MageB420666

What if there is no afterlife?

Does that mean the whatever we do in this life does no lasting harm? Because after we are dead.... it essenstially would mean nothing to us.

If it was proven that there was no afterlife, would society as we know it fall apart because those that are afraid of doing wrong are assured of nothing bad happening to them after death?

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Zyr

People who do believe do bad things anyway, and people who don't believe do good.

No point, just saying.

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d*d

In a purely self centred respect this is true, once you are dead you don't and can't care and nothing can hurt you. However I don't beleive in a majority of cases people are getting thier moral code from fear of retribution in an afterlife - more a need to make the one they live in as pleasant experience as possible.

jwoody

The clue is in the question.

After... Life.

I'd be interested in hearing your definition of the afterlife.

Is it a straight choice between good (Heaven?) or bad (Hell?), or will your degree of afterlife goodness depend on how good (or bad) you are as a person before your death?

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MageB420666

Doesn't matter, any after life at all would apply to everyone, whether they went to hell or somewhere(s) in between, they would eventually have to deal with the consequences of their actions, be it from peers or some controlling power....

so the question remain viable

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jwoody

Fair enough.

I am living my life as a person who is 100% convinced that there is no afterlife. I am living without fear of repercussions/retribution after my death.

What do you want to know?

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MageB420666

well, much of society (at least as much as I've experienced of it as what I hope is an average "American" as the popular term goes) is based upon the idea that if you don't do what is "right", you will be punished for all eternity afterwards. My main question is, what would keep people following societies rules if they didn't have to fear an eternal punishment, after all life is only temporary.

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jwoody

I did have a long reply before I accidently hit ctrl+W instead of shift+W.

Basically, my point is that it's perfectly acceptable to make life decisions based on the probable short-term after effects.

I see a lot of similarities between the afterlife story and 'Santa Claus through a child's eyes'.

"If you don't behave well all year then you won't recieve any presents..."

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Charlatan

There is no afterlife... it doesn't change the fact that what I do has an effect on the world as a whole. Would I rather leave the world a better or worse place for my kids and grandkids and so on... That is the question I ask myself.

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ratbastid

MAN is that not my experience of average American society!

Look: I don't believe in an afterlife either. I believe that when I die, my consciousness will go "poof". And I do a LOT of work to make the world a better place.

I'm not motivated by an eternal reward. I don't intend to have children, so it's not some legacy I'm out to leave. I'm motivated by things like how it feels for me NOW to make a difference in the world.

I think back to my grandfather's funeral, which absolutely PACKED the Episcopal Cathedral in our city. I want to have a standing-room-only funeral, I want to be somebody who had that kind of impact in people's lives. I'm clear I won't be around to see that, but I want it anyway.

Ustwo

Being an atheist it wouldn't affect me a whole lot, but I think we need to look at this from the uneducated perspective.

Can you say no one out there is motivated by the concept of hell/sin in terms of their behavior? Even among the educated there is always that nagging doubt, that what if, in the back of your mind.

My guess is all hell would break loose. (heh)

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Charlatan

So by your reasoning religion (and specifically the afterlife promised by most religions) is the only thing that maintains order in our society.

Further, that you, as an educated man are somehow better than those who are not.

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d*d

The kind of society we live in should not require a controlling element like the one you are suggesting, people are not inherently evil with only the promise of eternal damnation keeping them in line. Which rules do you refer to?

genuinegirly

I tend to think of things as more of a butterfly effect scenario.
No matter what you do, it will affect people and society in one way or another. No one person lives in a vacuum. Even hermits...

I do not think that society would fall apart. Chances are, religion would tend more towards a Confucism mentality. Not to say that Confucism would work this day and age, but fundamentally Confucism is a system of rules for people to get along in the present world. He did not take into account any sort of afterlife. Rather than focusing on an after life, those who were religious would most likely focus more on creating a pleasant world for all to live in.

It might actually change the United States' stance on the death penalty. If we know this life is our only life, and when it's over it's over, there might be more people willing to work to reform killers rather than just ending their life and "letting God deal with it."

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Ustwo

When did I say that? Try not to jump to conclusions. When the power goes out in a major city, or police services are diminished, the worst in humanity tends to come out, and things get bad. This does not mean that electricity or police are the only thing that maintains order in our society. Likewise if the moral code most of us gain through our religion, based on the idea of an afterlife were somehow hypothetically disproved, would cause reverberations in the social order until a new order was established. In the mean time I would expect an increase in crimes.

This is something of an ironic statement based on the context of the discussion. In a Christian sense, all are equal and no soul is better than another. From a logical standpoint, being educated, and having skills available to you that others do not (as well as being of above average intelligence) makes your value higher than others to society.

The concept of some sort of universal equality is very new in human existence, and the Judeo-Christian ethic is a large part its rise.

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Daoust

Excuse me, sir! Are you saying that educated people are smart enough know that there is no possibility of an afterlife? That the educated (whatever that term means) have the answers to such things, and the uneducated don't? Or rather that by uneducated you might mean those who have faith in things unseen? There are educated people, believe it or not, who do strongly believe in the afterlife, and their opinions are no less important than that of an educated person who does not believe in an afterlife. Don't be so ignorant as to equate people of faith with people of stupidity.

The best advice I can give to people who have their own ideas of whether there is an afterlife or not, and what it is like, is that you'd better be right.

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Willravel

That would sure make me want to do a lot more when I was alive (edit: with the people I love).

Charlatan

Ustwo... first you suggested that we need to take an "uneducated" approach to this question. This suggests that anyone who is educated cannot grasp the concept of "afterlife". You went on to say that with no concept of "afterlife" or the implied reward/punishment that an afterlife provides, "all hell would break loose".

Given the context that you are an atheist, and by suggestion, an educated man what I am I to conclude except that you are suggesting that the afterlife and it means is used to control the uneducated and that you as an educated person do not need such constraints.

I was jumping to no conclusions that your post didn't ask me to make.



As for your power and police analogy... we were subject to the big blackout here and there was no increase in crime that night. In fact, my experience was just the opposite.

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Ustwo

The key word here is ONLY. Religion HELPS maintain order, but it is not the ONLY factor. This was your faulty jump in logic.

I orginally used intelligence over education but switched it, I should have used both, as both are a requirement. My thought has always been that if you are intelligent, educated, and still feel the absoulte validity of the creed of most organized religions, you are deluding yourself. Its a beautiful deception, one I wish I could indulge in as oblivion has no alure for me, but a fantasy none the less.

Yes that must mean its not true. My research mentor used to tell a bit of a joke that I will never forget since it applies to much in life, N = 1 is a case study N = 5 is still a case study. One only has to look at the chaos that was in N.O. to know what happens when power and police are removed from the equation.

I'd also note that they will increase police presence during a black out, plus one would assume that the power outages would have to be predicted or prolonged for a criminal to take advantage. Reguardless electrical power is just one thing that helps maintain order, much like the police, or personal moral codes.

Power and police are easy to document, and in some locations most likely not even the force that maintains order. In my city, it would take a long time without either for the social order to degrade, in other places its a thin veneer.

But 'kill' their religion, and no one thinks anything unpleasent would happen?

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cybersharp

I think the others now see your point, when I read your previous posts before your last one though however I had thought that they where saying those things because of the ill word choose you used anyway, not your fault, just a mishape of communication, kind of unfortunate... anyway... my "religion" has been dead for me about 2 years now, and I am going to have to say that I did way worse things while I was still going to church than I do now.. Ironic is it not?

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abaya

Precisely. It is the here and now that concerns me; I only have an unknown number of years/decades before my single opportunity to DO something in this world is taken away, either suddenly or by a debilitating/long-term illness. I, too, want to move and shake the world, though I don't know if that means a ton of people will attend my funeral. Maybe just a small handful will, but I know that it will be because I changed their lives. Huge funeral or not, at least I want to make that impact... and it has nothing to do with the afterlife.

Why else are we here? To be born, live, suffer, and die? That is the core of Theravada Buddhist teaching, but I don't know how much I jive with it. I am not alive in order to die (and go to heaven, or the next reincarnation, etc). I am alive in order to BE alive, and to DO something with this life.

My opinion comes from a long, long time of believing in (and being scared/motivated by) heaven and hell... and the last 5 years of gradually examining, then surrendering that idea.

I think this is where we can make arguments for the difference between morals and ethics... Halx did a good job on this, in some thread I have forgotten the name of now. Morals tend to come from religion/tradition, usually with some kind of punishment (real or not) if they are not followed. Ethics are rules for treating other people, regardless of religion/belief etc. They are our own inner judge of proper human interaction, simply based on the present life and the repercussions while we are all still very much alive.

People talk about sin and the afterlife. I see no need for that connection. If I had to use the word "sin," I would say that it is valid only if it is "that which hurts other people or yourself, unintentionally or otherwise." I do believe in sin, but not as a form of sending one to hell in the afterlife. I think sin creates its own form of hell in the present life, one you see playing out in the immediate sense or long term. If you hurt someone, you create a tiny little hell for them, and you offend your own humanity as well. That is why forgiveness and grace are essential to human relations, in the secular sense.

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jwoody

I hadn't considered this before.

So, by their logic, the people who pass (and perform) death sentences don't believe they are ending a life.

To them, it's a one way ticket to the pearly gates. (?)

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d*d

Or hellfire, I'm not sure that religion is the guiding factor in the death penalty, isn't it against most religions to take a life.

alpha phi

exodus 19:12
And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death

exodus 21:12
He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death

exodus 21:15
And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.

exodus 21:16
And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.

exodus 21:17
And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death

exodus 21:29
But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.

and it goes on and on

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rofgilead

I think it is a great waste to wait for the afterlife to celebrate existence - heaven is on earth (and it is both amazing and terrifying). Enjoy your life now - because this is what you have.

I think many people do good because they believe it is good, and do not need a carrot and a stick approach to be good or evil (myself included).

Ustwo

I have to say if anything it would swing us even more in favor of the death penalty.

After all he murderer just ended the only life the victims will ever have, and they are now totally lost. There is no devine retrobution for those crimes, and 'vengence is mine sayith the lord' means nothing. As such the only 'justice' would be an eye for an eye, who cares if a murderer lives or dies, we can't allow him to kill again.

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Easytiger

I'd like to think that if there is no afterlife, people would become much more careful with how they live in the here and now. If this life is all we have, and there is no big God in the sky to reward or punish us, then we really need to think about making the most of our existence.
Definitely wishful thinking there, of course.

Mantus

The odd thing is that if we made a thread tittled "What if there was an afterlife" we would get similar responces.

Sweetpea

"no afterlife", by definition to me personally would be: one believes that they will cease to be when their heart stops beating and their vitals signs discontinue, all ceasing not only in body, but in mind and spirit.

If there's no afterlife, it won't affect me during life or how i lead my life... I do not identify with any religion... BUT i do believe that there is some sort of energy or rhythm in this world that interacts with human beings... i believe that when i die, the 'spiritual' aspect of myself (and ALL of us, irregardless of who we were/are here on Earth) will carry on in some form. I know this because i've been very close to people who have had near death experiences and described things not of this Earth....

However, If there is no afterlife (which i don't happen to believe), i imagine i'll just be pushing up dasies and not know any different...

Would it change society if we all knew for a scientific fact that there wasn't ? nay... i don't think so. Because people would still believe what they want too and as long as people want to believe that there is an afterlife, then it will be so in society....

In the end, we might all be surprised one way or another.

sweetpea

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zz0011

Good post.

Seems to me better to live according to a Judeo-Christian ethic [and let's take out the "fear of judgement" after for the moment] and attempt to please God by heeding his Word and then be wrong then decide what the hell matter does it make and do whatever you please.

If everyone used the Sermon on the Mount as a goal and set of life principles, how much better would the world be? Measurably.

If everyone simple lived to please sell, how much of a worse place would the world be? Measurably.

Of course, neither extreme generally happens, though it seems we are hedging closer to the 2nd way of life [by the headlines].

Undoubtedly, from perusing this thread and others, this is a minority opinion. No matter. For those who have their mind made up, won't matter anyway.

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d*d

I stand corrected, it seems we do have Gods blessing to kill others for a variety of reasons, including cursing your Mother and Father - I should be dead.

redsfan11

Afterlife definately exists even if it is only the memory of you that lives on. I don't believe that it is only fear of retribution by a supreme being that make people live a good life, but also a desire to be remembered as a good person by those that are left behind.

Seeker

I have never let the thoughts of an afterlife effect how I live my life while I am alive... to do so would really have the wrong intentions in my heart

To be good in this life so I could bask in the glory of the afterlife would make me pretty shallow in my own eyes.

Instead I decide to try and bring the concept of "on earth as it is in heavan", so that way, if I die and there is no afterlife it doesn't matter... I have at least put my best efforts into making my time here as good for me and those around me as possible.

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zeitgeist1

The question this really raises for me is the purpose of existence. If corporeal existence doesn't presuppose something else, what is the point of doing anything in this existence, regardless of the consequences?

TheObserver

Well that's not true... and secondly that doesn't make any sense because if one people didn't believe in such things, such as an afterlife, then you really couldn't call someone doing somethign good or bad, because that's just an opinion. There really woudln't be any good or bad things.

c172g

One point that hasn't been brought up is that supposedly it doesn't matter when you put your eggs in the "religion" basket, as long as you do so you're off to heaven. Thousands of prisoners "find Jesus" in prison. They are then forgiven for their sins, and a lot of those "sins" include murder, rape, etc.

My point is that there are bad people that will do bad things, and I don't think they're worried about the concept of heaven or an afterlife when they choose to do them. Some are born bad, others converted by peer pressure, some turn bad based on other circumstances like not having enough money to support their family or drug habit.

I'm an atheist, and I feel motivated to be good to other people. My chance to do that is here, not there. Someone headed for prison might have 100% belief in God & the afterlife but still chooses to off someone for fun or a few bucks. That's just people.

I do, however, believe that religion is needed in society to keep order. If everyone was convinced there was no repurcussion for their actions, I think you would have a higher crime rate...

d*d

You make it sound like a technicality, as i understand it if there were an afterlife then they have to 'really' beleive in it - not pay it lip service at the end your life to get in.

So since your an aethiest this applies only to other people in society, what makes you so special.

Guinevere

I keep waiting for you educated types to jump in and mention the crusades or jihad or all the killing done in the name of religion and to seek glory in the 'afterlife.' It never made any damn sense to me. Me? pure existentialist. It's the here and now for me. But I do believe in the inherent goodness of man which shapes my entire world view.

Tachion

If everyone thought only of themselves then your conclusion would be correct and that is what defines some mental illness.

However even if our existance ends, our ripple created by our actions on the planet continues. So if you care at all about another who is still alive ( a child, loved ones, society in general) you will still work to create a positive ripple that continues after your death, as you will want to minimize the suffering of those you care for. Perhaps that is why some participate on this very forum.

An afterlife is not necessary for the vast majority of people to do good.
It is a very small percentage that feel nothing for anyone else.

duckznutz

Of course there is 'afterlife' . . you decompose and new life springs from your re-arranged molecules. Flowers grow. Unless of course your cremated, in which case the released energy is re-absorbed into the ecosystem somewhere or other.

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