An Atheist's Views - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

WhoaitsZ · 06-06-2003, 11:17 AM

my god can beat up your god!

the whole idea of a Christian being better than an Atheist is bullshit . Aetheist are not 'better', either. we are all people, all different but equal.

I have thought of giving myself my own title for years because sometimes it is embarresing to be a Christian... like:

We have the holier than thous.

We have the hate mongers like Jerry Fawell and Pat Robertson.

we have people murdering abortion doctors, which is extreemly stupid.

we have all kinds of bad shit in our name. but I am a Christian and i will continue to carry the weight for Christ. (it almost sounds like a christ complex, but i assure you it is not.)

every type of person of ever race, sex, ethnic, creed or what have you have had their fair share of assholes and people who will go out of their way to destroy another's beliefe.

so if a Christian becomes very judgemental or holier than though, realize they are false. it is against our code.

as far as 'why must i persecuted for my beliefes?', good question. you shouldn't be given flak of any kind.... but it happens.

and the post queedo threw at Lebell makes it incredably hard to respect queedo is he so easily flies off the handle himself, if you want respect, then fucking earn it. respect is something we are not privelaged to get and it isn't what we get for free. if you can't show respect yourself then you are far beyond worthiness to be respected.

i hope you get some clarity.

chavos · 06-08-2003, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dragonlich
Ah, but can one proof that there isn't a Santa Claus, an Easterbunny, or a Clown named Bob, living in a thrashcan, orbiting the planet Zuul-3 in the Alaxias System, who controls our every move?

It is not "our" job to disprove God; it's the job of the believers to prove him. If they cannot do so, there isn't a lot to talk about, really.

Ah, but there is. Can atheism really talk about good, evil, and the human condition in a way that makes real sense to you? To beat the math analogy further to death, its like trying to solve a calc problem with geometry. You might get an asnwer that works, you might not. And a person that believes in only one won't appriciate the other's solution.

Who does have standard of proof? Doesn't matter...nobody can meet it.

debaser · 06-08-2003, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by chavos
Ah, but there is. Can atheism really talk about good, evil, and the human condition in a way that makes real sense to you? To beat the math analogy further to death, its like trying to solve a calc problem with geometry. You might get an asnwer that works, you might not. And a person that believes in only one won't appriciate the other's solution.

Who does have standard of proof? Doesn't matter...nobody can meet it.

Atheism cannot talk about good, evil, and the human condition because it is not a unified belief, but rather simply a lack of belief in a higher power. There are as many varieties of belief amongst atheists as there are atheists. The discussion of such weighty matters falls to the individual in the case of an atheist.

THE MAC GOD · 06-08-2003, 01:20 AM

These people are what you call "Sunday Christians". They only live for God for one day (if that). Yes, there is corruption and wrong in the Church, but name one organization of power that doesn't. It's like the Catholic Church in the medieval times (fat priests telling people not to gluttonize and selling confessions)-absolute power corrupts absolutely.

chavos · 06-08-2003, 01:23 AM

indeed, i would say that most religions would have as many variations as adherants. But how does a true athiest deal with the problem of good and evil? With out a God or other absolute moral standard, they can't really condemn evil, even if they are personally moral, etc..., because they only have their personal moral standards to express. If you can live with this, fine, but i found it quite untenable to say to myself that the horror and cruelty of the world was just behavior that i personally didn't engage in. Accepting that my disgust was really an indication that there was a Right and Wrong (with capitol letters to indicat universality/asolutivity)...was probably the single most important decisions i've made.

debaser · 06-08-2003, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by chavos
indeed, i would say that most religions would have as many variations as adherants. But how does a true athiest deal with the problem of good and evil? With out a God or other absolute moral standard, they can't really condemn evil, even if they are personally moral, etc..., because they only have their personal moral standards to express. If you can live with this, fine, but i found it quite untenable to say to myself that the horror and cruelty of the world was just behavior that i personally didn't engage in. Accepting that my disgust was really an indication that there was a Right and Wrong (with capitol letters to indicat universality/asolutivity)...was probably the single most important decisions i've made.

Things can still be willed as universal goods or evils (to use the ontological term) without reference to a higher power. The golden rule is a good place to start.

TaiModan · 06-08-2003, 12:53 PM

Ok, I really have to jump into this...

First I'd like to state, that the dictionary defintion of things like Atheism and Religion are seriously outdated, and lack objectivity, to me Religion is what you believe (or disbelieve), BUT the definition of Religion still maintains some accuracy.
Religion - A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. <--- nowhere do I see anything necessarily referring to a 'Supreme Being'

devotion __
n. Ardent, often selfless affection and dedication, as to a person or principle.

If you look at it like this, suddenly Atheism fits under the realm of religion, as by definition it is the dedication to a principle, as well as the fact that it's all a Theological issue.

Next, the issue of Good and Evil. Chavos asks how a true athiest deals with the problem of good and evil, without a God or other absolute moral standard. Well, as far as I see it, we do have a moral standard that need not rely on religious threats of eternal torment, or other such otherworldly retribution.
What stands between us and total Chaos? the knowledge that if everyone decides to go do everything on a whim, and eliminate anyone who stands in their way, NOBODY prospers. The more common belief is that no God means no afterlife. Then why doesnt every Atheist in the world go run rampant and kill, loot, whatnot? I think it's because most people have some form of empathy, or conscience, that dictates, if I do this, someone else may get hurt, and if I do it, then whats to stop the next guy from doing the same, and maybe this time having a detremental affect on MY life?
Others may see it differently, and thats ok, but the point is that altho religion helps give people more of a reason than just "Because I shouldn't do it" and gives them an easy way of expressing WHY they shouldn't, doesn't mean that it's the only way of holding a moral standard. Sure, some people dont hold to my level of morality, and some even think some/many of my own actions immoral, but in the end we have to trust that others will have a reason of some sort to refrain from that deemed "Evil"

ok, I'm starting to ramble as my train of thought finds itself in the middle of a maze... imma go away for now...

mentat · 06-09-2003, 11:57 AM

The reason church members get so offended at atheists is that atheists have no apparent guage of good and evil. They ignore the possibility that one can be a good, moral, and happy person, yet deny the existence of the unseen ghosts that rule the universe.
If you're a Christian (of devout Jew, Hindu, Muslim, etc.), you know through your religious studies what others in your church *should* believe and act. But the atheist is elusive, determining right and wrong from all sources of wisdom and their own personal experiences.
The church - all churches - preach to their minions that the ONLY way to be a good person is to believe in and obey God. They teach that even the greatest of human benefactors, if not part of God's "flock", are automatically damned to Hell.

Mentat

WhoaitsZ · 06-09-2003, 02:11 PM

... you must believe in a god to distinquish (spelling rules) good from evil? eh?

did i miss a day of school?
-lost-

queedo · 06-09-2003, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WhoaitsZ
... you must believe in a god to distinquish (spelling rules) good from evil? eh?

did i miss a day of school?
-lost-

Being Good is treating people like you like to be treated. Being Bad is doing things that might hurt people. WOW I did that all by myself without a bright light or a bruning bush!

WhoaitsZ · 06-09-2003, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by queedo
Being Good is treating people like you like to be treated. Being Bad is doing things that might hurt people. WOW I did that all by myself without a bright light or a bruning bush!

that was my point, queedo....

a lot of the posts in this thread show that, according to them, you cannot have good or evil with a god.

which is completely absurd.

TaiModan · 06-09-2003, 08:34 PM

Bring a God into things, and stuff gets muddy. Thou Shalt Not Kill.
Crusades anyone? Witch burnings? I don't remember anything in the 10 commandments with sub-clauses... "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery (unless she's REALLY hot, and her husband is a jackass)"
People stand behind these things, until they no longer pay out. Oh, it's ok, god doesnt consider those people to be "Real People" because they don't 'Believe' ...... maybe I should stop now.

madsenj37 · 06-10-2003, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by queedo
Being Good is treating people like you like to be treated. Being Bad is doing things that might hurt people. WOW I did that all by myself without a bright light or a bruning bush!

Treating people like you like to be treated seems selfish and self interested and has nothing to do with good.

chavos · 06-10-2003, 09:43 AM

Quote:

the golden rule is a good place to start.

It sure is. But on what authority does its maxim hold True, and not just "a good idea"? The point is that any condemnation that a true atheist can offer is from the offense of his/her own conscience. There is no standard apart from this that they can use. Perhaps others are okay with this...but i would suggest that your instinctual reaction to graphic and egregious wrongs might suggest otherwise-do you say "that murder/rape/child abuse is wrong in my mind, but may have been considered right by the perpetrator" or do you say that "those acts are Wrong, no matter what." The latter points to an authority by which you say that, and its what most people say when first confronted with the real horror of sin.

And to those who say that self-intrest dictates a policy of morality, i'm a little dubious. If the true concern is self intrest, even an enlightened and long term self intrest, i have a problem thinking that it will never run counter to human rights, and what we'd probably say is moral behavior.

And to those who think that just because they can think of a moral law that God is unneeded. If you can imagine a perfect moral code, where DID that idea come from?

"that the requirements of the Law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them."
Romans 2:15

I think our inborn sense of right and wrong is a precious gift from God, not that i can prove it. But it sure makes sense to me...and i hope it might make sense to some of you.

queedo · 06-10-2003, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by madsenj37
Treating people like you like to be treated seems selfish and self interested and has nothing to do with good.

Reality is hard for you, isn't it?

chavos · 06-10-2003, 05:59 PM

Ad hominem attacks are not a good way to advance your argument.

queedo · 06-10-2003, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chavos
Ad hominem attacks are not a good way to advance your argument.

I'm tired of arguing with idiots who don't know a thing about the real world, all they know and will know is what they know now!

WhoaitsZ · 06-10-2003, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by queedo
I'm tired of arguing with idiots who don't know a thing about the real world, all they know and will know is what they know now!

Queedo, if you expect to have a mature conversation then you gotta be mature too.

I'm one of the most sarcastic pricks in the world, but I try not to do it just piss people off or get my way. almost everything you've posted looks like a flame and it is simply very uncool.

You wanted to understand why you got no respect just because you're an atheist? I doubt this is, or has ever been the case if this is how you talk to people in real life. On here you were treated with proper respect and you lashed out on Lebell.

Then I post something about 'how in the world does anyone figure you have to have god to have morals?' because the reasoning is beyond my comphrehension and instead of going on to the next post or agreeing you attacked that too even though you agreed.

then the "reality is hard for you, isn't statement" is made. another pointless, yet heavily sarcastic response followed by another (above) one. dude, I myself am trying hard to respect you but you're walking backwars 50 MPH.

if i were a moderator i'd consider you to simply be trolling.. there is no sense in this.

GoldenOuroboros · 06-10-2003, 06:57 PM

I had a very interesting quote said to me last night... 'How many atheists do you get in a fox hole..?'

When man is staring death in the face he starts to pray...

queedo · 06-10-2003, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WhoaitsZ
Queedo, if you expect to have a mature conversation then you gotta be mature too.

I'm one of the most sarcastic pricks in the world, but I try not to do it just piss people off or get my way. almost everything you've posted looks like a flame and it is simply very uncool.

You wanted to understand why you got no respect just because you're an atheist? I doubt this is, or has ever been the case if this is how you talk to people in real life. On here you were treated with proper respect and you lashed out on Lebell.

Then I post something about 'how in the world does anyone figure you have to have god to have morals?' because the reasoning is beyond my comphrehension and instead of going on to the next post or agreeing you attacked that too even though you agreed.

then the "reality is hard for you, isn't statement" is made. another pointless, yet heavily sarcastic response followed by another (above) one. dude, I myself am trying hard to respect you but you're walking backwars 50 MPH.

if i were a moderator i'd consider you to simply be trolling.. there is no sense in this.

You are right, but it is hard to deal with people who have no respect for other people's opinions, and only understand their own little world. People are so ethnocentric!

debaser · 06-10-2003, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GoldenOuroboros
I had a very interesting quote said to me last night... 'How many atheists do you get in a fox hole..?'

When man is staring death in the face he starts to pray...

I beg to differ. I have been shot at numerous times, in numerous foxholes. Never once have I turned to religion.

WhoaitsZ · 06-10-2003, 07:43 PM

gold dood that's so not helping us out here

queedo · 06-10-2003, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WhoaitsZ
gold dood that's so not helping us out here

Dito to what WhoaitsZ said Gold Dude

madsenj37 · 06-10-2003, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by queedo
Reality is hard for you, isn't it?

I fail to your point ... all you do is pose a question as if you are trying to belittle my opinion. Dont post in forums if you do not want to hear others opinions.

chavos · 06-10-2003, 11:15 PM

Thinking over queedo's "reality" quip, i've come to this. I think that its precisely becuase reality hits so hard that i've come to believe in God. I don't expect anyone else to follow my "example," but i have found many people with similar stories. I just wonder about anyone who tries to define "reality" to anyone else, from the televangelists who tell me that my theological creativity is "pride against the reality of God" or the atheists who think that i'm daydreaming. Have you lived my life? Have you had the thoughts and revelations i've experienced? If the answer is no, i don't know what you can tell me to belive. I take advice, but not orders.

Lebell · 06-10-2003, 11:32 PM

Gentlemen,

While I am sympathetic to passion, getting noses bent out of joint doesn't advance arguements, it just, well, gets noses out of joint.

Please play nice.

Thanks

queedo · 06-11-2003, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by madsenj37
I fail to your point ... all you do is pose a question as if you are trying to belittle my opinion. Dont post in forums if you do not want to hear others opinions.

I want to hear others opinions as long as they respect my opinions as well. As far as I am concerned everybody who posts here is right and correct, because everything posted here is a personal belief not a fact.

Loki · 06-11-2003, 06:41 AM

For some reason queedo, you are super-sensitive about your views... perhaps you've had other views enforced on you for a very long time, and only recently have been able to make a conscious decision regarding your beliefs?

(don't mind me, just my pathetic attempt at analysis ^^)

In answer to your original question, because its, well, nice, to think that a supreme being has nothing better to do then to sit around and watch your life, and respond to your prayers. I can understand how people can derive solace and joy from religion, even though i am not a religious person in the conventional sense.

Its kinda hard to be when you believe that the supreme power in the universe, and therefore "God" is Chance.

PS - chavos: I really hate being pedantic, but.. um... the basis of calculus IS geometry. Its technically possible to find any result obtained using calculus via geometry, provided you are capable of measuring a miniscule quantity

mentat · 06-11-2003, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WhoaitsZ
... you must believe in a god to distinquish (spelling rules) good from evil? eh?

did i miss a day of school?
-lost-

Certainly not. I was not implying that the God-less don't or can't know right from wrong...that's simply the prevailing Christian attitude towards atheists. The religious community believes that this knowledge comes from having a relationship with God. Christians have a standard guage of morality that is written out in the Bible and interpreted (very liberally, and very selfishly) by ministers every Sunday morning.

The atheist rejects such a notion of "moral laws". An atheist understands that morality is based on choice, not rules carved in stone. Therfore, the atheist chooses his/her own moral standards and lives by them on his/her own terms.

This bugs the Christians because they have to accept first that there are moral standards that exist independant of their church's moral strictures. I am not meaning to say that all Christains believe the same thing, but what they do believe is based on that one thing, the Bible - the key to "salvation".

MENTAT

WhoaitsZ · 06-11-2003, 10:13 AM

I understand your point Mentak. on behalf of fellow Christians and myself who try hard to not claim to know 'the answers', to not shun aethism, to not be holier than though, i apologize.

its always been "one bad apple ruins the harvest". now its desperation making me wish one or two good apples could create a harvest.

everyone please, please try to remember that not all Christian are bible-thumping snobs.

debaser · 06-11-2003, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mentat
It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the juice of Saphu the thoughts acquire speed.
The lips acquire stains.
The stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.

On an unrelated note, this is the best sig ever.

queedo · 06-11-2003, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by debaser
On an unrelated note, this is the best sig ever.

Yes it is for Mentat is the Quizacks Haterack! (SP?)

chavos · 06-11-2003, 11:48 PM

I'd be very careful in assigning what the "prevailing Christian view" is of anything. We are not a monolithic group of one mind. I recently read a great commentary on how we are simply 'companions'-the lating root of that being "those who eat bread together." As a church, we share bread that Christ provided, and hopefully we can come in to meaningful community, but we must not always agree with each other, or think the same way.

PS: Loki might realize that i failed Calc... Next time i'll use a metaphor i understand.

TaiModan · 06-12-2003, 07:45 AM

When you have a group as large and growing as the Christian community, it's impossible to have the whole 'Hive' mind that people tend to try and tack onto them. I will defend anybodies right to believe what they choose, but I choose not to believe.

mentat · 06-12-2003, 10:59 AM

Longest sig ever?

It's a quote from the first DUNE movie (1984), where the evil Baron's twisted counsel drinks a mind-enhancing stimulant and chants this mantra...

06-08-2003, 01:20 AM	#44 (permalink)
THE MAC GOD Insane Location: In front of my keyboard.	These people are what you call "Sunday Christians". They only live for God for one day (if that). Yes, there is corruption and wrong in the Church, but name one organization of power that doesn't. It's like the Catholic Church in the medieval times (fat priests telling people not to gluttonize and selling confessions)-absolute power corrupts absolutely. __________________ Why continue fighting? Is it for Love? Illusions. All as artificial as the Matrix itself, although only a human mind could invent something as insipid as Love.

06-09-2003, 11:57 AM	#48 (permalink)
mentat Upright Location: Earth	The reason church members get so offended at atheists is that atheists have no apparent guage of good and evil. They ignore the possibility that one can be a good, moral, and happy person, yet deny the existence of the unseen ghosts that rule the universe. If you're a Christian (of devout Jew, Hindu, Muslim, etc.), you know through your religious studies what others in your church should believe and act. But the atheist is elusive, determining right and wrong from all sources of wisdom and their own personal experiences. The church - all churches - preach to their minions that the ONLY way to be a good person is to believe in and obey God. They teach that even the greatest of human benefactors, if not part of God's "flock", are automatically damned to Hell. Mentat __________________ It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Saphu the thoughts acquire speed. The lips acquire stains. The stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.

06-10-2003, 06:57 PM	#59 (permalink)
GoldenOuroboros The Cheshire Grin... Location: An Aussie Outback	I had a very interesting quote said to me last night... 'How many atheists do you get in a fox hole..?' When man is staring death in the face he starts to pray... __________________ Can you see me grin grin grrriiiiinnnning?!

06-10-2003, 11:32 PM	#66 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Gentlemen, While I am sympathetic to passion, getting noses bent out of joint doesn't advance arguements, it just, well, gets noses out of joint. Please play nice. Thanks __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

06-12-2003, 10:59 AM	#75 (permalink)
mentat Upright Location: Earth	Longest sig ever? It's a quote from the first DUNE movie (1984), where the evil Baron's twisted counsel drinks a mind-enhancing stimulant and chants this mantra... __________________ It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Saphu the thoughts acquire speed. The lips acquire stains. The stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.

06-06-2003, 11:17 AM	#41 (permalink)
WhoaitsZ Crazy Location: right behind you...	my god can beat up your god! the whole idea of a Christian being better than an Atheist is bullshit . Aetheist are not 'better', either. we are all people, all different but equal. I have thought of giving myself my own title for years because sometimes it is embarresing to be a Christian... like: We have the holier than thous. We have the hate mongers like Jerry Fawell and Pat Robertson. we have people murdering abortion doctors, which is extreemly stupid. we have all kinds of bad shit in our name. but I am a Christian and i will continue to carry the weight for Christ. (it almost sounds like a christ complex, but i assure you it is not.) every type of person of ever race, sex, ethnic, creed or what have you have had their fair share of assholes and people who will go out of their way to destroy another's beliefe. so if a Christian becomes very judgemental or holier than though, realize they are false. it is against our code. as far as 'why must i persecuted for my beliefes?', good question. you shouldn't be given flak of any kind.... but it happens. and the post queedo threw at Lebell makes it incredably hard to respect queedo is he so easily flies off the handle himself, if you want respect, then fucking earn it. respect is something we are not privelaged to get and it isn't what we get for free. if you can't show respect yourself then you are far beyond worthiness to be respected. i hope you get some clarity.

06-08-2003, 01:23 AM	#45 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	indeed, i would say that most religions would have as many variations as adherants. But how does a true athiest deal with the problem of good and evil? With out a God or other absolute moral standard, they can't really condemn evil, even if they are personally moral, etc..., because they only have their personal moral standards to express. If you can live with this, fine, but i found it quite untenable to say to myself that the horror and cruelty of the world was just behavior that i personally didn't engage in. Accepting that my disgust was really an indication that there was a Right and Wrong (with capitol letters to indicat universality/asolutivity)...was probably the single most important decisions i've made.

06-08-2003, 12:53 PM	#47 (permalink)
TaiModan Banned Location: Nanaimo BC Canada	Ok, I really have to jump into this... First I'd like to state, that the dictionary defintion of things like Atheism and Religion are seriously outdated, and lack objectivity, to me Religion is what you believe (or disbelieve), BUT the definition of Religion still maintains some accuracy. Religion - A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. <--- nowhere do I see anything necessarily referring to a 'Supreme Being' devotion __ n. Ardent, often selfless affection and dedication, as to a person or principle. If you look at it like this, suddenly Atheism fits under the realm of religion, as by definition it is the dedication to a principle, as well as the fact that it's all a Theological issue. Next, the issue of Good and Evil. Chavos asks how a true athiest deals with the problem of good and evil, without a God or other absolute moral standard. Well, as far as I see it, we do have a moral standard that need not rely on religious threats of eternal torment, or other such otherworldly retribution. What stands between us and total Chaos? the knowledge that if everyone decides to go do everything on a whim, and eliminate anyone who stands in their way, NOBODY prospers. The more common belief is that no God means no afterlife. Then why doesnt every Atheist in the world go run rampant and kill, loot, whatnot? I think it's because most people have some form of empathy, or conscience, that dictates, if I do this, someone else may get hurt, and if I do it, then whats to stop the next guy from doing the same, and maybe this time having a detremental affect on MY life? Others may see it differently, and thats ok, but the point is that altho religion helps give people more of a reason than just "Because I shouldn't do it" and gives them an easy way of expressing WHY they shouldn't, doesn't mean that it's the only way of holding a moral standard. Sure, some people dont hold to my level of morality, and some even think some/many of my own actions immoral, but in the end we have to trust that others will have a reason of some sort to refrain from that deemed "Evil" ok, I'm starting to ramble as my train of thought finds itself in the middle of a maze... imma go away for now...

06-09-2003, 02:11 PM	#49 (permalink)
WhoaitsZ Crazy Location: right behind you...	... you must believe in a god to distinquish (spelling rules) good from evil? eh? did i miss a day of school? -lost-

06-09-2003, 08:34 PM	#52 (permalink)
TaiModan Banned Location: Nanaimo BC Canada	Bring a God into things, and stuff gets muddy. Thou Shalt Not Kill. Crusades anyone? Witch burnings? I don't remember anything in the 10 commandments with sub-clauses... "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery (unless she's REALLY hot, and her husband is a jackass)" People stand behind these things, until they no longer pay out. Oh, it's ok, god doesnt consider those people to be "Real People" because they don't 'Believe' ...... maybe I should stop now.

06-10-2003, 05:59 PM	#56 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	Ad hominem attacks are not a good way to advance your argument.

06-10-2003, 07:43 PM	#62 (permalink)
WhoaitsZ Crazy Location: right behind you...	gold dood that's so not helping us out here

06-10-2003, 11:15 PM	#65 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	Thinking over queedo's "reality" quip, i've come to this. I think that its precisely becuase reality hits so hard that i've come to believe in God. I don't expect anyone else to follow my "example," but i have found many people with similar stories. I just wonder about anyone who tries to define "reality" to anyone else, from the televangelists who tell me that my theological creativity is "pride against the reality of God" or the atheists who think that i'm daydreaming. Have you lived my life? Have you had the thoughts and revelations i've experienced? If the answer is no, i don't know what you can tell me to belive. I take advice, but not orders.

06-11-2003, 06:41 AM	#68 (permalink)
Loki Psycho Location: Drifting.	For some reason queedo, you are super-sensitive about your views... perhaps you've had other views enforced on you for a very long time, and only recently have been able to make a conscious decision regarding your beliefs? (don't mind me, just my pathetic attempt at analysis ^^) In answer to your original question, because its, well, nice, to think that a supreme being has nothing better to do then to sit around and watch your life, and respond to your prayers. I can understand how people can derive solace and joy from religion, even though i am not a religious person in the conventional sense. Its kinda hard to be when you believe that the supreme power in the universe, and therefore "God" is Chance. PS - chavos: I really hate being pedantic, but.. um... the basis of calculus IS geometry. Its technically possible to find any result obtained using calculus via geometry, provided you are capable of measuring a miniscule quantity

06-11-2003, 10:13 AM	#70 (permalink)
WhoaitsZ Crazy Location: right behind you...	I understand your point Mentak. on behalf of fellow Christians and myself who try hard to not claim to know 'the answers', to not shun aethism, to not be holier than though, i apologize. its always been "one bad apple ruins the harvest". now its desperation making me wish one or two good apples could create a harvest. everyone please, please try to remember that not all Christian are bible-thumping snobs.

06-11-2003, 11:48 PM	#73 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	I'd be very careful in assigning what the "prevailing Christian view" is of anything. We are not a monolithic group of one mind. I recently read a great commentary on how we are simply 'companions'-the lating root of that being "those who eat bread together." As a church, we share bread that Christ provided, and hopefully we can come in to meaningful community, but we must not always agree with each other, or think the same way. PS: Loki might realize that i failed Calc... Next time i'll use a metaphor i understand.

06-12-2003, 07:45 AM	#74 (permalink)
TaiModan Banned Location: Nanaimo BC Canada	When you have a group as large and growing as the Christian community, it's impossible to have the whole 'Hive' mind that people tend to try and tack onto them. I will defend anybodies right to believe what they choose, but I choose not to believe.