stevo

I just happened upon this guys blog today. This entry is a long one so I've presented the intro, and what I see as the crux of the entry. Please feel free to follow the link and read the entire article. http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/20...r-another.html Why is it that a European has a better grasp on the problems facing america than most americans? Why is it there are so many that just don't believe this? Is it because of a hatred for bush and his policies? Is it blissful ignorance? or is it just plain disbelief that an entire group of people want us dead just for being who we are?
I see it enough, the left whitewashing the vitrol spewed from leaders in the muslim world. The calls for the anahilation of israel. calls for "true" believers to fight everything western - the duty to kill an american today. Just yesterday the saudi interior minister blamed the west for terrorism in a speech calling to fight extremists http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1283 - In a speech about fighting extremism WE are the enemy! - But this thread is not about anything said by any one person, but the fact that most would rather make excuses and reasons why we aren't headed for a clash of civilisations than to accept that we have a problem and confront the threat head on.

They hated the west before israel existed.
They hated the west before we went into kuwait.
They hated the west before we went into afghanistan.
They hated the west before we went into iraq.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

host

Should we kill them all, or put them in camps now to head off a clash of civilisations? I'll leave it to the curious to find out who the president and founder of memritv.org is, and his background.

Here's an excerpt from a "piece", written today by one of the two "contributors" to gatesofvienna.blogspot.com:
.....and here's an excerpt from the other "constibutor" to gatesofvienna.blogspot.com
....stevo, we are what we read....and you've been favorably impressed enough by the "stuff" coming from those two sites to frame a thread here around it.

Sounds like you've bought into this nonsense, from "our leader", who the majority of us have concluded, is on the "fringe":

Ustwo

The answer is obvious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UarzT2Qs3FY

I read suras 2-9 again this morning. Its pretty fucked up in parts..

Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

You will fight for Allah, like it or not.

3:118 O ye who believe! Take not for intimates others than your own folk, who would spare no pains to ruin you; they love to hamper you. Hatred is revealed by (the utterance of) their mouths, but that which their breasts hide is greater. We have made plain for you the revelations if ye will understand.

Do not trust non-musslims.

4:74 Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.

Allah will reward those who fight for him.

4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

Have no unbeliver friends, kill the unbelievers.

4:160 Because of the wrongdoing of the Jews We forbade them good things which were (before) made lawful unto them, and because of their much hindering from Allah's way,

Jews are screwed because of their wrong doings.

5:45 And We prescribed for them therein: The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation. But whoso forgoeth it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are wrong-doers.

An eye for an eye etc, if you don't follow allah's laws (non-musslim) you are a wrong doer.

5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

Christians go to hell.

5:73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

A curse on those who believe in the trinity (Christians)

8:16 Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless manoeuvring for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end.

To retreat from disbelievers is to be condemned to hell.

8:17 Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him. Lo! Allah is Hearer, Knower.

When a musslim slays a non-believer, it is really allah doing the killing.

8:65 O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence.

Fight the non-belivers because they are stupid.

8:67 It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land. Ye desire the lure of this world and Allah desireth (for you) the Hereafter, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

Make sure you kill a lot of people before you take over.

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Kill non-believers unless they convert.

9:29 Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

Fight Christians and Jews until they pay you tribute.

9:31 They have taken as lords beside Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only One God. There is no God save Him. Be He Glorified from all that they ascribe as partner (unto Him)!

More anti-Jewish anti-Christian verse

9:33 He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.

Islam will prevail over all religions.

9:34 O ye who believe! Lo! many of the (Jewish) rabbis and the (Christian) monks devour the wealth of mankind wantonly and debar (men) from the way of Allah. They who hoard up gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah, unto them give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom,

Allah is going to get those rich rabbis and monks.

9:39 If ye go not forth He will afflict you with a painful doom, and will choose instead of you a folk other than you. Ye cannot harm Him at all. Allah is Able to do all things.

If you dont' fight, Allah will curse you with a painful doom.

9:42 Had it been a near adventure and an easy journey they had followed thee, but the distance seemed too far for them. Yet will they swear by Allah (saying): If we had been able we would surely have set out with you. They destroy their souls, and Allah knoweth that they verily are liars.

People who say they couldnt' fight for allah are liars.

9:123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

Fight the disbelievers near you ... (well you can figure this one out)

Edit: This is but a taste, there is so much more.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

stevo

nicely done host. You've managed to say nothing yet again.

The question is: Why don't you believe we are at war with islamic fasicsts?

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

Ustwo

The Bush tie in though was masterful.

I'd not be surprised to find a quote about Bush in the Koran.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

stevo

What does it matter about memritv.org? how does the founder and president equate into the matter at hand? I pasted an excerpt from the transcript. A transcript is a printed version of actual words that came out of an actual person's mouth. how does the founder or president of an organization change words that someone spoke?

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

host

stevo, your "message" is promoted by the usual "suspects". It is ignorance driven myopic, Horowitz drivel:

Horowitz's http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...e.asp?ID=24274
"features" a symposium with your : "fjordman"

....to arrive to the point where your opinion brings you, denial of boxcar loads of context is required.

A wave of revulsion comes over me, when I see the US president warmly greeting, kissing, and holding the hand of the Saudi despot, as he guides that symbol of repression and theft of the national Saudi wealth off to a private meeting at the Crawford ranch....I cannot imagine how a muslim in the middle east reacts to that spectacle.
<center><img src="http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:NcOGxicvgScWDM:http://www.hermes-press.com/bush_saudi7.jpg"></center>
The Israeli people elected LEHI assassins of a UN diplomat as their prime ministers:
....and the examples go on....and on. stevo, it would be no small breakthrough if we were willing to recognize that we are paying for the sins of our grandfathers, but it is worse than that....our own government repeats and perpetuates these sins, and we align with former colonial powers, Britain for example, to further aggravate the historical grievances in Iraq, Afghanistan, and in Pakistan.

The mixture of right wing media bashing, Bozell/Horowitz propaganda, and western imperialism, combined with the historical denial that is required to embrace the Bush policies, and the commitment to division that you've conveyed in your OP is revolting to my sensiblilities. It offers brute force as the "obvious" solution to a political situation rooted in a history of brute force justified by religious prejudice and colonialism.

There is no "moral high ground" to justify the conduct on either side. We in the US have suffered the tragedy of allowing what our government told us was a plot by 19 young suicide terrorists, directed by a former CIA trained and supplied, Afghan freedom fighter, a Saudi; against two building complexes on our soil, to eclipse all of our past efforts to turn away from our legacy of the Mossadegh coup and the backing of dictators like Saddam, and monarchists, like the Saudi princes.

There is no moral justification for your position, stevo. My advice to you is that you make an effort to accept that this is so.....

stevo

who said brute force is the "obvious" solution? Who suggested concentration camps and genocide? I know I didn't. What I meant by confront the threat head on, was not to go around gathering up muslims and put them into ovens, nor was it to go around torching mosques or whatever ideas you think I have. What I meant by confront head on is that we can't back down. All we seem to be doing today is backing down. First we need to recongnize there is a threat, then we need to do something about it.

From what I gathered from your last post is that you believe we are not at war with islamofascists because bush likes it friendly where there are oil interests. I guess you could have just said that.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

host

I believe that we are winning "no hearts and minds". Our foreign policy is meant to terroize our own residents by exaggerating "foreign threats". There is not such thing as Islamic Fascism....but there is our pretzeldent proclaiming that "they are the enemy".

Our greatest "threat" is the domestic terrorism by our leaders against us, as they manipulate a transfer of power and authority from us...to them. Islamic Fascists are an official "bogeyman", intended to scare the shit out of us, so we quickly and gladly give "our leaders" authority to unaccountably do whatever they want to.

The "message" in your OP meshes nicely with the message of the current US administration. There is more to it than oil. Why would any muslim look kindly or trustingly on anyone in our government. If Ron Suskind is correct, Bush named armed conflict as the replacement for middle east diplomacy, just ten days into his administration. The US has always backed "strong men", autocrats in the M.E., and the european colonialists governments, and the right wing terrorist founded Likud.

Whether you recognize it or admit it, the current US policy is one of control by brute force. What do you think the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, in each case described as neccessary because one man in each country needed to be killed or captured, were about, if not execution of brute force projection?

I said nothing about ovens or concentration camps. I described your opinion alignment as one of either killing or detaining. There is no evidence that the US policy is anything other than a policy of brute force projection, whether it is used to force an agreement that can be labelled "diplomatic", or to control a geographic area....for military strategic advantage or closer control of natural resources. Kill or detain or set up a puppet government....what else do you perceive that our government is offering to muslims, anywhere?

As long as the Saudi princes, with support of the US defense umbrella, and strongmen like Mubarak in Egypt, continue in power, how do you propose that we "win hearts and minds". We won't. That leaves killing them or detaining them, as our only recourse to their legitimate objection to our presence in their countryies, and by extension, to our existence.

roachboy

the only thing this thread does so far as i am concerned is to demonstrate the argument i have been making from time to time to link the american extreme right in all its bushregalia to neofascism in europe.

in earlier versions, i assumed that the far right types here did not know what neofascism is so the arguments seemed not to register.

now, stevo, you simply reproduce information from one as if it was not a problem, demonstrating by doing so that the explicitly racist positions of these organizations correspond to your own.

the american right has been able to dodge to some extent the racism of their arguments--but once you start finding correlations in western european neofascist materials, any such dodge goes out the window---these organizations are explicitly racist, and their racism is explicitly anti-arab. period.
in western europe, the issue of immigration and that of anti-islamic xenophobia/racism are directly linked--in the states, for sociological reasons, they are separated..that's about it, so far as differences are concerned.

it is the same repugnant logic, with the same repugnant outcomes.


the rest of what i could say would be a syllogism.
work it out for yourself.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Ustwo

I see.

If you view Islam in its current form as a threat to Western Civilization you are a racist and a fascist.

I suppose the only non-racist thing to do is blame ourselves (the west) for all the issues at hand, much like the Saudi minister.

The difference between your beloved neo-fascists in Europe and us 'far right' types is that we don't blame this on any race issues, but on a culture that has turned its religion into a death cult. I will not deny that there are racial differences involved, but those can not be helped based on geography and the original extent of the muslim invasions.

Because some neo-fascists see arabs as a problem, does not in itself mean anyone who sees a problem with Islam is a fascist them self.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

stevo

I was along the lines of typing the same thing about an hour ago. I got as far as "I see." When the phone rang and I had to get back to work.

I know why host doesn't think we're in a war against islamofascists, because he doesn't think they exist. Don't know about roach, or anyone else.

If you add roach and hosts posts together. The current administration is racist.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

pig

stevo:

the authors of that blog are in Virginia and somewhere else in the Blue Ridge Mountains. One of them does have a quote by Goering in his "about me" bit. Thought that was interesting.

As far as the rest goes, I don't think one can state that there isn't some cultural clash going on - but I don't particularly give a damn if an actual terrorist or fundamentalist understands me or what I concieve America to be and/or be capable of being. Fuck 'em. I'm not particulary interested in lowering myself to the level of that mentality in order to score points with people to whom I am ideologically opposed.

We're showing a pretty good bit of military aggression currently; I don't really see fundamentalist Islamic and terrorist organizations backing down. I think one could make an argument that we've accerbated the problem. My guess is that any postive affect we could have had via application of our military would have been best served by focussed activity in Afganistan; I feel fairly certain that these organizations are not impressed by the horseshit going on in Iraq.

__________________
You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

roachboy

not exactly.
it is simpler than that.
i'll say this directly once.


1. you have no coherent view of islam.

in case you missed that, let me say it another way:
you have no coherent view of islam.
you have nothing remotely like a coherent view of islam.
you have your paranoid fantasy that you substitute for a coherent view.
every fascist-style nationalism is motivated by fear of some persecuting Other.


2. to repeat:

your politics would be squarely neofascist were you saying the same crap in a western european context.
but you say them in the states, where the political spectrum was such that right wing extremist arguments were mainstream conservative arguments.
but that changes nothing.

frankly, i would almost prefer it if you were a member of such an organization (like the front national) simply because most western european neofascist organizations are at least honest about the racist underpinnings of their arguments.



and it really doesn't matter if you do not like the category neofascist.
i mean who would?
but it fits like a glove over what you post on the topic of islam.
so deal with it.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

ubertuber

Ustwo and stevo, you only qualify your opinions (by saying things like "in its current form") when feel you have to. In fact, I'm not sure I'd need 2 hands to count the instances that you didn't paint with the broadest brush possible. Far more common are gloating comments along the lines of "this is a brutal primitive religion that only understands force".

The most reason you've provided so far that your views are not racist is that Islamism isn't a race. So you're culturist or religionist? I'm not sure that I see much redemption as long as you aren't willing to see any nuance or variation in a thing that is made up of hundreds of millions of people who each have their own practices, experiences, and priorities. Is that sort of perception not appropriate here? I think it is, particularly in terms of finding solutions or living in a world with people who are of differing values. I'm still waiting for a defense of your generalization of Islam as a monolithic feature, or as the single most defining feature of its practicioners. If that isn't an "ism" I don't know what is.

So whether or not your opening article is any good or of any truth, I don't see the relevance of your views to mine, let alone the real world in which we live.

By the way, this shocked the hell out of me:

I didn't know you had it in you, roachboy.

(I'm talking about the caps key)

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

matthew330

^^meltdown?^^

I'm still getting it roach...could you please try one more time to simplify things for me

Ustwo

This is a gross generalization Uber. A cultural trend does not mean everyone in a culture follows it, approves of it, or supports it. I don't know what percentage of the Islamic world would qualify as an 'Islamofacist' but they have come to represent modern Islam, like it or not.

Stevo and I never even suggested that they are ALL like that, or that even every Islamic population is like that, but currently the ones that are, and there are millions of them, and they control several governments, are a threat to the progress as we see it and the Western World as a whole.

I'm giong to Goodwin this hoping you get the point. Not every german was a nazi, not every german supported them, some even fought them, but at the end of the day we still had to fight the germans as they were a threat to freedom in Europe.

I figured that sort of thing should be self evident and am rather annoyed I need to explain it. Do you really think Stevo and I are that simplistic in vision?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

inkriminator

UsTwo, how do you fight against an ideology that is not contained within a nation-state?

stevo

So.....you don't believe we are in a war with islamofascists because you aren't a racist? Is that what I'm hearing?

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

Seaver

So those that realized that Germany, Italy, and Japan were threats in the 1930s were racist... therefore should have be ignored and shunned. Those that saw the spread of Communism as a threat to global stability were regionalists and culturalists... therefore should have been ignored and shunned.

That argument does not hold water in reality. Prove us wrong by somehow getting them to say they no longer want the West and Israel to be whiped off the map. Prove us wrong by somehow getting them to stop killing innocent civilians purposefully.

Until then closing your eyes and ears screaming "Racist!" does not work.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

roachboy

this is hilarious, folks.
look, there are three main problems with this particular thread:

1. the source material cited in the op comes from a racist blog and contains material from a neofascist source in norway.
did you actually chase any of the links?
did you actually look at this material in context?
this material is to an actual analysis of islam--in any manner--as the protocols of the elders of zion are to judaism or some document from white aryan resistance would be to african-americans.


i would think that even the house far right people would be a little wary of biting explicitly racist material and presenting it as other than it is because it resonates with them if they want their positions about islam to not simply be laughed at.

2. it follows that you should be concerned at the tightness of the fit between your particular rationalizations of hysteria directed at your fantasy islam and those of these groups in western europe. the problem this fit raises concerns the nature of *your* politics.
it says volumes about *your* politics, even as the infotainment in the op says almost nothing coherent about islam.

3. it seems that the conventional rightwing pseduo-wisdom would have it that the term "islamofascism" has a single coherent referent beyond "entities that the bush administration deems functional for justifying its policies"--which it doesnt--and further that imputing this term to groups running about the the imagination of conservatives (as defined by their terminology) means that there can be no ideological problems with conservative positions that themselves move closer and closer to those of actually existing neofascist organizations in the world--groups that are afriad of the same things the american right is, groups that use their racist nationalism to ward off a hallucinatory fear of "being invaded" or being rendered "impure" by excess contact with islam.


beyond this, the illusion the house far rightwing set seems to share that it and it alone is aware of a Real Threat--even though that threat is entirely a function of its own hysterical nationalist discourse--and that any critique of that hysterical discourse amounts to abdication of Vigiliance in the face of a coming Race War----this is the stuff of any number of tiny far rightwing groups that spend time preparing for helter skelter by stockpiling guns, ammo and canned goods in their basements preparing for the Race War.

personally, i think this turn in conservativeland back to the huntington thesis and its racist correlates *does* react to a coming cataclysm--that cataclysm is november's elections and the problem is the possibility of their actually being consequences that attend the systematic dishonesty and incompetence of the bush administration and its rightwing lackies in congress--THAT is the problem those few supporters of the bush administration are facing--and to "deal with it" you are retreating into a rightwing extremist fantasyland, one that enables you to dress yourselves up as martyrs or prophets....which makes of the turn little more than narcissistic delerium.




one other note: i make these comments in this thread.
i did not make them in the thread ustwo started at almost the same time biting quotes from john quincy adams and churchill that is seemingly about referencing famous dead people who also knew nothing about islam as if their ignorance justified contemporary ignorance.

that thread is not problematic in the way this one is.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

stevo

Yes I did. I'd appreciate it if you would cite some of the passages from the blog, in context, that you see as racist. If you would.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

host

c'mon stevo, what possible difference would anything pointed out to you, by anyone who disagrees with you, make....as far as influencing you to alter your opinions.... i.e., look how far you've had to dig to reinforce your belief system... <b>yer reduced to posting "fringe stuff".... by fjordman</b>
fjordman ????...a guy fomenting racial division by blogging about the growing trend of rapes by Somalis, of Swedish women?
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/12...in-sweden.html
<img src="http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1949/552/1600/NYHETER-17s09-09valdtakt-512.jpg">
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/12...-magazine.html

Boys....even if I agreed with your opinions....I don't, obviously....
it would be difficult for me not to consider the strong words of criticism of what amounts to a failed policy, a failed prosecution of a "war" that the pretzeldent claimed, weeks ago, to be "war against Islamic fascists". Doesn't that phrase sound silly to you? Here are the recent remarks, and three instances of references to "impeachment", between 2004 qnd 2006, of Reagan's NSA chief, retired Lt. Gen. Odom:

....and stevo....where is the coverage of Gen. Odom's three years of anti-Bush policy comments.....by the "liberal media" that you, Ustwo, Brent Bozell, and now, your "fjordman", constantly complain about the existence of?
<b>So....yesterday, you resort to posting the rantings of the racist Norwegian, "fjordman".....what will you come up with tomorrow, to take our attention, and of course, yours....from any contemplation of the validity and implications of what Lt. Gen. Odom (retired), has been speaking about for three years? Keep electing folks who prevent Odom from testifying before any bipartisan congressional committees, and instead, offer up your "fjordman"! </b>

Ustwo

host we don't have to dig deeper than CNN's headline, this was just ONE example. See the Cartoon riots for an example.


Must you try to tie EVERY post you make to Bush? I think you have a crush on him. Oh and 'pretzeldent' is a new one for me. I think I finally figured out why you never post anything outside of politics (unless it has to do with the politics board). Its very hard to tie 'my parents are getting a divorce' to 'Bush is evil', but I think you of all people could manage.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

stevo

c'mon host. I get accusations I'm a racist because I say I agree with this article from this blog and so I ask for some passages to be cited, in context, to support that claim. Now I know I didn't ask you personally to do it, but I figured my invitation was open to all. Now you come along and you post a picture of a girl that was raped and beaten by a gang of young muslims in norway as your proof that this is a racist blog? Did I get that right???? I did notice that the other articles you posted were not from the blog in question, so if you would be so kind...

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

host

The last time that you went down the <b>"you never post anything outside politics"</b>, "road", as a substitution for an actual rebuttal of my comments, was here:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...=107387&page=2

<b>Even though I posted the following, later....in response, here you go again.....why? Are you posting a belief that my arguments somehow have less "weight" or validity, because they come from me.....someone who you have determined....does not post "enough", on other forums, whatever that means?????</b>

stevo

nice threadjack, host. There is a PM function. sheesh.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

host

I've had enough of it, stevo. The intent of the <b>"you never post anything outside politics"</b> comment, was a first step in baiting the mods into closing this thread. It worked when he "went down that road" in the <b> Bush & Blair Knew & Both Went on Vacation; Is the Code Red Terror Alert Legitimate?</b>, thread. I want that tactic to stop. The fact that he is still here....still doing it....speaks volumes.

Now....please review what I posted:
....neither I, nor roachboy, accused you of being a racist. I'm saying that you are posting the rantings of an extermist...that "fjordman" came to your attention via propaganda "instruments", such as Horowitz's FrontpageMag, or via LGF, or some such site. There is a reason for that.....the intent is to shift the attention of those receptive to the "at war with Islamic fascists" message of Mr. Bush & co., away from actual discussion of the entire policy, and it's validity and effectiveness. Presumably, that would feature examination and response to what Lt. Gen. Odom keeps on saying....and "fjordman" would not even be noticed, because he isn't relevant to what we should be discussing in the U.S., and he is obviously, in my example...race baiting in Sweden, and using Brent Bozell's unfounded criticism of "the media", to get it done.

pan6467

Stevo he does have a point UsTwo did bait him and jacked the thread first with a personal attack. Host was just defending himself.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

stevo

You've already answered my question, host. You don't think we're in a war with islamofascists because you don't think islamofascism exists. Ok. I'd like to hear why others don't think we're at war with islamofascists.
Perhaps the effectiveness of the policy isn't as strong because there are a great deal of people who don't think islamofascists exist or don't think we're at war with them. I guaruntee you that if we had 100% of this country behind the effort we'd have all but won by now.

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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

host

stevo, your "backdoor" accusation; that "we", the "great deal of people who don't think islamofascists exist" have kept the US from having "won by now", is countered by the assessments of, among many others....including 18 retired generals, and Rep. Murtha, those of Lt. Gen. Odom, as recently as ten days ago. Did you even read them, or watch the videos at the links that I provided.

Your accusation is not only counter to the reported facts, it is a "cheap shot", IMO. I expect more from you, than that, or quotes from the blogger, "fjordman", to back an argument that you assert, makes the justification of the loss of 3000 of our troops, now, in Iraq, "so obvious".

Ustwo

host you neglected to link the 'Bush is involved in human sacrafice' post, that was a hoot, and why your 'Bush lost me' post got such a reaction from me, I don't believe you.

You also think 9/11 was a government plot, yet Bush lost YOU after 9/11?

Come on host we are not the uneducated Amish like people you once accused us of being

Its no wonder you don't think we are at war with Islamofascists as you think we have done it to ourselves.

That was the question here, nothing about the pretzeldent.

And I do owe you an appology. I did miss the three posts you made outside of politics/parinoia in the last 2 years that didn't directly involve politics (according to the search function). This may seem sarcastic since it has been only 3 out of 488, but since those three are somewhat recent I assume this is an ernest effort on your part.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

dc_dux

Over a third of the muslims in the world are in these 10 countires
1 Indonesia (182,570,000 muslims)
2 Pakistan (134,480,000)
3 India (121,000,000)
4 Bangladesh (114,080,000)
5 Turkey (65,510,000)
6 Iran (62,430,000)
7 Egypt (58,630,000)
8 Nigeria (53,000,000)
9 Algeria (30,530,000)
10 Morocco (28,780,000)

Which of these top 10 countries with muslim populations are controlled by what you call "islamofacists? - Iran

Which are becoming more radicalized both at the government level and among the Islamic populous, in part because of US policy (granted that islamic extremism existed long before Bush)?

You dont defeat the extremists with policy and rhetoric that turns more moderate muslims to their side. At least Condi Rice recognized that:

In a controversial move within the administration, [Undersecretary of State Karen] Hughes and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice seem to have persuaded Bush — temporarily, at least — to drop the label “Islamic fascism” from his speeches; diplomats say that Muslims hear it as an attack on their religion, thereby validating the extremists’ false charge that the United States is at war with Islam.

The move is a blow to conservatives, who celebrated last month when President Bush used the term several times in his speeches on terrorism. The phrase is a favorite of right-wing commentators like Bill O’Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, and Sean Hannity; the AP called it “the new buzzword” for conservatives “in an election season dominated by an unpopular war in Iraq.”

And who the fuck is the fjordman....for all I know he is just a eurofacist.

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"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Ustwo

India - No point in going into that one, the 900 million non-Muslims have sway.

Turkey - Potential sure, but their military keeps it in check.

Iran - You don't need help here I hope.

Egypt - Has potential, had people dancing in the streets after 9/11, has tourist massacres every now and then, but being the 2nd biggest beneficiary of US aid and having a heavy western tourist industry has helped keep it somewhat modderate. As a side note I have an open invitation to stay at a friends home in egypt if I am ever there, nice guy, smart guy, thought the Talbian was good and that Egypt is so well off because Muslims are in charge, but a nice guy.

Nigeria - Are you talking about the Christian south or the Muslim north? Guess where the violence is! Guess who is being attacked!

Morocco - has a Western leaning king but isn't immune

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

dc_dux

As you noted:

While Indonesia is known as a secular, tolerant society that practices a moderate form of Islam, radical Islamists have gained momentum......To its credit, since October 2002 the Indonesian government has cooperated with U.S. and Australian officials in their attempts to disrupt terrorist networks in Southeast Asia.

Will the Indonenian government and the vast majority moderate islamic population continue to be cooperative if they perceive the West is attacking their religion and not the extremists who have coopted the religion to support their terrorist goals?

While Iran has the most radical regime among all the muslim countries, it also has the most secular population, particularly among those under 30 yrs old, which is the vast majority of the country.

I'll make the same argument again....Will the vast majority of young, moderate muslims in Iran who want a more secular government feel an affinity to the US and the West if they perceive we are attacking their religion and not the extremists who have coopted the religion to support their terrorist goals?

Turkey and Egypt are models of relatively "moderate" Muslim republics (Egypt to a lesser degree until it has real open elections) both of which recognize Israel and acknowledge that they can peacefully co-exist.

Are there anti-US extemists dancing the streets.....absolutely. Will that increase if it is perceived that the West is attacking the religion and not the extemists?

I could go on through each country listed. My point is we need a policy to address the extemists and not attack the religion by cherry-picking passages of the Koran.

We need to be pressuring more moderate muslims to speak out and to reform the radical components of their religion as christianity did over time.

We need to be countering the anti-American propaganda that is spread throughout the muslim world by Al Jazeera.

We dont need to be enflaming the majority of moderate muslims with rhetoric that comes across as an attack on their religion.

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"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

host

I'm sorry.....

the "Executive Summary", posted above, is available at this link:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-436es.html

To me, the "cast of character" below, seems more likely to fund a corporatist propaganda "message", than it seems likely to fund any reliable "Executive Summary", that would be of benfit to someone with no profit agenda....like.....me!

ubertuber

Which doesn't mean much more to me than the accusation that fjordman is a eurofascist. You want to convince me (and others who think like me)? Rebut the summary itself and lay off on attacking the authors. Just because someone has an agenda doesn't mean they aren't correct!

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Intense1

I've read all these posts, and have been caught up in all the hoopla. But what really remains is this: How many of you actually know any real Europeans? (my apologies if any posters actually are, I haven't read your profiles) I could get on Skype right now (actually, on Monday, during the work week) and talk to a Swiss, a Norwegian, a Dane, a Swede, a German, a Spaniard, several Dutch and a few Russians about this issue. Not to mention Aussies, Kiwis, Canadians, and any number of other nationalities. All are people I know, and people who are aware of what's going on in the world, not just caught up in their own stuff.

All would agree with this fact - it is good that America is standing strong against the enemies of freedom, in this current Islamofacist relevation. Because we are doing it means that they don't have to.

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(none yet, still thinkin')

dc_dux

For the record, my questioning whether the fjordman was a "eurofacist" was intended to highlight that such terms are perjorative and are used mostly for political purposes rather than to reflect the true nature of the person(s).

Is it really necessary to provide a definition of fascism?

What is gained by using such a fallacious description as islamofacist? The Muslim extremists are hijacked their religion. My point is that we are better served by working with the hundreds of millions of moderate muslims than providing them with a reason to support the extemists by dispariging their religion.

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"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

flstf

If they are really out to get you, you are not crazy (or in this case, a racist).