samcol

I've been talking about how "un-conservative" the current conservatives power are for awhile now. Obviously, they have house, the senate, the presidency, and now the supreme court. It is time to pass a law outlawing abortion. Slam that legislation through just like all the massive spending packages and anti-terror legislation and let Bush sign on the dotted line.

However, I think most of us know that this will never happen.

They took your votes for small government, and pro-life, etc., and what are you getting? It's time for conservatives to wake up. If you don't apply pressure to these guys that's it. Abortion will continue to be the law of the land for some time to come. It's unlikely that conservatives will regain the kind of power (especially this next election) to actually do something about it any time soon.

We supposedly live in a democracy, or so I've been told. The people voted for Pro-life, should they get it?

Note: This thread isn't about your opinion of whether or not this country (the USA) should be pro-choice or pro-life, it's about whether or not Republicans are pro-life or pro-choice or if they are just using it to get elected.

Mojo_PeiPei

Roe v. Wade will probably stand as a precedent, laws would be tough to pass through w/o filibuster, thus the only thing regarding abortion you will find is restrictions and hopefully a partial-birth ban, the current court would in my estimation have no probably upholding that even if they will respect Roe.

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alpha phi

They are just using it to get re-elected
Just like they are the party of reform
yet, things have only gotten more corrupt.
They say smaller goverment
yet, the beast is larger than ever.

Next term the dems will claim these things
and not deliver anything

I often think the first hitler/bush photoshop was done by carl rove
to give impression bush is a rightwing ultra conservative.
rather than the run of the mill state-ist he is

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pan6467

To be honest, I truly don't think it is that great of an issue. I don't think even the GOP can claim that their elections are a result of that one issue.

It's a suicide issue to take no matter how you feel as a congressman. Because in all but a very few districts and maybe some states, the split is probably even on this issue. And if the GOP were to decide to truly outlaw abortion, they would lose far more votes than they would gain come reelection time. I say this because the pro-lifers are 99% probably GOP minded anyway, while there are pro-choicers may ignore that issue because they feel that the GOP is stronger in other aspects. But if abortion is made illegal, you raise their ire maybe enough to switch sides.

It's a tightrope act, in that the pro lifers are expecting results but you won't lose them, meanwhile, you have to keep the pro choice crowd happy or lose them back to the Dems.

So, I think it's just lip service and I don't see anyone ever truly trying to overturn Roe v. Wade. It would hurt the GOP with the moderates, who lean fiscally conservative and yet are socially/liberal.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Ustwo

The only way to 'have' the senate is to have 55 votes, the Republicans do not have the senate.

If they did have the senate with 55 votes, about 5 "Republican" senators are really closer to democrats than republicans. They would not have the Senate.

So pushing for it now is a moot point it would fail, and only serve as a rallying cry for the disjointed left. We all know how pissy the left gets when you start saying you should be responsible BEFORE having sex.

Of course there are Republicans like myself who don't really give a shit, would never push for a fight on this, and think in the long run abortion helps the nation by reducing the welfare roles and the amount of future democrats, but thats just me being evil.

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rlbond86

Then why are republicans supportive of pharmacists who refuse to dispense condoms?
And what about emergency contraception, like the morning after pill? The FDA, run by republicans, refused to certify ECs to appease their religiuos base. So don't talk about how democrats are irresponsible about sex.

Ustwo

While I have no problem with controception, I don't have problems with people who don't believe it should be used. You see those same people tend to keep their legs crossed unless they are willing to become parents so they are in fact being responsible.


On the other hand being irresponsible in sex, getting pregnant, and then playing semantics on when life begins because you are unwilling to accept responsiblity for your own actions would I think sum up the democratic position nicely.

Being evil I support that position.

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Paq

do you honestly believe that everyone who doesn't use controceptives keep their legs closed until they are ready to have children?

honestly?

all i wanna know...dude...what are you smokin'?

as for this particular issue...i think this is akin to the dem's stance on gun control. they may 'feel' one way about it, but they avoid the issue bc they know they would lose too many votes bc of it.

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Hardknock

Probably the same dope that's "killing" the children...

ratbastid

You're right, samcol, it's now or never. Sadly for your position, the choice will be: never.

Here's the deal. Your politicians lied to you. That's what they do. They tell whoever they're talking to RIGHT NOW what they want to hear ("We'll end abortion this term!"), and then when they get in office, they do what's pluralist and popular to preserve their reelection chances. That's how politics work.

There's no way abortion will EVER be outlawed in the current climate. Anyone who proposes it is committing career suicide. There's just not a strong enough plural mandate for it. There's a relatively strong minority anti-abortion (I refuse to use the spinphrase "pro-life" unless you're also against the death penalty) faction, and they're loud and noisy, but <a href="http://pollingreport.com/abortion.htm">polls show</a> that they don't have the support of the broad section of America.

It's a mistake to cast abortion as a Republican/Democrat issue. Most Democrats are pro-choice. Some--not most and definitely not all--Republicans are anti-abortion. Don't let divisive manipulators like Ustwo try to tell you otherwise, because the facts don't bear it out.

genuinegirly

You do have a point there. Conservatives don't have the numbers, even now. That's a pretty hilarious perspective when it comes to abortion helping society

I'm a Libertarian. Let them do what they want and have fewer regulations governing everyone.
Unfortunately, you don't see too many Libertarians in power.

I happen to personally not want to kill any of my potential children. But I haven't been put in a situation yet where I have to make that choice and I wouldn't tell anyone they are mistaken for making that choice. Is that Pro-life? I guess, but it isn't the same vein as my friend E, for example, who gets into anyone and everyone's face the minute they mention anything revolving around the subject.

Interesting point of fact on an odd religion that I happen to know a lot about (me<--indoctrinated at a young age)... Mormons tend to be pro-life. They preach pro-life from the pulpit and tell people to vote pro-life. But their practice is a little different. They don't place it on the same level as murder. If someone murders someone, and wants to join the Mormon church, they are denied. If someone has an abortion, they are welcomed. And yet, they're pro-life. Hmmmmmmm. There's a different perspective for you.

So there we go.

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The_Jazz

The Congressional right certainly has members that would be willing to sponsor an abortion ban even if it meant career suicide within the House. Given the way districts are currently drawn, they'd still probably stay in office unless something unrelated took them out (Abramov, etc.). I'm specifically thinking of some the Members from Kansas that have the constituent support to propose the death penalty for abortion providers, let alone a ban.

The real problem is whether or not the leadership would ever let a ban out of committee or even to be discussed in committee. They aren't ready for that kind of fight given the current turmoil with the various scandals. That's not to say that they couldn't be ready to go in 6 months, but it would probably hurt a lot of incumbents in an election cycle. If they were really serious about outlawing abortion (or even restricting it), they would have gone after it at the beginning of this Congress. With the new session starting up next week, the Republicans are electing a new majority leader and worrying about reelection. February of 2006 is a terrible time for them to be taking this up and trying to pass any sort of controversial ban.

So, Samcol, no they aren't going to take it up but if they manage to keep roughly the same majority of seats in the House, its a possibility but not a certainty.

The Senate is a completely different situation, and there's virtually no chance of any sort of ban ever making it out of committee, let alone coming to a vote. It would be filibustered into extinction immediately if it somehow made it to the floor.

maleficent

Why is that an unreasonable expectation... People know where babies come from. A responsible person (that is a person with at least 2 brain cells that work) doesn't have sex if they are not using contraceptives... If they do have sex, then it's consequences... deal with it.

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Poppinjay

Ah, yes. This is why Catholic families are notoriously petite.

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Poppinjay

They don't know.

Among the beliefs from my high school friends:

If the girl jumps up and down after sex, there will be no preganancy

If she douches, there will be no pregnancy

Saran Wrap is as good as a condom

If you pull out, things will be OK

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I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

pig

I'm not saying it has any affect, but lets assume $400/abortion, and that the number of abortions annually is about 1,293,000, which would mean something like $517,200,000/year in $$$ for abortions. Then imagine that that is taxed, and that that industry lobbies Congress like every other industry does.

What's the chance that abortion becomes illegal?

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Felicity

You got it ..it's "the love of money" that is at the root of this evil...Abortion has to become unprofitable. The way that's done is by diminishing demand--and the way that's done is by changing perceptions through education of the facts--ALL the facts concerning abortion..Unfortunately--the medical industry is in no big hurry to back anything negative about such a moneymaker--just look at all the conflicting info about PASS and the breast cancer/abortion link. They hear what they want to hear and fund what they want to fund to the benefit of their wallets.

maleficent

Ignorance and stupidity are no excuse and not without consequences... ignorance of the law doesn't get you out of certain behavior, ignorance of how reproduction works doesn't give you an excuse...

Sex ed is taught in school (I went to catholic school in the late 70s and it was taught then...) The information is available to people... "they don't know" is a bullshit excuse - those are the people who need to be taken and shot to prevent them from ever reproducing..

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Elphaba

Samcol:
samcol, neither congress nor scotus are in the position to outlaw abortion. Only the individual states can pass abortion related legislation. Scotus steps in when that legislation fails to take into account the health of the mother.

If your desire is to end all "elective" abortions, it must be done via your state legislature.

Poppinjay

I have to congratulate you on your education. Rest assured, in the rural south in the late 80's, it was not taught. One guy came around with a film strip when we were juniors, but by then there were already 6 pregnant girls in my class. They dedicated more time to gun safety and army recruitment. However, my public high school did and still does teach bible studies. I still don't understand how they get away with that.

Compound that with the fact that at many stores, condoms are under lock and key so you have to get somebody to open the cabinet to purchase them. And a pharmacist can legally refuse to honor a birth control script.

Now put all these problems in the hands of a nervous 16 year old girl, and you get the same dubious sexual choices that have been made since the dawn of time.

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I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

pig

well, for clarity's sake - i'm pro-choice, but that's not really the point of this thread, i don't think. I don't think abortion sprang up to make more money for doctors, but now that its a relatively mature industry it would be really difficult to kill it. regardless of which of our two parties are in office, they are both beholden to business and special interest groups to an extent that I would think the abortion clinics would have greased the wheel, paid to play, etc. If the freaking Native American tribes are paying in...I'm sure that good old honkey ass abortion docs know how the system works. And if the rumors are true, that the Republican party is particularly strong with business / corporate interests, then that might actually works against the outlawing of abortions during the current party's tenure, despite whatever load of horseshit they are saying in their soundbites.

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The_Jazz

Actually both bodies are in possitions to do both but in very different ways. Congress could outlaw abortion in Washington, DC and they could also get creative and do what they did to the states when they wanted the drinking age raised - tie abortion to funds that the states desperately need. In the 70's and 80's there were a few states that held out as long as they could on the drinking age (LA and WI are the most notable), but Congress made raising the drinking age a prerequisite for getting any highway funds. They could do the same with Medicare, i.e. the states aren't going to get any unless they outlaw abortion at all stages and circumstances. However, the chances of this actually getting through for a vote are so remote it's really not worth talking about. Practically speaking, any legislation of this sort would come from the states well before it hit congressionally.

As far as SCOTUS goes, please remember that that there are dozens of abortion cases submitted to the Court every year. If the justices decide that they want to be activists (which might actually kill Scalia), then they could find a case and excuse to overturn Roe. The chances of that happening are also diminishingly small at this point, although Roberts has not had a chance to really assert himself and Alito is still very much an unknown. The most likely way for an overturn would be for a state to pass some sort of partial or total ban so that SCOTUS could review it. Overturning Roe at this point is the only chance, and I doubt that will happen any time soon, despite the far right's desperate hopes.

Elphaba

Good input, Jazz. Also, I would like to point out that SCOTUS has not tilted significantly in the conservative direction. Kennedy could become the swing vote that O'Connor once was.

Ustwo

And this has to do with anything what? If you take responsibility for your actions and have 20 kids more power to you.

Well of course the obvious solution is abortion!

Its how Darwin says 'no!'.

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rlbond86

You are way off my friend. The reason that abortion will never be outlawed is that it's a Republican selling point. Many religious families voted republican simply because they believed that it would stop abortion. Do you think the republicans would just give up one of their major selling points? The day Roe vs. Wade is overturned is the day that the republicans fall out of power.

Ustwo

Abortion has been an issue for around 35 years.

The Republican party has been around since 1856.

Since that time there have been 11 Democrat presidents (2 prior to Lincoln) and 19 Republican presidents.

I hate to break it to you but the Republican party is not a one issue party.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Elphaba

Ustwo, abortion has been an issue long before this Republic was founded. Roe v. Wade didn't appear out of the ether.

Kadath

And I know I'm not breaking this to you: the Republican and Democratic parties have shifted significantly since their inception. Dixiecrats, for example. You're correct, however, in saying the Republican party is not one issue. Many voters are one-issue, though, and both parties have to court those votes.

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it's quiet in here

Ustwo

Thank you Elphaba but as a political issue in the US being blown well out of proportion it has not been an issue very long. Though I hear that Wilson beat Taft on a pro-choice platform

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Ustwo

Yes, but the posters point was that if abortion were outlawed (and ironicly that would be the will of the people if it came to a democratic vote) the Republican party would be out of any power. This is of course silly and shows a lack of understanding of the Republican voters. As for those one issue voters, do you see someone who is strongly anti-abortion, switching to the democratic party who would be fighting to get abortion back?

Right now the democrats try to scare liberal women into voting saying the Republicans will take away their right to have abortions, do you think they would 'give up' this angle if abortion were outlawed? They would switch to 'get your freedom of choice back!' as a battle cry.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Kadath

It's not a question of switching parties, as you're clearly aware; it's getting people to vote at all. It's like Republicans are trying to scare people into voting by summoning the specter of terrorism. Same technique, different topic.

Also, it would not be the will of the people, as we're not a democracy (as you're also aware), we're a republic, and we elect people to vote for us. If a law is uheld or overturned by the Supreme Court, how does that represent the will of the people? The people don't vote for Supreme Court judges; they vote for the people who nominate and confirm them.

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it's quiet in here

Ustwo

My contention that people who ONLY vote for one reason (being anti-abortion in this case) will continue to do so even if abortion was outlawed inorder to keep it outlawed. I was thinking about this a bit, and really the only way for this to in any way affect the Republican party would be if Democrats moved to outlaw abortion. That kind of move would not only remove the one issue voters, but cut into the Republican base enough to make a difference. Since that isn't going to happen, they can't do a 180 like they did with gun control, its only interesting as a hypothetical.

As for the civics lesson I am well aware of how the government works. I just find it amusing that the precious right to abortion is not supported by even a simple majority of the voters. Roe v Wade was one of those classic examples of judicial activisim, which is something I find closer to a dictatorship than a republic, reguardless of the outcome being something I favor like abortion or something I oppose. Once a member of the SCOTU you are accountable to no one. This, like all power can be a used for good or for ill.

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docbungle

I disagree with your generalization of dems, as I find such huge generalizations meaningless, but I agree completely with everything else you say here. People refuse to break the word 'abortion' down and see it for what it really is: people wanting to be bailed out for acting irresponsibly. Sure, rape or danger to the mother during childbirth are issues, but they are not the norm. The norm is people refusing to be responsible for their own actions.

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ratbastid

It's simply untrue that the majority of Americans want abortion outlawed. <a href="http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm">The poll results</a> are very clear about this.

Americans want abortion to remain available 3 to 1 over those who want it outlawed completely. Two out of three Americans want Roe v Wade to stand. In the latest round of polls, 56% of Americans want abortion laws relaxed or left unchanged. 53% identify as Pro-Choice. 57% believe abortion should be legal in all or most cases.

I'll put up with no more of this "will of the people" nonsense from the anti-abortion faction. That includes "disinterested" rabble-rousers like Ustwo.

stevo

oooh now we get into some light name calling. I love these abortion threads...

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Ustwo

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/Da...oll030122.html

This is not new news, I shouldn't have to post it to prove it.

Most people do favor it for rape and the mothers life being in danger, a smaller majority favor it for defective children, but a majority oppose it as a form of birth control, and thats what the democrats are fighting for.

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ratbastid

It's conventional wisdom, perhaps, but it's not based in fact.

Did you even look at the link I posted? I've posted it twice to this thread now, because it seemed like you ignored it the first time.

Wording is everything when it comes to polls. The one that's the biggest slam-dunk, IMO, is 66% of people saying they do not want Roe v Wade overturned. That's pretty much the end of the story, far as public opinion goes.

Elphaba

From the OP: Samcol, have we gone astray from your original intent?

Elphaba

duplicate post

samcol

A little, but that's no big deal. Apparently most people think that the Republicans will not make a move to out law abortion, but will continue to use it to gain a significant portion of votes.