Driving...a right or privilege? - Page 4 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 06-21-2007, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

let us not use arguments of extreme opposites. it doesn't work. Do we need laws? yes, we do. But laws SHOULD be, and used to be at one point in history, to simply define what would happen if you caused harm to another. Nowadays, we have laws that ban conduct, even if that conduct causes no harm to anyone....just that it MIGHT cause harm to someone. Do we really need to be babysat by the government now?

I like how conveniently you keep skipping my questions to you. I guess because you can't argue against them you turn a deaf ear and blind eye.

so you'd be happy with a doctor that was taught by his parents????

perhaps then you find this okay? I mean it's his parents teaching him... would it be okay if he was operating on YOU, again, it's for his pursuit of happiness since they want him to be the youngest surgeon in the GBOWR.

Quote:

15-Year-Old Performs Surgery in India
BY MUNEEZA NAQVI

ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

NEW DELHI -- The 15-year-old son of two doctors performed a filmed Caesarean section birth under his parents' watch in southern India in an apparent bid to gain a spot in the Guinness Book of World Records as the youngest surgeon.

Instead, the boy's father could be stripped of his licenses and may face criminal charges, officials said Thursday.

Dr. K. Murugesan showed a recording of his son performing a Caesarean section to an Indian Medical Association chapter in the southern state of Tamil Nadu last month, said Dr. Venkatesh Prasad, secretary of the association. The video showed Murugesan anesthetizing the patient.

"We were shocked to see the recording," Prasad told The Associated Press, adding that the IMA told Murugesan that his act was an ethical and legal violation.

Murugesan owns and runs a maternity hospital in the city of Manaparai, Prasad said in a telephone interview from Manaparai. The family could not be immediately reached for comment.

Murugesan, who could possibly be prevented from practicing and face criminal charges for allowing his son to perform the operation, expressed no regret and accused the Manaparai medical association of being "jealous" of his son's achievements, Prasad added.

"He said this was not the first surgery performed by his son and that he had been training him for the last three years," said Prasad.

Murugesan told the medical association that he wanted to see his son's name in the Guinness Book of World Records.

Prasad said that his team had reported the surgery to the state's top medical association in state capital, Chennai.

State health secretary V.K. Subburaj told reporters Thursday that the government would investigate.

"We'll get the report and then we'll see whether there are any violations ... prima facie it looks like there is a big violation," he said.

"We will definitely take action against the concerned medical officers."

ratbastid · 06-22-2007, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

Do we really need to be babysat by the government now?

All we have left on this subject is a difference of opinions about styles of government. In my opinion, it's preferable to have the government actively managing for safety on the roads.

I'm interested to see how you'd feel about that after having a loved one killed by a perfectly legal 8-year-old driver.

kutulu · 06-22-2007, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

In fact, this approach HAS to cost lives. If there's no driver's test, then the only way we know someone shouldn't be driving is after they've demonstrated that behind the wheel.

It's the typical retroactive libertarian bs.

shakran · 06-24-2007, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

Does having a drivers license ensure that everyone licensed to drive is never going to cause or be in an accident? No, in fact i'd venture to say that there are more licensed drivers involved in accidents, or worse, crimes with cars than there are unlicensed drivers. So, if a license doesn't ensure everyones safety, why is it there? what really is its usefulness?

Nice try, but either you failed statistics or you're deliberately trying to deceive. Which is it? The ratio of licensed to unlicensed drivers in the US is extremely high, so of course there will be more wrecks involving licensed drivers. That doesn't mean licensing doesn't do anything. I really shouldn't have to explain this to someone who lives in reality.

joshbaumgartner · 06-25-2007, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

Nice try, but either you failed statistics or you're deliberately trying to deceive. Which is it? The ratio of licensed to unlicensed drivers in the US is extremely high, so of course there will be more wrecks involving licensed drivers. That doesn't mean licensing doesn't do anything. I really shouldn't have to explain this to someone who lives in reality.

I will say that the time my license was suspended was when I drove the most obediently and carefully. However, your point is correct of course. Now if someone can show some data to indicate that there is a greater rate of accidents amongst licensed drivers, I would be interested to see that...although admittedly very surprised.

dc_dux · 06-25-2007, 10:28 AM

If recent Bush admin (DHS) proposed regulations to implement the Real ID Act (passed by the Repub Congress and signed by Bush in 2005) are not overturned, get ready for a federal ID to replace your state drivers license in the next 5 years:

Enacted as part of an emergency Iraq war spending bill (in 2006), the Real ID Act compels state governments to issue driver's licenses that follow national ID standards to be set by Homeland Security. Eventually, Americans without the federalized ID (with barcodes and possibly RFID tags) will not be able to use their state-issued ID to do things like open a bank account, enter federal buildings, or fly on a commercial airline.
http://news.com.com/Congress+rethink...tag=st.ref.goo

Some states have expressed their opposition by enacting specific state legislative opposing the Real ID Act with language not to comply ...

... but is it too little, too late, with the federal law already on the books (with the unwavering backing of Bush and many Repubs in Congress) and final regulations nearly complete?

The_Jazz · 06-25-2007, 10:39 AM

DC - what in the world does a national ID card have to do with driving priviledges? I know that the drivers license is the default ID for the vast majority of the population, but that doesn't mean that the Federal government is getting into the licensing business.

The Federal ID would never replace the drivers license's primary fuction - licensing you to drive a car. Even if your state cooperates, you would still have to have a drivers license.

In other words, this doesn't mean squat to the questions at hand.

dc_dux · 06-25-2007, 10:49 AM

Jazz....the Real ID Act absolutely gets the Federal government in the licensing business.

Read the draft regs. It sets minimum standards and issuing requirements for drivers licenses (altough it does include alternative options for states that so choose), and "other purposes".

Sorry if its too far off topic.

The_Jazz · 06-25-2007, 10:53 AM

DC - no it doesn't. At all. What it does do is make the states conform to a common template that provides a specific set of information in a particular format (bar code). The sole purpose of this legislation, in this context, is information.

It does not allow the federal government to test your driving ability nor does it allow them to forbid you from driving. They are leaving that up the states.

View Poll Results: driving, right or privilege
A basic fundamental right	1	2.27%
pure privilege when the government allows	17	38.64%
A right subject to reasonable restrictions or regulations	26	59.09%
Voters: 44. You may not vote on this poll

06-25-2007, 10:28 AM	#126 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	If recent Bush admin (DHS) proposed regulations to implement the Real ID Act (passed by the Repub Congress and signed by Bush in 2005) are not overturned, get ready for a federal ID to replace your state drivers license in the next 5 years: Enacted as part of an emergency Iraq war spending bill (in 2006), the Real ID Act compels state governments to issue driver's licenses that follow national ID standards to be set by Homeland Security. Eventually, Americans without the federalized ID (with barcodes and possibly RFID tags) will not be able to use their state-issued ID to do things like open a bank account, enter federal buildings, or fly on a commercial airline. http://news.com.com/Congress+rethink...tag=st.ref.goo Some states have expressed their opposition by enacting specific state legislative opposing the Real ID Act with language not to comply ... ... but is it too little, too late, with the federal law already on the books (with the unwavering backing of Bush and many Repubs in Congress) and final regulations nearly complete? __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 06-25-2007 at 10:35 AM..

06-25-2007, 10:39 AM	#127 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	DC - what in the world does a national ID card have to do with driving priviledges? I know that the drivers license is the default ID for the vast majority of the population, but that doesn't mean that the Federal government is getting into the licensing business. The Federal ID would never replace the drivers license's primary fuction - licensing you to drive a car. Even if your state cooperates, you would still have to have a drivers license. In other words, this doesn't mean squat to the questions at hand. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

06-25-2007, 10:49 AM	#128 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	Jazz....the Real ID Act absolutely gets the Federal government in the licensing business. Read the draft regs. It sets minimum standards and issuing requirements for drivers licenses (altough it does include alternative options for states that so choose), and "other purposes". Sorry if its too far off topic. __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire

06-25-2007, 10:53 AM	#129 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	DC - no it doesn't. At all. What it does do is make the states conform to a common template that provides a specific set of information in a particular format (bar code). The sole purpose of this legislation, in this context, is information. It does not allow the federal government to test your driving ability nor does it allow them to forbid you from driving. They are leaving that up the states. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo