ubertuber

Disagree... Xenophobia and racism aren't the same thing. They tend to overlap a lot, but that doesn't make them the same thing. The minuteman thing and this deal with Gingrich is more akin to nationalism or culturalism.

It's also worth noting that the minutemen don't exist to keep "them" out of "here". They exist to keep some of them out of here. These guys aren't writing their congressmen in their spare time to restrict ALL immigration, and they're not patrolling avenues of legal immigration. The distinction is huge.

Until someone can actually document a connection between the minutemen and racist groups, linking the two is really no more than a slur.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

pan6467

This isn't about racism or xenophobia it is about not having to change my country for people who enter this country illegally and expect my country to change for them.

It is about seeing the little shacks they live in about 25 miles up the road where a farmer exploits them, yet where they can get drunk, run over a 16 year old girl and "disappear" or rob a store at gunpoint and the worse that happens is they get tossed back to Mexico, only to return the next year and nothing happens.

It is about going out and having the Mexican flag waved in your face while they use an American flag to sit on.

It is in knowing if I went to their country illegally I would be thrown into their prison system. It is in knowing if I were to go to their country and treat their citizens like I am treated in MY country by them I would be in their prison system.

It is in knowing they (the vast majority) have no desire to speak English or even care about this country.

It is in knowing that my government has set aside BILLIONS for their healthcare because they have bankrupted hospitals, tied up and overflown medical facilities in the Southwest and expect free medical care..... while I see natural born US citizens on a daily basis get kicked out of a hospital, not get treated at all, simply because the hospital doesn't have to treat you unless you are in a life or death situation.

As I have stated before if ILLEGALS can get away with ignoring the law the second they enter this country, then why have laws at all?

Why can't we all just do whatever the Hell we want and expect a slap on the wrist, amnesty, not having to pay bills or anything else?

I mean Hell we don't need laws, they discriminate against the stupid, self centered, people who believe society owes them and that they don't need society's values to advance.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

sapiens

Pan:

How can you know that "they" don't care about this country?

How can you know that "they" don't have any desire to speak English?

Why is it even relevant that they don't speak English? If it is about the laws and breaking laws as people have previously stated, there is no law mandating English as the national language. As this is the case, why then do people have a problem with people speaking languages other than English?

Why is the distinction made between ILLEGALS and natural born US citizens? Is it important that they are "natural born"? I think that statements distinguishing natural born US citizens point toward something more than a concern about ILLEGAL immigration. It suggests xenophobia.

I don’t see the huge horde of ILLEGALS forcing me to assimilate. I don’t see the ILLEGALS trying to destroy America.

More generally, it seems to me that if you want immigrants to adjust to life in the United States as quickly as possible, you might want bilingual education to get them started. There is more to learning about living in the US than the English language.

There seems to be a disconnect between the ideas behind the founding of this nation, current attitudes about immigrants, and current immigration law.

roachboy

ok this thread is really sickening. between the various explosions of rhetoric that would be explicitly fascist in the old school sense of the term if you were to substitute "the jews" for "illegals"--same rhetoric, same racist underpinnings, whether you acknowledge it or not--to the delerium concerning the politics of "border protection" like the minutemen and border patrol together function as a giant condom protecting the mighty american penis from contamination....every last one of the "anti-illegal" posts here is
noxious.

before i check out, let me just say: i live in a very diverse neighborhood. for example, if you walk along fullerton ave. which is a block from here, you will pass a cuban resto, a mexican resto, a colombian resto, a puerto rican resto: you will pass a couple computer stores whcih have spanish signs in the windows; you will pass clinics that serve a largely spanish speaking demographic. if you go the other way, there is an argentine place a peruvian place...the nearest bodega is run by folk from honduras...alot of these folk speak heavily accented english and are obviously more comfortable communicating in spanish. in many cases, the same obtains for their kids.

so what?

by the "logic" of this revolting little thread, all of them would be understood as "illegals".... because the distinction being worked here is not predicated on ANY rational criteria, but rather on the relationship to english, which is understood as an index of "assimilation"--well, folks, that is idiotic.
the folk i reference above own their own fucking businesses, they work them as best they can--they have staff in some cases, on other cases they do not. their legal status is not really in question--nor would the question occur to you. but i suppose you could turn up in any of these in your minutemen camo and "protect" us from the plague of people whose english isnt fluent--but if you did, i would be inclined to join many others in kicking the living shit out of you--not "them"--but you.


the idea that migrant labor flows are adequately described as "illegal immigrant" populations is ridiculous--even within documented workers, reverse migration accounts for in many cases up to 80% of the population that enters the country. when you refer to migrant workers as "illegal immigrants" you are set up a phantasm. rather than do even the smallest amount of work to figure out what you are talking about, you prefer to lean on television banalities about the united states as the most deisrable country on the planet, constantly beseiged by the Great Unwashed who want only to Come Here and make their Squalid Lives Better blah blah blah.

the only advantages to it are: (1) because they are entering and leaving the states outside of official stats, your xenophobic-to-racist positions cannot be easily falsified--though even simple inferences can be made using what data there is that wrecks such logic as there is behind your positions and (2) migrant laborers are totally powerless, so they make easy targets for petit bourgeois neofascist style resentment. over the past 90 years or so, it has always like this: it is all too easy to channel petit bourgeois class anxiety onto populations that are even more powerless then they are. it was a significant draw for the s.a. in the late 1920s germany, a significant draw for the poujadistes, a significant draw for the entire history of whacked out american fascist organizations: it is a significant draw for every neofascist organization in europe and apparently for the lots of folk who position themselves as conservatives in the states as well.
and in every case, the ideology is the same thing.
call it something else if it makes you feel better, but the labelling is therapeutic, not accurate, a figleaf you place over fundamentally repugnant political positions.

you want to stop migrant labor flows? go after the employers who hire them. but if you do that, then you cant use this idiotic language criteria to create some hallucinated "other" that poses some vague "threat" to a white english-speaking amurica....no doubt it is much more fun to be a xenophobe-to-racist (depending only on the immediate situation) and then worry about how you are going to deny it.

the entire political logic around this issue is dangerous screwed up: it enables perfectly nice people to remake themselves into the functional equivalent of brownshirts without even their being aware that they are doing it. this too is a constant in extreme right politics--it is a twisted variant on premises that appear to be "common sense"--but they aren't. they are Other. if you cant see it, the problem is yours.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Willravel

You didn't say please, but I'll post a source anyway:
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?aid=13

They've tried to avoid official ties, but they do recruit heavily out of the National Alliance. It only makes sense, really. Who would be better to keep Mexicans in Mexico than people who want to 'keep America white'? When Gim Gilchrist, the head of the Minutemen, was on Democracy Now!, he was challenged in a debate about having ties to the National Alliance. He didn't deny it, but ended the interview without giving response. Had he publicly made any negative statements about the National Alliance or any other white supremacist groups, he would have been risking losing a great deal of Minutemen. In fact, when Gilchrist has rarely come out and said that the Minutemen is not a supremacist groups he has lost members.

The Minutemen are not good guys. They are both racists and xenophobes. They prey on those that are less fortunate and have no choice but to try and cross the border. I really enjoyed the episode of 30 days where a Minuteman had to live with an immigrant family. I only wish all Minutemen had that opportunity.

dc_dux

While formal institutional connections may not exist, their overlapping interests and agenda on this issue are mutually supporting.
The ignornance and vitriolic gross mischaracterizations of those here who couch their intolerance in the "save America from the illegals" rhetoric sickens me as well.

Illegal immigration is an issue we must address as a nation. I only hope reasonable minds prevail and that it is done in a rational manner with respect for human dignity and the core values of our nation. I further hope that your American never becomes my America.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

mixedmedia

roachboy speaks the truth.

I haven't been this disgusted with a conversation since my Debate Politics days. But, at least there I had a pretty good idea of which direction the right-wing shitstorm would be coming from.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Cynthetiq

I'm sorry but I cannot understand how or where Xenophobic and Racist comes into play from my stance of following rules?

My mother in law wanted to stay in the UK but here divorced her British husband before papers were completed, her artist visa expired and she had to come back to the US. She followed the rules. She desperately wanted to stay in London but could not since she did not want to break any laws.

My disdain for my cousins who overstayed visas how is that xenophobic or racist?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

The_Jazz

Ah, cyn, you've gotten to the core of the issue.

Your disdain for your cousins is just fine and perfectly acceptable. It nothing to do with racism or xenophobia and more with family politics.

Racism and xenophobia rear their ugly head when we talk about groups, not individuals. And that's the basic problem that a lot of us (roachboy, mixedmedia, me) are having with this discussion. We're not talking about individuals; people here are condemning entire groups. There's already been a well-written attempt to humanize the problem, but it seems to have fallen by the wayside too soon.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

mixedmedia

And The_Jazz hits a homer, as well.

Xenophobia and racism come from a tendency to think of a group or groups as "other." Back in our old glory days of racism, in between the Civil War and Civil Rights, it was very common for people were very actively racist to have friendships with the "good" black man who comes to work in their yard or the "good" black woman who does their laundry and at the same time harbor violent hatred for the black "other." It's a mindset that is deceptive and, in history, has taken hold of groups during times of societal change and perceptions of danger from the outside resulting in extreme anti-social behavior and genocide. Now I may come across as reactionary myself, so be it. But you can't deny history. And we've already seen one person on this thread call for the execution of illegal immigrants crossing the border with no real outrage from anyone other than those on this side of the argument.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Cynthetiq

I'm still failing to see this, as I am applying my disdain for the family members to the same groups of people that are crossing our borders illegally, those that come here on visas and overstay.

I cannot speak for anyone else but myself, but I do not want "those" people to be here, based on the simplicity of not using the due process to get here, but wanting to use due process to allow themselves to stay.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

If it were not illegal, would you be against it? Please, just a yes or no. The idea would be to question if you believe that the law makes sense.

The_Jazz

Cyn, perhaps another point in your favor in that my neat little solution was neither neat nor a solution - just like the real world. You fall outside my xenophobia/racism argument for the most part. Honestly, most first and second generation immigrants usually do, and they're typically harder on illegals than others.

What I find interesting is that no one has mentioned the thousands of illegal European immigrants that are here. The two Polish women that work for the cleaning service my wife hired are almost certainly illegally working, if not here illegally. I know of at least 5 fencing coaches in Chicago that are here on expired visas, one of whom coached 2 athletes to national championships and makes well over $100k/year. They're all here illegally, but because they got off a plane and didn't have to walk in, they get less attention.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Cynthetiq

Will - Yes.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

So if the type of immigration specified were legal, you'd still be against it. Why?

pan6467

Look, I'm neither racist nor xenophobic.... believe what you will, I truly don't care. My stance is simple.... you come into this country illegally, you have shown no respect for our laws and you are a criminal and need to be treated as such.

No ifs, no ands, no buts.

If I were to go to any Central American country or even Canada illegally, I would be a criminal and I would expect to be treated as such. Very, very few countries would say, "you broke our laws, but that's ok.... here let's change our language for you, here let's make sure you are comfortable. You came here illegally, but that's ok.... we can choose and pick what laws we want to follow and enforce."

You don't like the immigration laws and how one has to go about getting into this country, change the laws, vote for congressional leaders and presidents that will change the laws....until then, however, illegals are illegals and thus they are criminals who have no respect for our laws or our country.

Millions of people work hard and sacrifice every year (sometimes for years) to become legal citizens and it is a slap in their faces when we say "it's ok come over illegally.... fuck the laws."

I don't care who comes over legally. I am secure in who I am to not care about one's race, ethnicity etc..... but you come over illegally... yes, I will stereotype you, yes, I will treat you less than and yes, I will hold no respect for you, becuase you showed my country and all that I believe and hold dear to mean nothing to you.

You come illegally, you prove you have no respect for our laws and customs and in essence this country.

You come illegally, you can say I'm racist, you can say I xenophobic, that I am a skinheaded, neo Nazistic, KKK member, I don't fucking care.... because basically you showed me you are nothing but a criminal and labelling me because I am calling you on your shit is solely done to make you feel better.

When you look at it from the outside the people calling the names and doing the labelling of law abiding citizens are those that are ok with people who break the law.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Cynthetiq

If you mean that people can just freely walk into our borders as if they were crossing the street being legalized, again Yes, that is not acceptable.

I can see from where I now eat my lunches a glaring hole in the skyline of Lower Manhattan. I can see from my bedroom, and my living room that same missing building space. Our immigration services failed us then and if our borders are porous as they are now they are still failing us now.

I've spent a good amount of time reading about the immigrants who came via Ellis Island, while my parents did not go come through there, I am still fascinated by the process that methodology for processing immigrants coming into the US. Illness and disease was quite common, so if you so much as coughed you could easily be sent back on another boat.

Whooping cough and tuberculosis is on the rise in NYC supposedly becuase of illegal immigration. Xenophobia? Perhaps, but I don't like getting stuck with that TB test and having to come back to the doctor's office to have them look at it and say there's nothing there. Great, I just wasted my time taking off from work etc. That is a direct annoyance and an inconvenience to me.

I am all for due process, you want to come here, then come here under the legal methods. My mother as soon as she was naturalized took every opporutnity to vote for changes in immigration laws as did a number of her friends and collegues. That's working the existing system as it should be done. It may take years but that's what it takes. It should not be done with blatant disregard to laws and legal processes. If the Spanish voting block voted to have the laws changed then so be it.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

dc_dux

Pan..I havent seen anyone here condone illegal immigration.

What I find offensive is the over-the-top reaction, starting with a false assumption:

Illegal Aliens commit a felony when they cross the border illegally..
**as I understand current immigration law, crossing the border without proper documentation is an "unlawful act" which is less than a misdomeanor (like jaywalking) and overstaying a visa is a misdomeanor.**

followed by:
I am willing to vote for politicians that will put up fences, a deadman zone and give orders to shoot to kill any and all illegals trying to cross the border.
** you dont shoot and kill for a misdomeanor offense**

and the equall outrageous:
The ILLEGAL is a parasitic disease minded criminal that comes here and takes all they can and demands we change for them.
** an ugly and ignorant characterization**

What the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT wants is to have everything handed to him and to be a parasite on our nation. They aren't trying to better our country... they want our country to accomodate them and they expect us to roll over and do whatever they want us to.
*** what most of "them" want is to provide for their families*

where they can get drunk, run over a 16 year old girl and "disappear" or rob a store at gunpoint and the worse
*** most illegals go about quietly doing their job, paying taxes (yes they pay taxes) and minding their own business. The criminals among them should be treated as criminals.***

I'll say again, I dont condone illegal immigration. We have a problem, that we, as a nation, must confont. It starts with toning down the rhetotic and finding a solution that meets the level of the "crime", is reasonable and practical, and serves the best interest of the country.

IMO, that is to provide a path towards citiizenship for most of the illegals here (those who are contributing with jobs, no criminal record, etc) along with paying back taxes and a fine, and getting in line (in some fashion) for proper documentation.

The alternative is to round-up 12+ million illegals, and looking beyond the feasibility of such a measure, one can only wonder how many legals would be caught up in such a sweep.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

pig

hold up pan, do you have this same level of contempt for everyone who breaks a united states law? in the most outstretched case: american citizens who speed? what about kids who played rock and roll? is this really just about disrespect for our "accepted" culture? that just doesn't seem logical...we do that all on our own. culture isn't a stagnant thing; it is constantly in the process of morphing. i think this has been stated many times before in the thread, but you are taking a pretty complex situation, erecting a massive strawman fallacy out of it, and then railing against the people who fall outside of "your side." its definitely an issue that needs to be addressed, but setting up rifles on the border? these are people man.

in general, you can't expect to have a huge economic disparity such as that between the us and mexico, for example, and expect people not to react to it. things are blending in together; and what else could you rationally expect with the economics of the situation, plus increased travel and communication. this is happening everywhere, and there's not much that can be done to stop it. better regulate it? yes. to me, its much the same issue as globalization, in general, and quite close to the situation with overseas sweatshops. turns out, we have some jobs here that we're not particularly crazy about doing. you might not like that, but given the wages that are offered for the jobs, and wages offered across the border, the current situation is entirely predictable.

so what if our country becomes bilingual? its still about conversation, and frankly huge parts of the states have a strong hispanic history to them.

jorgelito: i considered chinese. it might happen. i think that the differences between chinese and english / most european languages will slow that affect down in terms of international diasphorization for common language communication; but knowing asian languages would and is already a big bonus in international businesses. i suspect the same will be true and is true of middle-eastern languages as the power crunch starts to crank up.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

archetypal fool

You (Pan) still don't seem to understand something, man. Actually, to be more fair, we have a difference in morality, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But I want you ot get something strait. People don't come here explicitly to ruin your life. They come here because they have some problem (war, poverty, etc...) and the solution is to move to a more prosperous country. If they can't move to said country hastily enough, what do you expect them to do? Stay there and starve or die while they wait for visas to clear and their governments (or ours) to get the ball rolling so they can come here? That's ridiculous. And yes...It's illegal. No one's debating that. But realize that this is one of those laws which splits people apart (case in point...).

It all goes back to moral arguments.

I don't remember where I read this, but consider this situation: In biblical time, you and your family are poor for reasons beyond your control, dying of starvation. You get caught stealing a piece of bread for your family. Did you break a law? Absolutely. But should you be condemned to prison (or killed) because of it? After all, you did break the law, and anyone who breaks the law is automatically evil and a shit of a person, right? According to your logic, this person is as bad as a murderer, or rapist. After all, they are all criminals...

Put yourself in the shoes of a person fleeing their country to come to ours. Get rid of this division of "me" and "them".

Since my case didn't make any difference in your view of us, consider the story of Jose Gutierrez. By your standards, a notorious criminal who deserved to rot in jail (for illegally coming to this country). He went to the join the Marines, to serve for his country, and make money for college and his sister. He was the first combat casualty of the war with Iraq. He died for us. Do you think if he hadn't been such a scumbag, you would be grateful? Whatever...He was just another dirty "illegal".

dc_dux

As to the bilingual issue:

The 14th amendment to the Constitution provides that "no state shall abridge the privilieges of citizens... nor deny any person equal protection under the law."

If that means bilingual education, multilingual ballots and other govt documents, while at the same time providing the opportunity for learning english....whats the big fucking deal? How does that hurt you or me?

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

archetypal fool

dc_dux
It doesn't. Newt Gingrich is just trying to gain points from his conservative republican/borderline ignorant racists. Since he's gaining in rank within republicans as a presidential candidate, I'm going to assume it's working...

Willravel

No. I mean if they were less restrictive, but still in place.
Assuming the official story, immigration let us down by allowing the terrorists to quickly and easily slip into our country legally. Do you really think that tighter security will help? I could get into the US for less than $500 from anywhere in the world, and I have no CIA training whatsoever.
Alright, I had to show a source for the National Alliance thing. Do you have a source for the TB thing? I'm asking honestly, because I'm not aware of any information on this. BTW, according to many medical journals over the past 10 years, a TB epidemic could be a great threat to our entire species...so a few extra antibodies might be a good thing. It might be inconvenient, but so is a tetanus shot after getting shot with a nail gun.

Cynthetiq

Less restrictive is fine, they have changed immigration laws over time over decades. Less restrictive happens via due process like my mother and her collegues voting for representatives who were for less restrictive immigration or easier visas for healthcare workers.

There is my link for the TB information from NYC's DOH.

As far as INS making it safer, while terrorism is still possible, there are also just simple "normal" crimes, the DC Sniper should never have been here and would have not killed 10 people who were just going about their lives.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

jorgelito

I live in LA. It is completely different from the East coast. Besides, the so-called "Hispanic" demographic is a disparate group. The Ecuadorians hate the Peruvians, and the Guatemalans refuse to work with the Hondurans, the Bolivians and Columbians don't get along, none of "them" will hire black people, and the Cubans and Puerto Ricans are always at each other's throats here. Even within the Mexicans, they are not uinified. I live in an Oaxacan neighborhood and they are pretty territorial. I found it interesting when my Mexican friends say how much they hated the Oaxacans for refusing to speak Spanish and assimilate into Mexican culture. I was shocked and speechless.

In any case, the Minutemen et al are NOT racist nor xenophobic. They are not anti-immigrant, they are anti-illegal immigrant. BIG BIG BIG BIG BIG difference. People all too often clud the issues and can't or won't make the distinction.

There can't be any racism simply because Latino's are not a race. If you can show me how Ricky Martin and Sammy Sosa (both Latinos) are the same race then I will eat my hat.

The Minutemen (God bless them) are also posted on our borders with Canada so let's not cloud the issues and try to create racism where none exists. The only thing shameful is the fact that they are doing the job our own government refuses to do and they are not even getting paid to do so. They would ratehr shake down my grandma at the airport than protect our nation's porous' borders. When my international friends ask how they can get a visa or emigrate to the US, I tell them, don't bother. Just go to Mexico and cross over from there.

They are not trying to "keep Mexicans in Mexico" they are trying to uphold the laws of our country. Again, no one is anti-immigrant, they are anti-illegal immigrant and the flagrant flouting of the laws of this country.

I would also like to point out that the so-called Hispanic population in Cali overwhelmingly voted against driver's licenses for illegals. The Latino-American demographic is also against unlawful entry and illegal immigration. ILLEGAL, NOT, LEGAL.

Of course they have a choice. They can legally immigrate. We all did. Again, no one is against anyone legally immigrating here. In fact, I welcome them with all due enthusiasm. Immigrants made our country great. What I cannot abide is the unlawful, illegal immigration.

Actually they get more INS attention but less media attention. That is the other problem with this framework is that typically the crowd screaming "you racists" are too narrowminded and only see this as a "Hispanic' issue.

Again, no one is anti-Hispanic nor is anyone racist (mostly due to the fact that Hispanics ARE NOT A RACE). What people are against is illegla immigration, NOT legal immigration. How would that make us racist or xenophobic?

I think part of the problem is that roachboy, Mixedmedia et al (besides insulting us) fail to understand our point and quickly reduce our viewpoint to a one-dimensional "they are hate filled raciast vitriolic fascist etc etc blah blah" instead of the basic argument and premise that we have laid out and keep laying out which is the issue of legality. That's it. Plain and simple.

Um, yes it does. It adds more cost to an already strained system as well as impeding the development of the students they are supposed to help. I am grateful I wasn't given a bilingual education, that I wasn't lazy and worked hard in school. Again, what is so hard or wrong or bad about learning English? I would think it would be beneficial to the student yes?

Archetype, I appreciate your humanity but I feel you are making en error in arguing for a moral angle. Obviously all these people are coming here for a better life. But your story is just an attempt to play on emotions and only serves to cloud the issue. I'm sorry that guy died in Iraq but what does this have to do with this thread? If I don't support the war in Iraq then why would I be grateful to Guttierez? He didn't die for us? Please, not in our name. Does this make me xenophobic, racist now? Does this mean all the people against the war are also anti immigrant xenophobic racist because they don't support the war?

Why do you keep saying us? Who are you identifying with? Do you mean you as an American or something else?

You say "get rid of this division of me and them" yet you choose to create a division by using "us" when you say "your view of us" then go back to saying "our country". What do you mean by us? Us Mexicans? Us illegals? Us Americans?

Willravel

Where did you and I legally immigrate from? I immigrated from California? The problem is that th system is slow and stupid. It's as meaningless as a jaywalking charge in a town with no cars. Yes, some of the more privileged or lucky can legally immigrate, but MOST can't. MOST are living in drug infested slums in Mexico in a situation where they could die soon. They could watch their family die. I support Mexicans to come up here for work in order to help their families.

jorgelito

I agree with you Will, absolutely. I think the immigration laws need some reform. But like I said before, it's an issue of legality.

Um, I'm not sure why you are only referring to Mexico. I think all peoples deserve a shot at living the US dream so long as they follow the rules. ALL of my immigrant friends, Mexicans included (yes it can be done) did it the legal way. Half of my family (the half not born here) did it the legal way even if it did take 15 years. 15 years, but we still followed the rules.

Part of the issue is about special treatment. It seems like they, the illegals from south of the border are always crying about wanting special treatment, to cut the line. The rest of us immigrated legally, why can't they? Are you (not you, you but the collective you) saying that they are too stupid or incapable to do it the legal way and need "special help"?

If there's something wrong with the law then change the law.

mixedmedia

I don't think it has presented as matter of legality, plain and simple, jorgelito. This started as a discussion on bilingual education and assimilation. Obviously, the matter is about more than legality. It is about a clash of cultures. I'm truly sorry if I insulted you, but knowing what we all know about where these sorts of clashes have drifted in the past, I don't think it's out of the realm of polite discussion to bring it up. If you don't see any racism or xenophobia on this thread but you see it among the various Hispanic subsets, then I think you're experiencing a little bit of an ideological blind spot when it comes to this issue.

I agree, there needs to be drastic changes in immigration law so that people who want to come here can do so easier. A LOT of Americans would disagree with that. But some people don't feel they have the time to wait. Some people are desperate. You don't walk out of your house with just enough possessions to fill a duffel bag and walk to another country or pay your last peso to a guy who stuffs you in the back of a suffocating trailer to drive you there if you are not desperate. Have you ever felt desperate? I have. And at these times you are not thinking, let me walk downtown and stand in line so someone else can, maybe, years from now help me. You take matters into your own hands and help yourself. Yes, taking the "moral view" clouds your thinking when it comes to situations like these. As it should. It is the classic line of demarcation between liberal and conservative thought...ironically. And ignoring the "moral view" can often take us to a place where we find it rational to shoot these people as they are trying to cross the border.

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PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

dc_dux

Sorry if you feel insulted, Jorgelito....but I would suggest it is one dimensional to describe "them" as parasitic disease minded criminals, who should be shot at the border before they come here to get drunk, rob stores and kill our kids...because they are lazy and dont want to contribute, dont want to learn english and want us to accomodate their every need while they wave the Mexican flag.

What exactly is the "basic argument and premise" that you have laid out? That illegal immigration is wrong? I agree. So what do you propose we do?

Or that bilingual education is somehow a special accomodation to recent hispanic immigrants? I disagree...we have a long history of bilingual education.

How does the kind of rhetoric i cited above lead to a productive discussion of solutions?

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ubertuber

Isn't there really only one person talking that way?

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archetypal fool

My post was meant specifically for Post, because he has a skewed opinion about us, us being illegal (or formally so) immigrants. And I was trying to get him to realize that we are humans. Those who come he legally, they do so because they can. They are able to wait for the chance. If you can wait in such a situation, then immigrating legally isn't an issue. Not everyone can, though. That's what I'm trying to point out.

I mentioned Gutierrez because I'm trying to prove a point I've already tried to prove before: Yes, it's illegal, but that doesn't automatically make the person less-than human at all. You may not agree with the war (and I don't, neither does 70% of America), but that doesn't make my point any less valid. He may not have died in your name, but he did defending the country that gave him freedom and an opportunity to make something out of himself. He died defending what you and I and everyone else here loves about this country.

(by the way, it doesn't make you xenophobic/racist to not agree with this war. I don't understand where that connection came into play)

Don't ever disregard morality. If something is illegal, it isn't automatically immoral. The law and morality don't run hand in hand down a dewy meadow.

I can understand why you may feel threatened by this one particular law being broken, but what I can't understand is why you refuse to acknowledge the situation and have a little empathy, but rather just dismiss it all and condemn those come here illegally.

dc_dux

Uber..perhaps so, but I have seen other comments like "I really don't understand why they refuse to learn when the rest if us did" or "they dont want to assimilate and want us to accomodate them."

IMO, these are oversimplistic generalizations with no basis in fact and bring us no closer to solutions.

To those who have so vocally expressed such opinions on illegal immigration...I would ask again...what exactly is the "basic argument and premise" that you have laid out? That illegal immigration is wrong? I agree. So what do you propose we do rather than continually bitching about the problem?

Or that bilingual education is somehow a new special accomodation to meet the "demands" of recent hispanic immigrants? Thats just bullshit...we have a long history of bilingual education and we have tinkered with the most recent law and programs numerous times in the last 40 years to make the process of learniing english more efficient and effective.

Where is the evidence that "they" (recent hispanic immigrants) dont want to learn english?

A recent study from the reputable Pew Hispanic Center found this:

Latinos, like nearly all Americans, agree that teaching English to the children of immigrant families is an important goal. The vast majority also says that it is important to help students from immigrant families maintain their native tongue.

* The vast majority of Latinos (92%) say that teaching English to the children of immigrant families is a "very" important goal and another 7% say it is a "somewhat" important goal. Whites and African Americans hold almost identical views.
* Almost nine in ten (88%) Latinos and eight in ten African Americans (79%), say that it is important for public schools to help students from immigrant families maintain their native tongue, including over two-thirds (67%) of Latinos who say that it is "very" important and another 21% say that it is "somewhat" important. Fewer, but still a majority of whites (57%) also agree.
http://pewhispanic.org/newsroom/rele...hp?ReleaseID=7

What is wrong with wanting to maintain your culture and language while at the same time assimlating into the broader community? Why is that a detriment to the nation as whole? IMO, we should value our cultural diversity, not repress it.

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"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
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Bill O'Rights

That may be true...here.

But, I do hear very much the same line of thought...almost verbatim, actualy...from numerous sources, in real life.

So, while we may not be seeing the viewpoint being expressed on the boards, I would submit that it's more than likely there. The "one person" may be the only one with the stones to come out with it.

And, I would further submit that the "one person" may not be totaly incorrect in his assesment. I do, however, believe that he is laboring under a misconception. It is human nature to fear and lash out at that which we do not understand. It's foreign. It's alien. They must be out to get us, so let us huddle here in our zone of comfort.

Take, for example, the "flag waving". I could be wrong, but I see that more as national pride than a political statement.
I know that I like to go to La Festa Italiana, Oktobefest, the Greek Festival and numerous other such festivals in the Omaha area that celebrate heritage. In another month...go to a Cinco de Mayo celebration. I guarantee you a good time. And I'm the biggest whitest gringo there is.

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It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

mixedmedia

Yes. And only a handful of us speaking against it.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

flstf

I don't know enough about government finances to determine if it is disirable (or even possible) for the U.S. to accommodate all who wish to come here. I read and hear conflicting information of the strain on hospitals, schools, and other social costs from immigration (legal and illegal). I suspect that with more government spending in these areas that the costs are much higher than years ago when there was less help for newcomers.

It would be wonderful if the U.S. could open its doors to all but is it wrong to set some limits? In regards to morality and fairness, what does it say to those who follow the rules and wait years to immigrate when we give amnesty to those who cut in line before them?

President Bush's and the Senates "path to citizenship" results in the easiest path being to break the law and come here illegally unless you want to wait in line for years.

I guess I am torn between the concept of controlling the number of immigrants or letting everyone come who wants to. If we are going to grant amnesty to those who broke our laws then we should also allow those who followed the rules to come here immediately.

I also don't think our government or schools should be responsible for teaching classes in all the different languages. Maybe the government can finance some language transition programs or something but putting this burden on the schools seems a bit much.

pan6467

Thank you Jorgelito, you expressed very well what I guess I couldn't.

I still have a hard time understanding why I am a racist, Xenophobic KKK, white supremist, neo Nazistic, Facsist because I expect and demand people who want to immigrate to my country to do so legally. Those that choose to come illegally are criminals they broke a law... but I'm the bad guy, I'm the racist, Xenophobic KKK, white supremist, neo Nazistic, Facsist.

I have often wondered what if the next wave of terrorists comes from these illegals. What do these people who are so passionate about letting them in, embracing them and just all happy that they got here say then?

"Oh it was just a small group, the vast majority would never hurt anyone."

"You're still a racist, Xenophobic KKK, white supremist, neo Nazistic, Facsist and they acted out of your hatred. It was because they were so hated by you that they blew up a mall, passed anthrax, passed tuberculosis, brought in massive amounts of heroin, cocaine, etc. all laced with poisons."

"You don't understand, they are people too. They just want a better life... who cares that they broke a law the second they came here? They were treated poorly, discriminated against when they got here so they blew up a plane, a bridge, a hospital.... it's our fault because we didn't try to embrace them enough."

Like I said.... not saying any of that will happen.... but what if it does? Will I still be a racist, Xenophobic KKK, white supremist, neo Nazistic, Facsist for having the balls to stick up for my country and demand people come here legally?

Or will I be attacked and reminded that some terrorists come here legally, some were born here.... so, no big deal that we allowed in illegals that turned out to be terrorists.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

I'm not so much advocating breaking the law as I am advocating changing the law. I do view it as peaceful civil disobedience, which I still feel is a powerful tool in bringing about change. I would hope that civil disobedience on the scale we see with illegal immigration would bring about change. So far, things have only improved slightly.
I name Mexico (because I have the most experience with Central Americans, namely Mexicans), but I mean any impoverished nation. I'm not as worried about people coming from the slums of Canada or the UK. Norvin, a friend of mine from Nicaragua, is a lawful (other than his illegal immigration), valuable member of society.
The line is broken, and that leaves them little choice but to try and cut. They are tired, poor, and yearning to be free, as the saying goes. I am not suggesting that they are too stupid to get in. I'm saying they aren't the lucky ones. Yes, many are incapable of legal immigration, not because of anything they have control over mind you, but because of circumstance and a broken system.
I'd love to.

Cynthetiq

really the line is broken?

do you have any relatives or friends who are currently applying for citizenship, green card or any type of visa?

Because so far, it doesn't seem broken to me for the vast amount of people I know who travel or visit the US via the tourist or work visas.

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Willravel

I can name a dozen from Mexico alone off the top of my head, maybe 25-30 from Central America. As a matter of fact, I've helped several of them study for the civics test, which is not by any means easy. Had I not had available to me resources on the test, I might have failed the test myself. And I'm no dummy. Even if all requirements are met, the odds of one of the 30 being accepted as a citizen are slim to none. Most of them have worked on visas here, and speak English well enough to make it in the US. The problem is that the education system in Mexico has let them down. Unless you're very rich or very lucky, you won't go to a decent school in Mexico. In addition to that, the same rich and lucky are really the only ones who are granted citizenship. If a border-hopper is lucky, he or she can marry an American, but that's not common enough to really help a fraction of those who need help.
You mean people from rich countries that vacation in the US or spend time here as a student? Why would it be hard for them?

dc_dux

Pan..it is intelectually dishonest to put words in someone else's mouth and IMO simply is a way to ignore acknowledging your ugly generalizations.

But putting that aside, I dont advocate an open immigration policy and open borders. i dont believe we can support unlimited immigration. The current policy of allowing about 1 million/yr seems generally reasonable to me - based on quotas from countries of origin (the quotas may need to be changed to be less heavily white European) and factors like family connections, meeting our employment needs, and/or need for personal asylum. The policy is not broken; it just may need tinkering (eg...we have allowed less than 1,000 Iraqis to emmigrate here over 3 years after we raped their country and left the personal security of millions threatened)....along with a much more serious committment to border security (beyond a symbolic fence).

And that is an entirely separate issue from what to do about the more than 12 million illegals already here.

...the ones that you (Pan) seem to be bitching about the most, yet you still offer no intelligent thoughts on solutions.`

On bilingual education:
I agree its a burden on the educational system, but probably the most cost-effective way given that the primary beneficiaries are children.

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"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
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