PeaceFrog

I just finished a quite large project on absurdism at school, and the ideas behind it are really growing on me. I love that it has roots in the ideas Jean-Paul Satre and Albert Camus and the whole existentialist movement. Not to mention the absurdist theatre is totally excellent (Samuel Beckett, Edward Albee, Harold Pinter, etc...) But i digress. I was just wondering if anyone else took an interest in absurdism or absurdist ideas? Or if they have any information to share, i always love learning more about it.

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The only people for me are the mad ones...

dragon2fire

what is a absurdist

wilbjammin

Yes... I am a man of the absurd.

But, specifically, what kind of things would you like?

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Innominate.

phukraut

being a scientist, i can't really accept absurdism (the belief that human existence is irrational and meaningless). this just seems to be one step up from nihilism. although i can't dispute absurdism, it's just not very attractive! i'd prefer to live in "bad faith" =).

tecoyah

My only issue with absurdism....Tends to still spiritual growth until the phase passes, lots of fun though, kinda like a holidat from reality.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Sho Nuff

A tendency toward balance and order is the only thing on this planet that does make sense to me. I agree that there is no point to human existence though, outside of our DNA using us to pass itself on. The idea that there is a "divine" purpose to life is absurd in and of itself.

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I know Nietzsche doesnt rhyme with peachy, but you sound like a pretentious prick when you correct me.

Mantus

Another words even if there were a divine purpose to life, what would be the purpose of the divine?

If the divine being creates its own purpose though consciousness then why cant we just do the same?

wilbjammin

Hey!! You're talking like you've eatten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil!! Stop it!

Seriously though, thinking about the absurdity of the meaning of living with divinity as opposed to the absurdity of the meaning of living without divinity left me feeling as though questioning the existence of God was actually a moot point. Anyway, your second question sounds like something Sartre would say. Our purpose is to become our own Gods (what's the phrase? for-itself-in-itself). Anyway, I'm still wondering where this thread is directed. The absurd is full of possibilities for points of discussion; I'm hoping that the person who started this thread has some sort of direction to push this towards rather than it being the blanket "lets talk about the absurd".

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Innominate.

Mantus

I think that PeaceFrog started this thread as a general discusion of the Absurdism / Existentialism philosophy. I personally know very little about Existentialism and I thank PeaceFrog for making this thread as I prompted me to give the philosophy a closer look. So far I am rather facinated by what I read.

John Henry

Buick Pie ate my toaster!

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"No one was behaving from very Buddhist motives. Then, thought Pigsy, he was hardly a Buddha, nor was he a monkey. Presently, he was a pig spirit changed into a little girl pretending to be a little boy to be offered to a water monster. It was all very simple to a pig spirit."

wilbjammin

For some reason, I'm reminded of DaDaism.

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Innominate.

John Henry

Right on! Let's have some nice, structured, orderly absurdism!

wilbjammin

Yeah, come on, who's with me?!!

Well, it isn't that unreasonable, as stated in my earlier post - there is a difference between chaos and absurdity.

I'd suggest if we want a place to start talking about the absurd, how about discussing the nature of the absurd? When we talk about the absurd, what do we mean? What are some some absurd reasonings that you have personally come up with that have sent you into unanswered quandries about existence/universe/meaning at large?

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Innominate.

Rodney

I knew a guy who was a huge absurdist -- in every aspect of his life.

Anyway, this guy, a long-time but somewhat down-at-the-heels bookseller, ran for city council in this very uptight, senior-heavy community he lived in. Filed the papers and all; he was linguist in a former life, and -- I'm not kidding -- had signs made up and posters made that read, "Vote for Everett Cunningham, the Cunning Linguist." I don't remember his full platform, but among other things he proposed a youth center for low-riders in the middle of a gated, exclusive senior citizens community so that seniors and low-riders could "get to know each other better." There were some shrieks of outrage, but the local politicos were rolling on the floor laughing (in private, anyway), and the papers had a great time with it. He was a hell of a character, dead now 10 years or so. Kind of peculiar to do business with -- but then, he _was_ an absurdist in every way. I miss Everett. And if you want to live absurdist, you've gotta go a long way to measure up to him.

Mantus

I am having a bit of trouble understanding absurdism.

It seems to take things out of context and then say: “look that makes no sense”…well obviously…

Am I wrong?

taliendo

absurd is an adjective meaning : 1. inconsistent with logic or reason or commonsense 2. completely devoid of wisdom or good sense.

Here Camus described it as such :
Absurdity springs from two absolutely certain principles;
1. “I can negate everything of that part of me that lives in vague nostalgias, except this desire for unity, this longing to solve, this need for clarity and cohesion”.

This desire for unity is true of many aspects of human existence:

Unity of one’s life
Beauty and sense of the natural world
Meaning of the human world
Scientific endeavour to understand the universe
Even in discovery of the absurdity of life and of the world, many existentialist philosophers (Kierkegaard, Chestov, Jaspers, Husserl) have a paradoxical way of reinstating desire for unity

2. Strangeness of the world, the fact that the world is radically indifferent, not even opposed to, but brutally unconcerned by this desire:

“I can refute everything in this world surrounding me that offends or enraptures me, except this chaos, this sovereign chance (hazard in French) and this divine equivalence which springs from anarchy”.

All the aspects mentioned above are confronted with the brutal denial of the world and nature: death, indifference of nature, lack of meaning of human world, limits of scientific explanation, contradiction of philosophers.

Absurdity lies neither in 1. nor in 2. but is the relationship of both.
. . . . . . .

The fact that America produces enough food stuffs too feed all the people of the world (five times over) -- yet has a government that pays farmers to let grain rot in their silo is absurd. You can raise whatever argument about economics and prosperity that you want, but the fact is -- letting one nation wallow in the filth of riches while people starve to death is devoid of wisdom and commonsense.

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-LIFE IS ABSURD-

Mantus

Thank you so much for that. I hope I getting this right; absurdism rests on the facts that:

1. Nothing is certain accept the fact that human beings are searching for understanding.

2. The world doesn’t help us out.

Do I have it right? I need to give this more though.


- - - - - - - -

It distracted me but I must comment.

The answer to your dilemma is instinct. Think about the people that control our present day society. What is the one thing that they have in common? Money is the answer. The greed for money is the manifestation of our reproductive instincts for the ones on top have the highest chance of mating. Essentially we are governed by individuals who are the most in touch with their inner ape.

taliendo

Now that, is truly absurd. heheh

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-LIFE IS ABSURD-

Mantus

Why do you say that? I came upon this conclusion years ago and still stand by it because I have yet to see a better explanation.

Our primary instinct is the drive to procreate. A male increases his chance of procreation by being an appealing choice for a female. What constitutes that appeal is the ability to support both the offspring and the mate. Ownership of property and power provides that ability. In the past the guy with the most money would have been the chief of the tribe with the most muscle, intellect and the sharpest stick. Now it is the guy with the best stock portfolio and an important seat in government. It is the most obvious explanation for such behavior therefore chances are that it is true.


The theory above is a rather good example of what I don’t understand about Absurdism. Things seem absurd if we do not understand their place in the world, yet time and time again we are shown that everything fits into the system. Everything is connected and as long as you keep it in the context of the system then it makes sense. Of course there is no purpose for the system (universe) to exist as a whole, or perhaps no purpose that we have found or understood.

wilbjammin

Not only is there no purpose for the system to exist, but the meaning of the system is lacking. The only reason anything means anything is that it is assigned by people. Why do we value money, art, television, love, etc etc? Does our existence actually matter in a teleological sense? Or even in a relative sense?

These questions, and that experience of distance between our lives and having a fundamental reason to live (rather than a relative) are what makes <b>suffering</b> such a key focus of the absurd. Things can be explained to a point, and then all breaks down at some point when asking "why?" over and over again.

Additionally, the system does not generate meaning for individuals spontaneously. We have to find our place to experience that sense of unity (and it is entirely possible to find a tract within the system and do everything right and still feel that emptiness... understanding the system and your place within it does not necessarily grant one a feeling of purpose). It is hard to find unity when you know in every action you make there is no fundamental meaning behind it, only relative meaning. This problem is what leads Albert Camus to start his essay "An Absurd Reasoning" with the fundamental question of suicide. If life is not worth living then we should all end it now, certainly, but what Camus notes is true - suicide does not end the problem. The absurd is not negated, just the person experiencing the absurd if one commits suicide. From this point, he begins explaining that the only way in Good Faith to live in the absurd is in rebellion of it. Knowing it exists, facing it, and living in defiance of it.

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Innominate.

taliendo

Mantus -

I agree with your perception, I think that its very sound. It just seems to me that the 'system' is then an absurd one. It doesn't really make logical sense - this does not mean that I don't find it a valid argument. (and I just had to laugh a little bit - its fun to laugh at myself sometimes!)

wil- thanks for the explanation - took the words out of my mouth! (or perhaps Camus' mouth. . .)

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-LIFE IS ABSURD-

wilbjammin

You're welcome, and it should be noted that you did that to me earlier in this thread. You did a fine job explaining what the absurd is which saved me the effort of typing it out.

Yeah, as for Camus, I love his mind. I've been reading through his notebooks a lot lately. Life can have a way of slipping away, but when you read Camus and keep the absurd and concept of revolt and rebellion in mind it helps a lot. What I have been impressed with specifically (since I just had a hard break-up) is the focus on solitude in his notebooks.


<small>"How can it be that, linked to such suffering, her face is still the face of happiness for me?" August, 1942

"Four months of ascetic and solitary life. The will, the mind profit form it. But the heart?" - February, 1943

"The great problem to be solved "practically": can one be happy and solitary?" - February, 1943

"<i>Misunderstanding.</i> The wife, after the husband's death: 'How I love him.' " - June, 1943

"One writes in moments of despair. But what is despair?" - November, 1943


</small>Ha, see, defining what you are talking about is an important step in any situation... and surprisingly difficult often.


<small>"A love can be preserved only for reasons external to love. Moral reasons, for instance" - November, 1943

"Unbearable solitude - I cannot believe it or resign myself to it." October, 1946

"You begin by loving no one. Then you love all men as a group. Later on you love only a few, then a single woman, and finally one man alone." September, 1948

"How to live without a few good reasons for despairing!" September, 1948</small>


In any event, as great as Camus is with the absurd, solitude, revolt, etc... I do suggest branching out well beyond him in regards to these things and all else. I tend to start any reading with a consideration of the absurd and how the author or thinker addresses it; it gives me a sense of how ultimate (or irrelevent)the meaning will be for me.

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Innominate.

Mantus

Thank you both for the replies. I just started reading Camus. I'll come back to this once I understand it better.

Cheers