Seer666

Just got to ask one thing on this one. Why would living for today be absurd and hedonistic? I'm not to good at quoting the bible and all of that, but didn't Jesus himself say something to the effects of live life for today don't worry about tomorrow? I might be wrong there. I mean, think about it for a minute, who is more absurd, the person that lives their life as a good person in hopes of some reward in an afterlife that may or may not come, or the person that believes in nothing beyound death, but lives a good and full life simple because it is the "right" thing to do?

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Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

Macheath

If you find meaning in your life on the basis of a life after this one, this begs the question...

What is the meaning and purpose of your afterlife?

Lebell

I believe this is what you are thinking of:

Jesus isn't saying to live hedonistically.

Rather, He is saying that we should live in the moment and not worry about tommorrow.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Stompy

I don't find any meaning in life other than to live.

Everything you do is pointless in the grand scheme of things. Let's say you are THE best thing to happen to humanity, you give all the cures for cancer, solve the theories in quantum physics, etc etc... once the universe implodes on itself, it won't matter. Nothing will exist anymore. Nothing.

The more I progress through life, the more I take an agnostic point of view. It's very naive to think that a god just "poof" created everything out of the blue like explained in the Bible. The whole "heaven vs. hell" thing is very ape-like thinking, to me.

You're telling me that with all this science and discovery in quantum physics that's going on.. and alllll the interesting developments in biology, you expect me to think that all this was just created at the drop of a hat? At the same time, it's unreasonable to expect me as a human to be presented with all this stuff and take a stance on "I don't know if God exists." and later find out "well, you didn't believe in god during your life, so you're going to hell." That's kinda bs.

On the other hand... something is up. Everything about the universe, energy, everything... something is causing it. Dunno if it's a "God" or just the natural way of the way things are..

Not enough prove to believe, not enough proof to disbelieve, but definitely think a lot of the "rules" in religions were created way back when to police the people. It's definitely easier to spook people into behaving by convincing them that there's this almighty being that will grant you enternal paradise for being good and one that will eternally damn you if you're bad.

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tecoyah

Perhaps to evaluate your existance, and plan for the next incarnation......who can know, but it is interesting to ponder.

As for the whole "God vs. QM" thing, why not just accept that they could both be correct. There can be no difinative truth in this regard. Each will be right in the pursuit of truth.

Both "God" and "science" fascinate me, as I will never completely understand either one.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

skier

I feel some people are getting meaning and purpose confused. While purpose can give something meaning, it is not the only way of deriving meaning for something. So what i'm saying is life doesn't need to have a purpose to have meaning

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"Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

Stompy

Re: God vs. QM

I definitely keep an open mind and don't disregard the possibility of a higher being/consciousness/energy. Like I said, not enough proof to believe, not enough proof to disbelieve.

I do believe there's a connection somewhere, somehow. It's probably in a form we're not expecting nor could we ever comprehend.

This stuff drives me insane. I'm totally fascinated with QM, but I spent so many months, night after night just lying in bed contemplating how everything fits together, trying to make sense of it all that I got to the point where I needed a break. Now I'm getting back into it, back into the many nights of sleepless thinking

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Seer666

Yes, but the point that I got out of the last one, and I could just be reading things wrong, wouldn't be the first time I've done it, is that by not believeing in an after life or anything means that we are just living for today and being "absurd and hedonistic". I'm just trying to point out that you can live for today, not believe in a damn thing after death, and still not see or live life as absurd OR hedonistic. Life simply is. Do what you can to make the most of it, and be the best person you can be, and worry about the afterlife when you are dead. Know what I mean Vern?

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Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

Seer666

A little of subject here, but I just think it is funny the quantum physics seems to have proved there is a God, and that magic is real. 3rd law of QP, I think is is. "The intent of the observer affects the object observed". That is mind over matter, and that is the basics of "magic". Also with the Unification Theory they are working on to bring QP and reguler physics together, they point out that in order for anything to happen in the univers, it has to be observed. We don't really have to "see" it, just be aware of it, as they put it. When the woman, I can't remember her name, was asked who is observing the univers, she answerd "Us", and gave that as the explination. Now, who observed it to set off the Big Bang?

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Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

Lebell

I would mostly agree with what you said.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Yakk

It sorta was actually. =p

Belief that there is a concept called "God", which exists in people's minds, is not really something an atheist would deny. And that's the only belief mentioned.

They give a meaning for one's life on earth possibly. Heaven-based religions, however, give no real basis for existance, other than hedonism. They just offer infinite reward for playing the game while you live as a carrot. Hedonism, thinly vieled. Reincarnation religions offer hedonism by reincarnating 'better' often.

If one's life is but a part of the story, then raise your arguement to 'what meaning does existance have', and the tricks religions use tend to fall apart.


Refuting. You said 'the things you do [in life] have meaning', then wondered 'how do [the things you do in life] give your life meaning'?

It seems you have distingished between your life and the things that you do in your life. If you remove that distinction, there is an answer for you.

Your existance will still have been. Nothing was destroyed by your death, in a wierd way: all events, consequences and actions done are not undone.

I hope you talked to other people in those 17 years. What you learned and passed on will not go away, it will persist. The line will continue.

You can't contribute to social projects that occur after you die, nope, I agree. Well, not directly: you could set up foundations, inspire others, etc etc. But that is only the central part of existance, so don't worry about it. =)

You are diminished by the fact the universe is large?

Imagine if the universe consisted of you and a flower, on a rock floating in space. Just because there was nothing except you and the flower, would that make your actions mean any more? I would argue no: with less other there is fewer chances to matter, fewer consequences to your actions.

The universe is a big place. A cute fact, but really, so what? Why does that make your existance matter less? It gives you that much more to look at, that much more to touch, that much more to experience.

Just as your life shouldn't be defined by the fact it is about to end, your importance shouldn't be defined by the ratio of your mass to that of the universe.

Heh, sorry about that. I caught my misuse and forgot to remove it. =)

I disagree. As your belief system doesn't seem to have any use to me (it doesn't imply anything useful, nor does it seem to be backed with any evidence), and it seems that it makes you feel insignificant and useless, I will keep my beliefs, and you can go play with yours if you insist.

I don't need a reason to exist, not in some holy roller philosophical way. I mean, I exist because my parents had a baby, if you want a 'reason'. But that isn't what you are looking for.

Assertion without basis, as far as I can tell. I mean, I wouldn't join him, mainly because I don't like people named bob, but you are claiming his actions are absurd for no reason that I can see.

Make one up. I mean, I can write down reems of meanings you can select from.

The universe is the single most interesting thing you have ever seen. If you can't find meaning in a place this wonderous and interesting, quite possibly you should just give up and quit. Be polite and quiet about it, and try not to distirb those of us who are still enjoying ourselves.

The fact we live in a large reality doesn't mean we are any less for it. 6 billion humans diminishes you not at all.

However, I did say I could give you some meanings. How about:
It is quite possible (I'd even say probable)[1] that humankind is one of the first intelligent lifeforms in the universe, if not the only. Your ideas and their decendants may one day outlive every proton in the universe: they may live on without bounds.

--
[1] Why do I say it is possible or probable we are an early intelligent lifeform?

Let say humanity is still going 100,000 years from now. I'd fully expect we'd have left the solar system and have colonized adjacent solar systems. Lets assume 10 stars are colonized.

Given a 0.1% population growth rate over the long term, every 1000 years or so humanity will have colonlized twice as many stars.

There are about 100 billion stars in the Galaxy.

So, 33,000 years later every star in the Galaxy will have been colonized. (10 * 2^33 is about 100 billion)

In case you haven't been keeping track, we are still talking about a blink of an eye in the lifetime of the universe. And, for those who don't know their astrogeography, we actually couldn't pull this off because the Milky Way is 300,000 to 100,000 light years in diameter.

Basically, our rate of colonization becomes only limited by relativity.

And, with a few thousands of years of more technology, we should be able to pack civilization seeds into relatively small machines, and make them move at speeds relatively close to that of light.

Intelligence, once it is past gestation, should be able to spread at relativistic speeds over the entire universe. So, if intelligence that passes the gestation phase isn't rare as yet, we'd have been colonized by them before we ever got here...

How is that for a grand purpose to place meaning in? I can give you foma that might be more to your liking if that one isn't pleasant enough for you.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

skier

thanks man, you've given me some stuff to think about while i'm doin my studying. I'll cogitate for the next few days and give you my reply then.

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"Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

Stompy

Do the after effects count? Let's say nothing was around to observe the big bang, but later formed to observe and experience the after effects.

What about each of us as a person? None of us today were alive during the Revolutionary war, so how can we be certain it happened? What about events that happened before you were born? You didn't observe them. Did they happen?

Seer666

By the theory they are working out, the big bang couldn't have happened unless someone was there to observe it in some fashion. It is not hte finnaly theory, but it is what they got so far, or at least last time I heard anything on it. So unless there is something or someone out there that can see time in reverse.....

There were people around fot he Revolutionary war, so it was observed, but in a way, we are observing the RW, even now. I observe people that are older then me, and they observe people older then them, ect, all the way back. There is a chain of observation that can be followed. Where it get's tricky is where the chain starts, and who started it. Does it start, or does it loop back on itself somehow? But that, is even farther off topic, so I won't get into it.

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Bad spellers of the world untie!!!

I am the one you warned me of

I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

Yakk

Re: QM requires an observer.

Some Interpritation of QM imply that reality requires "observation" (usually without defining "observation" well). Others do not.

Read Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics

What you are talking about is the "Consciousness Causes Collapse", or the "Copenhagen interpretation" with "Consciousness" being the only measuring device.

There are other interpritation that don't require a consciousness present, or observing the consequences of, the big bang. My personal favourate is the Many-worlds interpretation.

Note: my knowledge of QM comes from a math background, various pop-sci sources, a housemate who does research in quantum computation, a PhD student friend of mine, and the wikipedia. I am not an authority on the subject.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Stompy

Holy shit.. a lot of that "many worlds interpretation" is shit I've thought of on my own without ever having seen that before..

Like instances where I have a headache, I've always thought (since I was younger) "what if I had an anuerysm then and died.. and this dimension is one in which my life continues on?"

Very crazy.

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DownwardSpiral

I find that my meaning in life is to become fulfilled. To be able to look back at my life when I'm older and to be able to think that I've done just about everything I wanted to do and that I can be happy with what I have done in my life. I don't believe, however, that I need 'God' to fulfill myself, I don't need 'God' to help me find a meaning in my life, because I can do that on my own. Does that answer your question any?

__________________
"So Keep on Pretending.
Our Heavens Worth the Waiting.
Keep on Pretending.
It's Alright."

-- H.I.M., "Pretending"

copenhagen

If god exists why doesn’t he give more proof to show us that the way we picked was the right way? On the other hand, if we have to be shown the way, do we understand enough to be accepted into the next life?

Jay Francis

In my late twenties, I thought too much about the how did we get here, how can any of this exist question. And it didn't get me anywhere, so these days I force myself not to contemplate too much about the unanswerable questions. It doesn't go anywhere.

I find more satisfaction is analyzing what I don't believe in. So, I do research into the history of Christianity and Islam, and get comfort from my conclusions relating to those religions.

I know that it is a hard thing to do, but, in the long run, I would recommend that not thinking too much about the hard questions leads to more peace of mind.

Publius

We are still discussing the meaning of life? I thought that Douglas Adams solved that riddle (its 42). Seriously though as an agnostic I believe that people should live their lives in the same way they would if their were a God or if there weren’t a God. If you spend your whole life just waiting around for God to show up then you have wasted it. Likewise, if you spend your whole life just doing whatever feels good at the moment then that’s wasting it too. Personally I try to live my life to make the world around me a little better place so that when I am gone my brief existence added to society and the betterment of mankind. And if there be a God I hope that he will look kindly upon my actions, and if there isn’t a God then at least I won’t have wasted my life waiting around to be raptured.

Menoman

What makes you think that we (athiests/agnostics) need a meaning to our lives?

You live

You die.

~~{Game Over}~~

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macmanmike6100

as an atheist, I don't think that life is absurd at all. *I* create meaning for myself. I happen to find meaning in enlightened self-interest, and when I die my legacy will be the people I've helped, that's all. Sounds ideal but hell, it'll be true (I hope).

Jay Francis

I think the purpose of life, well, not really the purpose, but a way to maximize the time you have, is to do only things that cause your brain to release the brew of chemicals that make you feel good. If one dedicated one's life to inducing a state of happiness and well being, I'm sure that our DNA would be very pleased.

tecoyah

Meaning in your life without.....Dragons.....Santa Clause......etc

If you don't accept the "GOD" hypothesis, then there is no need to explain why you don't need it for meaning. Many find meaning in existance, experience, love,pain, or any number of "things". God is there for some and not for others, It has little bearing on fulfillment, and meaning in the life of a non believer.
God to me, is like a lace viel in front of a tombstone. I am aware there is an inscription, and I know what the stone means. But this damn frilly thing is keeping me from understanding what is written, and thus,who (the universe) could be under the ground.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

door

The whole crux of modern existentialia is that "Meaning" isn't intrinsic in the universe.

I am a theist (belive in a God). I believe the god has a plan. But I believe in radical freedom (non-determinism).

My essence DOES NOT precede my existence. So I choose my essence- I also choose, then, my meaning.

Meaning doesn't mean purpose or goal or any such thing.

The MEANING of life is WHY life. So purpose is a PART of it, sure. But not all of it.

The only true escape from pain and anguish is suicide, then. Otherwise one must embrace it and reject it at once ( Think Camus) or they can live in "bad faith" (Sartre's rejection of a "subconscious" leads to a state where a conscious might lie to itself- in Camus terms, it is being metaphysically dead).

la petite moi

Personally, I don't look for a meaning- Life doesn't have one. Except maybe to just live and try for the best future possible. These days it's all just a power struggle. I don't give up just yet because I am afraid of the potential that I have. I may have a great future and giving up could be giving up on that future.

0nesh0tw0nder

Day by day is the way to live. Whether there is a God or not, tomorrow you or I will or won't wake up. One thing is certain; all my questions will be answered at the end. At least that's how I make sense of it. We will all have definite answers in time.

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"Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt." Abraham Lincoln

sekm

i believe the purpose of life is to love god, have a relationship with him.

the rules are just there for our own good, but i dont think there are negative consequences other than pushing our individual realities away from the absolute reality of god, making it harder to keep the relationship.

if you love god, it follows that you should show love to those he loves, the rest of humanity.

an existance based around any emotion other than love is a waste in my mind.

braindamage351

For those who believe in God.

What is the meaning of your life once you've made it into heaven?

vdublover

It's easy to find meaning. Just pretend you are a lower form of life. Take away all your thought and reason, and just reproduce. There you are. The meaning of life. To pass on your genetic code. Lucky for us we have developed the minds to enjoy ourselves in this process we call life. Do you have children of your own? Perhaps if you did, you could see the 'meaning' in them. Your own little creations. I think that if you have to believe in something that was created during the dawn of mankind as a way to control the masses to make you happy, then your life here must suck. Sorry, I just don't worry about it. I love to spend time with my family and go hiking and enjoy the trees and animals and nature, etc. You ever just sit at the beach for hours watching the waves? I recommend it. Just don't wonder about who created it. Instead wonder about who has enjoyed it before you, before man even. Oops, I apologize, I seem to be rambling again.

To look for heaven, is to live here in hell.

gorpa

Skier I think you hit the nail on the head in one of your earlier posts. You mentioned finding meaning for yourself. You don't need a god to do that.

I may just be assuming too much, but god has probably never personally talked to you. There is a reason for that I believe.
If you define god as the creator of all and giver of meaning (as it seems a lot of us do) You eliminate Him from our observable frame of reference. (e.g. if god created time he must exist independent of time, which means he exists outside our universe. If our universe is defined "as all that is" or at least all that we can observe, then god is unobservable to us.)

The whole point being that everyone lives without God because even if he exists no one can prove or disprove it.

Essentially we are alone in the universe, by which I mean no other being can know our minds so well as ourselves. And, if there is no god to give us meaning who better to do it than ourselves? If you need to believe that there is some great plan for everything it is certainly within your capability to find one. Who is to say that it is wrong? No one truly knows what there is no evidence for so it can't logically be contested.

It sounds like you're struggling a little. I hope that helped...

hannukah harry

<IMG SRC="http://images.ucomics.com/comics/ch/1993/ch930601.gif">

<IMG SRC="http://images.ucomics.com/comics/ch/1993/ch930602.gif">

considering the topic (haven't read the posts yet), i thought this was appropriate and amusing.

edited to learn html!

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shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

ibis

I disagree. To me it seems like like it talkes a much more "strong minded" person to thing about such things and figure it out for him/herself.

As for my answer, I agree with Lebell. Even if I'm wrong about God, I've lived a good life, which to me is important.

thejoker130

I would submit that purpose and meaning are actually the same concepts.

That being said it is up to each person to find there own purpose and meaning in life .Such things should be defined by the person not by the church or by the bible or by any manmade theological source. Being an agnostic I beleive in god I just dont do it in the same way that other people do. Why would he or she have given us the ability to make our own choices if he/she would then condemn us for the choices we made that detered a bit from what he/she had intended. Besides how can you be sure that your faith is the correct interpretation? For hundreds of years the bible has been written and re-written from one language to another and edited extensively by kings and religious figures who may have found it politically convenient to judiciously edit gods pages of scripture. I'm not saying all peoples of the christian faith are wrong. I'm simply saying that you should find you own path, meaning, purpose and faith. Life is short you should live it well rather that worrying about what happens after. I've never met the creator but i'm told that he is quite reasonable and compassionate.

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WHAT MORE CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR IF NOT FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?
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I like you. When the world is mine your death will be quick and painless.

WarriorBuddha

I'm with many others of the mind that living a life that I enjoy and that my friends and family enjoy is all the meaning I need. I also believe that one can make a huge difference in the universe in their lifetime. By being kind to others and being a friend and such, you make an incredible difference in the universe of that person. If the universe that which is observed, then each person has their own, and any individual can make a difference. So you don't need god so much as the people around you to find meaning in life.

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Thockmorton knew if he were ever to break wind in the echo chamber, he would never hear the end of it.

shakran

OK, let's say there is a god (for the sake of argument only - I don't know if there is or is not, and neither do any of you - it's called faith, not fact )

We have to figure out whether this god is a part of the universe that he created or if this god created the universe but is outside of it. In other words, when the universe collapses, will god cease to exist as well, or will he be sitting on the outside watching it happen? The same question applies to heaven - I've never heard any religion address whether or not heaven is a part of the universe or not. If it's a part of the universe, then even the residents of heaven (angels/spirits/souls/whatever) will cease to exist when the universe ceases to exist and therefore even the religious are just marking time until their own demise - only difference is that they think they won't cease to exist until several billion years from now, whereas those who do not believe in god/the afterlife think they've got 100 years or so if they're lucky.

What it all boils down to is that none of us knows why we're here or what our purpose is or what will happen after we die. I personally don't believe that the biblical version of god exists, and i don't believe there's a heaven waiting for me when I die.

So why don't I just nip off and shoot myself right now - after all what's the point, I'm gonna die anyway so why bother going through the hardship of living? I'd say it's because 1) others don't feel that way and my life may have a positive influence on theirs. 2) why bother shooting myself? I've got all of eternity not to exist, why not make the most of existing while I've got the chance?

braindamage351

Everything is meaningless. Life and afterlife.

As an atheist, I live for no reason and die forever.

As a theist, I live to get into heaven, and then I stay in heaven, never to leave again. How is there any meaning in that either?