existentialism/god question--who said this? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

rsl12 · 03-16-2004, 09:36 AM

Here's the premise, if you know the philosopher, please tell me.

Let's say one night as you are sleeping and suddenly you are woken up by a bright light. You see at the foot of your bed an angel who holds a burning sword. He tells you that God has sent him to tell you to live in a cave for the next five years of your life. What do you do?

The point: most people would not pack up their things and go live in a cave--they would think that they ate too much pizza the night before and had a dream, or, if it's a recurring dream, that they need to get medication or see a psychologist. The question is, at what point can you be convinced that the angel is really a messenger of God? What would the angel have to do to convince you that he is real? From these questions the philosopher goes on to describe the sticky relationship between god and people.

CSflim · 03-16-2004, 11:16 AM

I'm not sure about you, but I can tell the difference between a dream and reality.

At the time of dreaming I may not necessarily "know" that I am dreaming, but the experience of dreaming is so completely different from waking, I don't think that I could say that when I am dreaming I "think" that I am awake either

Regardless; with hindsight, I can tell the difference between what I dreamed, and what I experienced.

rsl12 · 03-16-2004, 11:22 AM

csfilm: you're missing the point: if the angel appeared to you, would you do it? how would you know that it wasn't a hallucination? How would you know it wasn't a prank? How would you know it wasn't the devil playing tricks on you? How would you know that you weren't going crazy?

And after answering all of that, what would it take for you to be 100% certain that god was communicating to you?

EDIT: never mind the 100%--how much would it take for you to be certain enough to go live in a cave for 5 years?

Ustwo · 03-16-2004, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rsl12
csfilm: you're missing the point: if the angel appeared to you, would you do it? how would you know that it wasn't a hallucination? How would you know it wasn't a prank? How would you know it wasn't the devil playing tricks on you? How would you know that you weren't going crazy?

And after answering all of that, what would it take for you to be 100% certain that god was communicating directly to you?

How do you know you are hallucinating TFP exsists? You don't, therefore it doesn't matter if its real to you.

Now if said event happend my first question is 'why?' and if I don't get an answer I don't go live in a cave. If the lord wants me to suffer he can always do a 'Job' on me.

rsl12 · 03-16-2004, 12:41 PM

utswo--It sounds like you would respond to a logical explanation, if the angel could prove that going to a cave would keep thousands from suffering. But would you respond to a proof of authenticity, if the angel could prove he really was a messenger of God, without giving any reason for following orders other than that they come from God? And if so, what would you consider to be enough proof of authenticity?

Lebell · 03-16-2004, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rsl12
And if so, what would you consider to be enough proof of authenticity?

Aside from the fiery entrance and impressive wing span? I would accept a tequila!

(points to the first person who can identify the source

)

Shokan · 03-16-2004, 02:18 PM

Dogma.

Woo!

Yakk · 03-16-2004, 04:18 PM

For proof?
I'd ask the angel for a piece of information I could verify, but I could never have come up on my own, even if I was delusional.

Writing up the solution and question to a large NP-hard problem would do. (NP-hard problems are a set of problems whose answer is easy to check while finding the answer is not really possible.)

I would have the angel write it down, and I'd go to other people whose sanity I respect and have them check the answer.

If the answer is correct, there are a few possiblities:
1> This is an angel
2> This is an alien or other higher power
3> I am both insane and a genius, having solved a question that we believe cannot be solved in the lifetime of the universe, and attributing it to an angel.
4> I am hallicinating both the angel and the trusted proof-checker's actions.

1 & 2 are pretty hard to distinguish by a mere mortal. So, say "

3 & 4 means I've lost all contact with reality, I mean all contact, so why not live in a cave?

Of course, more than likely I'll just get smacked down for being a smartass by the angel.

"In the name of god, the answer to the travelling salesman problem is..."

=p

rsl12 · 03-16-2004, 06:55 PM

yakk: basically the philosopher is question (I think it was sartre but I could be wrong) used this as a basis to say that God could never give a strong enough proof that such and such was what God wanted him to do. For all purported messages from God to him (or to the general populace), and for any conceivable hypothetical message, there always seems to be a more plausible argument about how that message came to be. Therefore, it's better to create a direction of life, a way of living, independently of any expectation of what God wants you to do. So goes the argument. Is it sartre? which work is it from?

MSD · 03-16-2004, 09:51 PM

I don't know about you guys, but I'm at least going to pretend to obey the guy with the flaming sword until he goes away. Being stabbed is bad enough, but stabbed and on fire is worse. I really don't think that anythign would convince me beyond doubt that I was talking to God's messenger. If he hadn't given concrete proof of his existance for thousands of years, why would he send a guy with a sword to tell me to live in a cave?

wilbjammin · 03-16-2004, 11:46 PM

I would have to know why... there is no teleological suspension of reason for me.

Lebell · 03-17-2004, 01:59 AM

To answer this question seriously, I recall it saying somewhere that an angel would proclaim and praise Jesus as Son of God (yes, this is all heavily Christian), whereas a demon (the other possibility) could/would not.

rsl12 · 03-17-2004, 06:51 AM

personally, if I could be sure that the angel was a messenger of a benevolent God, I would gladly do as he said. The hard part is being sure...

Mantus · 03-17-2004, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
To answer this question seriously, I recall it saying somewhere that an angel would proclaim and praise Jesus as Son of God (yes, this is all heavily Christian), whereas a demon (the other possibility) could/would not.

And if you are unsure of that try a circle of white chalk, or better yet, blood around the bed. Unless it's an alien, in which case i recomend an ainal chastity belt.

Nice post rsl12, I am curious about the philosopher as well.

Lebell · 03-17-2004, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mantus
And if you are unsure of that try a circle of white chalk, or better yet, blood around the bed. Unless it's an alien, in which case i recomend an ainal chastity belt.

I'll take that in the spirit in which it was intended, just as soon as I can figure out what that spirit is.

Mantus · 03-17-2004, 01:59 PM

A mischievous one. Just reaffirming rsl12’s statement that you simply can never be sure.

I suppose I should have just said: what if God isn’t Christian, or the Devil doesn’t follow the rules we made up for him?

Yakk · 03-17-2004, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rsl12
yakk: basically the philosopher is question (I think it was sartre but I could be wrong) used this as a basis to say that God could never give a strong enough proof that such and such was what God wanted him to do. For all purported messages from God to him (or to the general populace), and for any conceivable hypothetical message, there always seems to be a more plausible argument about how that message came to be. Therefore, it's better to create a direction of life, a way of living, independently of any expectation of what God wants you to do. So goes the argument. Is it sartre? which work is it from?

I can reduce it to an alien, a demon, a massive conspiracy, or an angel. Because I know questions that only one of the above could answer, yet I could verify the actual answer myself.

And really, if it is something as easy as living in a cave for a few years, any of the above organizations could force me to do it. The fact they are just asking me means they might be less polite if I said no. The ones which are benevolent would be most polite when I said no. Thus, why say no?

Now, if the angel requested I go and kill every first born child in the greater edumnton area, I'd tell it to go sit on its flaming sword.

rsl12 · 03-19-2004, 01:48 PM

It could be a supercomputer? or a calculus database? Or it could be your friend joe with an earpiece so he can communicate with his other friend who has internet access?

actually, that last one is ez to disprove though. just strip him naked, dunk him in a bathtub, and then ask him questions.

03-16-2004, 09:36 AM	#1 (permalink)
rsl12 On the lam Location: northern va	existentialism/god question--who said this? Here's the premise, if you know the philosopher, please tell me. Let's say one night as you are sleeping and suddenly you are woken up by a bright light. You see at the foot of your bed an angel who holds a burning sword. He tells you that God has sent him to tell you to live in a cave for the next five years of your life. What do you do? The point: most people would not pack up their things and go live in a cave--they would think that they ate too much pizza the night before and had a dream, or, if it's a recurring dream, that they need to get medication or see a psychologist. The question is, at what point can you be convinced that the angel is really a messenger of God? What would the angel have to do to convince you that he is real? From these questions the philosopher goes on to describe the sticky relationship between god and people. __________________ oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

03-16-2004, 11:16 AM	#2 (permalink)
CSflim Sky Piercer Location: Ireland	I'm not sure about you, but I can tell the difference between a dream and reality. At the time of dreaming I may not necessarily "know" that I am dreaming, but the experience of dreaming is so completely different from waking, I don't think that I could say that when I am dreaming I "think" that I am awake either Regardless; with hindsight, I can tell the difference between what I dreamed, and what I experienced. __________________

03-16-2004, 11:22 AM	#3 (permalink)
rsl12 On the lam Location: northern va	csfilm: you're missing the point: if the angel appeared to you, would you do it? how would you know that it wasn't a hallucination? How would you know it wasn't a prank? How would you know it wasn't the devil playing tricks on you? How would you know that you weren't going crazy? And after answering all of that, what would it take for you to be 100% certain that god was communicating to you? EDIT: never mind the 100%--how much would it take for you to be certain enough to go live in a cave for 5 years? __________________ oh baby oh baby, i like gravy. Last edited by rsl12; 03-16-2004 at 12:56 PM..

03-16-2004, 12:41 PM	#5 (permalink)
rsl12 On the lam Location: northern va	utswo--It sounds like you would respond to a logical explanation, if the angel could prove that going to a cave would keep thousands from suffering. But would you respond to a proof of authenticity, if the angel could prove he really was a messenger of God, without giving any reason for following orders other than that they come from God? And if so, what would you consider to be enough proof of authenticity? __________________ oh baby oh baby, i like gravy. Last edited by rsl12; 03-16-2004 at 12:55 PM..

03-16-2004, 02:18 PM	#7 (permalink)
Shokan Addict Location: Canada	Dogma. Woo! __________________ Legalize it.

03-16-2004, 04:18 PM	#8 (permalink)
Yakk Wehret Den Anfängen! Location: Ontario, Canada	For proof? I'd ask the angel for a piece of information I could verify, but I could never have come up on my own, even if I was delusional. Writing up the solution and question to a large NP-hard problem would do. (NP-hard problems are a set of problems whose answer is easy to check while finding the answer is not really possible.) I would have the angel write it down, and I'd go to other people whose sanity I respect and have them check the answer. If the answer is correct, there are a few possiblities: 1> This is an angel 2> This is an alien or other higher power 3> I am both insane and a genius, having solved a question that we believe cannot be solved in the lifetime of the universe, and attributing it to an angel. 4> I am hallicinating both the angel and the trusted proof-checker's actions. 1 & 2 are pretty hard to distinguish by a mere mortal. So, say " 3 & 4 means I've lost all contact with reality, I mean all contact, so why not live in a cave? Of course, more than likely I'll just get smacked down for being a smartass by the angel. "In the name of god, the answer to the travelling salesman problem is..." =p __________________ Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

03-16-2004, 06:55 PM	#9 (permalink)
rsl12 On the lam Location: northern va	yakk: basically the philosopher is question (I think it was sartre but I could be wrong) used this as a basis to say that God could never give a strong enough proof that such and such was what God wanted him to do. For all purported messages from God to him (or to the general populace), and for any conceivable hypothetical message, there always seems to be a more plausible argument about how that message came to be. Therefore, it's better to create a direction of life, a way of living, independently of any expectation of what God wants you to do. So goes the argument. Is it sartre? which work is it from? __________________ oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

03-16-2004, 09:51 PM	#10 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	I don't know about you guys, but I'm at least going to pretend to obey the guy with the flaming sword until he goes away. Being stabbed is bad enough, but stabbed and on fire is worse. I really don't think that anythign would convince me beyond doubt that I was talking to God's messenger. If he hadn't given concrete proof of his existance for thousands of years, why would he send a guy with a sword to tell me to live in a cave?

03-16-2004, 11:46 PM	#11 (permalink)
wilbjammin * * *	I would have to know why... there is no teleological suspension of reason for me. __________________ Innominate.

03-17-2004, 01:59 AM	#12 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	To answer this question seriously, I recall it saying somewhere that an angel would proclaim and praise Jesus as Son of God (yes, this is all heavily Christian), whereas a demon (the other possibility) could/would not. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

03-17-2004, 06:51 AM	#13 (permalink)
rsl12 On the lam Location: northern va	personally, if I could be sure that the angel was a messenger of a benevolent God, I would gladly do as he said. The hard part is being sure... __________________ oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.

03-17-2004, 01:59 PM	#16 (permalink)
Mantus lascivious	A mischievous one. Just reaffirming rsl12’s statement that you simply can never be sure. I suppose I should have just said: what if God isn’t Christian, or the Devil doesn’t follow the rules we made up for him?

03-19-2004, 01:48 PM	#18 (permalink)
rsl12 On the lam Location: northern va	It could be a supercomputer? or a calculus database? Or it could be your friend joe with an earpiece so he can communicate with his other friend who has internet access? actually, that last one is ez to disprove though. just strip him naked, dunk him in a bathtub, and then ask him questions. __________________ oh baby oh baby, i like gravy.