Rekna

Are you agnostic or athiest?

CSflim

This is a tricky question, and it is due to misconceptions and language.

My belief is summed up reasonably accurately by the following statement:
There is no compelling arguments or evidence that would lead a rational person to postulate the existence of a God.

Now, what you want to label such a belief is a matter of preference.
Personally, I prefer the term atheist, because it makes apparent the fact that I am confident in my belief and am not merely fence-sitting. I believe that any form of theism is irrational.

That being said I fully accept the logical possibilty of the existence of God. I do not claim to know that God does not exist.
I also accect the possibility of the existence of invisible pink unicorns, and teacups orbitting the sun. But just because they are possible does not mean that a belief in them is justified. There is literally an infinitude of arbitrary things that we could dream up, which have the logical possibility of existence. Do we really need to to remain "agnostic" about them all? Surely a much more appropriate and sensible way to live your life is to say "until you can provide me with some kind of evidence for the existence of X, I refuse to believe in X", and to live your life as if there was no such thing as X.

Otherwise it seems you will be living your life, constantly bearing in mind the possible exitence of an infinite number of contingent things!

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rukkyg

I'm Agnostic.

Athetists believe there is sufficient evidence to prove there is NOT a God or similar entity.

Bill O'Rights

As I understand it:
Agnostic = questioning the existance of god.
Atheist = denying the existance of god.

I am an atheist. I firmly believe that God is a fairy tale...a myth. Much the same as Zeus, Santa Claus and WMD. (OK...that last part was unnecessary...but funny.) I can't prove that God doesn't exist, anymore than I can prove to my son that the monster under his bed doesn't exist. I know that it's not there...but I'll never convince him of that. Not until he's older, and mature enough, to see for himself that the monster...just isn't there.

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Rekna

Atheists believe that god does not exist. To the point that they believe it an absolute truth, he cannot exist and there is no possiblity of it. Agnostic is someone who believes that there is not enough evidence for or against the existence of God, therefore he cannot be proven or disproven.

Now for the second part of my question for those of you who are agnostic. You do not deny that there is a chance that God can exist. If this is the case would you rather believe in God and be wrong or disbelieve in God and be wrong. Let's consider the ramifications of both. If you believe in God and are wrong then when you die you are dead and there is nothing else. You may have "waisted" some of your life believing in God. Now if you disbelieve in God and are wrong after you die you would spend eternity in pain and suffering.

tingly

there comes a time when every agnostic must decide whether the probability of a god existing is high or not. if it is not for that individual, like myself, then a decision on how to live one's life must be made. that decision, like every other in real life scenarios is made off of probability and not absolute proof. therefore, i call myself an atheist because the probability of a god existing seems limited to me. after all, believers believe, they don't have proof. non-believers don't need proof in the same way. they just don't believe.

brianna

I think you're missing a piece of the puzzle -- i for one cannot force myself to believe in anything. If someone who is an agnostic deep down devotes him/herself to a chosen religion he/she is falling slowly into the hypocrite category. If, on the other hand this individual actually believes in the religion they have joined then he/she is no longer an agnostic -- you simple cannot have it both ways.

I have many times wished that i could put my faith in a religion -- it seems easier, sometimes it helps to build a strong support network/community, etc. but i CAN'T i have too many nagging questions to ever fully support any religion.

roachboy

if you are going to operate under the assumption that sooner or later one has to choose, you land in this place--pascal's "wager"--so you might as well read the actual argument:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/

which runs through a series of flaws as well, any one of which could be applied to the above comments on agnostics.

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it make you sick.

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CSflim

Bait-and-switches such as this is the very reason why I call myself an atheist, despite the fact that some people would insist that technically I am an agnostic.

As for Pascal's wager: I posted a parody of it quite a while back and was lamblasted for attacking a straw man. hmmm...
CSflim's Wager

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CoachAlan

I think your premise is off here. If I disbelieve in God and am wrong, we still don't know what kind of God it is. If it's the vengeful and mean God of the Old Testament, then you're probably right. If it's the kinder, gentler God of the New Testament, then he might forgive my lack of faith and instead judge me on my deeds. If it's the God of some other religion, or some God we haven't even heard about yet, then who knows what He might do. He might chastise the alleged believers for believing in the wrong God.

So I'm agnostic. I think the existence of God is unlikely. And I think that if there is a God, it's largely futile for us to try to understand His nature.

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Rekna

This is not a bait and switch, i'm mearly trying to provoke thought.

As many of you I used to be agnostic. I struggled with the idea of god a lot. Then through some occurences in my life i found faith and have found strength in that faith. I'm mearly trying to get you to think about the possiblity of the existance of a God. Not any particular god but that somewhere there is some being out there.

To me it seems strange that so many different cultures that never or rarely interacted all had/have very simalar belifes. The native americans believed and a great "Walken" (holy spirit), tribes throughout the world came up with beliefs of their own. They may all be different but they all have a lot of simalarities.

To me in the end there were to many coincidences within history, the world, and my life to discount his existance.

ARTelevision

I don't see it as necessary to declare a position on a subject I consider unimportant. That said, I do not "believe in a god" and I am also neither agnostic or atheist. I don't think one is bound to define oneself according to categories made up by someone else if one prefers not to do so.

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sixate

athe·ist

one who believes that there is no deity

de·i·ty

a god or goddess


Yup, I'm atheist.

orphen

sixate, we can kinda tell from your signature

and yes, i'm atheist ever since reading Nietzsche :P

ps. when i read the post title, i totally thought i'm going to get something like

"you're all going to hell" post would have been funny

moonstrucksoul

i can pretty much say "without hope, you are nothing"

whether it is hope that your beliefs are true. or it is hope that everyone else is wrong. there is no such thing as wasting time on something that gives you a sense of purpose. even if your purpose is to be athiest.

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braindamage351

Actually you've got that backwards. Old Testament God was biased, but fair. He'd judge you on your deeds. New Testament God is nice, but unless you believe in Jesus being your savior you go to hell.

CoachAlan

Thank you braindamage351. I forgot that the New Testament God is the one who let us know that there is no way to heaven but through Jesus Christ. I stand correted but my point is unaffected by the difference.

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TheKak

Religion A and religion B both have concepts of an all powerful Creator. Now religion A says that God told them to write that believers of any religion but religion A are going to burn for eternity when they die. But religion B says that people who don't believe in religion B's God burn in hell forever. How are you going to pick one illogical belief over another with an argument "why not believe in case you are wrong"? If you choose the wrong one you might as well have chosen none at all! What if God B looks more lightly upon those that choose to believe nothing instead of those relgious A heretics?

Taking your argument this direction, it seems more logical to believe nothing at all.

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Unright

TheKak sums it up pretty well. The old Pascal's wager defense against both agnostics and atheists only really works if there was only one monotheistic religion and the choice was either it or nothing. But with thousands of religions available in the phone book, my resp[onse is to be agnostic.

I've always defined agnostic as the following:
In essense, you can have all your holy books, rituals, holidays, beliefs, symbols, icons, and holy art. But in the end, it's all just theory. No proof for or against.

Rekna

Or you can look at the big picture of all the religions and go from there. There is a reason I consider myself non-denominational, there is a reason I respect Budism, Hinduism, ect.

brianna

respect them all you like but almost all religions (Buddhism is a notable exception) have a set rule that says "believe in our version of god or go to hell, go directly to hell do not pass go do not collect angel wings."

given that there are an infinite number of religions all with the same statistical chance of being right you're still in the same boat as the atheists -- chances are if any one of the religions is right we're all going to hell. see ya there.

Johnny Rotten

This is where I sit, but I can't find a definition of "agnostic" that actually fits that phrasing

I believe that God is a closed system--the most abstract concept imaginable. I've had some odd experiences involving religion, but I don't strictly consider them to be religious experiences. I think there are little-understood resources of the human body and mind that could explain apparent miracles--that religious fervor could be a catalyst, not a conduit. I think the field of biopsychology is poised to explore and explain just as the astronomy and physics have--showing us that, no, the Earth is not flat, nor is it (or the Sun) the center of the Universe.

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Mantus

Depends on your definition of God.

If God is defined as the creator and/or the omnipotent being then I would be an atheist since I find those attributes to be completely nonsensical.

However if you define God as a great being that may have created us, holds a key to the afterlife, judges us or any other attribute we give to our deities then I am an agnostic.

intecel

I'm an atheist. I don't believe what-so-ever in a god. All beings have believed in some sort of god since the start of man having a thought process, and science has always disproved their existence. It's almost like the theory of the world being flat. Everyone believes it until science disproves it.

Unless "god" means "luck" then I dont' believe in a god. I think we're just bacteria that was formed by the lucky combining of elements at the same time.

Now, by me being atheist, I don't think that religion is completely useless. I think that some people need something to believe in to get through the day, or hard times.

Others' beliefs in a God probably have a lot to do with the world not going into total anarchy. People think they'll go to hell if they do anything bad, so they just don't do it...

I HATE people who kill or start wars because of religion. To me, if there actually *was* a god, would he enjoy his creations mass-murdering others because they didn't believe in him or believing in a different form of him? I don't think so...

tecoyah

I don't believe in the God of books, as they are subject to someone elses interpretation, I can accept that which I feel though. You may call it whatever you want.

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Dragonlich

tecoyah, feelings aren't exactly proof, nor are they very reliable...

(Atheist, in case everyone didn't yet know.)

welshbyte

Agnostic i guess. If there is a god and he really wanted us to pay him any attention then he wouldn't be so elusive. If there is a god then i'm keeping him happy by not paying him any attention and if there isn't a god then i'm not wasting my time by wondering if there's a god all the time. I just don't think its worth wasting my short life pondering a question which is never going to be answered (or doesnt want to be answered) before i die. There could be thousands of gods who all have an IQ of 25 for all i know.

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Stompy

Agnostic. I'm undecided.

Um, that's BS. Why would I get sent to hell for being human? You can't create me, introduce loads of science and technology AND simultaneously give me this story about a mythical being in the sky that created everything, who has yet to show proof of his existence. You simply can't do that, it's not fair. And if god is like that, then he's a shitty god.

That logic also pretty much discredits all religion. So what if the "right" religion was the Jewish religion? Or what about Buddhism? If Buddhism is the right religion, then all Christians and Catholics and everyone else is automatically damned for eternity? Not quite...

Vice versa, if Christians think their religion is the right one, then all Buddhists go to hell?! Wow, if that's the case, then the christian god is horrible and most certainly not a god I'd want to spend eternity with!

If god was truly compassionate, he'd understand the fact that we're human and by nature, we might not make the right choice. I couldn't possibly go to hell for that. It's not *my* fault I don't know what to believe in! I can't be punished for that.

Talking about this just makes me doubt religion even more, haha. It's so aburd.. these random "rules".

Actually, I was baptised so.. I don't know what that means, but I'm assuming it means I'm saved regardless. It wasn't my choice, I was 9 months .. so if Buddhism is the right religion, then I'm screwed either way.

Like I said in another thread about porn and sin, religion is a giant mindfuck and you're damned either way. It's a pointless cosmic game and I don't like the fact I'm a part of it.

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hannukah harry

that's pretty much where i'm at.


you seem, to me, to be a little "preachy" for just being non-denominational. if you used to be agnostic, then you probably know how much the rest of us non-god'ers dislike people trying to convert us.

that being said, if you look at the cultures of the ancient western world, they all interacted a lot and share many of the same ideas and myths, just re-written. the idea of a god or spirit fathers being found in cultures all over the world (even the more remote ones) isn't all the odd either. at some point, people started questioning where we came from, how thigns work, and where we went when we died. at one point things like the sun and rivers were gods (ancient egypt), the gods had qualities of nature (zeus with his thunderbolts), or the "spirit fathers" took animal shapes (life giving food) (native americans). even floods show up in different cultures around the world, both sides of the oceans. but that doesn't mean the biblical flood was real. most ancient cultures started off in river valleys/basins which would flood every year, sometimes causing terrible damage. so it's not surprising that those would end up in the myths and collective memories of those cultures, which would evolve as time went on and the people and cultures adapted and grew.

so most things seem much more coincedental and circumstantial than anything. nothing really points to "god" for me.

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xepherys

CoachAlan... great way to put it. Frankly, I personally believe in a greater force. I don't even know that such an entity could be classed as a "being". I simply don't believe that humans have the ability to understand anything so great (as with the universe, which is perverse since I'm going into Astrophysics, but still...). Agnostics probably have it the most correct of anyone. I'm personally not agnostic, nor atheist, though my religious beliefs are not particularly popular practice, I believe in my own spirituality. However, my belief will only get me to the end of my life. Beyone that, anyone's faith or lack thereof is more than likely useless.

combatmedicjen

I'm with xeph... I acknowledge the existence of a greater being (god, goddess, purple cow with wings and platform goldfish boots??) that is above us, which we will never understand. So I guess I am neither agnostic nor athiest, since I believe in a diety... but yet not Christian or any of the other major religious sects...

Come to think of it, what the heck category do I fit into?

tecoyah

My mistake....didn't realize I was asked what I could prove....only what I believed.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

welshbyte

Forget categories, just be yourself and let those who obsess over categorising do the pointless thinking

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KellyC

Atheist, what's on my mind has pretty much been said by others.

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Rekna

I did not try to be "preachy" at all, i am simply asking some questions. If that is being preachy then what are people doing who proclaim in every thread that mentions God at all that they don't believe in God, or that it is one giant fairytail, ect? To me that seems preachy but in the going against God instead.

I've noticed there are a number of people on this board that have to add "they don't believe in god" to every thread, even threads addressed specifically to believers. To me these people are just as bad as the people who feel they need to add they believe in God in every conversation.

I have a theory about people that do this from both sides and it is that they are actually uncertain about what they believe so they have to constantly tell themselfs and everyone around them their beliefs in hope of convincing themself of what they want to believe.

If you want examples of what i'm talking about read StormBerlin's thread on pure motives and see how many people proclaimed they don't beleive in God when the belief of God wasn't even part of the question she was asking. It was a question addressed to believers.

How many people posted in this thread "I believe in god therefore this question is mute."?

hannukah harry

rekna,
you opened the thread with a simple question, are you agnostic or atheist? and that's all well and good. but then you bust out pascal's wager on us. my impression is that you sandbagged the thread. i've had more than enough converstaions in college start out innocently like that only to have the person bust out and try to convert me. if you're asking us what we are and why, just because you're curious, fine. but that's not how it came off to me. that just happens to be the way i read it.

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Stompy

Pascal's wager is great and all, but you can't just randomly decide to believe in something.

You have to deep deep down actually believe in it, or at least, that's what I would think. You can't exactly keep a poker face and say "yeah, I believe in god" when in your MIND you aren't certain.

I understand the whole "ok, I guess I'll believe to avoid eternal damnation", but you can't just up and believe something.

Do you still get "punished" for that? If so, why? That doesn't make any sense.

I really would love to see the verse in the bible (or any other religious book) that states one will go to hell for being undecided.

Couldn't one just be AWARE that the diety exists? It's too much of a game, otherwise. Millions of people follow different religions, and only one of them can be right?

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brianna

Stompy, my point exactly (See above) do churches really want people in their pews faking it?

Rekna

I know you can't just believe in something. I'm wanted to know how many of you had considered the difference between agnostic and athiest because so many people don't know the diffrence and there is a huge one. I was just wanted to get you to think about the differences between them.

RoboBlaster

When wondering about the existence of God, it is important to note that there is no conclusive evidence to it's existence. That said, we have to look at what evidence there is and make judgements that way. We'll never be totally sure, but we may be able to form decisions. Pretty much, the evidence in support for God's existence is in personal experience. Since time immemorial, humans have individually formed a spiritual bond with some sort of force. This has happened independently across time and cultures. Some call it nirvana, some call it the Holy Spirit, but the accounts are similar. Something is going on here. At its heart, religion is supposed to be about fostering this spiritual link. However, like any tool used by humans, we can use it improperly and for ill. Religion is not inherently bad or good; it is all in the hands of the user.

So, who/what is God? That much may never be known. Is it the personal entity that created everything as in the judeo-christian belief, or is it the impersonal force binding all as in the Buddhist belief? Is it a biological firing of neurons that makes me feel good when I attempt to commune with a higher force? I don't know and it really doesn't matter, for it works. Those who have truly acted in the interest of spirituality have done great things, regardless of religion.

I don't need to worry about afterlife or inconsistencies in a creation story, because I feel that it really is irrelevant when thinking about God. It is about that connection in the here and now that is important, not any silly debate that will never by resolved.