Jesus - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

mac Daddy · 09-08-2003, 08:56 PM

How can a Christian say he wants to be like Christ but practices Christianity. Jesus was a Jew. Never a Christian. To be like Christ you must be like a Jew. Okay you Christian heretics explain.....

Spektr · 09-08-2003, 09:05 PM

I'm a Jew, don't get me started on the whole Jesus thing

Johnny Rotten · 09-08-2003, 09:27 PM

As I understand it, Christ didn't preach Judaism. He preached the ideals that became the Christian faith.

filtherton · 09-08-2003, 09:53 PM

I think most christians strive to follow the teachings of christ, not to actualy be christ.

chavos · 09-08-2003, 09:54 PM

This has all the hallmarks of a troll, but my asnwer, nonetheless:

IMO, you don't have to refute the ideals and faith of judiasm to accept christ's teachings...i don't think you can be faithful to some of the traditions that have grown to be a part of the religion, eg: kosher. but if you look to the summations of the message of judiasm that the rabbis would identify in scripture, they are the same good news that Jesus proclaimed. Love God, love one another... Now, this formulation obviously has a great deal of commentary, but the concept at the core is that God has been the one who has loved steadfastly (hesed), acted to redeem and rescue (go'el) and has sought justice (halakah) . God seeks for these same actions and values to be a part of the lives humankind. reading the parables...i find the exact same teachings.

Pardon any errors in the hebrew, but those are the transliterations i remember...

My final witicism is that those boundaries mean nothing to one who is truely one with God, for as the Apostle Paul writes, "there is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female, all are one in Christ Jesus."

archer2371 · 09-09-2003, 01:32 PM

Well said chavos, well said.

prosequence · 09-10-2003, 12:00 PM

Let's not forget that Christian means to act Christ-like. The race and origin has very little to do with belief and actions.

ie. Lets say oh, I don't know, hmm, you live in a Democratic society, doesn't make you a democrat or even that you vote.

DownwardSpiral · 09-12-2003, 04:04 PM

This is why it's a lot easier not to have a religion or anything.

filtherton · 09-12-2003, 05:32 PM

Ease of use is vital when developing an understanding of the world in which you live.

EeOh1 · 09-12-2003, 08:34 PM

The basis of the Christian religion, regardless of book-based answers, is the belief in Christ. More so, the belief that Jesus was our Savior and that he died on the cross for us. It is my understanding that the Jews recognize Jesus as a man of great deeds, but not the Son of God, and it is the Christian's belief that he was, in fact, the Son of God and died on the cross for our sins.

inkriminator · 09-13-2003, 02:50 AM

First let me begin with my basic assumptions of Christianity/Judiasm.

Christians are jews who believe the messiah has come
Jews believe the messiah's a little late.

If I'm wrong on these my apologies
but if not...
The way my friend explained it to me is that there is something inherent in the nature of the Messiah that would be immediately recognizable without necessarily being explicitly stated. Thus although Jesus would come as a Jew, he would also be like a signpost saying, "Judiasm is now over, follow me to the Lord"

or something to that effect.

Flesh · 09-13-2003, 04:02 AM

religion is a scam

djm · 09-14-2003, 11:52 PM

Man, religions are all just screwed up, aren't they?

Mojo_PeiPei · 09-15-2003, 10:12 AM

Religions are fine, people are retarded.

johnnymysto · 09-15-2003, 10:27 AM

OK, and now a response that actually seeks to answer the question.

The Jews obey(ed) the Mosaic law. That is, the law that God gave to Moses in the Old Testament. This law was extremely detailed and required sacrifices for all kinds of things. You had to do each one right, and you had to do the right one for the right sin. Jesus came to do away with the law. The covenant that God made with man through Jesus was simply to put your faith in Jesus. This was made complete by Jesus' death on the cross. In doing so, he took the full punishment for man's sins. Now, you no longer need to obey the intricacies of Mosaic law because the ultimate and final sacrifice for sin has been made by Jesus. You only need to accept the fact that He did that and believe it.

EDIT: Ignore this. [Hence, though Jesus was a Jew, he did not promote or continue the practice of the Mosaic Law.]

Any questions?

chavos · 09-15-2003, 11:26 AM

Well, one. Matthew 5:17-20 doesn't agree with that at all.

Personally, i don't think this is accurate, and is an indication of Matthew's partisanship. But, if you're going to hold to a traditional critque of the Law, you will face this difficulty. This passage can't really have less authority than the ones you have already cited if you hold to a all or nothing approach.

bennyb · 09-15-2003, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Flesh
religion is a scam

Amen to that. Church is corrupt.

*sigh*

But people still devote their lives to it. If you want to practice religion, do it on your own terms.

MSD · 09-15-2003, 02:06 PM

To be a Christian and be like Christ means to dedicate life to doing good deeds, helping the less fortunate, and spreading the religion to those who will accept it.

djm · 09-15-2003, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
To be a Christian and be like Christ means to dedicate life to doing good deeds, helping the less fortunate, and spreading the religion to those who will accept it.

And have long hair and wear robes.

Beltruckus · 09-15-2003, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by djm
And have long hair and wear robes.

No, bad dog, no bone for you.

prosequence · 09-16-2003, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bennyb
Amen to that. Church is corrupt.

*sigh*

But people still devote their lives to it. If you want to practice religion, do it on your own terms.

Yeah, them and those politicians, maybe they should both go away?

loganmule · 09-16-2003, 07:05 PM

johnnymysto, a question...same god, but two sets of rules? And why did he need to alter (ie, trash) the first set in favor of the second?

rogue49 · 09-16-2003, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by inkriminator
Christians are jews who believe the messiah has come
Jews believe the messiah's a little late.

Bingo.
This is the core distinction....in simplest terms.

However, the whole faith has been expanded upon over time,
with the whole New Testimate and all.
Not to mention the divisions of Christianity over time and each of their interpretations of the Word.
And of course, Judism has it's divisions & interpretations too.

Makes for a lot of confusion
and much arguement.

johnnymysto · 09-17-2003, 05:19 AM

Loganmule,

That is a very good question. I've asked that myself several times - why didn't Jesus just come and die after Adam and Eve screwed up? That would have simplified things a lot. But, part of the faith of Christianity is believing that God has a perfect plan. Therefore, we must trust that He knows what He's doing.

If we just accept that God had a reason for using the Law for salvation first, then we can continue from there by saying that as time went on, the religious leaders got more and more away from the intent of the Law and instead focused on using the Law as a tool for oppression. It got to the point where people were berated and punished for not following every little detail. So the effect of Jesus' death was to move salvation from obeying the Law to a state of your heart. Believe in your heart that Jesus died for you and that He is your only source for salvation, then live your life according to His commands and guidance.

I am going to edit my above post, due to what Chavos pointed out to me. I misspoke myself. Jesus indeed did not come to buck the system. He merely removed the point of salvation from diligent obedience to the Law. Thanks, Chavos.

chavos · 09-17-2003, 06:21 AM

its important not to see judiasm as purely the legalistic "enemy" religion, that Jesus stands against with the universalistic mercy faith....grace is a concept not alien to Jews before Christ.

the idea that the Law, a way of trying to place reverence for God in to the everyday life of the people, was going to be changed radically goes back to the prohpets. Jerimiah notes that the people have ceased to live lives of authentic beleif through the Law, because it is external to them. He writes of a time when it will be written upon our hearts, and God can truely be our God. Paul picks up on this, and it is an important way to view Jesus, remembering that the original language and idea does come from before Christ's time.

jwoody · 09-17-2003, 06:30 AM

The simple answer to the question is that, in the time and place Jesus grew up everybody was either a jew or a damn good runner.

Jesus Pimp · 09-18-2003, 04:40 AM

I'm asian dammit!

StormBerlin · 09-18-2003, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
Religions are fine, people are retarded.

I agree completely. That is the little peice of info that most do not understand.

Wyckd · 09-20-2003, 05:06 PM

Jesus was jew in race only... not in his faith..

and christians dont say they want to be like christ... thats the catholics..

christians say since jesus was a god, and we are fallen men,... it is impossible for us to do as much good as jesus did..

when we do good, we hav our own little motives... to gain something in return... or good according to law or society..

09-22-2003, 09:46 PM

First of all, let's get something straight... Jesus wasn't the first guy to preach loving one another. His views on life and how to live it were held long before him. Hilel for example. Jesus was a great example of a human being but he never meant to start his own religion. He was born a Jew and died a Jew. I think a lot of Christians forget this fact.

Lebell · 09-22-2003, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wyckd
Jesus was jew in race only... not in his faith..

Uh, excuse me?

Jesus was very much Jewish.

- Jesus engaged in that time honored Jewish tradition of going to the temple and engaging in debate with other Jewish men.

- He celebrated the Passover meal in Jewish fashion

- He knew his Torah intimately.

- He instructed those around Him in the true meaning of the Jewish law.

So what on Earth leads you to believe Jesus wasn't Jewish???

archer2371 · 09-23-2003, 12:55 PM

"Some people say that Jesus wasn't Jewish. Of course he was Jewish, he followed in the family business, his mother thought he was the gift from God, and he lived at home until he was 30."
~Robin Williams.

In all seriousness tho, Jesus was a Jew. Whoever said that Christians are just Jews that believe the Messiah has already come is completely correct (in a very basic sense tho).

mac Daddy · 10-02-2003, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jwoody
The simple answer to the question is that, in the time and place Jesus grew up everybody was either a jew or a damn good runner.

Now think about this response to my original statement. Next think of the people who hung Jesus to the cross? Who's picture was on their currency? The two answers are Romans and Caesar was on the coin. Ie "give to Caesar what is Caesar".

mac Daddy · 10-02-2003, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by prosequence
Let's not forget that Christian means to act Christ-like. The race and origin has very little to do with belief and actions.

ie. Lets say oh, I don't know, hmm, you live in a Democratic society, doesn't make you a democrat or even that you vote.

To start Jewish is both race and religion. As in the case of Edith Stein who was a Catholic nun persecuted by the Nazis for being a Jew. The Jewish religion is the basis for Christianity. The old testament is a translation of the Torah. Jesus believed and acted as a Jew according to God's law.

mac Daddy · 10-02-2003, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
Uh, excuse me?

Jesus was very much Jewish.

- Jesus engaged in that time honored Jewish tradition of going to the temple and engaging in debate with other Jewish men.

- He celebrated the Passover meal in Jewish fashion

- He knew his Torah intimately.

- He instructed those around Him in the true meaning of the Jewish law.

So what on Earth leads you to believe Jesus wasn't Jewish???

Good answer to this. This person should read the new testement a little better. The deciples refered to Jesus as Rabbi. The last supper was on the Shabbat or Sabbath as Christians say. The Sabbath as Christians celebrate as the Lord's day is Sunday. The Shabbat that Jesus celebrated is that of the Jews of today Saturday. Looks like someone has a little more reading to do.

mac Daddy · 10-02-2003, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by loganmule
johnnymysto, a question...same god, but two sets of rules? And why did he need to alter (ie, trash) the first set in favor of the second?

The altering is a good question because GOD is infallable. To think of it that way is to question because you don't have the answer. Free will is why they had to be changed. We blew it big time. Because GOD loved us he gave us another chance in Jesus.

chavos · 10-02-2003, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Jesus believed and acted as a Jew according to God's law.

Luk 6:2_
And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?

To simply state that Jesus lived according to the law is to ignore a lot of scripture. he comes in to conflict with the religious systems around him, and he makes teachings that are very alien to Jewish practice. "Take, eat, this is my blood." is literaly heresy. But Jesus teaches it. As i stated before, i don't think there is a conflict of ideals, only practice. But if you want to claim that being Christian requires strict obiedience to the Law, i think you've discounted much of the Pauline letters, and Acts for that matter.

PulpMind · 10-03-2003, 02:17 AM

I asked a Jewish friend of mine what it is about the whole Jews and Christians being Jews who have their Messiah, and why Christians don't follow Jewish practice... she stated that, as she understands... basically, Jews killed Jesus, and therefore the early Christians denounced Jewish practice in favor of following purely what Jesus preached and creating alot of honkey dorey holidays for themselves.

PulpMind · 10-03-2003, 02:19 AM

oh, and when I've tried asking more learned Christian elders around me (what I grew up around), I've never really gotten an answer... interestingly..

numist_net · 10-03-2003, 02:45 PM

My friend said it best when we were in high school:

He said he was more like Jesus than anyone else: they were/are both the world's worst Jews.

09-08-2003, 08:56 PM	#1 (permalink)
mac Daddy Upright Location: Cali	Jesus How can a Christian say he wants to be like Christ but practices Christianity. Jesus was a Jew. Never a Christian. To be like Christ you must be like a Jew. Okay you Christian heretics explain.....

09-08-2003, 09:27 PM	#3 (permalink)
Johnny Rotten lost and found Location: Berkeley	As I understand it, Christ didn't preach Judaism. He preached the ideals that became the Christian faith. __________________ "The idea that money doesn't buy you happiness is a lie put about by the rich, to stop the poor from killing them." -- Michael Caine

09-09-2003, 01:32 PM	#6 (permalink)
archer2371 Sarge of Blood Gulch Red Outpost Number One Location: On the front lines against our very enemy	Well said chavos, well said. __________________ "This ain't no Ice Cream Social!" "Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it." "I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."

09-10-2003, 12:00 PM	#7 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	Let's not forget that Christian means to act Christ-like. The race and origin has very little to do with belief and actions. ie. Lets say oh, I don't know, hmm, you live in a Democratic society, doesn't make you a democrat or even that you vote. __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

09-12-2003, 04:04 PM	#8 (permalink)
DownwardSpiral The Funeral of Hearts Location: Trapped inside my mind. . .	This is why it's a lot easier not to have a religion or anything. __________________ "So Keep on Pretending. Our Heavens Worth the Waiting. Keep on Pretending. It's Alright." -- H.I.M., "Pretending"

09-08-2003, 09:05 PM	#2 (permalink)
Spektr Copacetic Location: Nati	I'm a Jew, don't get me started on the whole Jesus thing

09-08-2003, 09:53 PM	#4 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I think most christians strive to follow the teachings of christ, not to actualy be christ.

09-08-2003, 09:54 PM	#5 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	This has all the hallmarks of a troll, but my asnwer, nonetheless: IMO, you don't have to refute the ideals and faith of judiasm to accept christ's teachings...i don't think you can be faithful to some of the traditions that have grown to be a part of the religion, eg: kosher. but if you look to the summations of the message of judiasm that the rabbis would identify in scripture, they are the same good news that Jesus proclaimed. Love God, love one another... Now, this formulation obviously has a great deal of commentary, but the concept at the core is that God has been the one who has loved steadfastly (hesed), acted to redeem and rescue (go'el) and has sought justice (halakah) . God seeks for these same actions and values to be a part of the lives humankind. reading the parables...i find the exact same teachings. Pardon any errors in the hebrew, but those are the transliterations i remember... My final witicism is that those boundaries mean nothing to one who is truely one with God, for as the Apostle Paul writes, "there is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female, all are one in Christ Jesus."

09-12-2003, 05:32 PM	#9 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	Ease of use is vital when developing an understanding of the world in which you live.

09-12-2003, 08:34 PM	#10 (permalink)
EeOh1 Crazy	The basis of the Christian religion, regardless of book-based answers, is the belief in Christ. More so, the belief that Jesus was our Savior and that he died on the cross for us. It is my understanding that the Jews recognize Jesus as a man of great deeds, but not the Son of God, and it is the Christian's belief that he was, in fact, the Son of God and died on the cross for our sins. __________________ If life gives you lemons...throw them at someone.

09-13-2003, 02:50 AM	#11 (permalink)
inkriminator Insane	First let me begin with my basic assumptions of Christianity/Judiasm. Christians are jews who believe the messiah has come Jews believe the messiah's a little late. If I'm wrong on these my apologies but if not... The way my friend explained it to me is that there is something inherent in the nature of the Messiah that would be immediately recognizable without necessarily being explicitly stated. Thus although Jesus would come as a Jew, he would also be like a signpost saying, "Judiasm is now over, follow me to the Lord" or something to that effect.

09-13-2003, 04:02 AM	#12 (permalink)
Flesh Psycho	religion is a scam

09-14-2003, 11:52 PM	#13 (permalink)
djm Upright Location: Seattle	Man, religions are all just screwed up, aren't they? __________________ Don't call my name out your window; I'm leaving.

09-15-2003, 10:12 AM	#14 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Religions are fine, people are retarded. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

09-15-2003, 10:27 AM	#15 (permalink)
johnnymysto Overreactor Location: South Ca'lina	OK, and now a response that actually seeks to answer the question. The Jews obey(ed) the Mosaic law. That is, the law that God gave to Moses in the Old Testament. This law was extremely detailed and required sacrifices for all kinds of things. You had to do each one right, and you had to do the right one for the right sin. Jesus came to do away with the law. The covenant that God made with man through Jesus was simply to put your faith in Jesus. This was made complete by Jesus' death on the cross. In doing so, he took the full punishment for man's sins. Now, you no longer need to obey the intricacies of Mosaic law because the ultimate and final sacrifice for sin has been made by Jesus. You only need to accept the fact that He did that and believe it. EDIT: Ignore this. [Hence, though Jesus was a Jew, he did not promote or continue the practice of the Mosaic Law.] Any questions? __________________ "I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request." - Capt. Barbossa Last edited by johnnymysto; 09-17-2003 at 05:21 AM..

09-15-2003, 11:26 AM	#16 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	Well, one. Matthew 5:17-20 doesn't agree with that at all. Personally, i don't think this is accurate, and is an indication of Matthew's partisanship. But, if you're going to hold to a traditional critque of the Law, you will face this difficulty. This passage can't really have less authority than the ones you have already cited if you hold to a all or nothing approach.

09-15-2003, 02:06 PM	#18 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	To be a Christian and be like Christ means to dedicate life to doing good deeds, helping the less fortunate, and spreading the religion to those who will accept it.

09-16-2003, 07:05 PM	#22 (permalink)
loganmule Junkie Location: midwest	johnnymysto, a question...same god, but two sets of rules? And why did he need to alter (ie, trash) the first set in favor of the second?

09-17-2003, 05:19 AM	#24 (permalink)
johnnymysto Overreactor Location: South Ca'lina	Loganmule, That is a very good question. I've asked that myself several times - why didn't Jesus just come and die after Adam and Eve screwed up? That would have simplified things a lot. But, part of the faith of Christianity is believing that God has a perfect plan. Therefore, we must trust that He knows what He's doing. If we just accept that God had a reason for using the Law for salvation first, then we can continue from there by saying that as time went on, the religious leaders got more and more away from the intent of the Law and instead focused on using the Law as a tool for oppression. It got to the point where people were berated and punished for not following every little detail. So the effect of Jesus' death was to move salvation from obeying the Law to a state of your heart. Believe in your heart that Jesus died for you and that He is your only source for salvation, then live your life according to His commands and guidance. I am going to edit my above post, due to what Chavos pointed out to me. I misspoke myself. Jesus indeed did not come to buck the system. He merely removed the point of salvation from diligent obedience to the Law. Thanks, Chavos. Last edited by johnnymysto; 09-17-2003 at 05:23 AM..

09-17-2003, 06:21 AM	#25 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	its important not to see judiasm as purely the legalistic "enemy" religion, that Jesus stands against with the universalistic mercy faith....grace is a concept not alien to Jews before Christ. the idea that the Law, a way of trying to place reverence for God in to the everyday life of the people, was going to be changed radically goes back to the prohpets. Jerimiah notes that the people have ceased to live lives of authentic beleif through the Law, because it is external to them. He writes of a time when it will be written upon our hearts, and God can truely be our God. Paul picks up on this, and it is an important way to view Jesus, remembering that the original language and idea does come from before Christ's time.

09-17-2003, 06:30 AM	#26 (permalink)
jwoody Shackle Me Not Location: Newcastle - England.	The simple answer to the question is that, in the time and place Jesus grew up everybody was either a jew or a damn good runner. __________________ .

09-18-2003, 04:40 AM	#27 (permalink)
Jesus Pimp The Original JizzSmacka	I'm asian dammit! __________________ Never date anyone who doesn't make your dick hard.

09-20-2003, 05:06 PM	#29 (permalink)
Wyckd Crazy Location: Los Angeles, CA	Jesus was jew in race only... not in his faith.. and christians dont say they want to be like christ... thats the catholics.. christians say since jesus was a god, and we are fallen men,... it is impossible for us to do as much good as jesus did.. when we do good, we hav our own little motives... to gain something in return... or good according to law or society..

09-22-2003, 09:46 PM	#30 (permalink)
noodle Guest	First of all, let's get something straight... Jesus wasn't the first guy to preach loving one another. His views on life and how to live it were held long before him. Hilel for example. Jesus was a great example of a human being but he never meant to start his own religion. He was born a Jew and died a Jew. I think a lot of Christians forget this fact.

09-23-2003, 12:55 PM	#32 (permalink)
archer2371 Sarge of Blood Gulch Red Outpost Number One Location: On the front lines against our very enemy	"Some people say that Jesus wasn't Jewish. Of course he was Jewish, he followed in the family business, his mother thought he was the gift from God, and he lived at home until he was 30." ~Robin Williams. In all seriousness tho, Jesus was a Jew. Whoever said that Christians are just Jews that believe the Messiah has already come is completely correct (in a very basic sense tho). __________________ "This ain't no Ice Cream Social!" "Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it." "I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."

10-03-2003, 02:17 AM	#38 (permalink)
PulpMind Addict Location: Portland	I asked a Jewish friend of mine what it is about the whole Jews and Christians being Jews who have their Messiah, and why Christians don't follow Jewish practice... she stated that, as she understands... basically, Jews killed Jesus, and therefore the early Christians denounced Jewish practice in favor of following purely what Jesus preached and creating alot of honkey dorey holidays for themselves.

10-03-2003, 02:19 AM	#39 (permalink)
PulpMind Addict Location: Portland	oh, and when I've tried asking more learned Christian elders around me (what I grew up around), I've never really gotten an answer... interestingly..

10-03-2003, 02:45 PM	#40 (permalink)
numist_net Banned Location: UCSD	My friend said it best when we were in high school: He said he was more like Jesus than anyone else: they were/are both the world's worst Jews.