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Old 04-04-2007, 01:32 PM   #121 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by pan6467
Thank you Jorgelito, you expressed very well what I guess I couldn't.



I still have a hard time understanding why I am a racist, Xenophobic KKK, white supremist, neo Nazistic, Facsist because I expect and demand people who want to immigrate to my country to do so legally. Those that choose to come illegally are criminals they broke a law... but I'm the bad guy, I'm the racist, Xenophobic KKK, white supremist, neo Nazistic, Facsist.

I have often wondered what if the next wave of terrorists comes from these illegals. What do these people who are so passionate about letting them in, embracing them and just all happy that they got here say then?

"Oh it was just a small group, the vast majority would never hurt anyone."

"You're still a racist, Xenophobic KKK, white supremist, neo Nazistic, Facsist and they acted out of your hatred. It was because they were so hated by you that they blew up a mall, passed anthrax, passed tuberculosis, brought in massive amounts of heroin, cocaine, etc. all laced with poisons."

"You don't understand, they are people too. They just want a better life... who cares that they broke a law the second they came here? They were treated poorly, discriminated against when they got here so they blew up a plane, a bridge, a hospital.... it's our fault because we didn't try to embrace them enough."

Like I said.... not saying any of that will happen.... but what if it does? Will I still be a racist, Xenophobic KKK, white supremist, neo Nazistic, Facsist for having the balls to stick up for my country and demand people come here legally?

Or will I be attacked and reminded that some terrorists come here legally, some were born here.... so, no big deal that we allowed in illegals that turned out to be terrorists.
Ok, honestly Pan, I don't know where to begin with this. At least I see where you're coming from here. Now I see why you just think of illegal immigrants as monsters who are here to kill you...Because you think all illegal immigrants are terrorists...Ok, seriously... Do you honestly think that if we start treating illegal immigrants badly, they would "blew up a mall[s], plane[s], a bridge[s], hospital[s], [pass] anthrax, [pass] tuberculosis, [bring] in massive amounts of heroin, cocaine, etc. all laced with poisons," here in the United States? Also, please disregard that those who committed 9/11 came here legally, since that would sully your argument. Terrorists are terrorists, and if they decide to come here and attack us, they will find a way...

But that's beside the point. This thread isn't about terrorism, and you know that. But now it's easy to see where your comments are coming from...you seem to rank ALL illegal immigrants the same as those misguided militant extremists from the middle east (and those are the minority). What you've essentially done is lump together everyone into one group, and given them all mean and scary Al-Qaeda faces.

Quote:
I also don't think our government or schools should be responsible for teaching classes in all the different languages. Maybe the government can finance some language transition programs or something but putting this burden on the schools seems a bit much.
Is that what they do? Offer every class in two languages? I honestly didn't know that.

I must've gone to a pretty sad school. All classes were in English (save for the foreign language classes), but ESL kids would be taken out of class by the resident ESL specialist (or something like that), who would then teach them specially with the smart kids from class. It's a pretty fucked-up system, but I though it was like that everywhere.

Also, about the limitation on the number of immigrants, I absolutely agree. This country, as great as it is, can't have open borders for all. But that doesn't mean you can look down your nose at people who do sneak in (and who you've never met) and consider them less than you.

Last edited by archetypal fool; 04-04-2007 at 02:04 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 04-04-2007, 02:12 PM   #122 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by archetypal fool
Also, about the limitation on the number of immigrants, I absolutely agree. This country, as great as it is, can't have open borders for all. But that doesn't mean you can look down your nose at people who do sneak in (and who you've never met) and consider them less than you.
yes, I can.

Just like I can look up the guy who lives down the street listed as a sex offender, or the guy who signed a document to live in our buildings and said he didn't or wouldn't own a dog then you see him in the elevator with his new jack russell, or even the guy who stands on the corner that deals drugs. Sure I can look at them and think of them as less with good reason.

Now if you said, that spanish guy over there, no I couldn't look down on that individual, but the moment he says,"Yeah I don't have papers to be here, I snuck across the border." or "I came here on a travel visa and overstayed."

I sure as hell can look down upon him.

Am I dehumanizing him? No, I am not tolerating that kind of behavior flouting rules and laws.
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Old 04-04-2007, 02:30 PM   #123 (permalink)
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I just want to say, on behalf of the torta i ate for lunch, that i am very thankful that some don't assimilate right away.


Also, on the subject of laws, i don't think that all laws are created equal, and i don't think every law is automatically just, or that all laws ought to be followed.

I just got an apartment in minneapolis' mexican enclave. I don't want to speculate as to the legal statuses of my neighbors, but they generally seem like nice folk who generally aren't prone to crime or much vice. There are plenty of businesses in my neighborhood where you would probably need to know spanish to interact effectively with the employees, but damn can you get some great food.
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Old 04-04-2007, 02:39 PM   #124 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
Now if you said, that spanish guy over there, no I couldn't look down on that individual, but the moment he says,"Yeah I don't have papers to be here, I snuck across the border." or "I came here on a travel visa and overstayed."

I sure as hell can look down upon him.

Am I dehumanizing him? No, I am not tolerating that kind of behavior flouting rules and laws.
Fine...look down on him as a perpetrator of a misdomeanor. Seems to me to be just more bitching without offering solutions. Do you proposed we round up 12+ million illegal immigrants here and kick them out?
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Old 04-04-2007, 02:40 PM   #125 (permalink)
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The sex offendor comited an act against a human...he raped someone. Furthormore, he chose to do so. He could've lived his life normally and been fine. What's his excuse? "You see, at the time, I was horney, and she was the only one around." ?

The guy living with his dog against the rules of the complex is doing so because he choose to. What's his excuse? "I need my dog to live with me, or else I'll be unhappy." ?

The guy who sells drugs on the corner is as low as they come. He's choosing to sell drugs. What's his excuse for doing it? "Oh, well, yeah, I have every opportunity in this country to go to college, get a job, and become a great man, but I'd rather sell just sell some rocks." ?

The Mexican you see walking down the street choose to come here. What's his excuse for doing so? "There are no jobs or food in my country to raise my family, so I came here, where there is food and the opportunity for my children to have a future."

I'm sorry, but these cases don't match up at all.

Oh, and I didn't mean to say that "You can't..." because we're all entitled to our opinions. That's just mines, since I wouldn't just consider someone less than me unless they do something which would truly call for it. Bad choice of words on my part...


Quote:
Originally Posted by filtherton
I just want to say, on behalf of the torta i ate for lunch, that i am very thankful that some don't assimilate right away.


Also, on the subject of laws, i don't think that all laws are created equal, and i don't think every law is automatically just, or that all laws ought to be followed.

I just got an apartment in minneapolis' mexican enclave. I don't want to speculate as to the legal statuses of my neighbors, but they generally seem like nice folk who generally aren't prone to crime or much vice. There are plenty of businesses in my neighborhood where you would probably need to know spanish to interact effectively with the employees, but damn can you get some great food.
Thanks for opening up a window in this thread. It was getting a little hot in here...

Last edited by archetypal fool; 04-04-2007 at 02:44 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 04-04-2007, 02:52 PM   #126 (permalink)
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I think that it's ironic that a lot of (maybe most?) illegal immigrants are self-selecting for the kind of perseverance, risk taking, and work ethic that we think of as being the American character. These are people that are willing to take on huge risks and work multiple low-wage jobs to give their kids an opportunity to succeed. You'd think we'd try to capitalize on that.

I agree that there is some difference between those who "follow the rules" and those who don't, but I don't necessarily think that it is what some are portraying here. Far more illegal immigrants are willing to worker harder for a little opportunity than are looking for a free ride in a rich country.
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Old 04-04-2007, 02:53 PM   #127 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
I sure as hell can look down upon him.

Am I dehumanizing him? No, I am not tolerating that kind of behavior flouting rules and laws.
You can look down on anyone you want, but that doesn't make it right. I can look down on you for not being in great shape like me. I can look down on you because you have long hair, even. Of course, that would make me a complete and total unbelievable asshole, and ironically, it would make a lot of people look down on me. What I'm wondering is how you can look down on people who are willing to fight with their last breath for what we get for free every day.
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Old 04-04-2007, 03:06 PM   #128 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dc_dux
Fine...look down on him as a perpetrator of a misdomeanor. Seems to me to be just more bitching without offering solutions. Do you proposed we round up 12+ million illegal immigrants here and kick them out?
Why not? It's what they'd do to me if I was an illegal immigrant in Iceland, Sweden, United Kingdom, Spain...I don't care if it's a misdemeanor, my parents came here via legal channels as did all of my extended family.

If you want to do like Regan and wave the magic wand and make all the 12 million here legals, by all means fine. Then prevent FURTHER people from just walking over. Because if you aren't going to do that then in a decade or so we'll have another 12 million illegals again.

I'll offer my solution, legalize all 12 Million people currently here. Create a moritorium of NO IMMIGRATION for 2-5 years to determine the actual REAL impact the 12 million have on social services and tax base. Allow further immigration based on economic and education stratas allowing ratios of all classes to a FINITE number. Once that number is hit for the year, NO MORE IMMIGRATION for that year. And again, be vigilant of people who overstay tourist/student visas and cross borders illegally. Raid known businesses that tend to hire illegal immigrants. Punish employers who hire illegal workers with hefty fines.
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Old 04-04-2007, 03:11 PM   #129 (permalink)
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Well, it's good to see we agree on some things.

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Why not? It's what they'd do to me if I was an illegal immigrant in Iceland, Sweden, United Kingdom, Spain...
Yeah, and you sure as hell wouldn't appreciate it. "Do onto others, etc, etc...".

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Old 04-04-2007, 03:19 PM   #130 (permalink)
 
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I dont want to gve blanket amnesty to all 12 million... I want most to have the opportunity for citizenship...with penalties, recognizing that they came here illegally ahead of others who played by the rules but that they have been contributing to the country and the economy in a postive way.
"Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes," said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary, using the agency's term for illegal immigration.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/bu...1dc383&ei=5090
And absolutely, tougher penalties and fines on employers as well as SERIOUS border security to prevent FURTHER people from just walking over.


Aside from that,I generally like our current policy of allowing about 1 million/yr - based on quotas from countries of origin and factors like family connections, meeting our employment needs, and/or need for personal asylum.

I just dont see what name-calling, misrepresentations and generalizations about the illegal immigration problem accomplishes.
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Old 04-04-2007, 04:21 PM   #131 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by willravel
You can look down on anyone you want, but that doesn't make it right. I can look down on you for not being in great shape like me. I can look down on you because you have long hair, even. Of course, that would make me a complete and total unbelievable asshole, and ironically, it would make a lot of people look down on me. What I'm wondering is how you can look down on people who are willing to fight with their last breath for what we get for free every day.
I get it for free???? No I do not get ANYTHING for free. My parents paid the price to come here legally, worked and paid taxes. When they got the opportunity they got naturalized and became US citizens. I paid taxes the moment I started working and I continue to pay taxes. I've not gotten ANYTHING for free since the day I've been born.

Again, if they came here LEGALLY and I was looking down upon them I'm in agreement with you. I don't understand how someone could do that. But to not have disdain for those who came illegally, sorry, not in my backyard, you can open your home to them.
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Old 04-04-2007, 04:50 PM   #132 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
I get it for free???? No I do not get ANYTHING for free. My parents paid the price to come here legally, worked and paid taxes. When they got the opportunity they got naturalized and became US citizens. I paid taxes the moment I started working and I continue to pay taxes. I've not gotten ANYTHING for free since the day I've been born.

Again, if they came here LEGALLY and I was looking down upon them I'm in agreement with you. I don't understand how someone could do that. But to not have disdain for those who came illegally, sorry, not in my backyard, you can open your home to them.
I think what dc_dux is getting at is that you have your liberty, your country to back you up, your home, and your family. Illegal immigrants usually only have a family, and they work damn hard to earn the other things on that list, just as you have.

And for the record, no, I do not get ANYTHING for free. My parents paid the price to come here illegally (including selling everything they owned...it's not as easy as some seem to think), after they applied legally and nothing was done. They work hard and pay taxes, as they have always done. When they got the opportunity they both got naturalized, and my mother became a US citizen. I paid taxes the moment I started working and I continue to pay taxes. I've not been given ANYTHING for free since the day I was born.

You see, we aren't that much different after all.
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Old 04-04-2007, 05:09 PM   #133 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by archetypal fool
The sex offendor comited an act against a human...he raped someone. Furthormore, he chose to do so. He could've lived his life normally and been fine. What's his excuse? "You see, at the time, I was horney, and she was the only one around." ?

The guy living with his dog against the rules of the complex is doing so because he choose to. What's his excuse? "I need my dog to live with me, or else I'll be unhappy." ?

The guy who sells drugs on the corner is as low as they come. He's choosing to sell drugs. What's his excuse for doing it? "Oh, well, yeah, I have every opportunity in this country to go to college, get a job, and become a great man, but I'd rather sell just sell some rocks." ?

The Mexican you see walking down the street choose to come here. What's his excuse for doing so? "There are no jobs or food in my country to raise my family, so I came here, where there is food and the opportunity for my children to have a future."

I'm sorry, but these cases don't match up at all.
If you were robbed twice, once by someone who was greedy and wanted the money without working, and then by someone who was starving and just wanted to feed their family, do you believe they should face different consequences for the same crime?
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Old 04-04-2007, 05:15 PM   #134 (permalink)
 
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I think what dc_dux is getting at is that you have your liberty, your country to back you up, your home, and your family. Illegal immigrants usually only have a family, and they work damn hard to earn the other things on that list, just as you have.
What I think is that we, as a nation, are a compassionate people, and the punishment should fit the crime.
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Old 04-04-2007, 05:27 PM   #135 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by archetypal fool
I think what dc_dux is getting at is that you have your liberty, your country to back you up, your home, and your family. Illegal immigrants usually only have a family, and they work damn hard to earn the other things on that list, just as you have.

And for the record, no, I do not get ANYTHING for free. My parents paid the price to come here illegally (including selling everything they owned...it's not as easy as some seem to think), after they applied legally and nothing was done. They work hard and pay taxes, as they have always done. When they got the opportunity they both got naturalized, and my mother became a US citizen. I paid taxes the moment I started working and I continue to pay taxes. I've not been given ANYTHING for free since the day I was born.

You see, we aren't that much different after all.
I'm sorry no we aren't that much different.

My parents didn't have family here. They came here ALONE. In fact they even met here and married after 30 days. They didn't have country to back them up, they didn't have family, or even a home. My father came here with some money in his pocket and brains in his head. My mother came here with some savings and much needed skills in the healthcare industry.

See you came here illegally and by luck of the draw the magic wand was waved and your crime was "wiped away." You are fortunate, equally as fortunate as me to have been born in the United States. That is just plain luck. Life is not fair, we don't get to pick where we are born or what family circumstances will surround us. No that's just luck of the draw.

No my parents did not come here illegally. Other family members did not do that. They waited YEARS to come here, being petitioned over and over by various family members until they were finally approved.

In my opinion if I were to rob someone and take that money and buy lottery tickets and win millions of dollars, ALL that winnings is tainted by the fact that it was born of something illegal. So again, you are fortunate that something happened to make you legitimate and eventually a citizen. That's wonderful, but for those still out there as illegals everything they do in my opinion is tainted by the false premise and pretense they started here with, committing the crime of immigrating here illegally.
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Old 04-04-2007, 06:11 PM   #136 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
I get it for free???? No I do not get ANYTHING for free. My parents paid the price to come here legally, worked and paid taxes. When they got the opportunity they got naturalized and became US citizens. I paid taxes the moment I started working and I continue to pay taxes. I've not gotten ANYTHING for free since the day I've been born.
Your parents and you are actually separate people, just fyi. When your dad has breakfast, you aren't having breakfast. When your parents legally immigrate, that's not you.

Sure you work, but you get the opportunity to work without too much difficulty. That's not the case in Mexico. Unemployment is unreal there. Education, something FREE to you, is either incredibly expensive or very low in quality in Mexico. I'll bet you eat at least 3 meals a day. You go to a 9-5 job that you earned by getting a decent education. Put 2 and 2 together here.
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Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
Again, if they came here LEGALLY and I was looking down upon them I'm in agreement with you. I don't understand how someone could do that. But to not have disdain for those who came illegally, sorry, not in my backyard, you can open your home to them.
I did. Now it's illegal for me to do that. I'll still invite them over for dinner, though. I'll also help them find the best jobs I can. I feel empathy for them, and I want to help. Even without pity or sympathy or empathy, they are a large part of the foundation of the economy in most of the southern and western states of our country, and turning on them would be stupid. If we were to suddenly remove them, do you know what would happen?
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Old 04-04-2007, 06:11 PM   #137 (permalink)
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Pardon me, djtestudo, but I honestly don't see what's the relevance of the situation you're giving me. Could you elaborate a little bit more?

On a side note, I didn't particularly like the analogy you proposed on the second page of this thread. The reason I didn't like it is that right from the get-go, the "bad guy" from the analogy is breaking into the resort, and stealing the food and comfort. So from the very begging, you're already shining a light of immorality onto those, and I don't think this is the case at all.

Maybe it's just that we see things differently...We come from different backgrounds, it's to be expected. Here's an analogy I've come up with which I think is more fitting:
_____________
You're in a small village, in which a man (lets call him Tom) is responsible for providing the people with cherries. Consequently, he owns may, many cherry trees. He can't possible pick them all. Because of this, whenever anyone comes around and asks for money, Tom instruct them to pick a few cherries, and then he will pay them money. Of course, he make more profit from a basket of cherries than do the people who pick them for him. All Tom asks is that people sign a sheet, so that he has a record of who has worked for him.

Tom's a fair employer, and word of him crosses from village to village. Every once in a while, a poor, illiterate straggler from one of the poorer villages, having heard of what Tom does, will come around and pick cherries without signing the sheet (remember he's illiterate), but always gives Tom the full baskets, and Tom pays him respectively.
____________

I know it's not perfect, but I feel it's more accurate than the hotel one. Yes, the straggler IS breaking the rules, but he isn't stealing anything (like illegal immigrants aren't necessarily stealing anything). And if the straggler uses the money to pay for his family to eat, where's the harm?
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Old 04-04-2007, 06:36 PM   #138 (permalink)
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Your parents and you are actually separate people, just fyi. When your dad has breakfast, you aren't having breakfast. When your parents legally immigrate, that's not you.
No, that's why I stated:
Quote:
You are fortunate, equally as fortunate as me to have been born in the United States. That is just plain luck. Life is not fair, we don't get to pick where we are born or what family circumstances will surround us. No that's just luck of the draw.
But again, I want to live in another country of my choosing. I cannot because of whatever immigration laws that make it neigh impossible for me to be there. I'm willing to pay the price for living abroad, in fact it's even crazy what I'd be paying in taxes since I'd have to pay the country residence tax PLUS United States federal taxes.

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Sure you work, but you get the opportunity to work without too much difficulty. That's not the case in Mexico. Unemployment is unreal there. Education, something FREE to you, is either incredibly expensive or very low in quality in Mexico. I'll bet you eat at least 3 meals a day. You go to a 9-5 job that you earned by getting a decent education. Put 2 and 2 together here.
Again, LUCK. Just like YOU, you are equally lucky to be here for the same reasons I am lucky to be here. You wish to spend your free time in your empathy space, great, you find satisfaction and fullfillment in it. Great. More power to you. I don't. To say you do something out of sympathy is just disrespectful to them, you are then implying that they need the help, need the handout. That my friend in my opinion is you looking down on them.

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I did. Now it's illegal for me to do that. I'll still invite them over for dinner, though. I'll also help them find the best jobs I can. I feel empathy for them, and I want to help. Even without pity or sympathy or empathy, they are a large part of the foundation of the economy in most of the southern and western states of our country, and turning on them would be stupid. If we were to suddenly remove them, do you know what would happen?
What would happen? Economies that should have not existed or be corrected because the illegals are no longer here? What doomsday thing will you predict? Suddenly my fruits and vegetables will cost 4 times as much? Great I'm willing to pay that price, it should have been climbing like that to begin with. Suddenly labor prices will cause manufactured goods to increase? Flowers will not be sold at intersections? Oranges not sold at freeway offramps? No all these things would still happen as they should. Free markets are what they are. Now are these people making living wages that battle cry of those who disdain Walmart and other large corporates? or does it not apply to them because you have sympathy and empathy and what they are getting here is better than whatever they'd get in their homeland. No, in my opinion it's all part and parcel of the same labor pool. As I see it the immigrants know how to sacrifice to get the things that they want, illegal or not, they are willing to trade something today for future tomorrow. My desire is that they come here via the legal channels.
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Old 04-04-2007, 06:46 PM   #139 (permalink)
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I'm sorry no we aren't that much different.

My parents didn't have family here. They came here ALONE. In fact they even met here and married after 30 days. They didn't have country to back them up, they didn't have family, or even a home. My father came here with some money in his pocket and brains in his head. My mother came here with some savings and much needed skills in the healthcare industry.
The post was directed at you, since obviously you have family, a great country, and a home you worked hard to earn. Equally obvious is that most immigrants will be in similar situation as those of your parents (i.e. no home, little money). I'll add, that neither did mine when they brought me here.

Quote:
No my parents did not come here illegally. Other family members did not do that. They waited YEARS to come here, being petitioned over and over by various family members until they were finally approved.
OK, and back to my original point: What if you don't have the years to wait it out? Here's what my father told me when I asked him why he decided to bring us over here:
_________
Cuba's a communist state. None of my dad's friends had "jobs". They would all steal from others and shops so they could sell the loot and make money. But not my father...No, he made shoes. He tells me his shoes were famous around the town and a little further. One day the government came and decided they didn't want him making shoes for money any more, so they took all his equipment, his stocks of leather, and everything he had invested in his business. What was he to do? At this point, he was supporting me (3 yrs old), my mother, and TWO daughters (1 and 12 yrs old). He filed the papers for immigration after his cache of money ran out, and so did my grand-aunt, who was here in the States at the time. Family and friends were able to help us with food and shelter while we waited for our vessel. MONTHS went by, we had no money, then the people who were helping us ran into problems of their own. We were literally living in a space not much bigger than 5 x 9 ft. FEET. For all six of us (my father showed me the space last time I visited Cuba. The opportunity presented itself where we were able to escape, and my father took it.

If we hadn't left, who knows what would've happened? After all, the only people who could help us at the time fell into their own hardship, so we were on our own, with not so much as a mound of dirt to sleep on. According to my father, concrete is not very comfortable...
__________

So what was the solution? Commit to a life of crime to make enough money for food (which is very illegal, and immoral to the core, and harms many innocent people)? Or illegally go to another country where you can give your family future?

Yeah, life isn't fair, but that doesn't just mean give up, and damn your family of 5 just because you fall under hard times. Sometimes it isn't as simple as "Just wait YEARS for your chance to come." That's the whole point I've been trying to make...

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Old 04-04-2007, 08:27 PM   #140 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by archetypal fool
Pardon me, djtestudo, but I honestly don't see what's the relevance of the situation you're giving me. Could you elaborate a little bit more?

On a side note, I didn't particularly like the analogy you proposed on the second page of this thread. The reason I didn't like it is that right from the get-go, the "bad guy" from the analogy is breaking into the resort, and stealing the food and comfort. So from the very begging, you're already shining a light of immorality onto those, and I don't think this is the case at all.

Maybe it's just that we see things differently...We come from different backgrounds, it's to be expected. Here's an analogy I've come up with which I think is more fitting:
_____________
You're in a small village, in which a man (lets call him Tom) is responsible for providing the people with cherries. Consequently, he owns may, many cherry trees. He can't possible pick them all. Because of this, whenever anyone comes around and asks for money, Tom instruct them to pick a few cherries, and then he will pay them money. Of course, he make more profit from a basket of cherries than do the people who pick them for him. All Tom asks is that people sign a sheet, so that he has a record of who has worked for him.

Tom's a fair employer, and word of him crosses from village to village. Every once in a while, a poor, illiterate straggler from one of the poorer villages, having heard of what Tom does, will come around and pick cherries without signing the sheet (remember he's illiterate), but always gives Tom the full baskets, and Tom pays him respectively.
____________

I know it's not perfect, but I feel it's more accurate than the hotel one. Yes, the straggler IS breaking the rules, but he isn't stealing anything (like illegal immigrants aren't necessarily stealing anything). And if the straggler uses the money to pay for his family to eat, where's the harm?
No, because the illegal immigrants ARE taking from America. They may not all be criminals (anyone who says that is uninformed), but they are costing our tax dollars, both through services and through security.

That is why the hotel analogy works; they want the same advantages everyone else get, but don't want to follow the same rules as everyone else to get them.

My second analogy goes towards your point about different situations calling for different views on punishment. However, whereas you used several unrelated situations, I gave you two identical crimes separated only by the reasoning behind them (lazy criminal vs. starving family).
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Old 04-04-2007, 08:50 PM   #141 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dc_dux
On bilingual education:

I agree its a burden on the educational system, but probably the most cost-effective way given that the primary beneficiaries are children.
As I understand it from the few immigrants I know, the kids pick up the language quickly without formal training. Its the adults who have the most trouble. When I visited some Czech communities with my wife the kids quite often function as interpreters for their parents and grandparents.
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Old 04-04-2007, 09:11 PM   #142 (permalink)
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You seem to have missed an interesting post above by dc_dux. Check out his source, I learned things I didn't know before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
I dont want to gve blanket amnesty to all 12 million... I want most to have the opportunity for citizenship...with penalties, recognizing that they came here illegally ahead of others who played by the rules but that they have been contributing to the country and the economy in a postive way.
"Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes," said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security's chief actuary, using the agency's term for illegal immigration.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/bu...1dc383&ei=5090
And absolutely, tougher penalties and fines on employers as well as SERIOUS border security to prevent FURTHER people from just walking over.


Aside from that,I generally like our current policy of allowing about 1 million/yr - based on quotas from countries of origin and factors like family connections, meeting our employment needs, and/or need for personal asylum.

I just don't see what name-calling, misrepresentations and generalizations about the illegal immigration problem accomplishes.
If you want to continue to hold onto the notion that illegal immigrants cost tax dollars, realize that they are being deducted from pay checks, just like yours and mines. So your hotel analogy implies that people come here and just take everything (parasites), when in fact they're contributing back. Where as in my analogy, work is done and there's an exchange between labor and money.

And as for your most recent analogy, I'll emphasize again that sneaking into this country IS ILLEGAL. Anyone caught doing is is braking the law. I'm not arguing for/against punishment for the act. Nor am I implying that it's any more legal for one situation than it is for another. But I'm not going to sit around and let some people continue regarding illegal immigrants as parasites, or a shit of a people, or selfish entities withing the country, or people who want to change this country to give them better benefits, or any thing like that, because simply, I don't believe this is the case.

So to explicitly answer your question, both should be punished equally.

I can see where you can use my previous "morality" argument for this case, since using the "morality" argument, you'd expect me to say that the criminal doing it to save his starving family is somewhat justified. This isn't the case though. Mugging someone is directly affecting that person, and hurting that person. My previous "morality" argument only holds water if the person is acting morally (as is usually the case with those who choose to come here illegally).

Therefor, if I was mugged by the latter mugger from you analogy, it isn't justified. It's directly stealing, which isn't the case with illegal immigration.

Quote:
As I understand it from the few immigrants I know, the kids pick up the language quickly without formal training. Its the adults who have the most trouble. When I visited some Czech communities with my wife the kids quite often function as interpreters for their parents and grandparents.
That's correct. According to my family, I learned English in less than a year (I came when I was 3 yrs old). I've been the family translator ever since. Most of my family already knows English, but they rather have me take care of their dirty work since I'm so much more comfortable with the language than they are.

Children are much more capable of learning languages. They have a propensity for it, in fact. In Matt Ridley's book "Genome", he sites a particularly interesting case where children, when brought up in a situation where many different languages are used frequently by people who don't speak them all (imagine an island with 1000 people, 20% English, 20% Spanish, 20% Arabic, 20% Asian, and 20% African, all interacting together daily...The case was similar), synthesized a more efficient language, composed of all the languages. Each generation created a better and better language. It's truly amazing.

For the same reason, it's harder for adults to learn things like languages. The proverbial roots have already been anchored.

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Old 04-05-2007, 05:15 AM   #143 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archetypal fool
You seem to have missed an interesting post above by dc_dux. Check out his source, I learned things I didn't know before.

If you want to continue to hold onto the notion that illegal immigrants cost tax dollars, realize that they are being deducted from pay checks, just like yours and mines. So your hotel analogy implies that people come here and just take everything (parasites), when in fact they're contributing back. Where as in my analogy, work is done and there's an exchange between labor and money.

And as for your most recent analogy, I'll emphasize again that sneaking into this country IS ILLEGAL. Anyone caught doing is is braking the law. I'm not arguing for/against punishment for the act. Nor am I implying that it's any more legal for one situation than it is for another. But I'm not going to sit around and let some people continue regarding illegal immigrants as parasites, or a shit of a people, or selfish entities withing the country, or people who want to change this country to give them better benefits, or any thing like that, because simply, I don't believe this is the case.

So to explicitly answer your question, both should be punished equally.

I can see where you can use my previous "morality" argument for this case, since using the "morality" argument, you'd expect me to say that the criminal doing it to save his starving family is somewhat justified. This isn't the case though. Mugging someone is directly affecting that person, and hurting that person. My previous "morality" argument only holds water if the person is acting morally (as is usually the case with those who choose to come here illegally).

Therefor, if I was mugged by the latter mugger from you analogy, it isn't justified. It's directly stealing, which isn't the case with illegal immigration.



That's correct. According to my family, I learned English in less than a year (I came when I was 3 yrs old). I've been the family translator ever since. Most of my family already knows English, but they rather have me take care of their dirty work since I'm so much more comfortable with the language than they are.

Children are much more capable of learning languages. They have a propensity for it, in fact. In Matt Ridley's book "Genome", he sites a particularly interesting case where children, when brought up in a situation where many different languages are used frequently by people who don't speak them all (imagine an island with 1000 people, 20% English, 20% Spanish, 20% Arabic, 20% Asian, and 20% African, all interacting together daily...The case was similar), synthesized a more efficient language, composed of all the languages. Each generation created a better and better language. It's truly amazing.

For the same reason, it's harder for adults to learn things like languages. The proverbial roots have already been anchored.
re: those that are paying taxes is patently FALSE for a good portion of those illegal immigrants. Those that are paying taxes are using STOLEN SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS, committing yet ANOTHER CRIME of identity theft. Yes, they have taxes taken out of the wages being paid and leaving someone else holding the bag. I have known a couple people who were left having to pay ADDITIONAL taxes on monies because of someone else using their social security number for employment. The example below is just one case of many.

Furthermore, there are many day laborers and other workers who get paid CASH, who won't go out and get any documentation, they too do not pay payroll taxes, while they may pay sales tax on good purchased, they don't pay property taxes which goes to pay for education in most districts.

Quote:
Illegal Worker, Troubled Citizen and Stolen Name
LINK
JULIA PRESTON

MARSHALLTOWN, Iowa — The two women named Violeta Blanco have never met. But for a long time they shared not only a name, but the same birth date and the same Social Security number.

One is an illegal immigrant from Mexico who went to work slicing pork in a meat-packing plant here after her husband left her with three children. The other is a single American mother in California who has never held a job, struggles with drug addiction and is fighting to keep the state from taking her children.

With little in common but their shared identity, the two women are unwittingly linked by an illicit trade that is the focus of a new federal crackdown on illegal immigration. Detained in a recent raid on the Iowa plant, the Mexican worker admitted that she had used the California woman’s identity to get her job. Now she is in jail on felony charges of identity theft, her trial set to begin in Des Moines on Monday.

Immigration raids at six Swift & Company meat-packing plants in six states in December, as well as more recent sweeps in Michigan, Florida and Arizona, have exposed an expanding front in the underground business that caters to illegal immigrants looking for work, officials say.

As the authorities have aggressively prosecuted employers for hiring undocumented workers, companies are examining applicants more carefully, and fake documents no longer pass inspection as easily as they did. Illegal immigrants have turned increasingly to bona fide documents, stolen or bought by traffickers from actual Americans.

With scrutiny tightening, illegal immigrants “invest more effort and money into getting better documents,” said Julie L. Myers, the top official at Immigration and Customs Enforcement. “More and more, that includes taking on the identities of U.S. citizens and legal immigrants.”

The case of Violeta Blanco, 31, of Bakersfield, Calif., and the woman in Iowa who used her name, Eloisa Nuñez Galeana, 32, provides a rare view of the new identity trade through hard lives on both ends.

On one side is an immigrant who is eager to work and who says she never thought she could be stealing from a real person; on the other is an American down on her luck who says she does not know how her personal information came to be exchanged on the black market.
Continued   click to show 


Another article re: stolen SSI numbers used for employment

Quote:
Some ID Theft Is Not for Profit, But to Get a Job; STOLEN LIVES: The Crucial Number

LINK
Camber Lybbert thought it was a mistake when her bank said her daughter's Social Security number was on the bank's files for two credit cards and two auto loans, with an outstanding balance of more than $25,000. Her daughter is 3 years old.

For Lybbert and her husband, Tyson, the call began a five-month scramble trying to clear up their daughter's credit record. As it turned out, an illegal immigrant named Jose Tinoco had stolen their daughter's Social Security number, not in pursuit of a financial crime but to get a job.

"From what I've picked up, he wasn't using it maliciously," Camber Lybbert said. "He was using it to have a job, to get a car, provide for his family. My husband's like, 'Don't you feel bad, you've ruined this guy's life?' But at the same time, he's ruined the innocence of her Social Security number because when she goes to apply for loans, she's going to have this history."

Though most people think of identity theft as a financial crime, one of the most common forms involves illegal immigrants using fraudulent Social Security numbers to conduct their daily lives. With tacit acceptance from some employers and poor coordination among government agencies, the practice provides the backbone of some low-wage businesses and a boon to the Social Security trust fund. During the 1990s, such mismatches accounted for about $20 billion in Social Security taxes paid.

"It's clear that it is a different intent or purpose than trying to get someone's MasterCard and charge it up, knowing they're going to get the bill," said Richard Hamp, an assistant attorney general in Utah. "But it has some similarities. It goes on the other person's credit record. Illegals are filing for bankruptcy using someone else's number. I had one 78-year-old with three defaults on houses she never owned."

The Federal Trade Commission estimates that 10 million Americans have their identities stolen each year.

Illegal immigrants make up nearly one of every 20 workers in America, according to estimates by the Pew Hispanic Center, and most are working under fraudulent Social Security numbers, which can be bought in any immigrant community or in Mexico.

In Caldwell, Idaho, a woman named Maria is just such a worker.

Maria, 51, came from Mexico City illegally six years ago and bought a counterfeit green card and Social Security card through a friend for $180. She earns $6.50 an hour, and like most of the seven million working illegal immigrants in the United States, she pays income tax and Social Security tax. She agreed to be interviewed on the condition that her last name not be used.

''We know we'll never get it back,'' Maria said of the Social Security payments. ''It's unfortunate, but it's a given.''

Like most victims of identity theft, the Lybberts did not lose any money in the long run. But Camber Lybbert estimated that for four or five months she spent 30 hours or more a week making telephone calls, feeling passed from one agency or voice-mail system to another: the Social Security Administration; the attorney general; the three credit bureaus that issue credit ratings; and police departments in two cities.

''Everyone I talked to handed me off to someone else, saying that's not our department, call this number,'' she said. ''I was being led in a circle.''

The Social Security Administration each year receives 8 million to 9 million earnings reports from the Internal Revenue Service filed under names that do not match the Social Security numbers. Some are from workers whose employers botched their personnel forms or women who recently changed their names after marriage. Others are from people using a Social Security number that is not their own.

"It's basically a subsidy from migrant workers to the aggregate of American taxpayers," said Douglas S. Massey, a professor of sociology at Princeton who studies Mexican migration.

Though no one knows how many of these mismatches are illegal immigrants, a Government Accountability Office study found that employers with the most mismatches were concentrated in industries that hire a lot of illegal immigrants, including agriculture, construction and food services.

"Right now, employers are not motivated to care if their workers give them false Social Security numbers," said Barbara Bovbjerg, the office's director of education, workforce and income security issues.

The Social Security Administration is legally barred from sharing information with immigration or law enforcement agencies or from telling the rightful owner of a Social Security number that someone else is working under their number, said Mark Hinkle, a spokesman.

The rightful owner of a stolen number does not get the benefits accrued under its false use.

Ms. Bovbjerg's office and others have called for better cooperation among the Social Security Administration, the Internal Revenue Service and the Department of Homeland Security to prosecute workers who use false Social Security numbers and the companies that hire them.


"We've had this ridiculous situation where, theoretically, this information could be shared and we could identify these people and repair the situation," said Marti Dinerstein, a fellow at the Center for Immigration Studies, a nonprofit organization that supports tighter restrictions on immigration. "Falsely using a Social Security number is a felony. ... The IRS says privacy laws prevent them from sharing information. So we know who the guilty employers are. The IRS knows who the guilty employees are. And nothing's being done about it."

In 2000, using Social Security Administration data, the Utah attorney general's office found that there were 132,000 people in the state whose Social Security numbers were being used by other people, far more than the state could prosecute.

This use caused problems even when the person using the number led a financially responsible life, said Hamp, the assistant attorney general.

"I've had families denied public assistance for their children or disability payments because records show somebody is working in their Social Security number," he said.

Scott Smith of Ogden, Utah, discovered that someone was using his daughter Bailey's Social Security number when he applied for public health insurance for her.

Like Lybbert, he has mixed feelings about what happened next.

"All that was happening was that the illegal alien who had gotten the card had gotten a job at a Sizzler steakhouse in Provo and was paying her bills and doing a good job," he said. "My opinion was, hey, we've got someone hard-working who's come from Mexico, who just wants to get a leg up -- give her Bailey's Social Security number and issue us a new one. ...

"But they arrested her. I actually feel bad about her being deported."

In immigrant communities, most counterfeiters invent Social Security numbers at random, choosing only the first three digits to signal the card's state of origin, prosecutors and investigators say.

When the numbers belong to children, the problems can start when they turn 18, said Jay Foley, a founder and director of the Identity Theft Resource Center in San Diego, a nonprofit organization that helps victims and proposes legislation. ''Now the child goes for student loans or jobs, and the companies say, 'You've got a problem of bad credit. We aren't going to touch you.' ''

Most affected, Mr. Foley said, are foster children who are suddenly independent at 18.
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Old 04-05-2007, 06:10 AM   #144 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
re: those that are paying taxes is patently FALSE for a good portion of those illegal immigrants. Those that are paying taxes are using STOLEN SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS, committing yet ANOTHER CRIME of identity
The fact that MANY millions of illegal immigrants are paying taxes is patently TRUE....and most are using fictious SS numbers, not stolen numbers.

The SS "earning suspense file" is now at nearly $200 billion.

From testimony of the SS actuary:
Quote:
Since the beginning of the program in 1937 and through Tax Year (TY) 2003, the most recent year for which data is available, the suspense file has grown and now contains about 255 million W-2s. While the suspense file represents an accounting of unassociated wage items, the taxes on these wages have been paid into the trust funds. In TY 2003, $7.2 billion in payroll taxes were credited to the Trust Funds based on wage items placed in the suspense file. This represented approximately 1.3 percent of total payroll taxes credited to the Trust Funds....

As of October, 2005, approximately 8.8 million W-2s (3.5 percent of the total) representing $57.8 billion in wages remained in the suspense file for TY 2003.

It is important to note that wages that remain in the ESF include wages paid to individuals who were not and may not be currently authorized to work in the U.S. Thus, these individuals have actually paid into the Social Security Trust Fund and are unable to receive benefits.

http://www.ssa.gov/legislation/testimony_072506.html
There is no hard evidence, but the SS Admin estimates that MANY of these "unidentified" SS wage earners who end up in the suspense file are "undocumented aliens".



I dont condone the act of using fake (not stolen) SS #s, and I blame the employer (who turns a blind eye) as much as the employee...but there is NO denying that illegal aliens contribute $billions to Social Security and Medicare.
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Old 04-05-2007, 06:19 AM   #145 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
The fact that a many millions of illegal immigrants are paying taxes is patently TRUE....and most are using fictious SS numbers, not stolen numbers.

The SS "earning suspense file" is now at nearly $200 billion.

From testimony of the SS actuary:

There is no hard evidence, but the SS Admin estimates that MANY of these "unidentified" SS wage earners who end up in the suspense file are "undocumented aliens".



That doesnt excuse the act of using fake (not stolen) SS #s, but there is NO denying that illegal aliens contribute $billions to the Social Security and Medicate.
I'm sorry but I don't disagree that those using FAKE or STOLEN documents as not paying taxes and contributing to the base pot. They are. The part I am stating as there are a GOOD NUMBER of illegal workers who are NOT paying taxes.

Quote:
Furthermore, there are many day laborers and other workers who get paid CASH, who won't go out and get any documentation, they too do not pay payroll taxes, while they may pay sales tax on good purchased, they don't pay property taxes which goes to pay for education in most districts.
Ask the undocumented day laborer how much in taxes he paid last week, he was paid in cash. Ask the house cleaner or nanny how much they paid in taxes last time they got paid. Again, they got paid in cash. If they were then many politicians who got outed as using undocmented workers who didn't pay taxes were unfairly and unjustly lynched by the media.
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Old 04-05-2007, 06:33 AM   #146 (permalink)
 
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We agree that the government must come harder on employers, even those politicians who knowingly hire illegals as nannys and maids.

The enforcement record has been dismal.

(We might also want to look into all those law-abiding citizens who work as wait staff, street vendors, etc. about reporting their real income.)
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Old 04-05-2007, 08:12 AM   #147 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
Again, LUCK. Just like YOU, you are equally lucky to be here for the same reasons I am lucky to be here. You wish to spend your free time in your empathy space, great, you find satisfaction and fullfillment in it. Great. More power to you. I don't. To say you do something out of sympathy is just disrespectful to them, you are then implying that they need the help, need the handout. That my friend in my opinion is you looking down on them.
Are police looking down on people they respect? Is Superman looking down on Metropolis? Is the Red Cross looking down on the world?
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Old 04-05-2007, 08:25 AM   #148 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by willravel
Are police looking down on people they respect? Is Superman looking down on Metropolis? Is the Red Cross looking down on the world?
do you mean by the police and people they respect? Police are PAID to PROTECT and SERVE the community. They aren't doing it out of volunteerism.

Superman, um, he is a comic book character, he is FICTIONAL.

Red Cross as an non profit organization has people who come to them for assistance.

Red Cross Charter:

Quote:
The purposes of the corporation are:
(1) to provide volunteer aid in time of war to the sick and wounded of the
armed forces, in accordance with the spirit and conditions of:
(A) the conference of Geneva of October, 1863;
(B) the treaties of the Red Cross, or the treaties of Geneva, of
August 22, 1864, July 27, 1929, and August 12, 1949, to which the United
States of America has given its adhesion; and
(C) any other treaty, convention, or protocol similar in purpose to
which the United States of America has given or may give its adhesion;
(2) in carrying out the purposes described in clause (1) of this section, to
perform all the duties devolved on a national society by each nation that has
acceded to any of those treaties, conventions, or protocols;
(3) to act in matters of voluntary relief and in accordance with the military
authorities as a medium of communication between the people of the United
States and the armed forces of the United States and to act in those matters
between similar national societies of governments of other countries through the
International Committee of the Red Cross and the Government, the people, and
the armed forces of the United States; and
(4) to carry out a system of national and international relief in time of
peace, and apply that system in mitigating the suffering caused by pestilence,
famine, fire, floods, and other great national calamities, and to devise and carry
out measures for preventing those calamities.
and Will, I'm still waiting for because I don't know what would happen or at least what your opinion of what would happen...

Quote:
they are a large part of the foundation of the economy in most of the southern and western states of our country, and turning on them would be stupid. If we were to suddenly remove them, do you know what would happen?
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Old 04-05-2007, 09:09 AM   #149 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
do you mean by the police and people they respect? Police are PAID to PROTECT and SERVE the community. They aren't doing it out of volunteerism.
So being paid means they don't look down on people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
Superman, um, he is a comic book character, he is FICTIONAL.
If I didn't have people like you to explain things like this to me, I'd probably drown in my cereal every morning. Superman is a mythical figure that represents some part of humanity like many fictional characters. Part of his character is this altruistic streak brought about by his sense of responsibility. He has power, so he uses it to help people. I hope you can understand that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
Red Cross as an non profit organization has people who come to them for assistance.
Have you ever had a homeless person ask you for money? I see that as the same thing. They are asking for help from people or organizations of greater means. Some people, like me, actually give a shit about these people and give them money not out of pity but out of a sense of responsibility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
and Will, I'm still waiting for because I don't know what would happen or at least what your opinion of what would happen...
You're still waiting for...what? I try to read my posts after I write them in case they don't make sense.


What do I think would happen if the US tried to get all illegals out immediately? Mass riots, infrastructure (shipping, agriculture, etc.) would start to collapse in many places in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona, Texas, Oklahoma, and elsewhere, GSP (gross state product) would drop off considerably in the aforementioned states, this would quickly spread as all the lower 48 are in a symbiotic economic relationship. Because things are so instable now, this could trigger a depression.
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Old 04-05-2007, 09:24 AM   #150 (permalink)
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Sorry will, I walk past about 15 homeless people every day. I'm not going to give them anything. NYC has plenty of programs to assist them. The area I live in has plenty of homeless.

Getting badgered 15 times in the morning and 15 times at night just so that I can go to work and come home is not very exciting nor does it inspire me to assist them.

Yep, you go to work in your car protected by metal and glass listening to your morning radio show or your MP3s. I'm sorry 16 years of being hit up for money each and every place I go to, sorry. No. No sympathy, no empathy, I've hung out with homeless and street urchins, you know as well as I do that people are there mostly because they want to.

When I was in SF in January I was surprised how many homeless there were in Union Square, but then again, people pay them to stay there.

this article in 1999 highlights it well:

Quote:
WHETHER or not Paris Drake is guilty of flinging a brick at a woman on 42nd Street, his sudden notoriety is not doing a lot for New York's image. The stories of his life raise an obvious question: why was a crack addict with a history of violence and a long rap sheet prowling the streets?

Some blame New York courts for being too lenient; some fault the city's social programs. But the most direct explanation has nothing to do with local policies. Mr. Drake was using drugs and hanging out on 42nd Street because out-of-towners were paying him to do it.

He hustled around Times Square and the Port Authority bus terminal because the area had so many tourists and suburbanites (and a few gullible locals) willing to respond to his begging. Like other panhandlers, he relied on the kindness of strangers who thought they were helping someone with nowhere else to turn.

''Drug addicts come from out of state to panhandle in Times Square,'' said James McNamara, who was once an addict himself living in a cardboard box. ''The tourists think they're doing good, but they're just making it easier for them to get high, and that makes our job tougher.''

Mr. McNamara was busy walking along Eighth Avenue near 42nd Street offering help to street people who did not want it. He was one of many such missionaries working for public and private agencies in Midtown, which probably has more ''outreach'' workers per square mile than any other place on earth.

He and his co-worker, Wendell Parks, passed a panhandler they had known for years. ''His money's going for heroin,'' Mr. Parks said. ''I guarantee you that 90 percent of the money people give to panhandlers goes to drugs and alcohol. It's frustrating. We'll be talking to someone for 15 minutes, finally getting somewhere, and then a tourist will drop him a ten or a twenty, and we're finished.''

Mr. McNamara and Mr. Parks work for the Times Square Consortium for the Homeless, which has meticulously tried to help street people -- and meticulously documented how difficult that can be. Financed by $800,000 a year in federal and state grants, the consortium of private groups has been running a ''respite center'' at St. Luke's Lutheran Church on West 46th Street near Eighth Avenue.

Over the last four years, its outreach teams have invited nearly 1,000 people to the center, which offers showers, meals, clothes and beds for the night. After repeated coaxing -- on average, each person was contacted 10 times -- about 500 stopped in.

More than 80 percent of them reported abusing drugs or alcohol; a third were judged mentally ill. The center tried to guide them through treatment programs and find them permanent housing. The success rate was above average because the eight-person staff -- which included a psychiatrist, two social workers and a specialist in drug and alcohol abuse -- was able to lavish attention on individual cases.

BUT even with all that help, most people dropped out along the way. Fewer than 100 made it into halfway houses or permanent homes. Of the many reasons for the others' failure, one was undoubtedly the easy money available back on the streets.

''What can I do when a guy tells me he's making $300 a day panhandling?'' Mr. McNamara said as he approached Times Square and spotted a man on the corner they had been trying for years to entice to the center. They invited him again, explaining that they had a coat and shoes waiting, but he waved them off. ''I remember another gentleman,'' Mr. McNamara said, ''that I managed to get in for a shower and a meal. We were working on getting him into detox, but he said, 'No, I'm going back on the street to smoke crack.' Well, that was his right. The next week I saw him on the subway with a cup pretending to be crippled. He said he needed money for an operation to straighten his leg.''

A hard-core libertarian might argue that there's nothing wrong with giving a panhandler money, even when it will be used for drugs. Aren't you and the panhandler both consenting adults? You might compare drug use with another taboo activity, prostitution, and say that adults should be free to spend their money and treat their bodies as they wish.

But most people who patronize prostitutes do not pretend they're doing it for the prostitute's benefit. Most out-of-towners who give to panhandlers probably see themselves as altruists, though ultimately they may be the only beneficiaries from the transaction. They get to go home warmed by the glow of their generosity. The crackhead left behind is not their problem.
People look down upon other people paid or unpaid. It doesn't matter. Does the rich altruistic person do more good who writes a check for $10,000 to a charity or is it the person serving soup at the kitchen?

I don't believe that rounding up all the illegals would cause such catostrophic events. It's not like it would happen overnight, it would happen over time.

Besides, if you look at my previous posts, I have not advocated rounding them up and getting rid of them. I'm advocating STOPPING future millions from coming in.
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Last edited by Cynthetiq; 04-05-2007 at 09:27 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 04-05-2007, 09:58 AM   #151 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
Yep, you go to work in your car protected by metal and glass listening to your morning radio show or your MP3s. I'm sorry 16 years of being hit up for money each and every place I go to, sorry. No. No sympathy, no empathy, I've hung out with homeless and street urchins, you know as well as I do that people are there mostly because they want to.
Yes, when they're young and their teacher asks them what they want to be when they grow up, they scratch their little heads and proudly proclaim: "I want to be a vagrant! I want to sleep in a cardboard box and eat trash and desperately beg people for help! I want to live in front of a McDonald's and crap behind a McDonald's because I don't have the means for basic human needs like food and shelter! I hope someday people will look down on me as less than human!!" Then they go eat clay.

That you could, with a straight face, say that homeless people WANT to be homeless means that not only do you not know the first thing about the homeless, but your ability to read people is pretty messed up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
People look down upon other people paid or unpaid. It doesn't matter. Does the rich altruistic person do more good who writes a check for $10,000 to a charity or is it the person serving soup at the kitchen?
I look down on people, too. I look down on people who don't put any work into figuring things out and sit their on their soap box assuming they know everything. You're satisfied to ignore the plight of the homeless, but you sure are ready and waiting to judge them, aren't you? Well, I now judge you. I say that you're wrong for ignoring the homeless, but that's forgivable because not everyone cares about suffering. I say that you're very, very wrong for making the assumption that they want to be homeless (wtf?!), and that's not forgivable. Ban me if you want, but I think that misrepresenting the less fortunate like that is pretty horrible of you.
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Old 04-05-2007, 10:12 AM   #152 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
Yes, when they're young and their teacher asks them what they want to be when they grow up, they scratch their little heads and proudly proclaim: "I want to be a vagrant! I want to sleep in a cardboard box and eat trash and desperately beg people for help! I want to live in front of a McDonald's and crap behind a McDonald's because I don't have the means for basic human needs like food and shelter! I hope someday people will look down on me as less than human!!" Then they go eat clay.

That you could, with a straight face, say that homeless people WANT to be homeless means that not only do you not know the first thing about the homeless, but your ability to read people is pretty messed up.

I look down on people, too. I look down on people who don't put any work into figuring things out and sit their on their soap box assuming they know everything. You're satisfied to ignore the plight of the homeless, but you sure are ready and waiting to judge them, aren't you? Well, I now judge you. I say that you're wrong for ignoring the homeless, but that's forgivable because not everyone cares about suffering. I say that you're very, very wrong for making the assumption that they want to be homeless (wtf?!), and that's not forgivable. Ban me if you want, but I think that misrepresenting the less fortunate like that is pretty horrible of you.
I ignore the plight of the homeless? Because I don't give change to the guy on the sidewalk????? WTF is that?

If I give to organizations and assist my local charities like Henry Street Settlement and I don't give to the local fuckard who'd rather stay on the streets because of drug addition and alcholism makes me a bad person? Because that's what your implication is.

I don't assume I know anything, in fact, I'm the first to admit I know nothing. I've not made any assumptions in this thread but speak from my FIRST HAND experience however that comes.

I'm sorry my friend, it is YOU who is on a soap box. To tie this back into the OP, it's MY parents who immigrated here. It is me who had to sleep on the floor because I had relatives who were trying to move to the US legally. It is ME who has disdain for those people who care not to follow the immigration laws.

It is YOU who speaks on a soap box preaching you know how it is because you housed and fed them once in your past. YOU preaching how bad it is in Mexico with high unemployment and poor educational system. YOU preaching how altruistic you are.

No my friend, I think you need to see where your feet are standing, it seems to look like a soap box to me.
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Old 04-05-2007, 10:30 AM   #153 (permalink)
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There's only one solution and it is not amnesty to the ILLEGALS, again they committed a crime and they are slapping everyone who sacrificed, worked and did what they had to to become citizens.

The solution is for enough people to vote for politicians that will change the immigration laws.

Until then, I expect and want a government that will take this seriously, fine those that hire them, deport those they catch and tighten our borders so that it makes it harder to come in ILLEGALLY.

We pay BILLIONS of our hard earned tax dollars going to prop up hospitals so that they can help ILLEGALS meanwhile if you are a citizen good luck getting so much as a band aid from a hospital without insurance or in a deathly situation.

And what of the people who jam into trucks with very little air circulation? That's ok?

That's what you condone when you allow ILLEGAL immigration.

But I'm the bad guy, I'm the uninformed, I'm the one that is insensitive, the one ya all like to want to attack.... I think ya all are a bunch of fucking hypocrites. You sit there and shake your head and say "where's you humanity, you self righteous, racist, neo nazistic, KKK, white supremicist xenophobe......

I guess you're right, I am all of the above, but at least I have maintained a solid stance the whole way through instead of backtracking and at first saying... "Illegals are doing what they have to... but I don't condone their behavior.... but I accept them... but what they did is wrong.... but they had no choice...."

I guess instead of helping them better their own countries and working on spreading freedom to other countries.... we'd rather just bring everyone here.

But they are poor and have no power and voices in their lands.... Bullshit, throughout the history of man it's been the poor, the weak and the underdogs that have had enough that raise up and change their governments. We are not giving them help, we are just absorbing problems and divisiveness instead of working on a lasting solution.


But keep letting ILLEGALS pile up into poorly circulated trucks and die of suffocation, load up on rafts and drown when it overturns... and keep believing that I'm the bad guy and you are the true humanitarian because you see these people as people. Good luck with that.
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Old 04-05-2007, 10:31 AM   #154 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
...Ban me if you want...
Now we're just being theatrical. Where does this comment come from?? You can see your warning rating as clearly as I can, and we both know that people don't get banned for voicing their opinions unless they are over the line.
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Old 04-05-2007, 10:53 AM   #155 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ubertuber
Now we're just being theatrical. Where does this comment come from?? You can see your warning rating as clearly as I can, and we both know that people don't get banned for voicing their opinions unless they are over the line.
I take it back. At the time I was pretty pissed and I thought there was a chance I might have crossed a line. If that's not the case, then I don't have any worry about being banned because the moderation on TFP is fair.

So you go from this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
I don't assume I know anything, in fact, I'm the first to admit I know nothing. I've not made any assumptions in this thread but speak from my FIRST HAND experience however that comes.
To this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
It is YOU who speaks on a soap box preaching you know how it is because you housed and fed them once in your past. YOU preaching how bad it is in Mexico with high unemployment and poor educational system. YOU preaching how altruistic you are.

No my friend, I think you need to see where your feet are standing, it seems to look like a soap box to me.
I've kept people in my home for months at a time, helping them find work, helping them study for the test, just helping them in general. You assume I may have done it once in the past. The reality is that I do it a lot. I have someone who stays at my home on and off right now, in fact. Unfortunately, I have no way to control the education system in my friends' home country. All I can do is help them into ESL classes here and into night classes that teach them marketable skills that not only help our economy but help them feed their family. Just fyi, I don't just do this for illegal immigrants. There are other homeless people that I've helped who are not illegal immigrants. I still donate my time to homeless shelters. Thanksgiving for me means going to homeless shelters and making turkey for less fortunate people.

Last edited by Willravel; 04-05-2007 at 11:02 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 04-05-2007, 11:31 AM   #156 (permalink)
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I'm not going to sit and parse out your previous statements people can look for themselves for where you stated that you did it before but could no longer, yet now you claim that you are still doing it.

Again, if you are doing it and it helps you sleep better at night to help out your friendly illegal immigrant, great, more power to you. Continue to give his/her friends reasons to come here since there are so many other people here willing to open their homes and businesses to them. If there are more people like you housing illegal aliens, IMO you are aiding and abetting a criminal. I would hope that if they toughen the laws for employers that they also toughen laws for people who aid and abet illegals from securing documents to housing and feeding them if they are not registered non profit organizations.

You may say that it's about altruism and sympathy for those less fortunate. Great. Wonderful for you. If that's what gets you through the night if what you've listed in your past is really your past, wonderful if that's how you need to make amends to the world great.

However, I'm not interested in it and I'm not interested in comforting someone who came over here illegally. In fact, I'd be happy to help them arrange a free trip back to their homeland if they are homesick.
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Old 04-05-2007, 11:56 AM   #157 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq
I'm not going to sit and parse out your previous statements people can look for themselves for where you stated that you did it before but could no longer, yet now you claim that you are still doing it.
Legally, I cannot allow illegal immigrants to stay in my home anymore. If I don't ask them, I won't know, though. It gives me plausible deniability. So let me be clear, to my knowledge I am no longer allowing illegal immigrants to stay in my home.

I never would provide anyone with illegal documents or anything of the sort. As for the non-profit thing, you don't need to be a non-profit organization to allow someone to sleep at your house and eat your food. Aiding and abetting a criminal? Not really. That'd be like blaming someone for giving a homeless guy who happens to have broken the law a dollar. Also, I support non-violent civil disobedience in order to bring about positive political change.

Were you serious when you said that you think homeless people want to be homeless?
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Old 04-05-2007, 12:08 PM   #158 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by willravel
Were you serious when you said that you think homeless people want to be homeless?
Ummm...Many (meaning more than just a few) actually do prefer the lifestyle, and are completely comfortable with it.

I thought that you volunteered, in the soup kitchen, helping to feed the homeless. You would know that...not?
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Old 04-05-2007, 12:19 PM   #159 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights
Ummm...Many (meaning more than just a few) actually do prefer the lifestyle, and are completely comfortable with it.

I thought that you volunteered, in the soup kitchen, helping to feed the homeless. You would know that...not?
This is actually quite true. Many homeless people could be more accurately labeled as "transients." Still, I never begrudge a buck or two going their way. *shrug* It's not as if they are living a lifestyle that I would ever envy. Yet, in many cases it is their conscious choice.

end threadjack.
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Old 04-05-2007, 12:27 PM   #160 (permalink)
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will yes, I am serious. there are homeless people out there who would rather be homeless. did you not read the NYtime article I posted?

Quote:
BUT even with all that help, most people dropped out along the way. Fewer than 100 made it into halfway houses or permanent homes. Of the many reasons for the others' failure, one was undoubtedly the easy money available back on the streets.

''What can I do when a guy tells me he's making $300 a day panhandling?'' Mr. McNamara said as he approached Times Square and spotted a man on the corner they had been trying for years to entice to the center. They invited him again, explaining that they had a coat and shoes waiting, but he waved them off. ''I remember another gentleman,'' Mr. McNamara said, ''that I managed to get in for a shower and a meal. We were working on getting him into detox, but he said, 'No, I'm going back on the street to smoke crack.' Well, that was his right. The next week I saw him on the subway with a cup pretending to be crippled. He said he needed money for an operation to straighten his leg.''
Quote:
So let me be clear, to my knowledge I am no longer allowing illegal immigrants to stay in my home.
If that's what you have to say to look at yourself in the mirror, or keep yourself out of jail. John Lennon has a song that comes to mind, "Whatever get's you through the night." But I can tell you that if you were my neighbor and continued to have transient people coming in and out of your domicile, I'd not like you at all. I would feel unsafe in my own neighborhood suddenly. Not for xenophobic reasons, but just because strangers seem to come and go from your house. If I was your child I'd be annoyed that my father spent time and energy with other people than with me. Again, these feelings are based on my own experience firsthand.

If you believe what you are doing is great. Wonderful! Keep doing it. Just don't ask me for help for it because I don't choose that lifestyle for myself. My parents came here to give me a better life than they had and persue the "American Dream." No where have I read nor seen anything that states my part of the American dream is to hold out my hand and help someone else who came here illegally.
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