victorjara

I need to hear from other parents, especially if you have been in this situation, but anybody feel free to weigh in if you want.

My sixteen year old daughter, who has been living with her mother since a divorce 11 years ago, informed me last year that she was pregnant. My grandchild was born 10 months ago, a beautiful boy. I accepted the pregnancy and child, but asked some questions and found out the dad was 20, and she had just turned 16 at the time. In our state, that is a felony. So against my daughter's loud protests, as her father, and her legal guardian, I pressed charges. He pleaded guilty and was put on probation. He is not allowed to contact her.

From that moment, my daughter, who has always been a handful, became highly hate filled towards me, accusing me of making the guy a felon, purposely going the extra mile not to listen to me on anything. Her mother is a softie, so over the years I have had to be the one to set limits and enforce them, making me the bad guy. A limit I have is not to let her cuss me out, which she has done since the shit hit the fan, so I have to make a stand. It's ugly.

As her legal guardian, I need for him to take a paternity test and pay child support if he is the dad. My daughter will have none of this and told me to fuck off, not stick my nose in her business.

My daughter requested a court hearing to ask if the guy could begin seeing her and the baby. At the same time, I gave her one month to have him get a paternity test (I know they had been talking). The month passed, so I called his probation officer who informed me of the hearing my daughter requested. So I told my daughter I would show up at the hearing and fight her request and ask for a paternity test and child support. She said if I did, that would be the end of my relationship with her and my grandson. But I had to do what was right (in my mind). We went to court and not side by side. She made her request and I made mine. I got what I wanted, and he still may not see her or the child, and must get tested.

Until he steps up like a man, and gets tested and supports the child if it is his, I see no reason why this man who victimized my child and entire family should be allowed these rights. But my daughter, not unlike many victims of this crime, doesn't see herself as a victim of a felony. All her rage is focused upon me.

I bought a car for her 5 months ago when she graduated high school, and have been holding it until she turns 18 in January and can get a license. Even though she really needs it she told me sell the car, she doesn't want it.

As her father and legal guardian, I feel the need to fight for her rights and those of my grandson, at least till she turns 18 even if she does not understand, and even if I must lose contact with her. She was 16 when this crime was committed against her, and now is 17 1/2.

Have I done what I should have? Or am I off base? What must I do? I do love her, and am willing to keep a relationship with her (if she stops cussing at me). I feel really alone. I asked her if I could see my grandson on Sundays for 2 hours and her reply was "stop harassing me, go to family court if you want visitation".

Dane Bramage

I am not a parent, but I grew up resenting my father because he left my mom, sister and I when I was very young, so I know how difficult it can be to get over deep resentments to a parent. It happened when I was about 4 or 5; I am now 34 and still don't have a great releationship with him.

I hope you don't take what I say here to badly. It's just my opinion.

You are obviously very angry, but I'm not sure if you are angry at her, yourself or the guy that did it to her. You seem to be very hung up on the idea that this guy victimzed your daughter. I would bet that she was a willing participant in the event. Sure it is a felony to have sex with a 15 year old, but I don't really see that as a crime on the same level as rape. Even calling it Statutory Rape has deep connotations that I don't really think belong here. Sex with a minor definately, but that's a whole differnt thing.

She is also very upset with you at the moment. She obviously wants this man in her life, and unless the guy is a total bum, the baby certainly deserves to have a relationship with his father.

I would say that a compromise would be in order. I know the lines of communication have been destroyed between you two, so this is the hard part. You are going to have to back down on your position if you want her to back down on hers. You drew first blood, so it's has to be you that extends the offer first. I would suggest letting the guy see the baby in exchange for the test/child support (perhaps that is already in the work because of the most recent court ruling). How long is he on probation for? Once it is over, can he see them once the probation ends?

The bottom line is that unless you do something to fix this problem your daughter will leave the house in six months, take the kid, and it may be a very long time before you see either of them again. Granted, I don't know anything about her financial situation, so this may not even be a possiblity, but I'm sure she is trying to figure it out. At this point, all you are doing is breeding resentment and that can be a very difficult thing to overcome.

Understanding is the key in situations like this. You must try to understand what she is going through. As much as you feel like she has screwed up her life... it is still her life.

I wish you the best of luck. You have a hard road ahead, and I sincerely hope that you may find a way to put your family back together.

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Averett

I don't know what to say, other than that the child is growing up without a father. It seems like the man would like to have a part in the childs life. But he can't, because of your actions.

You've got a long way to repair the damage done to the relationship with your daughter. I'm not sure how to go about it. Maybe you should have a meeting with your ex-wife and discuss the situation.

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Redlemon

This is going to sound harsh, and I'm sorry about that. It might be just how you wrote the above-quoted passage, and you could clarify it further.

So, you divorced when your daughter was 5, and the way you phrased "informed me" sounds like you haven't really been involved in her life in those intervening years. She hadn't had a father figure, and instead latched onto this guy.

Now, you suddenly get involved in a big way, but not a good way; you are doing everything to remove this guy from her life, who is her emotional center right now. Of course she will hate you for that. I know nothing of your daugher or her boyfriend, perhaps he is a heel, but it is also possible that there could be real love there.

If this isn't accurate, please correct me.

moonstrucksoul

wow, seems like quite the house of cards. I can definitely understand your rage about what has happened. you cannot change what has happened, but you can do your best to make it better for the child. a few times in your post you said "if" he is the father. Now what are you saying about your daughter? Do you think she was sleeping with many guys? There seems to be some underlying anger with your daughter. Is this guy some total loser? What do you really know about him? I realize that age difference could be hard to get over, but what's done is done. time to make the best of it. Unless this guy is just some street thug, then I might suggest that you give him/them a chance. Remember, she's almost 18, after then , she will do what she wants to do.

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98MustGT

I feel your pain, I have 3 daughters 20, 18, 15. Now for the harsh part, statisticly you know that girls who do not have a strong father figure in the house are attracted to older boys/men and are far more likely to have sex with them shortly after puberty. I am not sure what role you played in her life in the past 10 years but it sounds as though it was minimal (correct me if I am wrong) so you have must take some blame here. That said it time to stop parenting and start guiding. You need to make a decision whether you want a relationship with your daughter/grandson and boyfriend or not.

If so - suck it up and apologize to your daughter for not being there for her and accept some blame. Take the boyfriend out to a ballgame without your daughter, find out what he is about and what his intentions are. Treat them as you would neighbors asking you for you opinion on things. No more controlling. (this will not be easy to do)

If not - wash your hands of this and accept the fact that soon she will be 18 and there is a good chance you will have little contact with this family as they move forward in their lives.

canuckguy

not sure what to say, i do send my hopes and prayers with your family and hope you can make it through this tough time.

victorjara

Thank you all for your replies. I am listening, and I am striving for understanding.

Dane, I think that the guy might be a total bum, but I'm not sure. He's 22 now, and came to court in a white undershirt almost down to his knees. He speaks no English, has no education, and barely making minimum wage. He lives with his mom, who has no knowledge about any of this. It has always been my position that he should have a big part in the baby's life, but ONLY AFTER he has stepped up like a man and accepted paternity and set up regular child support payments, even if they are just token at this time. My daughter is completely against this for some reason.

Averett- the man is more than welcome, from my perspective, to have a part in the child's life IF he has stepped up like a man...etc..etc. see above paragraph. He can't have a relationship now because of MY actions? I'm not the one who committed a felony against a child, and her family. He is in trouble because of his own actions. I am just making sure that the law as it is on the books, is being applied.

Redlemon - Yes, my ex has custody of my daughter and has throughout our divorce. I have always paid child support fully and on time, had the kids over for the weekends, followed through on their health care issues, and tried to participate in the important moments of their lives. But I know that I have missed out on a lot of her development. I know that about three years ago my daughter started hanging out and emulating gang individuals, which is when I had to turn up the attention, and boundry setting with her. And again, I'm not trying to remove him from her life, but to just have him accept paternity and support the child like a true man would do.

98MustGT- Yes I found those statistics (too late), and of course I want a relationship with them, I can suck it up, and accept a large portion of the blame as to why she is the way that she is, but as of yet, I still want him to accept paternity and make support payments. All my efforts (besides the initial prosecution) are towards those ends only. As for now, there is no chance of the ballgame, or even a civil communication with my daughter. If I called, she would hang up on me. And I don't know how I am going to see my grandson, short of going to get visitation rights in family court.

Thank you all for your input. I can take it, even if it is harsh. I am trying to understand. But doesn't anyone see it my way? Any dads out ther in similar situation? Keep the replies coming and God bless.

DJ Happy

You keep insisting that he not be granted access to the baby until he takes a paternity test, but from my understanding of what I've read here, he's not challenging the paternity. He seems to have acknowledged that he's the father, so why do you keep insisting on the test? Ditto for child support. You haven't said anywhere that he won't pay it. Maybe he and your daughter had an arrangement/plan in that regard that you obstructed when you started taking legal action.

slimshaydee

I'm sorry to say that but...
it's no wonder your daughter hates you. Your daughter obviously has a thing for this guy, and you step into her way and make everything bad for her. I'm not a father myself, but I'm pretty sure there's this fatherly thing that doesn't want their little girl to grow up. Let me pose to you this question: if you were in your daughters situation, what would you do? Would you sit back and say "oh please press charges against the man I love dad, please stop him from seeing his child". No I don't think you would. You are being too much of a hard ass on her.

cj2112

I too understand why your daughter is upset. However her behavior shows me that she is still very much a child and needs you to set strong boundaries for her. Would I have done the same thing in your situation? If the guy is a negative influence in her life, ABSOLUTELY. Now having said that, I would suggest sitting down with your daughter and having a rational conversation with her. Let her know that as a father it is your responsibility to look out for her, and as a grandfather you will always look out for this baby. Do this not as an authority figure, but with love and patience. If you wish to continue the relationship w/ your daughter and grandchild, you may have to make some concessions, and let her make her mistakes, however I don't think it is unreasonable for you to ask that she at least meets you halfway.

Seer666

Touchy issue. Hope this doesn't sound to bad but...
Point 1. If he is saying it is his, then the hell with the test. He admits it, and if his name is on the birth certificate, that is leagly binding UNLESS a test proves other wise. So, if he put his name down as the dad, he HAS stepped up to the plate, and you need to rethingk your stance here. If he wants to be a father to this child, then good for him. It is more then many want to do.

Point 2. From what I am reading, while you try to be a part of your daughters life, you are not the main focus of it. That means that from her view, you are there to lend support, not disapline. Yes, you are her father, and you should do whatever you can to help her, even if it is not what she wants at the time, but, Would you want someone you only see on the weekends to tell you how to run your life? Not an attack on you my friend, just wanting you to see what may be her veiw. This hard line stance you are take, given the realationship as I perseive it from these words ona web page, is probably not the best way to go if you want her to think happy thoughts of you later in life.

Point 3. You insistance on your daughter being avictom her may not be right. Kids grasp this world at a frighteningly young age these days, and while in someways they still are kids, they are also a lot more grown up then the older generations were at there age. If I was a father, I would shot the son of a bitch that touched my little girl, but at the same time, i would also have to face that it was something SHE desided to do as well. Unless it was flat out rape, and then niothing could save the fucker from my wrath. But, don't view her as a victim here. Treat her like a thinking adult. I'm sure that is all she really wants, and your hard line stance is a slap in the face to her veiw of herself as a free minded person.

Sit down and talk to her, like an adult, and let her know how you you worry and fear for her, and how much you love her. Don't come off angry, or talk down to her. You will lose her in a flash if you do. find out what she wants, and find a way that you can both live with this situation and each other. What you think of this man, in the lopng term, has no relivence to the situation. Once she is 18, if she wants to be with him, she will, and you can do nothing about it. Don't lose a child here man, gain a family.

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shakran

i'm gonna dissent from the majority here (try to contain your shock everyone) and say that you not only didn't go too far, you're not going far enough.

She's living in a fantasy world that she can have this kid and not have to hold him responsible for it because mommy and daddy are paying for it. She needs to learn that there are consequences to being stupid (and having sex at 16 is the epitome of stupid) and that if she doesn't want to step up to the plate and do what needs to be done (get child support) then she will have to bear those consequences. Namely, cut her the hell off for a while - it won't take long before she realizes that money is a necessary component to child rearing. Make her aware that until she's willing to hold her rapist (and I don't have a problem with statutory rape, btw. We're talking about adults having sex with children. That is unequivocably wrong) responsible for what he did, she won't get monetary support from you either.

She wants to have her cake and eat it too - have the baby fully funded without upsetting this guy that she thinks she loves. Unfortunately, that's not how the real world works, and the sooner she learns that the sooner she can start working toward being a responsible adult rather than a spoiled child.

*dons flameproof suit*

victorjara

Thanks for replies, they help me by giving me a wider set of viewpoints to consider than just my own. It appears that overwhelmingly you all think I screwed up.

DJ Happy, Seer666 - He has never officially accepted paternity. On the birth certificate, the space for father is blank. The only arrangement he has with my daughter for supporting the child is 'she doesn't ask and he doesn't pay'. But some day in the future the baby will start eating her out of house and home, and the father will be making more money, and if my daughter signs away her rights to support like she wants to do (out of some misguided loyalty, Stockholm Effect, love, or the subtle effects of adult-over-child coersion) it will be a big mistake. And I'm not going to let that happen while she is still on my watch.

Slimshadee - I am not the one who made things bad for my daughter. She was the one who made the choice to hang with the wrong people, she was the one who allowed herself to get too close to adults who did not have her best interests in mind, but wanted to use her for their own pleasure. She made things bad for herself, but as a child, was not fully responsible for her behavior, but the adults were, and I feel it is my responsibility, as her father, to hold them accountable.

cj2112 - As for now, sitting down with her would be out of the question. She will not do it. If I were to call, she would hang up and tell me to stop harassing her. So I think that letting some time go by is the only option for now. But I can use this time to try go gain a fuller understanding of the situation, rather than to just see it from my own personal perspective.

Shakran - Actually, she and the baby are living off the child support I am still sending her mom for her, which will cut off in December after 12 years. She also collects welfare, which I call charity. There are many programs available for teen moms who want to go to college (she's attending the local community college. for now). Actually, my assertive approach to this is edging her on to succeed in college, since she will go to any length to prove that I am full of shit, even getting good grades! (she nearlyt failed out of high school before she was pregnant by cutting class, not doing work, etc.---at the pregnant girls school she did better, because she didn't have to be there at a particular time, she picked up her work and did it at home, in order to graduate).

Thank you all for your responses. Please keep them coming.

MontanaXVI

I cannot input much here as this would be a difficult situation for anyone to deal with, but you keep stating this above as if your daughter was forced into having intercourse with this youg man, which from the sounds of things was not at all the case, but instead a willing event between two paricipants. Maybe to sit back and re-think the whole pressing of the charges for that and MAYBE, MAYBE I say you will have a little more success in getting your daughter to understand what is going on and why you are trying to get him to pay up for the kid if it in fact is his.

From what I am reading you seem to be more upset by this guy being a "loser" if you will by your description of him in the court case scenario above....white undershirt to his knees speaks no english etc. You are upset with a guy who got your daughter pregnant and may not be willing to help support what he helped create, but I think you saw a way to get more "even" by using the whole age thing as well, when all you wanted was your daughter and this guy to be responsible for their actions.

If any of this is unclear or rambling I aplogize like I said above it is hard for me to relate just respond to what I get from the one sided story above, not to mention I am only 28 and have no kids of my own (unless you count my 2 dogs ) :/

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Dane Bramage

The picture does get a little clearer, Victor.

You characterize this guy as a bum and say that your daughter has run around with the wrong crowd (gang types). I now have a better perspective on this, and I can even see why you did what you did. There is not much worse IMO than someone not taking responsibility for their actions. Unfortunately, getting him convicted of SR hasn't forced him to take responsibility, and all it has done is drive a wedge between you and your daughter.

This may sound like a flip flop, but I belive you have the justification for your actions. Not because he victimized your daughter, but because he is not being the man/father that he should (assuming he is the father). Living up to responsiblity is a measure of a person. He has obviously not done that.

Being justified in your actions, does not solve your problem, however. This is really the issue at heart. She is young and doesn't totally understand life yet. What it means to be a single mother with no money/insurance, etc. I understand this is why you have done what you have done. You are being a good parent... but again, that is now what's at issue here. You now have to come to a very hard decision. Either you cave on your position and work things out somehow, or you stick to your guns and your daughter probably walks out of your life.

Perhaps letting her have a go at it on her own is not such a bad idea. She may realize that you were right all along. Just let her go in such a way that she knows that she can always come back. Make sure she realizes that you love her and just want what's best for her and her child. Then give her space and see what happens.

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Every passing hour brings the Solar System forty-three thousand miles closer to Globular Cluster M13 in Hercules — and still there are some misfits who insist that there is no such thing as progress.
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slimshaydee

Once again you act like the guy flat out held her against her will and forcefully raped her. Do you ever think that she wanted to participate in the act or not. It may be statutory rape, but this is one area of the law I think needs to be updated. I see nothing wrong with a 20 year old having sex with a 16 year old, so long as the 16 year old is completely of sound mind and a willing participant. 16 year olds are ALOT more mature than they were in your generation. I'm 20 myself, and I'm sure that there are 16 year old girls a hell of alot more mature than me who can handle what comes to them (and no I wouldn't have sex with a 16 year old btw, because 18 year olds are hotter ). Did you ever stop to think that she wants her baby to have a daddy in her life, because you were never there for her when she was a kid? Give the guy a chance to show that he can be a good father to your grandchild. It sure as hell will help the kid growing up.

gondath

I'm not necessarily against the idea of underage sex, but having a child at only 16 is stupid beyond any reason. She proved through that act alone she is not mature. Underage pregnancy is never a good idea. She needs the guidance of someone more rational than herself, like her father.
If your description is accurate, the guy does seem like your average loser. Nail him to the wall whether your daughter likes it or not. Sometimes you have to be tough to be kind. He needs to pay money towards his child, which it does not sound like he will do willingly. Maybe you should have a talk with the guy and let him know where his responsibilities lie.
Whatever you decide to do, don't let this alone. Don't let your daughter's child suffer because of her foolish choices.

SecretMethod70

A couple things to say here:

First, I don't disagree with your actions really. Perhaps you could have gotten across the importance of them to your daughter better, but I get the impression that you tried and she's simply to young and naive to understand.

A lot of comments have pointed out that he did not forcably have sex with her. This is true. However, the reason we have statutory rape laws is because when there is an age difference such as this one, it is easy to coerce the child - and that's what she is - into sex. She thinks she's in love; he's enjoying a good "lay."

The fact is, ignoring the nice "moral" reasons for trying to do what you're trying to do, I'm going to look at it from a "selfish" perspective. Right now, YOU are funding her and her child's life. It sounds to me - especially given that she's on welfare and hanging out with gangbangers - that her mom is pretty much a deadbeat too. If you don't mind my asking, why don't you have custody, and why didn't you fight to get custody once it became clear her mother was not providing any authority? Either way, with a deadbeat mom and the guy not paying child support - and her not WANTING him to - YOU are the one funding her and this child. Even if you get him to pay child support, she will simply return it to him. However, the good side of it is that when she finally realizes she needs it, she may start to keep it.

And now for the "harsh" part: I think she's a lost cause. By this time in her life, I don't think there's much you can do to help her see the "error of her ways" so to speak. Make sure she knows you'll always be ready and there if and when she decides she would like to speak with you again, but when she turns 18, *DO NOT GIVE HER ANYTHING.* Yes, it's hard considering it's your grandchild, but if you continue to support her out of guilt or love or whatever after she is 18, YOU will end up being the financial father to this child - and whether or not you get this guy to pay child support won't matter because, like I said, she'll just return it or find some way to not use it. Not only will you be their financial support now, but you will be for a significant time to come. And it will only perpetuate her own irresponsibility, because whenever you decide to stop, there will always be welfare available as well. At this point, I would do what's best for YOU financially, while trying to secure the future of your daughter and grandchild. Make sure that she has child support to lean on once she's 26, living on the streets and off welfare and hasn't talked to this guy in 6 years, but don't give her ANY money until she starts acting more like an adult and more like the parent that she now is (if that ever happens which I don't think it will). Hopefuly, when she's working in McDonald's in her mid-20's she'll realize that she can lead a better life and perhaps reinitiate a relationship with you. Once she realizes she has more worth, then help her all you want.

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onetime2

Like others, I tend to think you are heading in the right direction but took a path filled with brambles. I'm certain it was not an easy decision (if I'm mistaken and it was then that should tell you it wasn't the right one) and I have little doubt that a large part of your actions was looking out for your daughter and grandchild.

But, from your writing it seems that you have taken the act that resulted in your grandchild as an affront to your family and yourself. You portray it as a crime against your whole family.

This was certainly a crime and your daughter is, in a way, a victim but she is not nearly the victim that the law treats her as. I hope that you see this too. She's guilty of making bad decisions and the man in her life is guilty of slightly more than that since he had to know what he was doing was illegal. But they are both really just kids. It's possible that this man could mature and be a stand up guy. It may not happen in the time frame that you would like but no court is going to force him to mature. This man will hopefully be in this child's life for the next several decades. The actions you've already taken and those you take in the very near future will color the relationship you have with him, your daughter, and your grandchild. Beyond that your attitude and actions will shape the relationship your grandchild has with your daughter and its father.

Your daughter seems to have written you off right now. What about the father? If you want him to start acting like a man perhaps it's time you treated him as one (whether he's proven that he deserves it or not). Talk to him and explain the things you've outlined in this thread. He probably understands a lot of your concerns and he probably shares a lot of them. He may just surprise you. You can't dictate the pace of him taking responsibility but you may be able to remove some of the barriers to it.

And please, do not use the support you provide to her as a lever. You want what's best for your daughter and grandchild. I hope that you would consider continuing the support so long as it's being used responsibly by her to care for herself and the child.

Good luck.

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xxdrewshadexx

You should have considered the consequences before you pressed charges. The young man will have a hard time getting a job and a residency if he was indeed charged and convicted (Prob now a sex offender) Your daughter having sex with a older man was consensual (only a couple of months make it legal or not) and was old enough to make a decision to have sex and now she has to deal with the consequences of not having her babies father in her life, because of you. What the young man did was stupid, they dont call it jail bait for a reason. The bottom line is that he will almost never find appropriate work, will have a hard time finding a place to stay (society doesnt rent to those convicted of sex crimes) and your grandchild will grow up, maybe knowing you or probably not. Your daughter was not a victim of a crime but a voluntary partner in a consensual act (older or not) and she is aware of that. She is also aware that you took someone from her against her will (which should be a crime) Preventing, for the time being of the father to be there and starting a cycle of life that is probably going to be repeated. Im not saying you should be ashamed of your actions, but you sow what you reap.

xxdrewshadexx

* a note to add, although it is commonly reffered to as statutory rape. In most states the term statutory rape does not exist. The young man was probably charged with unlawful sex with a minor or lude and lascivious. Statutory rape is a term thrown about becaue people watch to much tv, and it sounds better that lude and lascivious acts with a minor.

Once again being charged with a sex crime *statisticley prohibits any young adult from leading a productive lives. They are lumped together with child molestors, and real rapists.

88 percent of girls under the age of 16 who become pregnant the father is 5-8 years older. Only about 8 percent of those cases are tried in court, and that is only the number reported because the girls become pregnant.

victorjara

Thank you all for your responses.

xxdrewshadexx

I appreciate your comments, as I am trying to explore all sides of this issue. To clarify, He is on probation for three years, no jail time, and if he keeps out of trouble (I don't think he will be doing this to any more young girls), it will be reduced to a misdemeanor, and possible deleted from his record all together eventually. He is not considered a sex offender. According to the law and to my opinion, a girl, who had just turned 16, (not a couple of months to make it legal, 1.8 years actually in my daughter's case), does not have the ability, self-knowledge, and/or emotional maturity to consent to sex. I did not prevent him from seeing my daughter and the child, the law did. His voluntary actions in disregarding the law, brought about the consequence of no contact, at least until his probation is modified. And as of how my opinion is right now, I will continue to fight modification until he gets tested and my grandson has a father's name on his birth certificate, and child support is happening. Then I am all for him being a dad to the baby. I don't see that as being unreasonable. And it's a good thing that I did press charges; otherwise I would have no leverage over him to ensure he does the responsible thing for the baby.

I guess, as a parent, when someone harms your child or commits a crime against them, the instinct is to circle up the wagons, and fight to protect them. Irregardless of the reasons (which I see as her lack of understanding of adult responsibilities) I can see that this situation is also harming my daughter, perhaps more than the original crime.

Update: This weekend, for the first time in 10 months, my 17 year old daughter refused to let me visit the baby, even though I have been visiting him regularly up till now, and my child support is paying for the roof over his (and her) head, and my medical benefits provided for his birth and neonatal care. So, I made an appointment to see a lawyer, as I will probably have to go to Family Court to invoke my grandparent visitation rights. What a pity. She said that since it is my fault that the dad can't see the baby, then I can't either. That's an opinion that several of the posters share, but I don't as of yet see it that way. Thank you all for your opinions, and please keep 'em coming.

shakran

That sentence bears repeating. You hit the nail on the head.

To those of you who think 16 year olds are more mature now than they used to be, that's bullshit. They know more about sex. They think more about sex. They have more sex. But that does NOT make them more mature.

I can drive a ferarri, but that doesn't make me a race car driver.

The fact that some kids are having sex at 16 does not make them mature.

victorjara

I've had a little shift in my perspective, and am feeling a little hopeful.

I've been thinking about...what is God's will in all of this?

I don't think it is about tearing my family apart, even if I am right. I can be right and still my family will be destroyed. The father's job is to preserve and protect the family.

I think that any more "tough love" on my part will just further escalate the situation and make it all the more difficult than ever to resolve. I think I've done enough.

It's time to mellow out my anger and resentment against this guy. Those emotions will only cause me and everyone else more trouble. This situation has really hurt me, and each of my family in a different way. That was his crime. I think everyone has felt enough pain. He's going to be tested. He will eventually be hooked into child support, and he is doing his probation time. I think he probably has learned his lesson. I think (hope) my daughter has had a wake up call, as have I, regarding my own strategy in this crisis. It's possible to be 100% right and dead wrong.

I'm not sure what actions to take from this point on, and how to go about the rebuilding. I think it is time to let my daughter make her own decisions, and just try to be there for when she falls, to give her a shoulder to boost up with (without being an enabler). It may take a long time before there is even any contact, but I think that I'm through with courts etc. Someone said that I need to be the first one to compromise. I guess it's time to just be a spectator. Perhaps, at some point not too distant, she will have a spurt of growth and compromise a bit and let me see my grandson.

I think in a couple of days, I'll write her a letter, telling her of this and reminding her of my eternal love, and letting her know that my path was my best efforts at trying to help her, and asking forgiveness and understanding for any mistakes I might have made in the process.

I should probably just have written this in my journal, but you all have been so helpful, I thought that I need to put it here. Feel free to chime in.

mokle

Sounds like she's far too immature to run her own life.

But as long as she wants to act like an adult, she should live like an adult. I see no reason for you to continue paying support and contributing medical, other than your own generosity.

Maybe when she can't aford to eat she will see how bad of a desicion it was.

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Mokle
"Your hands can't hit what your eyes can't see" -Ali

SecretMethod70

well, if he's going to take the test and get legally locked into child support, I agree with your assessment. That's what's necessary to protect her from her own misguidedness and it seems as though it's taken care of now.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

MSD

The only way to really know if you screwed up or not is to wait a really long time and see fi your daughter is still resentful or if she turns around and thanks you. Anything else is subjective, so I'll just throw out my opinion and let you decide whether I'm a wise fool or a rambling idiot.

If you want my opinion, pressing charges against the father of the child was the wrong thing to do. From the way your initial post was written, it sounds like you had little contact with your daughter until you heard about the kid. It is said that actions speak louder than words, and what you did came across to your daughter as putting a bullhorn to her ear and screaming "YOU FUCKED UP AND I'LL NEVER LET YOU FORGET IT." You maintain that this guy harmed your child, when she obviously doesn't think so.

On to the next point. People can debate until they're blue in the face about when someone is responsible enough to have sex, but it's really an individual thing that shouldn't be generalized. My feelings on the subject are that sex should be openly discussed and any questions answered from an early age, and that doing so should enable a young adult to understand what is involved and make a decision for himself or herself. Later on in the thread, you used the phrase "What is God's will," which inidcates to me that 1: sexuality probably wasn't an open topic for discussion between you and your daughter, and 2: you probably disagree with what I said anyway.

The last issue I want to address is your repetition of the assertion that he needs to "step up like a man." This suggests a few things. First, you're approaching this from a very traditional standpoint, in which the father should provide for the family and the mother should raise the kids. Second, it indicates a macho attitude was engrained in your mind as a child, and that your father did his best to hammer this mantra into your mind and raise you to be a very traditional person. Through all of this, you are divorced from your wife, she has had custody of your child, and she hasn't raised the child as you would have. You can see from what I said above that I'm assuming you were raised in a traditional family, and assuming this, the fact that your family did not follow that model is emotionally traumatic to you. To combat this and "set things right," you have fully supported your children financially, seen them at every possible time, and tired to be there at every important time in their lives. The problem with this is that you still feel obliged to keep that traditional family structure, and being divorced does not allow you to do that. In order to fulfill your obligation, you are now trying to force your daughter to adopt that structure. This is why you were able to handle the news of the pregnancy, but freaked out and reacted so strongly when they weren't adhereing to your mental blueprint.

The only way to resolve the issue is to compromise. Unfortunately for you, your daughter will not be the one to do it. There are a few ways to look at what is the right thing to do. In this situation, it looks like the motive of your action was good, but the results didn't turn out to be good. If a good motivation doesn't work, the only other thing left to do is to take action motivated solely by the result. Go against the inner voice that tells you that you did the right thing and should stick by it, it's not going to patch up your relationship with your daughter.

Right now, you need to do what will give you the best results. Step up, be a big man, and admit that you might have reacted too strongly. If you do, you'll have the opportunity to see your grandson come running through the door, smiling, and rushing to give you a big hug when they visit you. If not, you'll be lucky if you see them at all.

Flyguy

My opinion:

I don’t know the specifics about your daughter’s situation, but if she's still that pissed at you, she's going to leave the house when she's 18 and you won't see her or the baby again for a long time. Your daughter was a willing participant in the creation of this child, so I have a hard time accepting the rape thing. Yes, technically it's a crime to have sex with a minor but that law was written by people who think that sex is a dirty thing that should be swept under the rug. I don't really believe that it's effective at all. I think that you're just mad because somebody "violated" your child and you're pissed about it. You want to get even. And in the course of your getting even you've destroyed the lines of communication with your daughter. Like I wais, she was a willing participant so I have a hard time believing that it was rape. Even if she was 16. I think that law is bullshit but at the same time it's not good if 20 years olds are fucking 14 year olds either. I think that every situation should be viewed differently. Bottom line, you're going to have to give a little if you want to see your grandchild.

SecretMethod70

This is entirely true, and if someone is getting pregnant at 16 they're clearly not responsible enough to be having sex. Unfortunately, this is obviously too late to recognize the problem.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Goat Boy

Hey uh... hasn't she lived with her mother for 11 of her 16 years on this planet?

I really don't want to be rude, but I have to tell you the first thing that came to my mind, as a bastard child, was:

"Oh, now you want to chime in. Well fuck you buddy."

You're not really a "father", you're more of a sperm donor and a check-writer.

I also don't think it's very manly of you to use some puritanical American laws to seriously damage some guys family & future, because he was born too soon.

My girlfriend is 4 yrs younger than I am and we've been together for 6 years, I'm 25, you do the math, I guess I'm REALLY lucky her dad isn't such a prick.

BTW, and this is just opinion, but isn't a father sticking his nose so far into his daughter's bedroom life, a little.... perverted, creepy, gross?

Not to mention your stubborness isn't gonna change anything for the positive. It will however multiply any negative feelings toward you. Consequently, fucking you out of the joy of being a grandparent.

Is your point of view THAT important?

Hash_Browns

Ok, I understand that you have had a change of heart, but there are a few things I would like to say, that I didn't notice mentioned elsewhere.

First off, you have openly admitted that you had knowledge of her hanging with certain 'gang' crowds, and being with people you'd rather not see her with. Well, I have to sit back and ask, Where were you then? I don't hear you saying that you did anything to keep her away from them...Restraining orders...yadda yadda. Yes, they are hard to come by without a reason behind them, I know that. But it doesn't keep you from turning her away from them to get her into something better. Take time out of your life and treat her out to dinner instead of letting her hang on the streets with her new 'friends'. It is possible you know, that you could have cut this off before it even got started by being there for her and talking to her about the results of her actions, any of which she could have been making at this time, and all of which could have turned out differently. I have to admit that hearing you say you didn't do anything until 10 months after the baby was born, and only after she opened up to you with the truth and shared her life with you, did you finally see you needed to do something. A little late don't you think?? The baby can't go back, the sex act can't be removed from her memory and your little daughter isn't goint to act like a child but like a Mother, because like it or not, 17 or not, your daughter or not, she is a MOM now and has more on her mind then you think she might. The time for intervention passed you by a long time ago.

Can you prove this guy hasn't given her any money? Can you prove this guy and your daughter didn't have something that was in the process of flourishing? Did you take into consideration that your daughter has watched her Mother raise her 'on her own' (yes we know you send child support and pay all their bills, but she lives with her Mom, that fact stares her right in the face everyday...not a check that does in the bank that she probibly doesn't see physically)? Maybe she wants to do this on her own, and doesn't want any kind of ties with the guy? Maybe if the guy is forced to pay child support, then your daughter will be forced to give him visitation and she doesn't want to deal with that?? Maybe this guy has 'gang' friends who will take his being arrested a little to far and hold it against her or her child?? Yes, some of these things are a bit over annalized, but to a young mother whom you have stated yourself is still thinking like a child, they can stand out hugely and fog any reasonable thought.

Now that that is out, I also want to say that what you did was honorable in a sense, as you were just trying to help your daughter, more then some would be willing to do. But before you do something like this, you really should take your daughter's feelings into consideration. Think about everything that has happened, and really think, then look at yourself in the mirror and say it was worth it....was it?

The other problem is this, if they did have a thing, do you really think that he is going to want to get caught up in a family battle and give his all to his son, to have grandpa try and come up with some new scheme to screw things up? Even if you never intend to intervene again, he has to worry about saying/doing the wrong thing and land himself in jail with more charges that he can't explain. He pleaded guilty, admitted to having sex with your daughter...that to me says he's 'manning up' to his actions. No it doesn't put his name on the birth certificate, but it shows he knows what he did, and obviously understands the results of those actions.

Plain and simple, my opinion isn't going to change what has happened or what will happen, but I felt the need to say a few things since you asked it of anyone willing to share. I hope that you and your family are well and that everything works out in the end. I also hope you do write that letter, because I think it's a great idea, and it will allow your daughter to read it at her own pace instead of it being thrown down her throat without a second to think.

Sincerely,
Hashbrowns

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SecretMethod70

I find it interesting all these assumptions that just because he's divorced he was not involved in his daughter's life before this. Maybe I missed something, but I don't think he said that. Not to mention, if that was the case, who's to say it was of his own doing?

From my point of view, damaging the guy's life has nothing to do with it. The father was refusing the legally admit paternity which would make it so that, in the future, he would not be obligated to pay child support. That doesn't strike me the least bit as someone who is 1) emotionally bound to her and 2) planning on taking responsibility for his kid.

Again, ANYONE who is not mature enough to be able to avoid getting pregnant and capable enough to handle the consequences is not mature enough or capable enough to be choosing to have sex. The very fact that she had a child at 16 is proof alone that she did not comprehend her actions in an adult manner. This is why legal ages of consent exist.

From what I've read, there were two options:
1) Let the guy avoid being recognized legally as the father thus allowing him a way out of EVER paying for the child's life. In X years, when they're no longer together (and they WON'T be, just like 99% of the cases like this - congratulations if you're one of the lucky few), he will have no legal obligation to be paying child support and victor's daughter will be living off of welfare (still) and relying on her parent's money to survive. She will have even LESS of an ability to ever get a college education (not that she has much of a chance as it is being a 16 your old mother) and she will pretty much permanently be living in lower-class status.

or 2) The father of the child is forced to be legally recognized and, thus, locked into paying child support. This helps to at least soften the issues that are already certain to arise by the simple fact she is a teen mother and clearly not making good decisions in her life hanging out with gangbangers, etc. Perhaps since the father is paying shild support she will be able to put the rest of her money towards something like a college education of some sort, allowing her to have a shot at getting a decent job with decent pay. She will hopefully not be living off welfare for a significant period of time, and she won't be relying on her parents to support her until she's 35.

I don't see where the debate is between the two. Now, the question is how one should handle the situation AFTER paternity is legally declared. In regards to that I think victor is on the right track. The security blanket is in place for his daughter, so nothing more needs to be done at this point. He's done the "parental" thing, and now is the time to mend the wounds. It'll take a lot of time and a lot of hard work, but it can be done. The fact of the matter is though, she won't understand any of this in a mature way until she's in her mid-20s or so. But, that doesn't mean to wait until then. The only way she'll ever understand that this was done for her and her child's financial protection is to SHOW her that continuously from this point on by NOT doing anything else since it has been accomplished. Continue to try and see her and her child, continue to call and write her letters, telling her how you love her and care for her and are sorry that this caused her pain etc. One can only hope that one day, after this guy does whatever he'll eventually do to end up leaving her and she's left without his moral support, but still his financial support at least, she'll realize WHY it was so important that he be legally recognized as the father.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Hash_Browns

I can most definatly see your point Secret Method, and I understand why the money is a good thing for her and the childs benefit. I understand that everyone thinks welfare isn't a way to live, but when it's all you have...it's all you have. I'd rather see her living on welfare and that child have a chance at life then no chance at all. I also believe that this should just be a 'keep me going' type of thing, not permenant. As victor already said, she's already in college, she graduated high school, and is keeping good grades.

I also never said he did anything he shouldn't have, but pointed out that there was plenty of time before this to 'nip it in the bud', not that he never spent time with her, but that he didn't spend the right time with her and prevented her from being with all these 'gang' crowds in the first place. Hind sight is 20/20.

I don't even know if these remarks were meant for me, but I can see them relating, and just had to verify that I wasn't insulting or implying anything was right or wrong, just that it could have gone many other ways and still can.

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shakran

Lemme 'splain somethin' to ya.

If a 16 year old has a job, and her own place to live, and does not depend on her parents for ANYTHING at all, and her parents do not give her ANYTHING to help her survive, then she shouldn't have to listen to what they have to say.

As long as she has her hand out asking Daddeee for a check, then he has every right to require her to do what he wants her to do.

That sperm donor/check writer comment of yours screams immaturity. Sure, it'd be great from the kid's perspective if she could do anything she wanted and still get everything she wants from her parents, but that's not how the real world works.

If the kid wants to take and take and take from the parent, then the parent has the right to expect the kid to comply with the parent's wishes.

As for the puritanical american laws idea - look, I think this guy has shown remarkeable restraint. I'd throw the fear of God into any jackass who raped and knocked up my daughter. I wouldn't just be getting child support, I'd have his ass arrested and prosecuted.

Gee, maybe the idea that it's bad for men to have sex with little boys is puritanical- maybe the government should stop prosecuting NAMBLA members. Hell let's give 'em a medal! They're pointing out how repressed our society is.

Most 18 year olds are immature as hell even though they're classified as adults. If you don't believe me, go check out any college dorm and see what they're up to.

If you seriously think the average 16 year old is mature enough to make responsible decisions about having sex, then you have a disjointed sense of reality, and I frankly feel sorry for your children.

slimshaydee

Sex isn't a big deal anymore for 16 year olds. It's not like how it was 40 years ago where sex was reserved for only marriage. Shakran, I'm guessing you are ALOT older than 16, so you wouldn't really know what a 16 year old is like today.

shakran

Hey guys! Check it out! Slimshaydee has singlehandedly written the authoritative creedo on parenting! If you're not the age of your child, you can't possibly understand what she can do or where she is in her maturity, so don't parent her at all! Let her do anything she wants! Only another 16 year old can know what's best for a 16 year old!


Wait, no, that sounds pretty stupid when you think about it, doesn't it

Look I'm not approaching sex from a puritanical perspective. In fact, I'd feel comfortable wagering that no one on this board will do so. Puritanical anti-sex freaks don't tend to frequent a board on which pornography is available, ya know?

I don't really care if people have sex outside of marriage. Fine by me.

Where I start to care is when children are doing things that should be in the realm of adulthood.

Sixteen year olds are by and large not mature enough to make responsible decisions about sex. How do we know this? Look at the example right here in this situation. She had sex, got pregnant, then stuck her hand out for cash. People who are mature enough to handle sex 1) take precautions so they greatly reduce the pregnancy risk and 2) do not go running to their daddy the minute they find out they're gonna have a kid.

TexanAvenger

Look shakran, I don't believe Slimshaydee, or anybody else, is saying to let a 16 year old do whatever they want. God knows what trouble I would've gotten into at 16 if my parents'd let me. Nonetheless, I was having sex at 16 with my girlfriend, though she was the same age, and nothing bad came of it because we were both mature enough to be informed and took precautions to keep from having her get pregnant. I think it's pretty naïve to say that all, or even most, 16 year olds are too immature to have sex, though I agree with you,at least in part, about this particular case. But sex isn't something that is in the realm of adulthood anymore, if it ever was, no matter how much you think it should be. The times, they are a-changin'.

slimshaydee

that's more what i was trying to say

shakran

We're not talking here about children having sex with children (which while it is not a good idea, I'm not unrealistic enough to believe it won't ever happen). We're talking about adults having sex with children.

People are getting on him because he's angry that a grown man had sex with his child. That's absurd. Adults have no business having sex with children. Period, end of sentence.