Jerusalem - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

crumbbum · 06-18-2003, 02:44 PM

The use of child soldiers is a war crime. If a child is trying to throw a molotov cocktail into a tank, he is threatening the lives of the soldiers. Why is a child on a battlefield? What would you do, as a soldier, if a crowd of screaming children surrounded you, and began pelting you with fist sized rocks? I'm sure you'd say "stop", but then your nose would get broken. Maybe your knees would hit next. When the next one hit you in the side of the head, and suddenly you are seeing double, realizing that you are about to die. What would you do?

A further question. If you were a wanted man, and you knew that there people out who were trying to kill you, what would you do? You would run, or hide out. What about your family? If you loved your kids, what would you tell them to do if you knew you were being targeted? I know that if it was me, and i loved my kids, I would make sure there were as far from me as possible. Instead, Palestinian terrorists surround themselves with as many women and kids as possible, so that when such people are unintentionally killed, people like you fall for it hook, line and sinker. The use of human shields is a war crime. In the Gulf war, Saddam hid weapons and soldiers in hospitals, schools, and Red Cross depots. Whose fault is it if they are targeted?

If it is, as you say, "tanks against kids", why is it that 2/3 of Israelis that have been killed are civilian non-combatants, whereas only 10% of Palestinian casualties are? Palestinian terrorists deliberately target and murder innocent people, as many as possible. In the fight against terrorism, some Palestinian civilians are killed. The terrorists choose to hide in urban areas, surrounded by people. I'd be curious as to how you would handle it.

If this person really read this whole thread, as they claim, and they really believe what they are saying, I do not believe that they are motivated by compassion for suffering people. To be so willfully ignorant, to pay such selective attention to reality, this person must not be motivated by compassion, but by loathing of the state of Israel, or of Jews.

Believe it or not, Sun-Tzu, I do care about the suffering on the Palestinian side as well. I think it is disgusting that they have been kept in squallid refugee camps for 55 years. As I posted earlier, Israel made an effort at one point to build them better living accomodations, to improve the humanitarian situation, and of course the Arab countries refused. This is because Palestinian suffering has been and continues to be exploited. I would like this conflict to end as soon as possible, to end the suffering of both parties. I do not want things to happen that would increase the violence or reinforce the things that are the real sources of the conflict. I have already articulated, as has the author of the article I posted above from the National Review, what keeps this conflict going. Whoever, after reading this whole thread, could post such an ignorant statement, is not in any way serious about or motivated by a desire for peace.

The anti-Israel religious Jews are in fact still Zionists- they believe very strongly that Jews have a right to the land. They are in opposition to a secular state of Israel. They believe that the only Jewish country on that land should be a religious society, which they think will be established with the coming of the messiah. They still however, pray three times a day for the "return to Zion". Don't make the mistake of confusing this with something else. They just don't believe in any secular Israel. They are also a tiny minority among religious Jews.

If there is anyone else still reading this thread, I would really appreciate if someone would acknowledge that I am making some valid points here. I don't care if anyone agrees with my conclusions, but it is exhausting debating when the other party is choosing willful ignorance, or paying selective attention to information I've posted. It is pointless, as I'm coming to realize, to try to reason with these kinds of statements as that last post. I hope someone reading the thread at least has found some things I've posted thought provoking. Such sentiment makes me fearful for the future of the world I live in.

popo · 06-18-2003, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darkblack
Sun Tzu, brother I have read this entire thing. Just let it go. You will never get it through his head that Israel has done anything wrong. No matter what you post it will "prove absolutely nothing" in his mind.

Guns against rocks.

Tanks against suicide bombs.

Soldiers against kids.

He doesn't see a difference.

Thank you for educating me a bit on the subject and for being a champion for our side on this thread.

Oh puleaze.

Trust me, spewing that garbage doesn't do anything for "your side".

crumbbum · 06-18-2003, 05:39 PM

I'd like to add that it isn't a war against children, the very idea of which is ludicrous- it is a war against terrorists who make bombs, and pack them with NAILS DIPPED IN RAT POISON and detonate them among as many innocent people, often specifically kids, as possible. It is a war against people who send suicide bombers, and after the initial blast, remote control bombs blow up at exits of areas, to kill those who try to escape. It is a war against terrorists that shoot at the ambulance teams that arrive to try and save the wounded, Arab and Jew. Mercy to the cruel perpetuates cruelty to the merciful.

Darkblack · 06-18-2003, 06:53 PM

ok. what you people don't understand is that these people are being chased out of their homes and off their land at gun point. They don't have tanks and helicopters. They have shit with nails in it to strap to themselves as a weapon. We are not giving them money to fight a war but we are Israel. If it was the YOU being pushed off your land and being told that it is not your land anymore that it belongs to the some other religion or group of people would you not fight for it? If they had a lot of money to buy weapons buy you only had homemade weapons would you fight? If you were being told that what you were doing is terrorism but what the other side is doing is right would you stop and say oh ok ill just move...to where?

please.

popo · 06-18-2003, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darkblack
ok. what you people don't understand is that these people are being chased out of their homes and off their land at gun point. They don't have tanks and helicopters. They have shit with nails in it to strap to themselves as a weapon. We are not giving them money to fight a war but we are Israel. If it was the YOU being pushed off your land and being told that it is not your land anymore that it belongs to the some other religion or group of people would you not fight for it? If they had a lot of money to buy weapons buy you only had homemade weapons would you fight? If you were being told that what you were doing is terrorism but what the other side is doing is right would you stop and say oh ok ill just move...to where?

please.

1) That's not what happening

2) The EU and Arab countries supply PLENTY of money to the Palestinians.

But for you to make statements like this makes me realize that no matter what anyone here says, you will believe what you want to believe.

crumbbum · 06-18-2003, 08:35 PM

On the chance that you are simply honestly misinformed, you should know that no one is kicking Palestinians out of their land. On the contrary, Israel in the Oslo process was falling over itself in it's attempt to withdraw from the territories. That's part of why they continued to make concessions even when the Palestinians were breaking every agreement made with them. No one is kicking them out of anywhere, and the current government of Israel even now supports a Palestinian state. The only time Palestinians lost their homes was in the 1948 war, when 67% fled as the war started, thinking they could come back after the Jews were wiped out (they weren't), and 33% who were evacuated from their homes in the course of the war when their village was a military threat (many of the arab villages were forward bases for the arab armies, and as arab positions, when they were in locations that were a serious military threat the Israelis seized the area in order to defend themselves. The most obvious example would be some of the arab villages in the galilee. No one was expelled for the purpose of stealing, the Jews were trying to defend themselves from attack by 5 armies, and needed secure borders. With that exception, the Palestinian arabs have not and are not being expelled from their land in any way, though with a lot of the propaganda floating around you'd think that they were.

crumbbum · 06-18-2003, 08:53 PM

And actually, in addition to the huge sums of money poured in by the EU and whatnot, the US does in fact give a lot ofmoney to them as well (though not as much as Israel). In terms of military aid, this is mostly because Israel is surrounded by enemies who have tried in the past and will likely try again in the future to destroy Israel. No one is trying to destroy the Palestinians at all. Military aid to them is not only not needed, but would be used to kill more civilians. Actually, I read recently that Bush authorized something like 200 million dollars to be given to the new Palestinian security force. The security force created during the Oslo accords, which Israel armed, never fought terrorism as was it's stated purpose- in fact, the same guns were turned on Israelis when most of the police officers participated in terrorist attacks against Israel. It has yet to be seen whether this time things will be any different. I hope that my government isn't funding the murder of civilians.

But anyway, the Palestinians get plenty of money. Unfortunately, most of it is diverted to terror groups and/or skimmed off the top by the corrupt Palestinian leaders (Arafat has a personal fortune of over 300 million), while the people nearly starve. This is done deliberately, to make it look like Israel is responsible for the humanitarian conditions that result. The suffering of the Palestinians has been exploited all along for political ends. They are not only the only refugees in history never to be repatriated anywhere after 55 years, but they also remain in the same squallid camps. Like I said above, when Israel offered to build them better places to live, the arab countries refused. If the Palestinians weren't suffering, Arafat and the Palestinian leadership wouldn't be able to blame Israel for all of their problems. It's pretty sick. In almost every area (politics, schools, tactics, media) you will see what little regard for human life the Arab leaders have. It is no coincidence that the Arab Middle East is home to the most atrocious human rights abuses in the world (honor killings, gruesome capital punishment, murder of dissidents, female circumcision, etc.).

crumbbum · 06-18-2003, 09:29 PM

Just checked, actually, the sum was 300 million. Sorry. Oh, and the new Palestinian Prime Minister Abbas has invited Hamas and Islamic Jihad to join the leadership. Peace is on the way!

Mojo_PeiPei · 06-18-2003, 11:24 PM

What happens when you lose 4 wars in 25 years? You resort to Terrorism. Fucking cowards. I say we just let Israel loose on them (Arabs as a whole), they've been holding back for way to long. It'd be nice to see them Tactically nuke the Kaa'ba. By the way anyone else find it funny how Allah used to be the moon god? The Kaa'ba used to be filled with Statues to other gods, Muhammed wasn't even the first one to worship Allah.

Edited for content

George W Bush · 06-19-2003, 04:07 AM

Israel is a Jewish word not arab. It says Israel on pages 3, 78, and 234 of my Bible; nuff said.

Darkblack · 06-19-2003, 04:44 AM

lol and you keep using your bible to dictate whos land is whos.

funny.

Darkblack · 06-19-2003, 05:15 AM

Don't get me wrong I do no think one side is right and the other is wrong. Both sides are wrong and until one side takes the high road and stops retaliating terrorism with terrorism it will not end.

Mojo_PeiPei · 06-19-2003, 05:49 AM

How is what Israel doing terrorism??? First off they use a regular army the (IDF) which is clearly defined. Secondly they only act in response to attacks, except in the case of assasinations. Israel not only HAS THE RIGHT to act but they have THE DUTY for the sake of their people.

Liquor Dealer · 06-19-2003, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darkblack
Don't get me wrong I do no think one side is right and the other is wrong. Both sides are wrong and until one side takes the high road and stops retaliating terrorism with terrorism it will not end.

I agree with you to a point - I don't think ending a chance of retaliation will stop anything - I think when you know there will be no retaliation you are simply inviting the act. The only way to stop the terrorism in the Middle East is to end the support for it. As long as other Middle Eastern countries are open to political and economical blackmail - willing to finance the terrorists so long as the do it somewhere else it will not stop. Hamas would die, probably in a short time, if Saudi Arabia and others in the area quit paying them blackmail money (somehow the old quuote "millions for defense and not one cent for tribute" comes to mind) - The problem is that they are more afraid of the terrorists than Israel is! That's why they continue to pay - maybe since they have felt the terror themselves in Saudi Arabia they will clamp down on the cash flow.

crumbbum · 06-19-2003, 07:46 AM

Saudi Arabia is probably the biggest source of terrorism today- not only are they the main backers of Hamas, and not only did most of the 9/11 hijackers come from Saudi Arabia, and not only is Bin Laden and his ilk Saudi rich kids, but Saudi Arabia spends great sums supporting and spreading Wahabbist Islam- a sort of angry, get on the pulpit and rail against the West, pro-jihad nutcase form of Islam. It has become fairly dominant in many parts of the Muslim world, including in the US. There are a number of other strains of Islam, that really are peaceful, like Sufi Islam-
real religion after all is supposed to be introverted. People tend to have enough work to do on themselves, as opposed to converting the whole world (as various religions have dreamed of in the past).

That article I posted a little ways back in this thread. from the National Review, is an article by a Muslim talking about the current state of the Muslim world, terrorism, and what is behind it, and what is behind the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It is very informative, the guy after all knows what he is talking about. He used to live in Pakistan, but as we know Pakistan is getting full of extremists- people wanted to kill him and he had to flee. Please read and comment.

crumbbum · 06-19-2003, 08:03 AM

And BTW, as far as this "terrorism met with terrorism" argument goes, the IDF is not a terrorist organization. They don't target civilians, they have clearly defined rules of engagement, they avoid harming innocent people as much as is possible in their situation. If you take away all consequences of terrorism (I don't think there are enough at this point- the response to terror, as the US got right off the bat, needs to be greater than the terror itself- terrorism, if we are serious about stopping it, needs to be a net loss for those who would use it to advance political goals. If it was a losing tactic, they wouldn't use it), the terror would just multiply exponentially. What is really needed is zero-tolerance- no matter what your cause is, no matter what the situation, if you kill innocent people deliberately, you will lose, and it is the surest way NOT to achieve your goals.

And it needs to be said that Palestinian terrorism is not reactionary in it's origin- attacks happen when the IDF does nothing also. In fact, every time in the past there has been a cease-fire, or the IDF pulls out of an area, more attacks inevitably come from that area. The most recent example of the misguided "reaction" observation was that bus bombing in Jerusalem last week- it happened 2 days after a strike on Rantisi, one of the 2 head honchos of Hamas. Everyone assumed that the bus bombing happened in retaliation. But in fact, Israeli intelligence and Hamas themselves both said that it was not connected. These attacks take a long time to plan. They have to recruit the useful idiot to carry it out, brainwash him (this takes weeks), get the bomb, prepare the bomb, train the useful idiot, coordinate where the attack will be, arrange transportation, how to get past Israeli security, etc. The bus bombing was planned as a reaction to the AQABA SUMMIT. It would have happened even if they hadn't targeted Rantisi.

Unfortunately, by talking about a Palestinian state AFTER all this terrorism there in the past two years, I am afraid that it is demonstrating the terrorism (in the eyes of those who would use these tactics) as effective, thus encouraging it's further use not only against Israel, but against us and the rest of the free world. Not only is there an ideological connection, but even if there weren't, we are talking about the same methods- don't think these people aren't taking notes on each other. These things don't happen in a vacuum. People need to understand that no peace will ever be built on the deaths of innocent people, like that 7 year old girl who was in the car with her siblings and grandfather, targeted for death by Palestinian gunmen as they drove home from a Bat Mitzvah celebration. There is nothing in any way equivalent to that happening to Palestinians. Tolerating such disgusting acts will not bring peace, it will only ensure that these things continue to happen. The lack of consequence is seen as a green light.

Despite the fact that a majority of Palestinians support the terror, there are surely some that don't. These people can't speak out though, because in the past, dissenters have been branded "collaborators with Israel" and killed publicly as a warning to others. If someone (Israel, US) went in and totally wipe out the terrorists, the Palestinian Authority(an incarnation of the PLO), and actually set up a new infrastructure with new schools that didn't teach hate, a free press, etc., not only would said Palestinians probably breathe a sigh of relief, but in a few years (maybe many), after the society had been de-brainwashed, real peace could be made. But there is no way to make peace now- the only thing that can be done is to defeat the terrorists and those who support them.

crumbbum · 06-19-2003, 10:49 PM

In addendum, that is why I am against Palestinian statehood, at least in the "west bank" and Gaza, at this time, talk of it is only encouraging the terrorists.

opentocomments · 06-20-2003, 07:35 PM

Blow it to hell

Dont get me wrong i dont want people to die but if we blow the fuck out of it then what will they fight about

Its like 2 children who both want the same toy (gaza Jerusalem golem hights ect... almost all of palistine/isreal) the big brother (isreal) has his friends to help (USA and Other Counties) and the little brother has his friends who arnt nearly as strong (arab nations) so they will fight and fight but when some one takes the toy away what will they fight about?

edit; forgot the Forum was teal

crumbbum · 06-21-2003, 09:31 PM

Uh huh.... I don't think the conflict is just about land- if the Israelis lost a war against the arabs, they would be massacred, as happened to Jews in the past whenever they surrendered or were in any wy given over to Arab power. They fight because it is a matter of survival. The Palestinians, on the other hand, have based their self-identity around the struggle to destroy Israel. Did you actually read the thread?

Tophat665 · 06-21-2003, 10:47 PM

Oh did his feet, in ancient time, wark upon Engrand's pastules gleen...

There was a time when I thought that peace might be possible between the Israelis and Palestinians. There was a time that I thought it was not. The more I think about it, the less I care. Both sides have total committment to diametrically opposed positions, and only when that changes will the situation on the ground change.

crumbbum · 06-22-2003, 06:02 PM

You're right in that there can't be peace if both sides won't compromise. But in fact both sides are not totally inflexible- Israel has been trying since Oslo to make a peace agreement with the Palestinians, and at this point has even agreed to the creation of an (illegitimate) Palestinian state in the West bank and Gaza. In the framework of the Oslo accords, and in fact in every single peace agreement that there has been, the PA's only responsibility was to unequivocally end terrorism, to prevent it from within, to dismantle the groups. They have consistently refused, and continue to educate their young that one day they will destroy Israel. After all these years of brainwashing, their national identity is defined by the struggle to destroy Israel.

Israel has repeatedly shown itself eager to compromise for peace, and has offered many concessions, whereas the terrorism and murder of Israeli non-combatants has never ceased. There can't be peace if both sides won't compromise. The PLO charter includes in it the vow of struggle until the destruction of Israel, and has never been amended.

If both parties wanted peace, there would be peace. All this international diplomacy and whatnot wouldn't be necessary, there would just be peace, the parties would find a way. There won't be peace until those that are against it are defeated.

06-18-2003, 02:44 PM	#81 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	The use of child soldiers is a war crime. If a child is trying to throw a molotov cocktail into a tank, he is threatening the lives of the soldiers. Why is a child on a battlefield? What would you do, as a soldier, if a crowd of screaming children surrounded you, and began pelting you with fist sized rocks? I'm sure you'd say "stop", but then your nose would get broken. Maybe your knees would hit next. When the next one hit you in the side of the head, and suddenly you are seeing double, realizing that you are about to die. What would you do? A further question. If you were a wanted man, and you knew that there people out who were trying to kill you, what would you do? You would run, or hide out. What about your family? If you loved your kids, what would you tell them to do if you knew you were being targeted? I know that if it was me, and i loved my kids, I would make sure there were as far from me as possible. Instead, Palestinian terrorists surround themselves with as many women and kids as possible, so that when such people are unintentionally killed, people like you fall for it hook, line and sinker. The use of human shields is a war crime. In the Gulf war, Saddam hid weapons and soldiers in hospitals, schools, and Red Cross depots. Whose fault is it if they are targeted? If it is, as you say, "tanks against kids", why is it that 2/3 of Israelis that have been killed are civilian non-combatants, whereas only 10% of Palestinian casualties are? Palestinian terrorists deliberately target and murder innocent people, as many as possible. In the fight against terrorism, some Palestinian civilians are killed. The terrorists choose to hide in urban areas, surrounded by people. I'd be curious as to how you would handle it. If this person really read this whole thread, as they claim, and they really believe what they are saying, I do not believe that they are motivated by compassion for suffering people. To be so willfully ignorant, to pay such selective attention to reality, this person must not be motivated by compassion, but by loathing of the state of Israel, or of Jews. Believe it or not, Sun-Tzu, I do care about the suffering on the Palestinian side as well. I think it is disgusting that they have been kept in squallid refugee camps for 55 years. As I posted earlier, Israel made an effort at one point to build them better living accomodations, to improve the humanitarian situation, and of course the Arab countries refused. This is because Palestinian suffering has been and continues to be exploited. I would like this conflict to end as soon as possible, to end the suffering of both parties. I do not want things to happen that would increase the violence or reinforce the things that are the real sources of the conflict. I have already articulated, as has the author of the article I posted above from the National Review, what keeps this conflict going. Whoever, after reading this whole thread, could post such an ignorant statement, is not in any way serious about or motivated by a desire for peace. The anti-Israel religious Jews are in fact still Zionists- they believe very strongly that Jews have a right to the land. They are in opposition to a secular state of Israel. They believe that the only Jewish country on that land should be a religious society, which they think will be established with the coming of the messiah. They still however, pray three times a day for the "return to Zion". Don't make the mistake of confusing this with something else. They just don't believe in any secular Israel. They are also a tiny minority among religious Jews. If there is anyone else still reading this thread, I would really appreciate if someone would acknowledge that I am making some valid points here. I don't care if anyone agrees with my conclusions, but it is exhausting debating when the other party is choosing willful ignorance, or paying selective attention to information I've posted. It is pointless, as I'm coming to realize, to try to reason with these kinds of statements as that last post. I hope someone reading the thread at least has found some things I've posted thought provoking. Such sentiment makes me fearful for the future of the world I live in. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies. Last edited by crumbbum; 06-18-2003 at 02:49 PM..

06-18-2003, 05:39 PM	#83 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	I'd like to add that it isn't a war against children, the very idea of which is ludicrous- it is a war against terrorists who make bombs, and pack them with NAILS DIPPED IN RAT POISON and detonate them among as many innocent people, often specifically kids, as possible. It is a war against people who send suicide bombers, and after the initial blast, remote control bombs blow up at exits of areas, to kill those who try to escape. It is a war against terrorists that shoot at the ambulance teams that arrive to try and save the wounded, Arab and Jew. Mercy to the cruel perpetuates cruelty to the merciful. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

06-18-2003, 08:35 PM	#86 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	On the chance that you are simply honestly misinformed, you should know that no one is kicking Palestinians out of their land. On the contrary, Israel in the Oslo process was falling over itself in it's attempt to withdraw from the territories. That's part of why they continued to make concessions even when the Palestinians were breaking every agreement made with them. No one is kicking them out of anywhere, and the current government of Israel even now supports a Palestinian state. The only time Palestinians lost their homes was in the 1948 war, when 67% fled as the war started, thinking they could come back after the Jews were wiped out (they weren't), and 33% who were evacuated from their homes in the course of the war when their village was a military threat (many of the arab villages were forward bases for the arab armies, and as arab positions, when they were in locations that were a serious military threat the Israelis seized the area in order to defend themselves. The most obvious example would be some of the arab villages in the galilee. No one was expelled for the purpose of stealing, the Jews were trying to defend themselves from attack by 5 armies, and needed secure borders. With that exception, the Palestinian arabs have not and are not being expelled from their land in any way, though with a lot of the propaganda floating around you'd think that they were. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

06-18-2003, 08:53 PM	#87 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	And actually, in addition to the huge sums of money poured in by the EU and whatnot, the US does in fact give a lot ofmoney to them as well (though not as much as Israel). In terms of military aid, this is mostly because Israel is surrounded by enemies who have tried in the past and will likely try again in the future to destroy Israel. No one is trying to destroy the Palestinians at all. Military aid to them is not only not needed, but would be used to kill more civilians. Actually, I read recently that Bush authorized something like 200 million dollars to be given to the new Palestinian security force. The security force created during the Oslo accords, which Israel armed, never fought terrorism as was it's stated purpose- in fact, the same guns were turned on Israelis when most of the police officers participated in terrorist attacks against Israel. It has yet to be seen whether this time things will be any different. I hope that my government isn't funding the murder of civilians. But anyway, the Palestinians get plenty of money. Unfortunately, most of it is diverted to terror groups and/or skimmed off the top by the corrupt Palestinian leaders (Arafat has a personal fortune of over 300 million), while the people nearly starve. This is done deliberately, to make it look like Israel is responsible for the humanitarian conditions that result. The suffering of the Palestinians has been exploited all along for political ends. They are not only the only refugees in history never to be repatriated anywhere after 55 years, but they also remain in the same squallid camps. Like I said above, when Israel offered to build them better places to live, the arab countries refused. If the Palestinians weren't suffering, Arafat and the Palestinian leadership wouldn't be able to blame Israel for all of their problems. It's pretty sick. In almost every area (politics, schools, tactics, media) you will see what little regard for human life the Arab leaders have. It is no coincidence that the Arab Middle East is home to the most atrocious human rights abuses in the world (honor killings, gruesome capital punishment, murder of dissidents, female circumcision, etc.). __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

06-18-2003, 09:29 PM	#88 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	Just checked, actually, the sum was 300 million. Sorry. Oh, and the new Palestinian Prime Minister Abbas has invited Hamas and Islamic Jihad to join the leadership. Peace is on the way! __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

06-18-2003, 06:53 PM	#84 (permalink)
Darkblack Banned Location: Pennsytuckia	ok. what you people don't understand is that these people are being chased out of their homes and off their land at gun point. They don't have tanks and helicopters. They have shit with nails in it to strap to themselves as a weapon. We are not giving them money to fight a war but we are Israel. If it was the YOU being pushed off your land and being told that it is not your land anymore that it belongs to the some other religion or group of people would you not fight for it? If they had a lot of money to buy weapons buy you only had homemade weapons would you fight? If you were being told that what you were doing is terrorism but what the other side is doing is right would you stop and say oh ok ill just move...to where? please.

06-18-2003, 11:24 PM	#89 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	What happens when you lose 4 wars in 25 years? You resort to Terrorism. Fucking cowards. I say we just let Israel loose on them (Arabs as a whole), they've been holding back for way to long. It'd be nice to see them Tactically nuke the Kaa'ba. By the way anyone else find it funny how Allah used to be the moon god? The Kaa'ba used to be filled with Statues to other gods, Muhammed wasn't even the first one to worship Allah. Edited for content __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. Last edited by Mojo_PeiPei; 06-18-2003 at 11:46 PM..

06-19-2003, 04:07 AM	#90 (permalink)
George W Bush Tilted Location: The Great Lone Star State	Israel is a Jewish word not arab. It says Israel on pages 3, 78, and 234 of my Bible; nuff said. __________________ "Rarely is the question asked: is our children learning" "You teach a child to read and he or her will be able to pass a literacy test."

06-19-2003, 04:44 AM	#91 (permalink)
Darkblack Banned Location: Pennsytuckia	lol and you keep using your bible to dictate whos land is whos. funny.

06-19-2003, 05:15 AM	#92 (permalink)
Darkblack Banned Location: Pennsytuckia	Don't get me wrong I do no think one side is right and the other is wrong. Both sides are wrong and until one side takes the high road and stops retaliating terrorism with terrorism it will not end.

06-19-2003, 05:49 AM	#93 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	How is what Israel doing terrorism??? First off they use a regular army the (IDF) which is clearly defined. Secondly they only act in response to attacks, except in the case of assasinations. Israel not only HAS THE RIGHT to act but they have THE DUTY for the sake of their people. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

06-19-2003, 07:46 AM	#95 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	Saudi Arabia is probably the biggest source of terrorism today- not only are they the main backers of Hamas, and not only did most of the 9/11 hijackers come from Saudi Arabia, and not only is Bin Laden and his ilk Saudi rich kids, but Saudi Arabia spends great sums supporting and spreading Wahabbist Islam- a sort of angry, get on the pulpit and rail against the West, pro-jihad nutcase form of Islam. It has become fairly dominant in many parts of the Muslim world, including in the US. There are a number of other strains of Islam, that really are peaceful, like Sufi Islam- real religion after all is supposed to be introverted. People tend to have enough work to do on themselves, as opposed to converting the whole world (as various religions have dreamed of in the past). That article I posted a little ways back in this thread. from the National Review, is an article by a Muslim talking about the current state of the Muslim world, terrorism, and what is behind it, and what is behind the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It is very informative, the guy after all knows what he is talking about. He used to live in Pakistan, but as we know Pakistan is getting full of extremists- people wanted to kill him and he had to flee. Please read and comment. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

06-19-2003, 08:03 AM	#96 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	And BTW, as far as this "terrorism met with terrorism" argument goes, the IDF is not a terrorist organization. They don't target civilians, they have clearly defined rules of engagement, they avoid harming innocent people as much as is possible in their situation. If you take away all consequences of terrorism (I don't think there are enough at this point- the response to terror, as the US got right off the bat, needs to be greater than the terror itself- terrorism, if we are serious about stopping it, needs to be a net loss for those who would use it to advance political goals. If it was a losing tactic, they wouldn't use it), the terror would just multiply exponentially. What is really needed is zero-tolerance- no matter what your cause is, no matter what the situation, if you kill innocent people deliberately, you will lose, and it is the surest way NOT to achieve your goals. And it needs to be said that Palestinian terrorism is not reactionary in it's origin- attacks happen when the IDF does nothing also. In fact, every time in the past there has been a cease-fire, or the IDF pulls out of an area, more attacks inevitably come from that area. The most recent example of the misguided "reaction" observation was that bus bombing in Jerusalem last week- it happened 2 days after a strike on Rantisi, one of the 2 head honchos of Hamas. Everyone assumed that the bus bombing happened in retaliation. But in fact, Israeli intelligence and Hamas themselves both said that it was not connected. These attacks take a long time to plan. They have to recruit the useful idiot to carry it out, brainwash him (this takes weeks), get the bomb, prepare the bomb, train the useful idiot, coordinate where the attack will be, arrange transportation, how to get past Israeli security, etc. The bus bombing was planned as a reaction to the AQABA SUMMIT. It would have happened even if they hadn't targeted Rantisi. Unfortunately, by talking about a Palestinian state AFTER all this terrorism there in the past two years, I am afraid that it is demonstrating the terrorism (in the eyes of those who would use these tactics) as effective, thus encouraging it's further use not only against Israel, but against us and the rest of the free world. Not only is there an ideological connection, but even if there weren't, we are talking about the same methods- don't think these people aren't taking notes on each other. These things don't happen in a vacuum. People need to understand that no peace will ever be built on the deaths of innocent people, like that 7 year old girl who was in the car with her siblings and grandfather, targeted for death by Palestinian gunmen as they drove home from a Bat Mitzvah celebration. There is nothing in any way equivalent to that happening to Palestinians. Tolerating such disgusting acts will not bring peace, it will only ensure that these things continue to happen. The lack of consequence is seen as a green light. Despite the fact that a majority of Palestinians support the terror, there are surely some that don't. These people can't speak out though, because in the past, dissenters have been branded "collaborators with Israel" and killed publicly as a warning to others. If someone (Israel, US) went in and totally wipe out the terrorists, the Palestinian Authority(an incarnation of the PLO), and actually set up a new infrastructure with new schools that didn't teach hate, a free press, etc., not only would said Palestinians probably breathe a sigh of relief, but in a few years (maybe many), after the society had been de-brainwashed, real peace could be made. But there is no way to make peace now- the only thing that can be done is to defeat the terrorists and those who support them. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

06-19-2003, 10:49 PM	#97 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	In addendum, that is why I am against Palestinian statehood, at least in the "west bank" and Gaza, at this time, talk of it is only encouraging the terrorists. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

06-20-2003, 07:35 PM	#98 (permalink)
opentocomments Psycho Location: St. Louis	Blow it to hell Dont get me wrong i dont want people to die but if we blow the fuck out of it then what will they fight about Its like 2 children who both want the same toy (gaza Jerusalem golem hights ect... almost all of palistine/isreal) the big brother (isreal) has his friends to help (USA and Other Counties) and the little brother has his friends who arnt nearly as strong (arab nations) so they will fight and fight but when some one takes the toy away what will they fight about? edit; forgot the Forum was teal __________________ How do we know that the sky is not green and we are all color-blind? Last edited by opentocomments; 06-20-2003 at 07:38 PM..

06-21-2003, 09:31 PM	#99 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	Uh huh.... I don't think the conflict is just about land- if the Israelis lost a war against the arabs, they would be massacred, as happened to Jews in the past whenever they surrendered or were in any wy given over to Arab power. They fight because it is a matter of survival. The Palestinians, on the other hand, have based their self-identity around the struggle to destroy Israel. Did you actually read the thread? __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.

06-21-2003, 10:47 PM	#100 (permalink)
Tophat665 Minion of the scaléd ones Location: Northeast Jesusland	Oh did his feet, in ancient time, wark upon Engrand's pastules gleen... There was a time when I thought that peace might be possible between the Israelis and Palestinians. There was a time that I thought it was not. The more I think about it, the less I care. Both sides have total committment to diametrically opposed positions, and only when that changes will the situation on the ground change. __________________ Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

06-22-2003, 06:02 PM	#101 (permalink)
crumbbum Crazy Location: CT,NYC,NJ(have been all over)	You're right in that there can't be peace if both sides won't compromise. But in fact both sides are not totally inflexible- Israel has been trying since Oslo to make a peace agreement with the Palestinians, and at this point has even agreed to the creation of an (illegitimate) Palestinian state in the West bank and Gaza. In the framework of the Oslo accords, and in fact in every single peace agreement that there has been, the PA's only responsibility was to unequivocally end terrorism, to prevent it from within, to dismantle the groups. They have consistently refused, and continue to educate their young that one day they will destroy Israel. After all these years of brainwashing, their national identity is defined by the struggle to destroy Israel. Israel has repeatedly shown itself eager to compromise for peace, and has offered many concessions, whereas the terrorism and murder of Israeli non-combatants has never ceased. There can't be peace if both sides won't compromise. The PLO charter includes in it the vow of struggle until the destruction of Israel, and has never been amended. If both parties wanted peace, there would be peace. All this international diplomacy and whatnot wouldn't be necessary, there would just be peace, the parties would find a way. There won't be peace until those that are against it are defeated. __________________ Truth is peace. We are all souls in bodies.