yellowgowild

I don't know what else to do in this country to fix whats wrong. I notice the parallels to the fall of ancient Rome all the time and it's depressing as hell. But my question is, can a country be as powerful as we are and still maintain it's good morals? Or does the quest for power invariably lead to hipocrisy and moral decay?

lurkette

It depends on what you mean by "good morals." Are you talking about the personal behavior of its citizens, or the actions taken by the government on behalf of the populace? Or both?

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mr sticky

The country merely reflects its citizenry. A country is made up of individuals that coalesce into the whole. If you want to change the country, start at home.

nuff said.

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Xell101

THe government affects the people, the media affects the people, the culture affects the people. The government, media, and cuture are people, people are affected by what they have created. Society is all of those combined, yet society affects the people.

Kyo

It's a circular condition - society affects the people, who affect society. Keep in mind that 'morals', the way we use the term in everyday speech, are determined by the majority. We believe cannabalism is wrong because everyone around us does too - we were raised in a society where the majority felt it was wrong, we were taught it was wrong, and therefore it is wrong. Cannibals obviously don't think that way.

Therefore, if everyone likes to drink, it becomes moral to drink. If everyone wants to have wild, rampant sex, it becomes moral to do so. If everyone likes to see women sell their bodies on national television, it becomes moral to do so. If everyone likes to cheat on their spouses, it becomes moral to do so.

What we see in America is regression - the reduction of self-control and discipline. People are returning to the animalistic behavior they think is 'correct': making merry as often as they can, fucking everything that moves, doing whatever 'makes them feel good'. That's what animals do, and that's what this society is turning into.

I'm not that old, and I can still remember when adultery appalled people. Nowadays people brush it off because it is so commonplace. The day when it becomes standard practice is just over the horizon.

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ARTelevision

There aren't any moral countries.
It's a non sequitur.

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Food Eater Lad

The problem with America is that the people think that the government should solve all their problems. We are loosing our rugged indivduality. Rather than work hard and succed, people are demanding that government pay for health care, and other social security blankets. People are supposed to take care of themselves.
We are becoming lazy and dependant on "daddy" to take care of us.

Kyo

Of course, because the citizens determine the moral standard.

And it isn't only that we rely on 'daddy' to support us, it's that we've become a society of mirth and happiness. People have become so obsessed with feeling good and being happy all the time that they think they can do anything. Too many people, especially young people, take 'America is a free country' literally.

If money is your thing, it doesn't matter that you have to sell your body to get it, or backstab your best friend. It doesn't matter that millions of people lose their life savings - as long as you get a profit. Hey, we can cheat the government, they waste our money anyway! Taxes? I don't pay no stinkin taxes. Doesn't matter that I'm essentially stealing from everyone that does pay taxes.

It doesn't matter if drunk driving kills people - guys like to drink and they like to drive, and if they want to do both to hell with the law, and to hell with the nice family of 4 that died because you were a being a fucking jackass, right?

It doesn't matter that the President of the United States lied to the entire country on national television with a perfectly straight face. It doesn't matter that his credibility had gone past non-existant and was heading towards negative infinity at lightspeed. Oh no, it doesn't matter. It's perfectly normal for people to lie, even the President. We shouldn't hold him to a higher standard, no siree.

And sex, hey, sex feels good. If she's pretty and she's clean, nothing else matters, right? Bang her all night and go on to the next one. Oh yeah, you're a real stud.

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yellowgowild

I'm talking about the actions of the government. Sorry for not clarifying....

lurkette

(I added the italics.)

This assumes that the U.S. ever was a moral country in the first place. We have always had certain ideals, but I certainly wouldn't say we're a moral country. Look at Manifest Destiny, slavery, our treatment of Native Americans, our isolationism during the early years of WWII, the complete fuck-ups in South and Central America in the last 30 years, the School of the Americas, etc. I think the main difference recently is that a country as unopposedly powerful as we are now no longer feels much compunction about flaunting our power, since we have nobody to really smack us for it any more. This adminstration is just more blatant about it than past administrations.

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"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Kyo

The citizens do what they want and the leaders are not exactly the bastions of morality they should be. Heck, even the priests are child molestors - did that surprise anyone, by the way? Certainly didn't surprise me.

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Sledge

I'm the token ultraliberal within my family and certain groups I run with.

But for all the problems with the US I'd rather live here, or raise a child here, than anywhere else.

Granted, that's quite likely to change by the time I'm out of college.

Wyckd

watch bowling for columbine..

this country blows.. and its people are the most paranoid ever..

i first theorized it...

then believed it when some white lady said "you get SARs for eating chinese food"

and then my point was proven witht he research of "Michael Moore" movie maker of bowling for columbine.. WATCH IT!

Thraeryn

Wow, Kyo, you seem really hostile in some of those posts.

I say we try like Hell to adopt a morality like that of most people in Scandinavian countries, ie Sweden, Norway, et al. They don't have moral objections to sex or drugs, but they generally have STRONG moral objections to hurting each other. Shouldn't that be a starting point for the rest of us?

costello

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...&threadid=2651

thats the link to one of the bowling for columbine arguements ... its in the entertainment forum. anyway, i thought it was the greatest thing ive ever seen too, but my opinions definately changed when i read that thread. anyway i suggest you check it out as well. peace

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sexymama

You are right on, the key to morality is respecting others and ourselves. It is not about power and judgement! What may be moral to me may be immoral to you. As long as I'm not hurting you or others, it should not matter.

As for the government, it is not perfect and never has been. However, it is better than a lot of countries. If you don't like something, do something to change it. If you aren't willing to act, then you have no space to judge.

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If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god

It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

Thraeryn

Hey, you see the "Vote Libertarian" link in my signature. There's a party that wants to bring about change, and for the better, too.

yellowgowild

Don't even get me started on "Bowling for Columbine", and what a misleading film it is. Micheal Moore lies by using truth taken out of context (clever editing).

skinbag

I'd rather raise my children in Europe or in Scandinavia. i've been to Europe and they have a real culture where we have mass media blitzing. And believe it or not, many of them develop and grow by talking over beers or patronizing a "brown cafe" where they can smoke herb and converse instead of hiding from the "moral majority". I got the feeling our laws are mainly for protecting business or getting votes, while their laws are mostly for social health.
" I pledge alleigance to the flag of the United States of America and the corporation for which it stands.."

nofnway

bowling for columbine pleeez......talk about fantasy

We do have open borders an you are free to leave at any time.

it is not that far from LA

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Dano069

Amen to that! The American dream that gets spoken of so often requires WORK. Not winning the Lotto, not suing McDonalds because you were stupid enough to spill coffee on you lap and, shock of all shocks, it was HOT!

The government is not here to baby me. It should stay out of my life, especially my bedroom. I've watch with amusement and then anger the way our country is going. Warning labels on everything from coffee stirrers to plastic bags. A little common sense here folks.

Nothing should be handed to you. Work for it. That's what our forefather's did. They left whatever country they came from to build a life here. The key word there is build.

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bermuDa

countries don't maintain morals, individuals do.

and morals are social constructs anyways, our "good" morals differ from someone elses.

Even within government, the morality of the government's actions are determined by the individuals who run it.
Moral policies adopted by a governing body are merely reflections of the moral upbringing of those rulers or legislators, like Bush's recent donations and public support of high school abstinence programs and religious organizations.

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