lurkette

Since this appears to be not just Tilted Philosophy but also Tilted Religion, I wonder if there's someone out there who could answer some questions about the difference between Satan, Beelzebub and Lucifer? They seem to be used interchangably but I recall that they are actually different entities in the Bible. And I seem to remember that Lucifer means "lightbringer" and was originally a Promethean character?

Also, where is the story of Lilith, Adam's first wife, told?

Thanks!

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Pellaz

Lilith's story is in the Midrash, I *think*

Bealzebub was the Lord of the Flies, for certain

Lucifer led the revolt against God in heaven, and satan is the name given to the advesary of god iirc

__________________
" ' Big Mouth.
Remember it took three of you to kill me.
A god, a boy, and, last and least, a hero.' "

Pellaz

Of course, I hit submit, and I immediatly see one of the books that I couldn't find

Pre-exile, God was resposible for all, both good and evil. Satan refered to a different aspect of a singular being and was rarely mentioned. Post exile, God became the embodiment of Good, and Satan became the embodiment of Evil.

illustrating the change:
2 Sam 24:1 (10c-7c BCE)
Once again the Issraelites felt the Lord's anger, when he incited David against them and gave him orders that Israel and Judah should be counted.

1 Chron 21:1 (4c BCE)
Now Satan, setting himself against Israel, incited David to count the people.

I was mistaken about Lucifer, also. His only mention in the bible comes in Isaiah 14:12, and his very name is a mistranslation of "Day star, son of the Dawn" and was most likely a reference to a babylonian king. Lucifer the angel was integrated into the doctrine of the fall, and was thus immortalized.

Don't have any more info on Bealzubub, sadly.

There is also an interesting text outlining the doctrine of the fall, and the host of angels, although I can't recall the name or the author atm. If I think of it soon, I'll pm it to you or post here yet again. Hoped this helped some.

__________________
" ' Big Mouth.
Remember it took three of you to kill me.
A god, a boy, and, last and least, a hero.' "

ishkeb

Lucifer, as stated above, means "light bringer" or "day star" in Latin, which means that it was translated incorrectly later and I THINK that it originally referred to any angel. Beezlebub is a demon, lower than Satan on the hierarchy of demons. I have a book called "Frequently Asked Questions About the Bible" or something like that that answers both of these questions, but I can't find it right now, so this is all from memory.

human

Lillith isn't, as far as I know (which basically means it's not given more than a couple of lines) in the Christian bible. Stories about her can likely be found in some of the texts central to Judaism. If it's not there, then it might be a more modern creation. (modern defined as last 15 centuries or so ... )

I don't have a copy of those texts handy, anyone out there with more knowledge care to handle this one?

Pellaz

Found out for certain on Lilith this morning, she's found in the alphabet of Ben Sirah, written around 7c CE.

__________________
" ' Big Mouth.
Remember it took three of you to kill me.
A god, a boy, and, last and least, a hero.' "

twotimesadingo

Not quite correct, Human...

Isaiah 34:14f
Wildcats shall meet with hyenas,
goat-demons shall call to each other;
there too Lilith shall repose,
and find a place to rest.
There shall the owl nest
and lay and hatch and brood in its shadow

Of course, whether or not the Lilith mentioned in Isaiah is indeed Adam's first wife and Cain's guide is certainly open to debate.

__________________
I'll be the one to protect you from your enemies and all your demons.
I'll be the one to protect you from a will to survive and voice of reason.
I'll be the one to protect you from your enemies and your choices, son.
They're one and the same I must isolate you, isolate and save you from yourself."
- A Perfect Circle

feloniouspunk

From a strictly anthropological point of view (that is, relying on evidence from various historical texts and an understanding of other religions in the region without using the Bible as anytthing more than another reference), here's my knowledge on the subject.

Satan: Originally Shai'tan, this was an ancient Babylonian/Canaanite god. Just one of many from the region. An enemy of Jehovah (thought to originally be the tribal sky god of the Jews) and the Jews.

Beezlebub: Just another local enemy deity. They were eventually lumped all together with the story of the fallen angel, Lucifer.

Lucifer: Called the Morningstar, he was chief among the angels. Lead revolt. Depending on who you ask, this was evil or admirable. Not so different from the American Revolution really. Indepence, representitive government and all that.

A fun look at this story is Kevin Smith's Dogma.

As far as I'm concerned, its all mythology. Easy enough to track and learn about using anthropology.

Pellaz

I was unable to find this passage in any of the translations available to me atm, could you please elaborate on which version this came from? Am quite interested to check it out.

__________________
" ' Big Mouth.
Remember it took three of you to kill me.
A god, a boy, and, last and least, a hero.' "