Why is the Bible a valid scource? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

adysav · 09-11-2004, 04:07 PM

Whenever anyone mentions Hitler being a strong believer in Christianity people try to distance him from it somehow or play it down. It can't be true that one of the biggest genocides in history was brought about because our man H blamed the Jews for the death of Christ, who he believed to be Aryan.

TheKak · 09-11-2004, 04:38 PM

I cannot quote every bad verse of the Bible, to ask such of me is quite rediculous. I am going to assume you own a Bible, and I'm going to assume that you have read it at least once being such a stout defender of it. There are plenty of rediculous things in it, from the vulgar (how about shit eating?) to the violent killing of children. Next time you read through, try being a little more objective and take a real look at it.

It is also very well known that Hitler was Catholic, and it wasn't just to manipulate people. I'll quote some speeches, but it seems to me you have already made up your mind reguardless. I've also read Mein Kampf, which I highly recommend if you want a good look into Hitler's mind and his philosphical thoughts.

Quote:

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 12 April 1922

Quote:

Except the Lord built the house they labour in vain.... The truth of that text was proved if one looks at the house of which the foundations were laid in 1918 and which since then has been in building.... The world will not help, the people must help itself. Its own strength is the source of life. That strength the Almighty has given us to use; that in it and through it we may wage the battle of our life.... The others in the past years have not had the blessing of the Almighty-- of Him Who in the last resort, whatever man may do, holds in His hands the final decision. Lord God, let us never hesitate or play the coward, let us never forget the duty which we have taken upon us.... We are all proud that through God's powerful aid we have become once more true Germans.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in March 1933

Quote:

We have experienced a miracle, something unique, something the like of which there has hardly been in the history of the world. God first allowed our people to be victorious for four and a half years, then He abased us, laid upon us a period of shamelessness, but now after a struggle of fourteen years he has permitted us to bring that period to a close. It is a miracle which has been wrought upon the German people.... It shows us that the Almighty has not deserted our people, that He received it into favour at the moment when it rediscovered itself. And that our people shall never again lose itself, that must be our vow so long as we shall live and so long as the Lord gives us the strength to carry on the fight.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech to the "Old Guard" of the Party at Munich on 19 March, 1934

NOTE: Sorry, I know this is offtopic!

asaris · 09-13-2004, 02:30 PM

I really shouldn't have to respond to the idiotic notion that Hitler was a devout Christian, but I suppose I should.
1. You can mean two things by the word Christian. One is a member of a certain tradition. The other (not generally used by atheists) is as shorthand for "those who are saved". Since no one other than God knows who is saved, the second meaning isn't terribly useful. So, was Hitler a Christian in the first sense? It's pretty clear he wasn't. Sure, there's perhaps some sense in which he was, but his speeches are so full of pagan imagery, his philosophy so influenced by Nietzsche, that it's very hard to maintain that he had any sort of real belief in Christianity. Ultimately, of course, we don't know to what extent he used Christianity and to what extent he really believed it. Quoting speeches doesn't help; if he's using it to political advantage, he'll be doing it in his speeches. I notice that at least one of your speeches is to a much more conservative group within the Nazi party: that's evidence that, at least, his words here shouldn't be taken at face value. I don't suppose you have the audiences for the other two?

2. Christianity is not an anti-semitic religion. Don't laugh, let me finish. It's true that Christianity has long been tainted with anti-semitism (Christ-killers and such nonsense). But our Savior was Jewish himself, most of our early leaders were Jews, and Christ taught that he was the fulfillment, not the abolishment, of the Jewish faith. So the religion itself, as opposed to far too many of its followers, teaches tolerance towards the Jews. To this extent, Hitler was quite obviously not a Christian.

3. Being Catholic in Austria is now, and was to a very similar extent then, very much more a matter of culture than of actual religious belief. Austria is one of the most secular nations in Europe, and that's saying something! So the fact that Hitler was enrolled as a member of the RCC isn't evidence for much either.

I can look through my various resources to see if I can get better evidence; unfortunately, the Nazi-zeit isn't really my area, I'm more of an early 20th century guy.

Willravel · 09-13-2004, 05:06 PM

You took the words right out of my fingers. Thanks for setting that straight.

adysav · 09-13-2004, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asaris

So the religion itself, as opposed to far too many of its followers, teaches tolerance towards the Jews. To this extent, Hitler was quite obviously not a Christian.

Do you fancy pointing out a Christian who has never done anything that is in opposition to the teachings of the Bible?

asaris · 09-14-2004, 12:20 AM

Well, no, since one of the teachings of the Bible is that everyone does something in opposition to the teachings of the Bible. But if someone acts consistently in a manner that is in opposition to the teachings of the Bible, it's not unreasonable to suspect that they are not, in fact, a devout Christian.

adysav · 09-14-2004, 02:01 AM

Well, devout is definitely a strong word and overused, and more than likely not appropriate in this case. He definitely believed that he was doing the right thing in the eyes of God though and he didn't just invent these ideas on the spot to satisfy a personal hatred of Jews.
"Jewish hatred did not spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years."
So there was a deep rooted culture of Jewish hatred and it was incited and kept alive by the church itself. There are a few different 'flavours' of Christianity and you wouldn't accuse them of all being wrong, much less their congregation who simply follow the teachings of the clergy.

asaris · 09-14-2004, 09:10 AM

No, you're right, and it's important in this context to note that it was Europe as a whole, and not Germany in particular, that had been anti-semitic for hundreds of years. I'd maintain it has more to do with society's need for an Other than anything having to do with Christianity, but we probably shouldn't hijack this thread too much. Moreover, I have no doubt that many of those who taught and practiced anti-semitism were also devout Christians. We are none of us perfect. My main point is simply that Hitler did not really believe in God in the same way Christians do.

martinguerre · 09-18-2004, 02:49 PM

"Hitler did not really believe in God in the same way Christians do."

It's a cold, small reassurance in my mind. Hitler practiced some pagan beliefs, etc...and it is clear to me that the virulant hatred of National Socialism did not simply spring up as the natural and inevitable consequence of Christian teachings. But, it is not enough simply be not 100% responsible. Victoria Barnett wrote a very good article called "Beyond Complicty" for a book entitled "Must Christianity Be Violent?" For something sponsered by Wheaton College...it was quite an interesting read. Anyhow. Barnett's point is that Christanity moved people to both resistance and participation in atrocity...so we have to recognize that there are multiple Christianities. It matters which one we believe in, which one we teach. Some lead to peace and honor of the dignity of the human life...others lead to hatred, intolerance and moral degredation.

Scripture is a record of the collective spiritual journey of a people. To take it all in unthinkingly is to try to adopt all of the multiple paths presented. It's not possible or advisable. Some are worth taking...some are not.

09-13-2004, 02:30 PM	#43 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	I really shouldn't have to respond to the idiotic notion that Hitler was a devout Christian, but I suppose I should. 1. You can mean two things by the word Christian. One is a member of a certain tradition. The other (not generally used by atheists) is as shorthand for "those who are saved". Since no one other than God knows who is saved, the second meaning isn't terribly useful. So, was Hitler a Christian in the first sense? It's pretty clear he wasn't. Sure, there's perhaps some sense in which he was, but his speeches are so full of pagan imagery, his philosophy so influenced by Nietzsche, that it's very hard to maintain that he had any sort of real belief in Christianity. Ultimately, of course, we don't know to what extent he used Christianity and to what extent he really believed it. Quoting speeches doesn't help; if he's using it to political advantage, he'll be doing it in his speeches. I notice that at least one of your speeches is to a much more conservative group within the Nazi party: that's evidence that, at least, his words here shouldn't be taken at face value. I don't suppose you have the audiences for the other two? 2. Christianity is not an anti-semitic religion. Don't laugh, let me finish. It's true that Christianity has long been tainted with anti-semitism (Christ-killers and such nonsense). But our Savior was Jewish himself, most of our early leaders were Jews, and Christ taught that he was the fulfillment, not the abolishment, of the Jewish faith. So the religion itself, as opposed to far too many of its followers, teaches tolerance towards the Jews. To this extent, Hitler was quite obviously not a Christian. 3. Being Catholic in Austria is now, and was to a very similar extent then, very much more a matter of culture than of actual religious belief. Austria is one of the most secular nations in Europe, and that's saying something! So the fact that Hitler was enrolled as a member of the RCC isn't evidence for much either. I can look through my various resources to see if I can get better evidence; unfortunately, the Nazi-zeit isn't really my area, I'm more of an early 20th century guy. __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

09-14-2004, 12:20 AM	#46 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	Well, no, since one of the teachings of the Bible is that everyone does something in opposition to the teachings of the Bible. But if someone acts consistently in a manner that is in opposition to the teachings of the Bible, it's not unreasonable to suspect that they are not, in fact, a devout Christian. __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

09-14-2004, 09:10 AM	#48 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	No, you're right, and it's important in this context to note that it was Europe as a whole, and not Germany in particular, that had been anti-semitic for hundreds of years. I'd maintain it has more to do with society's need for an Other than anything having to do with Christianity, but we probably shouldn't hijack this thread too much. Moreover, I have no doubt that many of those who taught and practiced anti-semitism were also devout Christians. We are none of us perfect. My main point is simply that Hitler did not really believe in God in the same way Christians do. __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

09-11-2004, 04:07 PM	#41 (permalink)
adysav Insane	Whenever anyone mentions Hitler being a strong believer in Christianity people try to distance him from it somehow or play it down. It can't be true that one of the biggest genocides in history was brought about because our man H blamed the Jews for the death of Christ, who he believed to be Aryan.

09-13-2004, 05:06 PM	#44 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	You took the words right out of my fingers. Thanks for setting that straight.

09-14-2004, 02:01 AM	#47 (permalink)
adysav Insane	Well, devout is definitely a strong word and overused, and more than likely not appropriate in this case. He definitely believed that he was doing the right thing in the eyes of God though and he didn't just invent these ideas on the spot to satisfy a personal hatred of Jews. "Jewish hatred did not spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years." So there was a deep rooted culture of Jewish hatred and it was incited and kept alive by the church itself. There are a few different 'flavours' of Christianity and you wouldn't accuse them of all being wrong, much less their congregation who simply follow the teachings of the clergy.

09-18-2004, 02:49 PM	#49 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	"Hitler did not really believe in God in the same way Christians do." It's a cold, small reassurance in my mind. Hitler practiced some pagan beliefs, etc...and it is clear to me that the virulant hatred of National Socialism did not simply spring up as the natural and inevitable consequence of Christian teachings. But, it is not enough simply be not 100% responsible. Victoria Barnett wrote a very good article called "Beyond Complicty" for a book entitled "Must Christianity Be Violent?" For something sponsered by Wheaton College...it was quite an interesting read. Anyhow. Barnett's point is that Christanity moved people to both resistance and participation in atrocity...so we have to recognize that there are multiple Christianities. It matters which one we believe in, which one we teach. Some lead to peace and honor of the dignity of the human life...others lead to hatred, intolerance and moral degredation. Scripture is a record of the collective spiritual journey of a people. To take it all in unthinkingly is to try to adopt all of the multiple paths presented. It's not possible or advisable. Some are worth taking...some are not.