Free Will - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

MuadDib · 08-13-2003, 07:01 PM

One possible solution to this dilemma is in a kinda Frank Herbert way of looking at it. Not that prophets (or gods) can see the future precisely, rather they can see all possible futures and also, through knowledge of the present, see which paths are unfolding and most likely. Also the very ability to see the future would shape it in a way as well.

Just one way to look at it.

CSflim · 08-14-2003, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MacGnG
just because one doesn't believe in God doesn't mean they cant blame everything on a "higher being" or anyone else for that matter

either way that was just an outlandish statement that was made in my presence; i was using it to get a point across.

when people say "we have no free will" to me thats what it is saying.... "i have no free will so i can BLAME everything on someone else"... meaning they do not want to take responsibility for their own actions because "how can they be MY OWN actions if everything was predetermined."

I don't wish to pass up the consequences of my actions onto a "higher being", God or other wise.

I also explained that I did not believe that actions are deterministic.

I believe that good deeds should be rewarded, and bad deeds punished, in the same way that a defective engine part gets removed. It may not have been that engine part's "choice" to go wrong, but that doesn't mean that action shouldn't be taken against it.
The carrot and the stick still applies whether you have free will or not.

As for my "outlandish" statement, I was merely responding to your answer:

Quote:

Originally posted by MacGnG
what is your opinion on this statement:
"You don't accept that you have free will so you can blame whatever happends on someone else."

Quote:

Originally posted by CSflim
that doesn't really make sense, if free will doesn't exist, then who am I to blame "it" on? Whoever it is also doen't have free will.

Quote:

Originally posted by MacGnG
God?... "I have no free will so i can blame everything bad that happends on God, because he made me do it so its not my fault"

Quote:

Originally posted by CSflim
I don't believe in God.

Moonduck · 08-14-2003, 06:54 PM

CSflim, I'm not sure I follow you. Admittedly, I've not read closely, but I keep seeing you bring up random things like radioactive decay and dice rolling and asking if this is free will. What is the point of auch a line of questioning? Perhaps it is best if you set about your definition of free will, that way we can see what objective criteria you are using to either accept or deny its' existence.

I am not asking this as a challenge, but as a legitimate question. We've argued free will quite a bit, but I am not certain anyone has taken the time to define what it is we are speaking of.

To counter the questions that I saw you ask:

1) Computer program - Yes, it 'makes choices', but those choices are based on pre-set instructions. Given the same set of inputs, a computer program will make the same precise choice again and again. It must do so because it is ruled by a set of algorithms that determine its' choices. It is also not sentient. I think I am fairly safe in positing that sentience is necessary for free will.

2) Rolling the dice - Certainly not free will. The die does not make any decision whatsoever. While it may not act the same in every given situation, there is neither reasoning behind its' acts nor sentience with which to decide what act to take.

3) Radioactive decay - see #2 for refutations of insensate objects lacking the facilities for free will.

--

Taking the argument in a slightly different direction, let's assume that our hypothetical being sees THE future. Not A future, not one of many possible futures, but THE future. What is to say that there are not many paths to reach said future? If our being sees a world devastated by war, are there not multiple ways to which we could reach that point? Again, just because a future is perceived it does not mean that the choices taken to reach said future are necessarily predetermined.

jimk · 08-15-2003, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alchoholic Hero
blanket statements are not really a good way to go about things .................. are entirely determinalistic in their religious practices

"entirely"

glass houses, my friend........

CSflim · 08-15-2003, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jimk
"entirely"

glass houses, my friend........

Talk about nit picking. Alchoholic Hero was explaing the beliefs of Calvinism, which ARE deterministic.

CSflim · 08-15-2003, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moonduck
CSflim, I'm not sure I follow you. Admittedly, I've not read closely, but I keep seeing you bring up random things like radioactive decay and dice rolling and asking if this is free will. What is the point of auch a line of questioning? Perhaps it is best if you set about your definition of free will, that way we can see what objective criteria you are using to either accept or deny its' existence.

I am not asking this as a challenge, but as a legitimate question. We've argued free will quite a bit, but I am not certain anyone has taken the time to define what it is we are speaking of.

To counter the questions that I saw you ask:

1) Computer program - Yes, it 'makes choices', but those choices are based on pre-set instructions. Given the same set of inputs, a computer program will make the same precise choice again and again. It must do so because it is ruled by a set of algorithms that determine its' choices. It is also not sentient. I think I am fairly safe in positing that sentience is necessary for free will.

2) Rolling the dice - Certainly not free will. The die does not make any decision whatsoever. While it may not act the same in every given situation, there is neither reasoning behind its' acts nor sentience with which to decide what act to take.

3) Radioactive decay - see #2 for refutations of insensate objects lacking the facilities for free will.

My arguments were merely a sort of reductio ad absurdum type argument. I was showing that:

a) Just because we make choices does not give us free will
b) Just because our decions are unpredictible (like a dice) does not give us free will.
c) Just because quantum effects come into play in our brains does not give us free will.

As these were all arguments put forward to show that we have free will.

I guess I would say that we do have a free will of a sort, but then we are getting into the horredeous lingustic arguments that Art warned about.
I don't believe in some mystical force or some metaphysical mind. Rather our "free will" comes from the action of our brains.
In the same way that a computer could be programmed to learn and make choices, I believe that we too make choices in a similar manner.
(However, I DO NOT believe that our brains are algorithmic in nature. I believe that our minds are much more powerful than that. I am using a computer as a metaphor, rather than a direct analogy)

Quote:

Taking the argument in a slightly different direction, let's assume that our hypothetical being sees THE future. Not A future, not one of many possible futures, but THE future. What is to say that there are not many paths to reach said future? If our being sees a world devastated by war, are there not multiple ways to which we could reach that point? Again, just because a future is perceived it does not mean that the choices taken to reach said future are necessarily predetermined.

Well, that is called Fate, and it's somehting that I most definately do not believe in.
However, despite there being multiple routes to that predicted future, the being is still restricting the actual future to move along these particular timelines.
This I don't believe to be funadamentally different to restricing our actual future to moe along ONE particular timeline. (At least from the point of view of the argument at hand.)
To put it another way:
If a war was predicted, is it not possible (in theory) for all the world to then act so as to prevent any war in the future? If it is not, then surely our free will has been restricted. Forget momentarily about arguments about human nature etc. as they are not really relevant to this argument.
If a prediction is made that A, and it would be possible for A to be avoided if men acted in a particular way, B. Would that prediction invalidate mens free will?
If men really had free will they could prevent A by B, but the prediction disallows B, so it cannot be claimed that men are acting out of their own free will when they do not act out B.

prosequence · 08-15-2003, 03:14 PM

There is no such thing as FREE WILL, it comes at a cost.

MacGnG · 08-16-2003, 12:16 AM

CSflim: it wasnt directed at you. i was trying to get everyone's input.

but i get your point, the car engine got the idea across. now i understand where u come from, i dont agree but i understand the other side of the coin now

tiberry · 08-16-2003, 02:53 AM

What about the possibility that everything happens at the same moment? What if we stop thinking of time as linear, but as a single point; for that matter disregard time all together as time is only an illusion in the first place. Doesn't that make the argument easier? This way there isn't a 'future', and therefore nothing to predict. It all happens at once, we just don't perceive it that way (yet)...

CSflim · 08-16-2003, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tiberry
What about the possibility that everything happens at the same moment? What if we stop thinking of time as linear, but as a single point; for that matter disregard time all together as time is only an illusion in the first place. Doesn't that make the argument easier? This way there isn't a 'future', and therefore nothing to predict. It all happens at once, we just don't perceive it that way (yet)...

Well such an arguemnt would definately remove the possibility of free will. However it still raises the same problems of prediction. Can we, from out current vantage point predict what we are yet to experience?

John Henry · 08-16-2003, 05:56 AM

Relativity considers time to be a dimension exactly like the spatial ones, but which we percieve differently, so that our present is just a spatial cross section on our temporal axis. I can see my feet now, even though they have different spatial coordinates to my head. I am wearing socks, but at another point on my time axis, I am not. If, as is overwhelmingly likely, we exist in more dimensions than we percieve, I think that the fifth dimension would act as a meta-time, which would contain different projections of our other axes at different points of its own. Thus someone could see into the future as it stood, but the future could be changed by free-will.

Perhaps a simpler analogy is this: You are standing on one street (The present) looking down another that runs off it at right angles (the future), keep sidestepping (free will) and you are looking down another street (another future).

I think there might be a solution to the grandfather paradox in this multiple temporal axes notion, but I'm too stupid and lazy to work it out.

sixate · 08-16-2003, 11:52 AM

This is kinda long, but it's exactly how I feel about this topic.

LINKY

Quote:

<center>Free Will contradicts the idea of an Omniscient God

Who pulls your strings?

adj. omnipotent all-powerful
adj. omniscient all-knowing</center>

These are adjectives often applied to the christian god - he is all-powerful, unlimited in his ability, and knows all that can be known. We are often told that God knows all things throughout the entirety of time and space. Everything that can be known, he knows. Everything in the past, present and future is known to God. Fair enough. I wouldn't expect anything less from the Creator Of The Universe.

There's just one small problem...

Free Will. Religion teaches that God gave us free will, so that we may make our own decisions, decide our own futures, with no coercion from God. If we do good things or bad things it is entirely down to us, God just sits back and watches over us.

This makes no sense at all.
If God knows all things throughout time (as he must, if he is omniscient), then he knows every action I perform, every decision I make throughout my life, before I have done them. If God knows exactly what I am going to do on 10th July, 2030, then how can I do anything other than that?

God, however, being the Creator, had prior knowledge of your actions at the time of the Creation, billions of years ago. He set the universe in motion, knowing all that would happen throughout time.

Experiment

Try it for yourself.
Right now, this minute, exert your free will.
Do something, anything at all, that you don't think God could have possibly known you were going to do.

Can you do it? Can you surprise God?

If you can, then God is not omniscient - he is not all-knowing. And if he is not omniscient, then how can he be omnipotent - unlimited in his ability?

If you cannot, then how can you think you have free will? You cannot do anything other than that which God already knows you are going to do.

As an example, let's say you are walking down a corridor:
At the end of the corridor are two identical doors. Does God knowwhich door you will take? If he does, is it at all possible for you to take the other door? You have no choice in the matter, you have no free will.
If God does not know exactly which door you will take, then he quite simply is not omniscient.

Another example:
Does God know what I am going to eat for breakfast tomorrow?
I'll make it easy for Him : it could be either toast, cereal, porridge or nothing. Four options. Is it possible that God, who is infinitely powerful, in all places at once, having knowledge of all things, who created the space/time universe, who is utterly un-restrained by any physical laws and exists outside the space/time universe, does not know what I'm going to eat for breakfast in the morning?
How ridiculous is that? This omnipotent mega-being cannot accurately look 24 hours into my future? Think about it.

Let's say that God knows, infallibly, that in exactly one thousand hours from the time you read this, you will hit your thumb with a hammer whilst putting up a shelf. Let's start at the beginning...
Fourteen billion years ago, God created the universe. At the instant of creation, God knew the precise details of every event during the entire history of the newly-created universe. He knew how the hydrogen would disperse, and eventually condense to form stars and galaxies. He knew which stars would go nova in order to create the elements that will form planets, and He knew which planets would form in orbits suitable to develop and sustain life. He knew how the moon would orbit the Earth, making tides and washing the beaches. He knew where and when the first self-replicating molecules would form, and when the first amphibians would step onto land. He knew about the rise and fall of the reptiles, dinosaurs, birds, mammals, flowering plants and all the other freak accidents that directed the genetic flow through the millions of generations of plants and animals - the meteor strikes, forest fires, plagues, floods and landslides. He knew exactly what would happen to every single one of your ancestors - who would be born, who would die, who would marry whom, and so on, until you appeared. He knew everything that would happen to you in your life - where you would go to school, your exam grades, what jobs you had, where you lived, why you decided to build a shelf, where you earned the money to buy the hammer, where you made marks on the wall to get the shelf nice and level. All these things He knew would come to be as he Created the universe, right up to the exact microsecond that the hammer hit your thumb. When He created it all, He did so sure in the knowledge that at a certain point in time, you would be swearing loudly and holding your thumb under the cold tap (as well as, of course, everything else happening in the universe at that time). God created the universe so that events would unfold in this exact manner. He could have made it so that you were never born, or so that humans never appeared. He could have made it so that every single thing happened differently, or everything was the same apart from your accident.

Either way, you have no free will in the matter. The universe was made in such a way that everything you do must necessarily happen. Assuming, of course, that an omniscient, infallible God is behind it all...

Arguments against

One common counter-argument goes like this:
God knows what you are going to do, yes. But he does not cause you to do it. He simply observes your actions. His prior knowledge does not cause you take that action.
A reasonable argument, but quite flawed. Let's say I use a time-machine to travel forwards in time to next week. I write down all your actions on Thursday in a book, seal the book and travel back again. I present you with the sealed book and tell you not to open it until the end of Thursday. When you read it, you see that I had prior knowledge of all your actions. Did I remove your free will? NO, because I simply observed.
I did not set in motion all the events leading up to your actions, from the creation of the universe. At the moment God created the universe, surely He knew all that would happen throughout it's entire history. If so, then He is directly responsible for all our actions - we have no more choice in what we do than a clockwork toy does. If not, then we are part of some huge experiment which God set in motion without the faintest idea of what would happen - he sits back and observes as people die in terrible wars and plagues, ticking off boxes on His clipboard and writing notes like some emotionless scientist.

Another counter-argument, again flawed:
God exists throughout all time, yes, but he does not actually know what action you will perform until you perform it. He knows what choices you might take, but not the precise one itself.

This is quite absurd. It limits God within time. God, who is supposed be unlimited, existing outside of time, surely cannot be restricted by his own creation - time.

It also suggests that God's mind is filled with all the possible actions of all humans (and, presumably, all other life) throughout all of time. There is a portion of the mind of God devoted to whether or not I am going to pick my nose during every nanosecond of time, which possible objects your eyes could focus on at any particular instant, and which possible routes, to the nearest billionth of a millimeter you could travel on your work way to work. There are an infinite number of possible actions that each one of us could perform during our lifetime. God cannot, by definition, know an infinite number of things. (For the same reason that he cannot make a rock to heavy for him to lift, or create a square circle - it's a logical impossibility; meaningless word-play).

This might sound a little pedantic. But try this : lift your hand into the air - then move it slowly in a circle. How many other possible motions can you make with your hand? Obviously, an infinite number (although many will look quite similar). It is impossible for you to make your hand follow that exact path through space again. There are an infinite number of ways you could wiggle a finger or waggle your head. There are an infinite number of values between 0.0 and 1.0 (you could keep dividing a number forever); there are an infinite number of angles within a circle; there are an infinite number of positions to place an apple on a table, or a star in space, or a toothbrush in your mouth. Does God know what all these are? If something is infinite, as are the possible motions of your hand, then it cannot be known completely.

Therefore, omniscience itself is a logical impossibility. The idea of an omniscient being can be dismissed, quite literally, with a wave of the hand...

( This could be countered by arguing that God only knows about all the big decisions you might consciously make - he's not concerned with finger-wiggling and hand-waving. But how does he decide in advance what he is going to have knowledge of and what is not important enough to know about? Wiggle your fingers now - did God know you were going to do that or not? Was it below his importance-threshold? The more you think about it, the more ridiculous it all becomes. )

A third argument states that:
God can know all your actions, but he chooses not to, to ensure that you have free will.
This is also absurd. God denies himself access to his own knowledge?!? The main problem with this argument is that it defines what God is, how he works. How do you know that God does this? To use this argument is to state that you understand God's mind, which is supposed to incomprehensible to mere mortals.
It is a true cop-out - it cannot be disproved and neatly solves the problem. However, it is up to the person using this argument to prove how they know God does this, not just use it because it neatly sorts things out.

If you truly believe that you have free will, then how can you state that God is truly omniscient? If God does not know what you are going to do, then He is no more omniscient than Mystic Meg, TV Astrologer.
I have used this line of reasoning on several occasions when debating religion with theists, and the effect is quite suprising. Theists are quite happy to debate many aspects of their beliefs, but when it comes to free will, the mental barriers slam down into place. People get unreasonably upset by this argument and simply refuse to discuss it any further. It's very odd. I can only suppose that it is because it exposes such a gaping hole in their deeply-held beliefs that they simply refuse to let themselves think about it, because they know that their beliefs will not stand up in the face of this sort of simple logic.

As an afterthought, if God truly cannot see the future, for whatever reasons, then aren't all religious prophecies/predictions completely worthless? If even God does not know if it will come true, then what's the point of it? Or, if God knows it is going to come true (e.g. a certain person will become King at a certain time) then how could the people involved avoid the outcome - where is their free will?

Keg-o-Grog · 08-16-2003, 12:00 PM

we dont have completly free will either, what we chose is based on our personality. so we end up taking some stands as a human, and like other things and do other things than other humans, we're all different, and original, and intelectual. some choises are just too diverse, too different for your personality, you just wouldnt chose them. ofcorse you have the possibility to do just what you like, but that doesnt mean you will chose it.

so, i believe, there is no true and absolute free will, but only free will within the boundries of your own personality.

MacGnG · 08-16-2003, 06:17 PM

please explain why you wouldnt want free will?

edit: as for the article sixate posted:
God, by definition can do and choose whatever he wants, so choosing to give us free will by not seeing our thoughts makes complete sense and in no way contradicts anything.

sixate · 08-16-2003, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MacGnG
so choosing to give us free will by not seeing our thoughts makes complete sense and in no way contradicts anything.

I disagree. It contradicts everything. God is supposed to know all and see all that has happened and is supposed to know what is gonna happen even before it happens. So how is he not gonna know what I'm thinking at this moment. He should know exactly what I'm gonna type even before I type it. Therefore, I would have no free will if I believed in god. He'd just be pulling certain strings. He'd be the ultimate puppet master.

And lets say you are correct. Now don't you think that everyone who thanks god whenever they say he did something good for them is, well, just not too bright? You obviously think he does nothing to help or hurt anyone because we all have free will. So what's the point of going to church and praying to him. Sounds like a waste of time and energy to me. Sounds like he gave us all free will because he's too fucking lazy to make things right himself.

MacGnG · 08-16-2003, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sixate
God is supposed to...

Maybe He doesn't want to. i'm sure his job is much harder than any of ours will ever be. Who said He was supposed to do anything? HE didn't; I think thats where mans' ideas come into play. I'm not saying He doesnt do any thing, i'm just saying it's just as likely that he doesn't do a specific thing, or that he does it differently.

Quote:

Sounds like he gave us all free will because he's too fucking lazy to make things right himself.

you got it backwards! He gave us free will cause he knew we'd be too lazy to do the right thing so we'd have to try harder.

i understand what you say, but it's just as easily the exact opposite or of course, something none have ever thought of.

Moonduck · 08-16-2003, 09:32 PM

"My arguments were merely a sort of reductio ad absurdum type argument."

In that light, I can see why you chose the examples you did.

You mention fate, I ask what about inevitability. If you posit that any set future, regardless of what happens between now and then invalidates free will, would not the theoretically assured destruction of our planet by the Sun eventually 'dying' be a set and determined future? Does the sun's eventual failure invalidate free will? If you posit that we will move beyond this rock to colonize others before that point happenes, I ask if the eventual heat death of the universe then invalidate free will?

This is, to an extent, my own reductio ad absurdum, but it is valid. Simply because an event is set and unavoidable it does not follow that free will does not exist. We still make our choices, we still have free will within our own scope. Whtether or not our free will matters on the cosmic scale is only important in arguments such as this.

CSflim · 08-16-2003, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moonduck
"My arguments were merely a sort of reductio ad absurdum type argument."

In that light, I can see why you chose the examples you did.

You mention fate, I ask what about inevitability. If you posit that any set future, regardless of what happens between now and then invalidates free will, would not the theoretically assured destruction of our planet by the Sun eventually 'dying' be a set and determined future? Does the sun's eventual failure invalidate free will? If you posit that we will move beyond this rock to colonize others before that point happenes, I ask if the eventual heat death of the universe then invalidate free will?

This is, to an extent, my own reductio ad absurdum, but it is valid. Simply because an event is set and unavoidable it does not follow that free will does not exist. We still make our choices, we still have free will within our own scope. Whtether or not our free will matters on the cosmic scale is only important in arguments such as this.

That is because these things are outside of our control, and nothing to do with free will.
I think it was assumed that the "prediction" involved was somehtign regarding human actions.

CSflim · 08-17-2003, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MacGnG
Maybe He doesn't want to. i'm sure his job is much harder than any of ours will ever be. Who said He was supposed to do anything? HE didn't; I think thats where mans' ideas come into play. I'm not saying He doesnt do any thing, i'm just saying it's just as likely that he doesn't do a specific thing, or that he does it differently.

WOW! You are REALLY reaching now! "Maybe He doesn't want to" - You either know something....or you don't. You don't choose to know it or not.
Ok. Lets just say...This is God, he can do whatever the Hell he likes. He can choose not to know. Well that makes no difference. If our actions are knowable to God, then it invalidates free will, whether or not God actually "chooses" to know them.

Jdoe · 08-17-2003, 02:11 AM

Why are most people arguing that omniscience must equal control.

If I see a pitcher throw a ball I'm pretty sure it's going to go somewhere. That doesn't mean I made it do that. I would not think that knowing has to mean controlling.

Jdoe

CSflim · 08-17-2003, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jdoe
Why are most people arguing that omniscience must equal control.

If I see a pitcher throw a ball I'm pretty sure it's going to go somewhere. That doesn't mean I made it do that. I would not think that knowing has to mean controlling.

Jdoe

You miss the entire point of the argument. How can you claim to be excercising Free Will, if all of your actions have been determined since the dawn of time?

Jdoe · 08-17-2003, 10:40 AM

I can't buy the argument that if God is all-knowing then all he knows is something he directly causes. He can know of something without causing it to be.

But I have a feeling we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Jdoe

MacGnG · 08-17-2003, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CSflim
You don't choose to know it or not.

thats what free will is

Moonduck · 08-17-2003, 10:04 PM

"That is because these things are outside of our control, and nothing to do with free will. I think it was assumed that the "prediction" involved was somehtign regarding human actions."

Hmm, again, I say it is an issue of scale. Our hypothetical being sees a vision of the future. The results of every action taken by every human on the planet for the next 40 years bring about the future 40 years from now. It is as beyond our (meaning us as individauls) control as the heat death of the universe. If we are influencial, we may exert some minor pull, but in the end, we are not that meaningful.

sub zero · 08-17-2003, 11:10 PM

Here's how I explain free will.

You're watching a recording of a burglary. You see every action they take. You've seen this tape several times, so you already know how it ends. The burglars, on the other hand, didn't know exactly how everything was going to pan out when they started robbing the place. They had free will to make decisions as they saw fit.

This explains free will.

In this scene, you played god. Just because you watched the tape doesn't mean you made any decisions for them, and it doesn't mean that what they did was predestined. When they were making their decisions, it was 'free will'.

God already saw your recording, but, as far as you know, you're still making the videotape. You're still having free will and doing what you want. To understand this, you have to accept the fact that 'GOD' is something that exists on every plain, in every moment of space and time, past and future.

“But what if I don’t believe in god?”

Then what are you doing worrying about free will in the first place?

prosequence · 08-18-2003, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Dude
If somebody could see the future, wouldnt that negate the concept of free will?

I've had this arguement with religious friends of mine and they think that people are still free to decide their future.

I dont understand this reasoning at all. If anyone (including god and prophets) know what's gonna happen to someone at a certain time/certain date, where is the free will?

Free will is a set of choices, in my mind when people make predictions, they are giving you a possiblity of an outcome. This doesn't mean you can't change the path you travel by making different decisions.
This thread isn't just about God and free will, it's about free will in general.

So, will YOU take part in FREE WILL and respond to this thread?

MacGnG · 08-18-2003, 05:09 PM

what i dont understand is why you WOULDN'T want free will. thats saying that you never have a choice ever, who wants that? why would u not want to have a choice?

CSflim · 08-19-2003, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MacGnG
what i dont understand is why you WOULDN'T want free will. thats saying that you never have a choice ever, who wants that? why would u not want to have a choice?

Unfortunately that's not how the world works!
I may want to be immortal, or I may want to be filthy rich...doesn't make it so.

MacGnG · 08-22-2003, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CSflim
Unfortunately that's not how the world works!
I may want to be immortal, or I may want to be filthy rich...doesn't make it so.

so u are just going to default on the idea of choice. ok, fine. u can do that but i think thats a horrible existence.

i'd much rather hope i have a choice than forfeit the entire concept.
------more---questions------
did you choose not to accept that you have freewill? .... or did someone do that for you?

Midnight_Son · 08-22-2003, 01:21 PM

For the sake of argument let's assume that there is a god, the Bible is his word, and his stories of rapture and the Second Coming are all truth. If we assume this to be true it would mean that we are living in Pre-Destiny. God knows all too well that these terrible events are going to happen. He knew about it from the beginning of time. So, for the last 2000 years we have all just been actors in his play. All the murders, the rape, the disease, the pain, the sorrow, the hate, wars, acts of terrorism, the genocide have all be part of his great plan. And our lives, good or bad, have all been planned out for us.
Every thought I’ve ever had, every action I have ever taken, every emotion I have ever felt has been part of god's Divine Plan. When I was created (in his image none-the-less) he made me an atheist. He has made me write this paper dedicated to pointing out cracks in the divine plan. It seems wonderful to think that god has decided that in my later years I would live a happy fulfilling life with two beautiful children and a woman that I love dearly, but will I really feel those things? And does it matter either way? Essentially I am just a robot, a cog in the machine that is the Earth.

Consider the murderers and rapists of the world. They are all included in God's Divine Plan as well. He placed them on earth just to make other people's lives miserable. Why would a loving god do such a thing? Why would he put into being, a predestine act so atrocious? For what purpose would it serve? If we are all predestine, then we cannot blame the rapist or the murderer for "they know not what they do." Everyone is following the Ultimate Screenplay written and directed by the big Steven Spielberg in the sky.

Praying to him every night does nothing, because he already has it all figured out. In fact, he knew what we were going to be doing today 2000 years ago (if not a couple Billion years ago). What makes you think that by praying every night, and going to church every Sunday is going to change?
We don't have the capacity for freewill, so why should we be accountable to for anything? Why try to live a Christian lifestyle when god has already determined who is going to heaven and who is going to hell?
If, in fact, we are predestine by god's hand then we cannot go against him anyway. I can write and write and try to convince people that what they’ve had stuffed down their throat since early childhood may not in fact be correct. And reject Christianity, as a damaging lifestyle, but none of it will make any difference. God programmed you to believe what you will and disregard everything else. you have no choice in the matter.

Predestine life, regardless if it is one of "success" or "failure", has no meaning. There can be no real happiness, love, hate, emotion, or feeling. Humans, and non-human animals, all become bits of machinery in Gods little movie we call Life. The concept of pre-destiny might seem like a lovely one at first thought, but when you really inspect if you can clearly see the negative aspects outweigh the "good" ones by a-million-to-one.

CSflim · 08-22-2003, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MacGnG
so u are just going to default on the idea of choice. ok, fine. u can do that but i think thats a horrible existence.
'd much rather hope i have a choice than forfeit the entire concept.

First of all am I not defaulting on anything. I have laid out my argument against "Free Will" in this thread. I am not just assuming.

Second of all, I'm not interested in what makes me comfortable. i am interested in waht is.

Quote:

------more---questions------
did you choose not to accept that you have freewill? .... or did someone do that for you?

Like I said, when going against free will, I am really going against the idea of "magic", be it in the form of a God, a soul or an immaterial eidos.

I do make choices, and nothing forces me to make them, so in that sense, I guess there is no denying that I have free will.

I could use a computer as a metaphor for our brain. It makes choices, but there is nothing "magical" about its opperation.

(Having said that, I think it's important to realise that I am only using a computer as a metaphor, not something that is strictly analogous. I believe that there are fundamental differences between the workings of our brain and a computer)

docbungle · 08-22-2003, 04:42 PM

Of course we have free will. We can do whatever we want. How can there be any question? I am in control of my own life and every decision I make is my own decision, not that of a "higher power". Real life is not The Matrix.

We can't see the future, so I can't answer that part of the question.

CSflim · 08-23-2003, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by docbungle
Of course we have free will. We can do whatever we want. How can there be any question? I am in control of my own life and every decision I make is my own decision, not that of a "higher power". Real life is not The Matrix.

We can't see the future, so I can't answer that part of the question.

Prove it.
Exercise free will.
Tel you what, I am going to order you to do something, and you will either do it (A), or not do it (B).

Touch your nose with your finger
.
.
.
Did you do it? More importantly did you exercise free will when you did it? How can you prove to me that your decison to do A or B, was nothing more than a rather elaborate case of stimulus: response?
You certainly percieve your free will, but how can you prove that it is genuine.
Lets try again, this time try to REALLY force your free will. Try to defy your stimulus:response impulse. Ready...
Place the palm of your hand on your forehead.
.
.
.
Did you do it? Did you exercise free will that time?

docbungle · 08-23-2003, 01:49 PM

CSFilm, you, of course, are asking for PROOF of something that can not be proven. That is an easy thing to do: ask for proof that you know cannot be supplied. Knowing that, why are you asking? To be sarcastic? What?

I can run around and act like a rooster or I can shit on my carpet or I can wear shoes that don't match each other or I can quit my job. I have the freedom of choice to do any of those things. And, yes, it is possible for me to consider the consequences of my actions before I do those things and make a decision based on that. Because I have freedom of thought, also. I had the freedom to smirk at your last post because I thought it was condescending and childish and not very witty but a little arrogant, as if YOU have some sort of hidden proof you are keeping from the rest of us.

That is as close as anyone can come to proving they have the freedom of coice: by actually making a choice. We all do it every day.

Sit around all day and wait for something to make all of your choices for you. *spoiler alert* You will sit all day and nothing will make your choices for you.

By saying the choices we make are not actually our choices at all, but predetermined, is just as unproveable. It is an interesting theory that does not have enough backbone for me to buy into.

*sidenote* Bringing God into a discussion like this is like bringing abortion up at a tupperware party. IF there is a God, how can anyone be pompous enough to believe they can actually comprehend anything he has done or will do? IF He/it exists, that would mean He is our creator, hence, we are probably not quite on the same intellectual level as He is, if you know what I mean, hence have no idea what we are talking about, as He could change anything whenever He wanted to. I am NOT arguing for the exsitence of God, but since people keep bringing it up, those are my thoughts.

CSflim · 08-23-2003, 01:56 PM

docbungle appologies, I didn't mean to appear condescending, I was merely illustrating the flaw in your arguement by stating so matter-of-factly "Of course we have free will", as if there was nothing to discuss.

I was showing, how a magical "free will" could very easily be replaced by an elaborate stimulus-respose system, i.e. our brain.

I have shown, that unless you are willing to acept that the physical action of our brains does not follow the laws of physics, then you cannot have your magical free will.

If you read some of my above posts, then you may understand my position more clearly. I do not believe that we are mere puppets, being controlled by something/someone else.

CSflim · 08-23-2003, 02:33 PM

Some scientific evidence to back up my opinion on free will.

Quote:

I wish, next, to describe two experiments (described in Harth 1982) that have been performed on human subjects, and which appear to have rather remarkable implications for our considerations here. These have to do with the time that consciousness takes to act and to be enacted. The first of these is concerned with the active role of consciousness, and the second, its passive role. Taken together, the implications are even more striking.
The first was performed by H. H. Kornhuber and associates in Germany in 1976. (Deeke, Grötzinger, and Kornhuber 1976.) A number of human subjects volunteered to have electrical signals recorded at a point on their heads (electroencephalograms, i.e. EEGS), and they were asked to flex the index finger of their right hands suddenly at various times entirely of their own choosing. The idea is that the EEG recordings would indicate something of the mental activity that is taking place within the skull, and which is involved in the actual conscious decision to flex the finger.
What is found is remarkable, namely that there is a gradual build-up of recorded electric potential for a full second, or perhaps even up to a second and a half, before the finger is actually flexed. This seems to indicate that the conscious decision process takes over a second in order to act! This may be contrasted with the much shorter time. that it takes to respond to an external signal if the mode of response has been laid down beforehand. For example, instead of it being 'freely willed', the finger flexing might be in response to the flash of a light signal. In that case a reaction time of about one-fifth of a second is normal, which is about five times faster than the 'willed' action that is tested in Kornhuber's data.

-Roger Penrose

The second experiment, despite being fascinating, is not really of huge relevance to our discussion here.

What is interesting about this experiment is that there appears to be a discrepancy about what we 'perceive' and what 'is'. We perceive ourselves only to have decided, a split second ago to flex our mussel. But according to the EEG, our brain has decided to flex the finger up to second and a half before then! It seems that our perception is lying to us!
Also bear in mind that the EEG is not simply registering the person thinking about flexing their finger. As in: "I'm going to flex my finger in 5...4...3...2...1...NOW". The subjects perceived themselves as making sudden split-second decisions.
This raises some very serious concerns about the concept of Free Will. Since our perception of our free will is our only evidence that we have free will, when that perception is shown to be deceptive, you cannot help but wonder. What if I am nothing but a passive 'observer'? I might perceive making a choice, but how do I know that perception is truthful?

One thing that was not mentioned above was, what happens when we mix both internal 'Free Will' with external responses?

Consider the same set up above, with the person receiving an EEG, and being asked to flex his finger suddenly, at random times. But there is an added constraint. He is told not to flex his finger while a little light indicator is switched on.
We now connect the light to the EEG, in such a way that it will occasionally light up when it detects that the subject is about to flex his finger. What will we observe? More importantly what will the subject perceive?
What we will observe is this:
We will start to observe the tell-tale signs that the subject is about to flex his finger.
The light will switch on.
A fifth of a second later, the tell-tale signs will begin to fade away.
The light will switch off.
It appears that an external stimulus can "over-ride" our internal free will.
What does the subject perceive? Well nothing actually, he sees a bulb light up, and go off again. As far as he is concerned, he had no intention of flexing his finger (after all, he would only become aware of this decision a second later!)

tehblaed · 08-23-2003, 09:38 PM

A quick response to Cnor's post:

I just got this great visual of all the soccer moms in "GOD BLESS AMERICA (NEVER FORGET 9/11) *YELLOW RIBBON AROUND THE 'TWIN TOWERS'*" t-shirts. Then I got this visual of a tshirt with the NY world trade center buildings on fire, with big text - "GOD'S PLAN. HE HAS A DARK SENSE OF HUMOR I GUESS."

Sorry, yeah, dark and insensitive. I know. Doesn't change the fact it's hilarious.

MacGnG · 08-23-2003, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CSflim
I am really going against the idea of "magic"

ok i understand your perspective on it now.

as for this experiment it is very interesting. something to try but kinda O/T: when you are in bed, before you are ready to sleep but still sleepy, lie still and dont move your hand. then try no to move it, and then just move it really suddenly. you can actually confuse yourself to not move your hand when you really want to but when u are actually trying not to move it, it does.

anyway, so you are suggesting that free will is simply perceived because it looks like we have it, but only looks like we have free will we dont actually have it.

hmm i dont know what to say, if thats so then at least we have a choice to accept it or blindly disregard it. i dunno.

but as lotsa things in life it is unprovable (dunno if thats the right word but yea)

trudes1131 · 09-05-2003, 10:25 AM

Free will is what surrounds you on a continual basis. It is what poses a choice between standing or sitting, loving or leaving and coming and going.

When you think about it, with each action comes a change in the course of your life. By walking on one side of the road instead of the other, you may arrive at your destination a half second earlier. That half second can make all the difference in the world. Such as presenting someone/something to you that you would have otherwise missed had you arrived that half second later.

It's funny what a low emphasis we place on small amounts of time such as these, given that they pose just as large an emphasis on the direction of our lives as extended ones we believe to do the same.

It's kind of funny when you think about it, really. Just by reading this post you have completely changed your life. You could have passed on it, decided to leave the house and arrived to be the sole witness in a massive car wreck just outside your door. Instead, you're here, wondering what kind of accident it would have been.

It truly amazes me what a complicated fixture this game of life can be sometimes.

08-15-2003, 03:14 PM	#47 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	There is no such thing as FREE WILL, it comes at a cost. __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

08-16-2003, 02:53 AM	#49 (permalink)
tiberry Insane Location: Location, Location!	What about the possibility that everything happens at the same moment? What if we stop thinking of time as linear, but as a single point; for that matter disregard time all together as time is only an illusion in the first place. Doesn't that make the argument easier? This way there isn't a 'future', and therefore nothing to predict. It all happens at once, we just don't perceive it that way (yet)... __________________ My life's work is to bridge the gap between that which is perceived by the mind and that which is quantifiable by words and numbers.

08-16-2003, 05:56 AM	#51 (permalink)
John Henry Addict Location: Grey Britain	Relativity considers time to be a dimension exactly like the spatial ones, but which we percieve differently, so that our present is just a spatial cross section on our temporal axis. I can see my feet now, even though they have different spatial coordinates to my head. I am wearing socks, but at another point on my time axis, I am not. If, as is overwhelmingly likely, we exist in more dimensions than we percieve, I think that the fifth dimension would act as a meta-time, which would contain different projections of our other axes at different points of its own. Thus someone could see into the future as it stood, but the future could be changed by free-will. Perhaps a simpler analogy is this: You are standing on one street (The present) looking down another that runs off it at right angles (the future), keep sidestepping (free will) and you are looking down another street (another future). I think there might be a solution to the grandfather paradox in this multiple temporal axes notion, but I'm too stupid and lazy to work it out. __________________ "No one was behaving from very Buddhist motives. Then, thought Pigsy, he was hardly a Buddha, nor was he a monkey. Presently, he was a pig spirit changed into a little girl pretending to be a little boy to be offered to a water monster. It was all very simple to a pig spirit."

08-16-2003, 12:00 PM	#53 (permalink)
Keg-o-Grog Insane Location: Foregin student in Texas atm.	we dont have completly free will either, what we chose is based on our personality. so we end up taking some stands as a human, and like other things and do other things than other humans, we're all different, and original, and intelectual. some choises are just too diverse, too different for your personality, you just wouldnt chose them. ofcorse you have the possibility to do just what you like, but that doesnt mean you will chose it. so, i believe, there is no true and absolute free will, but only free will within the boundries of your own personality. __________________ I stand alone without beliefs, the only truth i know is you.

08-16-2003, 06:17 PM	#54 (permalink)
MacGnG Know Where!	please explain why you wouldnt want free will? edit: as for the article sixate posted: God, by definition can do and choose whatever he wants, so choosing to give us free will by not seeing our thoughts makes complete sense and in no way contradicts anything. Last edited by MacGnG; 08-16-2003 at 06:24 PM..

08-13-2003, 07:01 PM	#41 (permalink)
MuadDib Psycho	One possible solution to this dilemma is in a kinda Frank Herbert way of looking at it. Not that prophets (or gods) can see the future precisely, rather they can see all possible futures and also, through knowledge of the present, see which paths are unfolding and most likely. Also the very ability to see the future would shape it in a way as well. Just one way to look at it.

08-14-2003, 06:54 PM	#43 (permalink)
Moonduck Junkie Location: SE USA	CSflim, I'm not sure I follow you. Admittedly, I've not read closely, but I keep seeing you bring up random things like radioactive decay and dice rolling and asking if this is free will. What is the point of auch a line of questioning? Perhaps it is best if you set about your definition of free will, that way we can see what objective criteria you are using to either accept or deny its' existence. I am not asking this as a challenge, but as a legitimate question. We've argued free will quite a bit, but I am not certain anyone has taken the time to define what it is we are speaking of. To counter the questions that I saw you ask: 1) Computer program - Yes, it 'makes choices', but those choices are based on pre-set instructions. Given the same set of inputs, a computer program will make the same precise choice again and again. It must do so because it is ruled by a set of algorithms that determine its' choices. It is also not sentient. I think I am fairly safe in positing that sentience is necessary for free will. 2) Rolling the dice - Certainly not free will. The die does not make any decision whatsoever. While it may not act the same in every given situation, there is neither reasoning behind its' acts nor sentience with which to decide what act to take. 3) Radioactive decay - see #2 for refutations of insensate objects lacking the facilities for free will. -- Taking the argument in a slightly different direction, let's assume that our hypothetical being sees THE future. Not A future, not one of many possible futures, but THE future. What is to say that there are not many paths to reach said future? If our being sees a world devastated by war, are there not multiple ways to which we could reach that point? Again, just because a future is perceived it does not mean that the choices taken to reach said future are necessarily predetermined.

08-16-2003, 12:16 AM	#48 (permalink)
MacGnG Know Where!	CSflim: it wasnt directed at you. i was trying to get everyone's input. but i get your point, the car engine got the idea across. now i understand where u come from, i dont agree but i understand the other side of the coin now

08-16-2003, 09:32 PM	#57 (permalink)
Moonduck Junkie Location: SE USA	"My arguments were merely a sort of reductio ad absurdum type argument." In that light, I can see why you chose the examples you did. You mention fate, I ask what about inevitability. If you posit that any set future, regardless of what happens between now and then invalidates free will, would not the theoretically assured destruction of our planet by the Sun eventually 'dying' be a set and determined future? Does the sun's eventual failure invalidate free will? If you posit that we will move beyond this rock to colonize others before that point happenes, I ask if the eventual heat death of the universe then invalidate free will? This is, to an extent, my own reductio ad absurdum, but it is valid. Simply because an event is set and unavoidable it does not follow that free will does not exist. We still make our choices, we still have free will within our own scope. Whtether or not our free will matters on the cosmic scale is only important in arguments such as this.

08-17-2003, 02:11 AM	#60 (permalink)
Jdoe Crazy	Why are most people arguing that omniscience must equal control. If I see a pitcher throw a ball I'm pretty sure it's going to go somewhere. That doesn't mean I made it do that. I would not think that knowing has to mean controlling. Jdoe

08-17-2003, 10:40 AM	#62 (permalink)
Jdoe Crazy	I can't buy the argument that if God is all-knowing then all he knows is something he directly causes. He can know of something without causing it to be. But I have a feeling we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. Jdoe

08-17-2003, 10:04 PM	#64 (permalink)
Moonduck Junkie Location: SE USA	"That is because these things are outside of our control, and nothing to do with free will. I think it was assumed that the "prediction" involved was somehtign regarding human actions." Hmm, again, I say it is an issue of scale. Our hypothetical being sees a vision of the future. The results of every action taken by every human on the planet for the next 40 years bring about the future 40 years from now. It is as beyond our (meaning us as individauls) control as the heat death of the universe. If we are influencial, we may exert some minor pull, but in the end, we are not that meaningful.

08-17-2003, 11:10 PM	#65 (permalink)
sub zero Addict Location: The one state that doesn't have black outs: TEXAS BABY!!!	Here's how I explain free will. You're watching a recording of a burglary. You see every action they take. You've seen this tape several times, so you already know how it ends. The burglars, on the other hand, didn't know exactly how everything was going to pan out when they started robbing the place. They had free will to make decisions as they saw fit. This explains free will. In this scene, you played god. Just because you watched the tape doesn't mean you made any decisions for them, and it doesn't mean that what they did was predestined. When they were making their decisions, it was 'free will'. God already saw your recording, but, as far as you know, you're still making the videotape. You're still having free will and doing what you want. To understand this, you have to accept the fact that 'GOD' is something that exists on every plain, in every moment of space and time, past and future. “But what if I don’t believe in god?” Then what are you doing worrying about free will in the first place? __________________ Did you Google it yet? Join the TFP Typing team!!

08-18-2003, 05:09 PM	#67 (permalink)
MacGnG Know Where!	what i dont understand is why you WOULDN'T want free will. thats saying that you never have a choice ever, who wants that? why would u not want to have a choice?

08-22-2003, 01:21 PM	#70 (permalink)
Midnight_Son The Cover Doesn't Match The Book Location: in a van down by the river	For the sake of argument let's assume that there is a god, the Bible is his word, and his stories of rapture and the Second Coming are all truth. If we assume this to be true it would mean that we are living in Pre-Destiny. God knows all too well that these terrible events are going to happen. He knew about it from the beginning of time. So, for the last 2000 years we have all just been actors in his play. All the murders, the rape, the disease, the pain, the sorrow, the hate, wars, acts of terrorism, the genocide have all be part of his great plan. And our lives, good or bad, have all been planned out for us. Every thought I’ve ever had, every action I have ever taken, every emotion I have ever felt has been part of god's Divine Plan. When I was created (in his image none-the-less) he made me an atheist. He has made me write this paper dedicated to pointing out cracks in the divine plan. It seems wonderful to think that god has decided that in my later years I would live a happy fulfilling life with two beautiful children and a woman that I love dearly, but will I really feel those things? And does it matter either way? Essentially I am just a robot, a cog in the machine that is the Earth. Consider the murderers and rapists of the world. They are all included in God's Divine Plan as well. He placed them on earth just to make other people's lives miserable. Why would a loving god do such a thing? Why would he put into being, a predestine act so atrocious? For what purpose would it serve? If we are all predestine, then we cannot blame the rapist or the murderer for "they know not what they do." Everyone is following the Ultimate Screenplay written and directed by the big Steven Spielberg in the sky. Praying to him every night does nothing, because he already has it all figured out. In fact, he knew what we were going to be doing today 2000 years ago (if not a couple Billion years ago). What makes you think that by praying every night, and going to church every Sunday is going to change? We don't have the capacity for freewill, so why should we be accountable to for anything? Why try to live a Christian lifestyle when god has already determined who is going to heaven and who is going to hell? If, in fact, we are predestine by god's hand then we cannot go against him anyway. I can write and write and try to convince people that what they’ve had stuffed down their throat since early childhood may not in fact be correct. And reject Christianity, as a damaging lifestyle, but none of it will make any difference. God programmed you to believe what you will and disregard everything else. you have no choice in the matter. Predestine life, regardless if it is one of "success" or "failure", has no meaning. There can be no real happiness, love, hate, emotion, or feeling. Humans, and non-human animals, all become bits of machinery in Gods little movie we call Life. The concept of pre-destiny might seem like a lovely one at first thought, but when you really inspect if you can clearly see the negative aspects outweigh the "good" ones by a-million-to-one. __________________ SWM, tattooed, seeks meaningful tits and beer. Enjoys biker mags, pornography, and Sunday morning walks to the liquor store. Winners of erotic hot dog eating contests given priority.

08-22-2003, 04:42 PM	#72 (permalink)
docbungle It's all downhill from here Location: Denver	Of course we have free will. We can do whatever we want. How can there be any question? I am in control of my own life and every decision I make is my own decision, not that of a "higher power". Real life is not The Matrix. We can't see the future, so I can't answer that part of the question. __________________ Bad Luck City

08-23-2003, 01:49 PM	#74 (permalink)
docbungle It's all downhill from here Location: Denver	CSFilm, you, of course, are asking for PROOF of something that can not be proven. That is an easy thing to do: ask for proof that you know cannot be supplied. Knowing that, why are you asking? To be sarcastic? What? I can run around and act like a rooster or I can shit on my carpet or I can wear shoes that don't match each other or I can quit my job. I have the freedom of choice to do any of those things. And, yes, it is possible for me to consider the consequences of my actions before I do those things and make a decision based on that. Because I have freedom of thought, also. I had the freedom to smirk at your last post because I thought it was condescending and childish and not very witty but a little arrogant, as if YOU have some sort of hidden proof you are keeping from the rest of us. That is as close as anyone can come to proving they have the freedom of coice: by actually making a choice. We all do it every day. Sit around all day and wait for something to make all of your choices for you. spoiler alert You will sit all day and nothing will make your choices for you. By saying the choices we make are not actually our choices at all, but predetermined, is just as unproveable. It is an interesting theory that does not have enough backbone for me to buy into. sidenote Bringing God into a discussion like this is like bringing abortion up at a tupperware party. IF there is a God, how can anyone be pompous enough to believe they can actually comprehend anything he has done or will do? IF He/it exists, that would mean He is our creator, hence, we are probably not quite on the same intellectual level as He is, if you know what I mean, hence have no idea what we are talking about, as He could change anything whenever He wanted to. I am NOT arguing for the exsitence of God, but since people keep bringing it up, those are my thoughts. __________________ Bad Luck City Last edited by docbungle; 08-23-2003 at 01:52 PM..

08-23-2003, 01:56 PM	#75 (permalink)
CSflim Sky Piercer Location: Ireland	docbungle appologies, I didn't mean to appear condescending, I was merely illustrating the flaw in your arguement by stating so matter-of-factly "Of course we have free will", as if there was nothing to discuss. I was showing, how a magical "free will" could very easily be replaced by an elaborate stimulus-respose system, i.e. our brain. I have shown, that unless you are willing to acept that the physical action of our brains does not follow the laws of physics, then you cannot have your magical free will. If you read some of my above posts, then you may understand my position more clearly. I do not believe that we are mere puppets, being controlled by something/someone else. __________________ Last edited by CSflim; 08-23-2003 at 02:32 PM..

08-23-2003, 09:38 PM	#77 (permalink)
tehblaed Insane Location: land of the merry	A quick response to Cnor's post: I just got this great visual of all the soccer moms in "GOD BLESS AMERICA (NEVER FORGET 9/11) YELLOW RIBBON AROUND THE 'TWIN TOWERS'" t-shirts. Then I got this visual of a tshirt with the NY world trade center buildings on fire, with big text - "GOD'S PLAN. HE HAS A DARK SENSE OF HUMOR I GUESS." Sorry, yeah, dark and insensitive. I know. Doesn't change the fact it's hilarious.

09-05-2003, 10:25 AM	#79 (permalink)
trudes1131 Upright	Free will is what surrounds you on a continual basis. It is what poses a choice between standing or sitting, loving or leaving and coming and going. When you think about it, with each action comes a change in the course of your life. By walking on one side of the road instead of the other, you may arrive at your destination a half second earlier. That half second can make all the difference in the world. Such as presenting someone/something to you that you would have otherwise missed had you arrived that half second later. It's funny what a low emphasis we place on small amounts of time such as these, given that they pose just as large an emphasis on the direction of our lives as extended ones we believe to do the same. It's kind of funny when you think about it, really. Just by reading this post you have completely changed your life. You could have passed on it, decided to leave the house and arrived to be the sole witness in a massive car wreck just outside your door. Instead, you're here, wondering what kind of accident it would have been. It truly amazes me what a complicated fixture this game of life can be sometimes. Last edited by trudes1131; 09-05-2003 at 10:28 AM..