mixedmedia

On my last dramatic note on this thread, I'd just like to state that the blackened cynic in me who thinks big, scary thoughts believes that mankind sealed its fate when it developed concepts like religion and national borders in order to separate and keep us apart. This is where my thinking on this issue stems from. I'm not of the mind that everyone on this thread taking a stand against illegal immigration is a racist or a xenophobe. (Although, I am hedging my bets with some.) I'm just a person with a very low tolerance for "us and them" thinking. I think it's a bad habit that has led to some of the worst atrocities ever committed by man. Granted, this time and place and this discussion may not be ideal for exercising these reactions, these tendencies I have, to keep people identifying positively with each other. Having compassion and understanding for each other. Then again, it may be. I don't know.

Just wanted to say all that...

John Lennon also has a song, and you might of heard it before, Pan, that goes...

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

roachboy

i looked in one more time---positions have differentiated somewhat, and i suppose that is a good thing in itself--i dont agree with cyn, for example, but i wouldn't argue against him in the same way that i was arguing against the main positions that obtained in here earlier. maybe in another thread a different discussion will be possible.

i wanted to make one thing clear in this context:

pan:

if your last two or three posts have been referencing what i have put in this thread, i would suggest that you re-read what i wrote with a more level head than you appear to have---i made it quite clear--as clear as i could manage--that the problem i have with your posts in particular follows from the LOGIC THAT YOU HAVE CHOSEN TO ADOPT--i do not impute any position to you as a human being--the false, misleading, unsubstanitated and unsubstantiatable categories that you use, the qualities that you impute to this fiction "ILLEGAL immigrant" that you substitute for undocumented workers, or migrant workers, and the way you combine these categories and qualities--THOSE ELEMENTS are what lead you straight into neofascist territory.

if i thought you WERE a neofascist, i wouldn't waste my time interacting with you at all. trust me on this one.

your posts demonstrate the argument that i was making that the POLITICAL FRAMEWORK itself is dangerous, that it can lead people who in other areas are NOT likely to espouse front national-style positions straight into that sort of territory.
and that is not a good place.

that's all i have to say.
i am not going to return to this corpse of a thread.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

dc_dux

Pan....the problem with your scenario is that most Americans only agree with two thirds of it...fine those who hire them and tighen the borders. According to most polls, an overwhelming majority believe in provding a path to citizenship for those already here.

The rest of your latest comments are a bit too emotional for any futher response.

The BEST solution I have seen is the new bi-partisan "Security Through Regularized Immigration and a Vibrant Economy (STRIVE) Act" introduced in the House last month (better than last year's bills).

It provides for comprehensive border security, more funding and support for state/local law enforcement across the country to get the real criminals (gang members, drug dealers, money launderers...) among the illegals, a new employment verification program, guest worker program for jobs,primarily agricultural (with the jobs first offered to citizens but the workforce needs not met)... and most of all..

A two-step process towards EARNED LEGALIZATION FOR QUALIFIED, HARDWORKING INDIVIDUALS:

THe first step is to request Conditional Nonimmigrant Status that would last for 6 years, while the person would go to the "back of the line" for permanent status. :

To qualify, the illegal immigrant must:
* Establish continuous presence in the U.S. on or before June 1, 2006;
* Attest to employment in the U.S. before June 1, 2006 and employment since that date (and submit related documentation);
* Complete criminal and security background checks; and
* Pay a $500 fine plus necessary application fees (fine exemption for children).

Then after 6 years and waiting in line, they can apply for Earned Citizenship:
* Meet employment requirements during the six-year period immediately preceding the application for adjustment;
* Pay a $1,500 fine plus application fees;
* Complete criminal and security background checks;
* Establish registration under the selective service (if applicable);
* Meet English and civic requirements;
* Undergo a medical examination;
* Pay all taxes;
and
* Meet a “Legal Reentry” requirement during the six-year period in conditional nonimmigrant status

This is in line with what a majortiy of Americans want. More from the Republican co-sponsor from the border state of Ariz (link)

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

archetypal fool

I don't think this thread can go any further either. At this point, we're delving into irreconcilable fundamental differences in individual personalities. If we continue now, it will just become a flame war. In the end of the day, everyone's points have been laid down, and it's up to who ever's reading to make up their mind on the issue.

Much like religion, this isn't the kind of topic which will foster anything except angst for the other side, and if internet debates have taught us anything, it's that most people already have their views locked into them, and will defend them vehemently.

Anyways...yeah...Gingrich sucks.

mixedmedia

I'm so glad you found your way here to TFP, arch. You done good.

And I don't say that just because I happen to agree with you, lol.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

dc_dux

We can still STRIVE for better

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Willravel

I have no problem pulling out for the good of the thread or getting back on track. I don't mean to threadjack, and I apologize if I did.

Are you more interested in perusing Gingrch or bilingual education?

archetypal fool

Oh, I don't mean anyone in particular. It's just that, really, what more can be said? At this point, it's our core values which are on the table. I've been somewhat offended by some posts, and I'm sure our opponents have been offended by our apparent justification for breaking this law. There's nothing I, or Willravel, or dc_dux, or mixedmedia, ubertuber, or anyone else with our sentiments can do to make Cynthetiq, pan6467, djtestudo, or people of their ilk understand our stance. Like-wise, they can't make us understand their stances, when our core values are so fundamentally incompatible.

If the debate hasn't been resolved, then, by all means, let's continues, but, as I said above, I don't know if anything productive will come of it (but then again, what do I know? I'm new here...).

Now that's some good stuff right there.

pan6467

Good post, but like I said, until the laws change, illegals are still illegals.

And people seem to miss the point where I stated illegals having to get into trucks with little or no ventilation, paying people to bring them and not knowing if they will truly make it....

That's really humane and supporting ILLEGALS supports that humane life and the parasites that feast off the people that feel they have no choice but to pay that price.

ILLEGAL = ILLEGAL..... change the laws and then see who is still against immigration before you wrongly accuse people of racism, neo-nazistic, KKK, white supremicist behaviors or beliefs.

As for Lennon.... good point, Ms. Mixed.... But Lennon and Jesus also taught and lived that you shouldn't break laws, you should protest and change laws before you break them.

Protest the laws, change the laws but don't break the laws or condone or turn your back on those breaking them.

(I'm sure someone will still bring into the fold petty traffic laws.... yes speeding through a city or school zone should be punished doing 70 in a 65 on the highway is called survival in some cases and comparing it to illegal immigration is idiotic.)


PS: RB my previous post was not addressed to you, it was addressed to the attacks in general.... if you read over the entire thread, those names and labels were tossed around quite liberally.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

archetypal fool

Awww, man...Just when I though this thread had died a peaceful death...

Willravel

So if it were legal, you wouldn't have a problem with it?

From this I see two answers, yes or no. Yes, you would still have a problem with it, would let us examine why specifically you are against illegal immigrants beyond the simple "it's illegal" argument, which doesn't tell us much about your reasoning. No, you wouldn't have a problem, might make your position a lot weaker. I'm just curious. Since you and I get a long, but disagree on this issue, I see an opportunity for common ground.

pan6467

Excuse me??????? I think I have the right to answer something addressed to me without getting this response.


NO Will, I have stated all along.... change the laws and I have no problem. Believe it or not....

Read my last few threads..... I would rather change the laws than to have people riding in trucks with no ventilation.

Sometimes one must take their stance to an extreme they may not even agree with in order to be heard and to reach true compromise.

Ask yourself and please feel free to point it out and call me on it..... Did I attack anyone? Did I call anyone names or reply with negative smilies?

Now is the reverse true? Were people labelling me, calling me names, (either outright or thinly disguised?)

One cannot have true discussion if the responses are not of equal respect.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

archetypal fool

Fine. I apologies. The humor was kind of subtle...

No hard feelings, Pan?

pan6467

It's cool man... no hard feelings.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

archetypal fool

It's nice to see we're finally seeing them as humans. I'm sorry if you've felt this way all along, but in our defense, your earlier posts didn't quite reflect that sentiment...

By the way, how do you feel about the STRIVE Act dc_dux showed us earlier?

Willravel

I believe it completely. You're a damned reasonable person. In all honesty, I've been more busy this week, so I didn't have time to read all your posts. This was a horribly weak way for me to get the entire gist of your position in one shot.
I couldn't agree more. The thing is, if there are less illegals coming into, living in, and working in the US, the less likely things are to change. If they went home, that would mean the system works. The result would be fatality and crime rates tripling in Mexico, and severe damage to our economy. I can't get behind that.
I agree, so long as you don't go too far. For example, I think Bush should be impeached and imprisoned. I would never say I want him dead or tortured.
Not that I can see.
Unless you're a member of the Minutemen, I don't recall calling you anything. I'll go back and see if others did. You used a lot of caps, which got my attention (which I'm sure was your intention).
And it would take quite a bit to lose the respect you've earned from me here.

I, personally, see bilingual education as a step in the right direction. It'd be nice if Canada, the US and Mexico could be chummy like the EU some day. I think all three nations could benefit greatly from it, and it would help to stabilize the economy of Central America. Newt, on the other hand, is an antique. He's leftover casserole from the 90s, no longer decent enough to stomach. It wouldn't be a waste to simple toss his impotent opinions out with the trash. I'll bet he smells like cheap single malt and cheese.

ubertuber

Hey Pan:

I've got a question for you - something I'm a little fuzzy on that you've hinted at in your posts. Is it your contention that illegal immigrants receive more social benefits (medical care, etc.) than poor citizens?

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Cynthetiq

Are you implying then that illegals coming in are "protesting" or "civil disobedience" to change things? That's the implication I read from your statement above.

Fatality and crime rates tripling???? I'm sorry did you just pull that number outta your ass? Because that also implies that crime rates would DECREASE here if Illegals did not exist within our borders. And again, why is it my problem? There are enough problems here WITHIN America to fix before I worry about somewhere else. There are enough poor Americans that need our help before helping someone who is here illegally, or even back at their homeland before they come here.

Have you seen the effect of NAFTA on industries? I've seen it first hand. I've seen 3rd and 4th generation garment manufacturer owners, close their business because it competed against cheaper labor pools. People who employed 150-300 people having to either invest in moving their company into NAFTA zones outside of the US borders. Some had to uproot or split the family to live outside of US borders. Into countries and areas that have high crime rates.

Vibrant sections of the garment industry here in NYC completely wiped out. Even the Chinese sweatshops were impacted because they had a symbiotic relationship with the garment manufacturers. It used to be that if you walked around the garment district you'd see it bustling with workers, fabrics, and fashion. It hasn't been that way since the mid to late 90s.

uber, I'm of the belief that Illegals get more benefits than poor americans because they have learned how to exploit the system. Maybe it's media driven but I have heard of people who come here from Santo Domingo just to get welfare checks, figure out some exploit within the system and collect monies even though they have returned back to Santo Domingo.

As far as healthcare goes, again, it's what I hear from the media, illegals get healthcare coverage that uninsured americans do not.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

dc_dux

I NEVER, in any post here, made such accusations. I suggested that IMO, some of your comments were ugly (shoot to kill at the border, illegals are parasitic leaches - a gross generalization) and ignorant (illegal immigration is a felony, illegals dont pay taxes).

I agree with you that we should also absolutely prosecute, to the full extent of the law, those who engage in transporting persons across the border for profit.

.
In our system of justice, we have plea bargaining (for far more serious and deadly crimes), serving less than a full sentence for good behavior, etc.

I want illegal immigration stopped as much as you, but for those already here and contributing in a positve way, I am just not as rigid as you in my interpretation of justice. I believe in tempering justice with fairness and compassion for those who are not hardened criminals. That is the American way!

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

pig

I also fail to see how the legal or illegal status of immigrants, specifically from mexico, will do jack shit about the increase in spanish-speaking united states citizens / dwellers, the parading of other cultures flags or celebrations, the change of "traditional" american culture. certainly at present, the two issues are linked. however, if all the laws were changed so that will and pan could go skipping down the street singing duets of mixed english/spanish lyrics, all the issues with people speaking spanish (or whatever other language) still remain.

secondly, i'm not going to exhaustively review and cite from the thread, but come on pan, lets not play the 'i'm so innocent, where is all this coming from?' card here bro. you made some pretty strong statements, amongst them the shoot on site statement, and some people said "hmmm...that certainly sounds xenophobic to me and might border on some racism" and all of a sudden you're pulling this big-eyed "all you people calling me a xenophobic nazi pigfucking KKK loving babyeating dragon!!" shit so people would back down from some of the claims / questions. no one here called you explicitly racist, but it was either stated or implied that you might have some xenophobic tendencies on this one. maybe no one else will, but i'll stand by that part of the claim. and its not just you, as roach pointed out, its the position and the logic behind it.

as far as the side discussion with cyn and will, i'll save the homeless for another thread, but as far as legal immigrants looking down on illegal immigrants, i would tend to think that would also be something that would need to be evaluated on individual merit, no? i mean, i can understand where you're coming from cyn, but shit it seems like you've just got a dried up compassion well. on some of these issues it seems you seem to implicitly take the position that your shit doesn't stink. i know you state that you know it does, but i think you're assuming that all people who illegally have migrated here have been in the same situation that your family was; both in terms of living situation as well as proximity to the states or other large industrialized nation. am i missing something? that just seems rather 1-dimensional on these types of political discussions.

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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Willravel

Whether they know it or not, that's what they're doing. The idea behind civil disobedience would be that people don't obey the laws they don't believe in to change the law. I'm sure that Mexicans would like to make getting in to and working in the US safer.
I've calmed down. It's your turn. No, I didn't pull that number out of my ass. Statistics show that every time the INS has tightened down across the board, crime rates have shot up close to the border on the Mexican side.
I'm afraid your assumption about the implications of my guesswork would be flawed. Imagine this: a family, out of work and starving, needs to get across the border into the US in order to work. Imagine there are a thousand of these families. Imagine they all try to cross the boarder with their belongings over the time span of a week. Now imagine that there is no more immigration anymore. Suddenly you have an influx of poor families into small border communities. They are desperate, and they make good prey from former coyotes who now find themselves out of work. Not only that but the families are now starving and need to start stealing themselves in order to eat. It's a damn dangerous situation.

The alternative is that many of the families make it to the US and get work. Once they have work, they have some security. They're not likely to need to steal to eat if they can afford food. They also send a little home, which keeps their family in Mexico more safe and less likely to need to turn to crime.
NAFTA is just another way for the US government to give a free ride to US corporations to move in to Central America and exploit them freely. I'd like to see NAFTA destroyed. The free trade thing only works when corporations can be held responsible for their actions. If they can't, then free trade is a weapon.

Cynthetiq

This may seem one dimensional but this is a simplistic view for me. I'm not speaking of this from anything but personal experience and reiterating my feelings on that. If you look at all my posts, there is only one time that I've addressed anything to engage in a solution or discuss this differently than how I feel about the issue.

I guess when you stand on line for something and multiple people cut in front of you, it's fine for you. They shouldn't have to wait, they don't need to wait, it's fair for you to have prepared, gotten there early to secure your place in line you abided by the rules established and followed them and they didn't. It doesn't upset you in the least?

I cannot speak for anyone else and how they feel about their family emigrating to the US. I know people who were refugees, people who sought political asylum, poor, rich, connected, but they all followed the processes established to secure being here.

Now the implication that "my shit don't stink" is unjustified. The difference is that I accept responsibility for the indiscretions and transgressions commited that are either against another person, government, animal, thing. I do not excuse the idea that "because they have it hard" or any other kind of mitigating excuse. You may call it a dried up compassion well, but I believe I have enough compassion without having to be either a person who tramples over everyone else or gets trampled over. I am a firm believer of don't do the crime if you can't do the time. If you do something right or wrong, be ready for the consequences good or bad that come from that action.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

pig

cyn,

i thought about the shit not stinking analogy when i posted it; i agree it doesn't express exactly what i want to say, but i'm having trouble putting the thoughts into words. perhaps it rolled up in the waiting in line analogy; as i said before, it seems to me that when you lump all illegals into a category and assign them a blanket sentence, it starts to head in that direction of unsmelly shit to me. if i was waiting in line at the bank, and someone just like me cut in, yeah, i'd be pissed. but what if they're elderly, or if they don't look well, or if they have kids with them, or if (somehow i know) that they are more desparate than i? i can wait a bit because i've got an hour lunch break, and a few minutes won't kill me.

i'm not trying to trivialize your family's previous predictaments...how could i? i don't know their situations...but in answer to the question, as i said: i can't say across the boards that illegal immigrants are always just a bunch of immoral rule breakers fuckers. sometimes rules are broken, but as has been pointed out that's a different consideration from fundamental morality, in my opinion. incidentally, i agree that you shouldn't do the crime if you can't do the time, but that doesn't mean i look down on someone who does the crime necessarily. it also means i don't look down on them if they do the crime and don't get caught. in situations like illegal immigration, if they are a good person, etc, i tend to think more along the lines of "hats off the them." as has been previously stated, its not like they're taking the easy way out. they're taking on a lot of risk and danger to try to make things better for themselves and their loved ones. not always, but in a lot of cases.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

pan6467

In answer to some's questions....

I did say shoot on sight..... but would you rather be shot and killed on sight or die of suffocation in a truck?

No, not everyone called or implied names.

Pigglet, where do I mention anything about LEGAL immigrants or LEGAL immigration needing to be cut?

If I were xenophobic as you stated here:

Then I would be against ALL immigration, I believe, not just ILLEGAL. And I believe, if I were the Xenophobe, I would not say "change the laws and I'll accept them." All I kept repeating was that I was against Illegal Immigration and felt that those doing so were criminals (breaking a law = criminal). And notice I CAPITALIZED ILLEGALS so noone could say I was going after all immigrants (which are necessary to keep this country growing as we as a nation are having fewer children).

As for the cost of ILLEGALS there are several websites that discuss them and break them down.

This website is straight 1996 money and they try to show the cost in 2003 dollars:

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServe...suecentersf134

Here's one in favor of a guest worker program that talks about the environmental impact:

http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServe...suecentersf134

Here's a CNN report on the cost of ILLEGALS to America: (A very good report and informative):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY6t2ckpb5g

There are plenty more just do a Yahoo search on the cost of iilegal immigration and you'll see and can do your own research.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

flstf

I have no legal training so this act H.R.1645 was very hard for me to understand. From what I have read they are granting amnesty to illegals by giving them "Conditional Nonimmigrant" status. This is totally unfair to those who follow the rules (our law) and therefore I am against this section of the bill.

The section under "Encouraging aliens to depart voluntarily" may be a way to reduce the number of illegals without having to resort to legal proceedings. Perhaps giving illegals 60 days or so to leave voluntarily before being charged with a crime could be the way for most to depart. Also those who do so could possibly be allowed to get in line to immigrate legally without having their past illegal status held against them. Perhaps most deportation proceedings could be avoided this way.

pig

pan,

i don't want to get sidetracked too much on this, as will stated i have a lot of respect for you and i know you're a good guy, so to speak. but what about the posts concerning flying a blahblah flag and sitting on an american one? or not assimilating into our culture, but forcing us to accomodate them? i guess i just see america as a place where you don't have to assimilate. that's your right. you can speak in any language you want to. shit, make one up. that's your right as well. if you want to form an enclave and sit around and speak in piglatin and use clothing made of american flag, or toilet paper with american flags printed on it; while i may not like it or want to be part of it, you can do it. that's why america is so great. or at least my concept of america. that's the part where i see the xenophobia.

the part, strictly separated, about illegal immigrants, i see as just being overly simplified. yes, they're breaking the law. but i just can't bring myself to blame every single one of them, on that basis alone. you're right, they are definitely involved in illegal conduct, which is why i, back in post blabidyblahblah, brought up traffic violations. its not just breaking the law that's pissing you off, it some violation of the concept of "america" and laws that preserve "america." i mean, fuck look at your sig: imagine all the people living in peace. love is the answer. to extend love towards these people means seeing them as humans with real life situations. if they're caught, sure send 'em back if you want to. but that doesn't mean i have to be happy about it, or that i think that our current laws reflect reality.

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You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

pan6467

I have personally seen ILLEGALS do that (as well as legals). Is it all of them? No.

I do believe that you come into this country you need to assimilate with our society not expect us to assimilate to you. I am not saying you need to give up your beliefs and become "American".

I am simply statiing you do not come into my house and make demands from me. I will respect you and help you but if you come in making demands that I change my house to suit your needs.... my respect ends and my bitterness and anger will get the best of me.

And I will firmly admit I am prejudiced against the ILLEGALS and legals that come demanding we change our language, we cater to them and so on. But it is a vast majority ILLEGAL that do this (by vast majority I mean of the immigrants demanding we change to suit them... not the vast majority of ILLEGALS).

You can love someone, but if they slap you in the face (which I consider ILLEGAL immigration to be) and continue to slap you, you turn the cheek so many times and then you just turn your back on the person doing the slapping and show them the respect they are showing you... so that they may learn and realize they made their own bed.

If you have a child or sibling and they keep stealing your property and making demands on you, no matter how much you love them you eventually will say enough and do some tough love until they learn respect. Has nothing to do with sex, color, religion, ethnicity, etc....

I still have issues with how I am the bad guy for stating my beliefs and offering to change with the laws.... while others continue to talk about how they are humans but by condoning the ILLEGAL you condone the trucks with poor ventilation, the shit waged job with substandard working conditions, the rafts that turn over and people drowning.

By sheer association you say you approve of the above, by not demanding change, by not making it harder for them to come here until laws change, by allowing the employers to hire these workers.

I'm sorry, I see the end result of ILLEGAL immigration as the above and it doesn't seem very humane or loving to me.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pig

pan,

you're not a bad guy, but you may have some xenophobic tendencies on this issue. that's my opinion, i could be wrong. i've been wrong before, i'll be wrong again.

the thing is, i (and i think many others) would agree that the situation sucks for the people who fall prey to coyotes pulling people across the border. they're fuckers! plain and simple. fuck them. i don't think anyone on the "other side" of this thread would say that's ok. it is predictable, but not ok.

but that doesn't mean, in my opinion, you can say "fuck all illegals." they're not all like that. so why not just say fuck people who want others to cater to them constantly, and who are inflexible themselves? legal, illegal, american by birth, whatever. its basically the same as silver spoon syndrome.

as usual, i think we agree on the basics of this situation; we just disagree on the application thereof.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

Cynthetiq

I'm sorry but that only works for those who fall under the umbrella of the law. US Citizens fall under that, not illegal aliens. I cannot go to another country like Iraq, Iran, Germany, et. al. and expect to be civilly disobedient to change their laws. I'm sure that ALL nationalities would like to make getting into and working the the US safer.

Please provide something to show that evidence. I'll already state that correlation does not imply causation.

I guess you've not been to the Philippines, where those same things happen as well. Did you know that Filipinos come to the US legally sent home more than $10.7 billion in 2005, equal to about 12% of the gross domestic product. Has it changed the fact that there are millions of people still living in squalor and uneducated? Crime is still high, morbity rates are also quite high. There are other issues for their impact on society, but as you can see below they have organized their government to make it easier to emmigrate to any country. I don't see the Mexican government doing that at all. Yet a country thousands of miles away gears up and gets people going overseas legally.



so that fact that NAFTA created jobs for these impoverished groups doesn't mean anything. In your opinion they all need to come live in the United States.

Maybe that's the distinct difference of approach. You're willing to give them the opportunity of doubt first, whereas I'm of the opinion that they cheated from the beginning, now I'm giving them the opporutnity to prove themselves otherwise and convince me that they are different enough to warrant the compassion you are looking for.

I agree that there is something to being accommodating, but also there has to be a line where it stops. Should there always be mitigating circumstances that makes that situation okay? If there are, then enact laws that address that. Examples of this have been established like political and refugee asylum. But again, there are finite numbers of applicants.

I don't know how densely populated of an area you are, but I can tell you that if I didn't get to the cafeteria by 10AM there were no plain bagels left. Saying I woke up late, the bus was stuck in traffic, the baby was cranky, the dog needed to be walked, "the person in front of me ALWAYS gets a bagel why don't I get it this one time." None of that changes the fact that there just isn't enough to go around. It doesn't change the fact that there is a finite amount. It is just a fact of scarcity. There are finite amount of seats at the movie theater on a Friday or Saturday night, I may have to line up an hour before the show to make sure I have good seats. I may even have to purchase the ticket online an pay $1 extra so that I get it before it sells out. My point with this is that there is a finite amount of things. Scarecity is a reality. There are not enough goods and services for every human being on the planet. When the music stops not everyone will have a seat.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

Do you understand the concept of civil disobedience? You break the law peacefully in order to bring about change. That means no one who acts in civil disobedience is under he umbrella of the law. You're just splitting hairs because this is a law you seem to like. If it were a sit in to end segregation, I'm sure you'd be behind it.
Do you have any friends that work in the INS, FBI, or police forces on the boarder of Mexico? It's easy to sit at your computer and assume that correlation doesn't imply causation, but the fact of the matter is that any border cop, be they on the US or Mexico side, will corroborate my conclusions. Why don't you give them a call?
I don't see the al Quaeda and other illegal organizations that resort to terrorism operating in Mexico, I do in the Philippines. I see drug lords, but they get a shitload more money from the US than they do from Mexico.
What jobs? NAFTA destroyed hundreds of thousands of agricultural jobs in Mexico. The influx of imports from incorporated agricultural companies from the US ruined corn prices and clear subsidies to the tune of $10.1 billion.

Check this out for more info (pdf from oxfam).

Cynthetiq

[QUOTE=willravel]Do you understand the concept of civil disobedience? You break the law peacefully in order to bring about change. That means no one who acts in civil disobedience is under he umbrella of the law. You're just splitting hairs because this is a law you seem to like. If it were a sit in to end segregation, I'm sure you'd be behind it. [quote]
Funny because I don't think we'd sit on the same side of that either. See, I don't agree that Program housing on campuses for self segregation is a good thing. I don't think that colleges should have seperate graduation ceremonies in spanish, german, tagalog, chinese.

I'm sure you recall this happening in the early 90s:

"In 1990, the most recent year for which figures are available, 31,800 people succeeded in immigrating legally to the United States from mainland China, putting that country in sixth place as a source of legal immigration."

So what about the Chinese you are not speaking up for them. If you are saying that it's good for Mexicans, then it's good for Chinese, Somalians, Nigerians, Ethopians, et. al.

I'm sorry that there isn't enough for everyone, that is just a fact.

I'm asking you to back up your statement. You asking me to look it up or phone them makes it laughable. So far it's hearsay. So far that number still looks like you pulled it outta your ass.

I'm sorry WTF does terrorism have to do with this? I'm showing that governements in impoverished nation CAN asisst their people to get them to overseas jobs and helps them get them legally. You can't even say, "You know the MEXICAN government could learn from this."

You toss in terrorism???? Nowhere in ANTHING I've posted or linked to mentions terrorism. Yet the mention of Philippines and suddenly terrorism and al Qaeda come into play? If you searched history you'd find that Islam in the Philippines predates al Qaeda. You'd also should know that "Filipino Muslims form 5% of the country's population, while the rest of the general population are mostly Roman Catholic (84%) and Protestant (8%)." And the Filipino Muslims only occupy the areas closest to Indonesia/Malaysia which are Islamic nationstates. Manila where the Office of Overseas Workers is located, is Roman Catholic. But I guess, you are allowed to generalize and make blanket statements and others not.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

Name one post out of my thousands and thousands of posts on TFP that would lead you to believe that I'm pro-segregation. That's gotta be the biggest red herring/strawman in history. I am strongly anti-segregation and strongly pro integration, culturally, racially, genderly (not sure that's a word, but you know what I mean), and even based on sexual orientation.
I'm saying that no one benefits from the current system, and that it preys on immigrant families that have no choice but to come here illegally when all other options have been exhausted. That would include people from any country. My area and experience just happen to be saturated with Central Americans.
That's an issue of overpopulation, not immigration.
It was an estimate based on statistics I've read in newspapers for a while. The fact that google doesn't come up with the statistics doesn't make them untrue. The fact of the matter is that you're too lazy to prove m wrong. Tell me, do you see a flaw in my logic about the hypothetical situation where the border is shut down and crime rises? If not, then you're saying my stuff is laughable is laughable, and we're just wasting out time laughing.
In some ways, the Mexican government could learn from the Philippine government. Of course, you failed to mention how many Filipino people are in the US vs. Mexicans. I'll let you google that one yourself. If the Mexicans were only trying to get a fraction of what they're getting in now into the US, a comparable number to the Philippines, I doubt we'd have as much of a problem.
What blanket statements? True or false: the al Qaeda works and has worked in the Philippines.

True? Then there were no blanket statements. I was comparing the security concerns from each place, which is basically the entire reason for closed borders.

dc_dux

flstf...I undertand how the section that provides Conditional Nonimmigrant status can be described as defacto amnesty but I just dont agree that it is for the vast majority who have otherwise commited no crimes.

I would describe it as alternative sentencing and far more pratical, reasonable, fair and less expensive than rounding up and deporting millions.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Cynthetiq

No I'm saying we'd disagree on it in some fashion. I more than likely will no agree with your methodology for integration as you'll probably not like my version. Note that my examples are SELF SEGRGATION, Choices made by the individuals in the name of cultural pride or whatever.

According to my article, 31,800 Chinese people will beg to differ. That's 31,800 people who did not want to or were able to forgo the illegal boat container route.

According to the DHS, there are approximately 3 million people from 2004-2006 beg to differ that they benefitted from the current system.



So traffic on the 101 has not been impacted by illegal immigration? What illegal immigrants don't take up space and use resources both food, infrastructure, and government?

Again, I ask that you qualify it. Now you say that I'm too lazy to prove you wrong. Newpapers are for the most part available via google. Just admit you pulled the number out of your ass with no basis of fact.

Really? According to the Center for Immigration Studies Mexcian population is almost 4 times what the Filipino totals are. So that's fairer because of proximity that they can have more?



I see, you didn't say ANYTHING about the security of the borders, it was completely out of left field.

edit:

I did just found this article from the NY Times


Hmmm, seems to me that maybe Mexicans have lots more to learn that just a civics lesson of how to set up expatriated workers, but also that education is an important factor in increasing wages.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

flstf

I agree that it would be difficult to deport so many, that is why I think the section of the bill dealing with incentives to get them to leave voluntarily may have some merit.

The last time we granted amnesty there were 2 or 3 million illegals, this time there are 12 to 15 million. If the percentages hold true the next time there could be 50 million or more. Is there any number that we should allow before trying to control it?

About 10 percent of the Mexican population currently resides in the U.S. illegally and with the population growing rapidly and conditions in Mexico so bad, the incentive to come here will only increase. Maybe we can handle them all but I suspect there will be problems with so many.

alansmithee

Maybe he has a psychological compulsion (like many sex offenders who target underage individuals, which causes the high recidivism rate).

Possibly suffers from depression. Maybe had a companion animal suggested by a health care professional.

Yes, every opportunity coming from a broken home, with a mother who works 3 jobs, and an environment where showing any interest in books is enough to get you bullied or robbed (at the minimum).

The only reason the cases don't match is because you choose not to see them as matching. Because you sympathize with the Mexican, you see his problem as somehow greater, and justify his crime more. But many drug sellers come from environments not much different from what would be faced in a Mexican slum. And the first two cases could easily be caused by psychological problems that an individual would have no conscious control of.

And even with your hypothetical case of the Mexican, you don't explain why the individual who chooses to commit the crime and enter illegally should gain the benefits of his crime over someone who has respect for the country he wants to live and fights through the burdensome process of legal immigration.