besides, some people might do it without knowing it.

pan6467

Ok, let me make a few things clear. These are my beliefs:

I believe if someone worked 40 years and has a house paid off, that they did their duty and shouldn't have to pay property taxes or income taxes. I don't think taking from those who succeeded and punishing them makes sense. I don't believe anyone who worked their ass off for 40 years should be taxed out of their home or forced to refinance or take "reverse mortgages" out so that their kids can't inherit the house and do what the decide. I don't believe in death taxes or estate taxes, for the average working family. However, I do think that billionaires should help society and should have to set up some type of independant funds to help the communities and nation. If they don't then tax 75%. BUT give them the choice. What we have now is NOT what this country was founded for. Taking away people's houses that worked hard and paid off the mortgage? Forcing their kids to sell the property to pay for their "reverse mortgages". I truly can't believe anyone would support this. I think the only ones that do are so full of hatred and wanting to show those who succeded whatever, that they have lost their sense of true fairness and humanity.

I believe companies if they move their factory/jobs to another area or country should be responsible for paying the worker's (they laid off/fired) education, unemployment and the community they left, 10 years worth of taxes, due upon the day they close.

I believe we need education to be the number 2 funded program in the country. I believe that not just kids but adults of all ages should have truly affordable access to college, this does not mean student loans and high tuitions. It means tuitions that can be afforded by someone working 40 hours, with more grants and scholarships available (this allows those who have been displaced training for a new job.

I believe defnse should be our #1 funded program and with that ONLY US companies building and providing technology. I believe that from Reagan to present we have shipped way too many of these jobs and technologies overseas. There was a reason that a toilet seat cost $1000. It was corporate welfare to keep companies R&D up and running, their costs down, and their prices competitive. Once we took that away, the companies had no incentives to keep jobs here and pay liveable wages with good benefits. Also, because of military funding we have seen cell phones, duct tape, microwaves, the internet, GPS, etc passed onto the populace.

I believe as part of defense, we should fund alternative energies and find renewable sources that we don't have to rely on any other country for.

I believe that we need to help people while down (Welfare, Unemployment, again Education, etc) but make the people realize that these are not "entitlements" nor "free lunches" but investments in their future and that they have to repay all benefits by providing 20 hours a week civil service/volunteer work in the community.

I believe moral lifestyle choices such as smoking, drinking, drugs, abortion, gay marriage, euthanasia, etc. are to be made by the communities and business owners, not government.

I believe that the government should be answerable to the people, thus US and state representatives should have monthly mandatory townhall meetings in the communities they represent and the Senators should have to visit each district in their state for a townhall meeting 1 time a year.

I believe that representatives, senators and the president should make as their salaries the average income level of the people they represent. This should inspire them to try to make sure their districts get fundings.

I believe waste should be cut (multimillion dollar bridges to nowhere, etc) and contracts to companies who provide shitty services (Halliburton with the food and supplies they gave our men in Iraq and Afghanistan) should be thoroughly investigated and not only have to pay the money back but can never recieve any governmental contract again.

I believe our armed forces should be used solely for defense of our nation and that we should work to have peaceful negotiations with every country, those that do not wish to be our friend, will not recieve 1 penny of aid from us.

I believe Isreal needs to work a lasting peace with their neighbors or they recieve no aid from us. This does not give their neighbors a free ride to hold out, their neighbors and countries in that region (Syria, Iran, Egypt, Libya, etc) must negotiate in faith also.

I believe we need to have open communications with China and demand they uphold our copyrights, trademarks and patents or we will no longer do business with them or any country that is caught infringing on them.

I believe companies should pay the government for independant labs to test drugs, etc. and that these labs are answerable only to the government and must show all records of testing.



That is what I believe, that is my utopian party platform. However, that doesn't exist, I understand that. But there has to be a party or group of people wanting those things also. The Dems. in some ways were close to that but strayed and became something that I don't recognize.

Some Repubs have been close to that but they have been silenced or for whatever reason once in power changed thier voices (Voinivich).

I understand compromise is needed and there is wiggle room for compromise in most of the above (the townhall meetings and pay....no compromise).

I think this is what the majority of Americans want. I don't believe that the majority is some whacked out far lefty nor do I believe that the majority is some right winged nutcase.... I believe the majority wants just a fair, honest government that truly spends tax dollars helping the people and not lining corporate pockets.

Unfortunately, both parties seem to want to line corporate pockets and not help the people. It's ass backwards and we need the right people to turn it around.

The Dems. in control don't want this, obviously because all they can do is spew hatred, blame and play partisanship games. The Repubs in control are no better, they spew hatred, throw Clinton's mistakes up, play partisanship and blame. Neither is doing anything positive.

It has been mentioned minimum wage was increased.... ooooo.... tell me exactly how that is helping anyone as inflation grows, jobs leave and the jobs created are paying shit wages with very few benefits. It truly accomplished nothing but good PR and even that is questionable.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

You're close to a dozen parties, including Libertarian.

Slims

I usually vote Libertarian.

Not because I believe they have a real chance of winning an election, they don't.

But rather because I believe I can make a very real difference by 'throwing my vote away.'

Here's how I see it: If a sizeable percentage of voters flee their party in favor of, for example, the libertarian party, then mainstream parties and candidates will be forced to adjust their platforms in order to avoid losing those votes in future elections. 3% either way can win or lose most elections these days.

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"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

joshbaumgartner

As far as the whole 'throwing your vote away' thing, it seems to me to be based on the logic that since the corporate media and political power holders have determined that so-and-so is the legitimate candidate, and therefore the others have no chance, voting for one of the others will mean throwing your vote away. But it would seem to me that if that logic held water, voting for the 'anointed' would be just as much throwing your vote away.

In my opinion you can 'give' your vote away by tactical voting or otherwise voting for someone that isn't your favored candidate, but to 'throw' it away you'd have to not vote, or maybe vote randomly I guess.

In truth, the only way to use your vote and have it represent your will is to vote for the candidate you truly feel is the best one. Whether even then it is respected might be a matter of discussion, but it certainly won't be if it is used other ways or not used at all.

ubertuber

Not for the first time, I really wish we could vote "none of the above".

That would help to turn disenchanted voters into a block, which is the only thing the major parties will chase.

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

flstf

With the system we have now the only way to vote "none of the above" is to not vote at all. What if they had an election and no one showed up.
Sometimes I wonder if participating in these rigged elections sends the message that we approve.

samcol

You just said exactly what I've been thinking since the last election. Wouldn't a null turnout be the biggest no confidence vote ever? Congress and the President are almost at all time lows for approval ratings. What if in 08 no one voted?

I mean, in 06 I voted on a machine that crashed 3 times while I was waiting in line.

I feel the same way about voting sometimes. Doesn't it just confirm that you approve of this crimminal behavior by congress and the president?

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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

host

Here is some of what we know that the republicans "in charge" have done to us in the past few years, including building domestic detention camps and throwing at least a billion dollars in "security contracts" to an extremely right wing, CNP mega millionaire who has created and is "sole owner" of an elite, 20,000 member private security force that barely existed seven years ago....and then there is the FEMA contract to build a huge domestic detention center program, and there is datamining and aggressive secret "analysis" of all of our forms of communication, and the dismantling of the DOJ, turning it into an enforcement agency for conservative, affluent whites, and against the minority victims that it once was organized to protect....., and your reaction, even though much of what we know...at least the malignant secretive part of it.....the part that is now confirmed to be totally resistant to oversight and accountability, is due to investigative challenges by democrat led congressional oversight, just in it's sixth month now......

<h3>...and your reaction??? Your reaction, if I have this right....is to fragment your political efforts and your vote, into a variety of third party candidacies....buoyed by the idealistic notion that it will take down "both parties.....when the actual outcome will be renewed republican control</h3>...and more....of this....thank you very much....


...and you're dreaming if you persuade yourself that your efforts will result in a smaller , less powerful republican party stranglehold....

samcol

Host, rehashing countless GOP scandals and lies does nothing for me anymore. I already know how corrupt they are. The GOP is bad, so I should vote for Democrats. I have no idea how you make that conclusion.

You are almost the flip side of the coin to these unwavering GWB supporters. Bush could have human sacrifices in the white house lawn and people would still follow him if he said it was for terrorism. Likewise your continued support for the Democratic party and their lack luster performance is depressing frankly.

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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

roachboy

Oligarchy
this is what oligarchy looks like. the democrats jerked to the right across the 1980s not because it made sense in terms of the country, but because they decided that it was a good idea of follow the polls at the time and transform themselves into moderate republicans. within a oligarchy, faction rotation looks like this: parties represent different tactical positions arrayed within a general agreement as to strategic goals.

i understand the impulse to do something rash like vote libertarian--i wouldnt do it as i think libertarian politics less coherent than anarchism and there is no anarchist candidate. but in the present context, host is right about what it means.

and casting a balnk ballot is very different from not voting: blank ballots allow for the electorate to actively protest the election itself. not voting does not allow for that. you simply drop outside the set of those who vote. in french elections, you can vote with a blank ballot--it has interesting effects at times. in the american system, it is apparently the case that there can be no problems with the elections and that if you voter have a problem with the election then you can join that vast percentage of people who do not vote. which of course also means that you rejection of a particular election gets blurred into your not having paid attention, so there really is no space for that gesture. but hey, the americans like to think their degenerate political system is perfect, so perhaps that doesnt bother you.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

joshbaumgartner

Actually, what makes more impact is when people show up to vote but don't actually select a candidate. There is always a noise level of 'undervotes' (less than a percentage point), but when a particular election shows an abnormally high undervote total, especially when other elections on the same ballot have normal returns, is a big sign that voters truly dislike all candidates available.

So if you would like to make a statement by not voting, make sure to show up at the polls or else you will just be figured as part of the half of this country that don't care (and hence you will be de facto approving of whatever outcome arises).

host

I try to keep informed, I share what shapes my opinion, and my priority is to have a personal political strategy that is in my best interests....and it has to be feasible that it can accomplish getting elected.

My support of the democrats is a compromise, and although it is a disappointing and frustrating concession to support them, I do it because I accept some things that you may not.

I accept that my support of federal progressive income taxes and inheritance taxes on million dollar plus estates, in a country like this one, where the bottom half own just 2-1/2 percent of all assets, and the next 40 percent, just 27-1/2 percent of all assets, and with the gap widening in fa tvor of the top ten percent who already own 70 percent of everything....is in synch with the reality of contemporary wealth distribution.....

I accept that it is unrealistic to believe that federal deficit or debt reduction will be aided by reduced spending, going forward, because there is no history of spending reduction, the rate of annual federal debt increase was pared from an average of $250 billion in the early 90's, down to just $18 billion, annually, by 2000....during a seven years span when the democrats held the presidency and one congressional branch.

With an aging population now, and with new annual federal treasury debt accumulating at an average of $412 billion per year, these past six years, a tax policy change reverting to the pre-2001 progressive income tax rates and the inheritance tax, seem to offer the only realistic remedy to reverse the debt accumulation trend, and I am skeptical that it is even possible to add a spending freeze to the taxing solution, since there is also the added expense that did not exist six years ago....the expense of annual interest on $3 trillion borrowed since 2001.

I observe "stuff" like this:


<h3>The bottom quote box is a fitting example, delivered just this past saturday, of six years of unchecked lies and contradictions, intended to transfer authority from us to them, and the following is an example of what I see you advocating, via your politics, to interrupt or to end.... at a critical time....evidence of resumption of checks and balances, voted into existence, just last november....WHY NOT GIVE IT A CHANCE?</h3>

filtherton

I'm gonna use my vote ironically - mitt romney all the way motherfuckers.

pig

instead of a vote for 'none of the above,' i'd rather be able to vote against a candidate. actively take one vote away from them. that way, my vote in somewhere in the SE might have a chance of actually mattering. i think for many people who view voting as a chance to pick the candidate they feel is the least dangerous, it's a clearer depiction of a voter's intent.

pan: i don't know what to say about your view of the democratic party. i honestly didn't read everything above, but i think i am familiar with your position. you're a populist - i don't think our government really caters to such these days. see the oligarchy bit.

i think you'd have to have a michael mcdonald 'takin it to the streets' type political montage moment to have your views represented. personally, i think you're better off being active at the local level, where you might find some causes worthy of engagement.

filthy: hell yes mitt - all the way.

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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style