giblfiz

and I suppose for the agnostics as well, but its a pretty easy one for them.

What would it take to make you believe? (to make the question a little more interesting... what would it take to make you believe at the very bare minimum?)

would getting an email from god work?
what about a phone call?
a burning bush starts talking to you?
What about if a 10 ft man with a flowing white beard, white robes and a divine aura appeared in front of you and claimed to be god?

Most of my friends are atheists and I get a lot of interesting answers. Some of them say they could never be convinced, if things got freaky enough they would just assume that they got slipped some mushrooms or something, others say they would just need to hear a voice in there head, but the answers always seem to be interesting.

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Use the star one and you'll be fighting off the old ones with your bare hands
-A Shoggoth on the Roof

tisonlyi

Conclusive, objective proof... Or enough subjective experience to radically alter my view of things organically.

If any or all of your suggestions happened to me, i'd consult my nearest physician. After putting myself in a straight jacket and hiding all the pointy objects.

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"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Fake Alias

Now much would be able to alter my beliefs because I have read a lot about science and religeon and feel strongly about my beliefs. I do not think people need a god to live their life. Going along the same lines as tisonlyi, the only way I would change my beliefs is if there was proof that god existed. Or when I die, finding out I was wrong my entire life. Now that would be difficult to deal with. However I try not to think about this stuff too much. Just live life and have fun!

Mojo_PeiPei

I'll be smirking like a bastard when all you unbelievers die and realize that there is a higher power. Not on the grounds that your damned or anything, just more on the notion that you so fervently oppose the thought that something greater then us created this massive and virtually unknown universe.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

lafemmefatale

There'd have to be some pretty amazing visual stunts on God's part to get me to believe. Just people claiming things is not going to break the skepticism out of me. Having said that, there are incredible acts out there; and not burning bushes or statues crying blood and whatnot, but altruistic, heart warming acts of kindness...those are the things that would convince me, if i see enough of it that is. Or if the big guy himself paid a personal visit to me including gratuitous use of pyrotechnics and felt compelled to share with me some of the answers to the questions of the universe...that may work as well.

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-poor is the man whose pleasure depends on the permission of another-

orbital

Nothing is absolutely certain, save perhaps basic axioms and definitions. Thus, an atheist is always entitled to rejecting the hypothesis that the cause of some miraculous anomaly is divine in nature.

We should, however, form our beliefs rationally. Suppose you have a friend whom you've asked, over the telephone, to borrow $500 from. He agreed, and four days later an envelope containing $500 in cash arrived in your mail. You know that your friend is a reliable and altruistic person. Now, which explanation of the cash is more reasonable to believe- that your friend has, acceding to your request, mailed you the $500, or that the cash originated from someone else and has ended up, after a spectacular flurry of stochastic events, in your letterbox?

If, after encountering a miraculous (scientifically unfathomable) anomaly that is characteristic of God to manifest, an atheist investigates and discovers no trickery or mental instability at work, which of the following explanations of the anomaly is more reasonable for the atheist to believe in- that God has created a miracle, or that the anomaly had spontaneously and randomly occurred?

It is worth noting again that because few things or nothing can be known for certain, the abovementioned atheist is entitled to persist in a blind denial of God. The rest of us, I hope, will opt to subscribe to a belief that, although cannot be proven beyond all doubt, is more reasonable to believe in.

wilywampa

orbital: what have you seen that makes believing in god more reasonable?

orbital

To Firefly: The originator of this thread mentioned atheists who affirm that they would not, under any circumstance, admit to the existence of God even if they were to witness a miracle that appears to be divine in nature. I hoped to illustrate the very circumstances that would make it more reasonable to ascribe an anomalous occurrence to God and thereby undercut the validity of their unyielding stand.

Since the discussion was purely theoretical, I made no claims that miracles conforming to the conditions that would make believing in God more reasonable have actually happened. As far as I know, they have not.

That said, there are arguments- such as the Teleological argument, the Cosmological argument, and the Reformed Epistemologist's argument- that show how it is reasonable to believe in God. These arguments do not prove that the Christian God exists. Rather, they demonstrate that belief in God can be reasonable, and therefore rational.

Dragonlich

Perhaps there's a third option: the "miraculous anomaly" cannot be explained scientifically <b>YET</b>, but will be explained in the future.

Example: In the olde days, people wondered why the sun moved around in the sky. They explained that by saying their respective gods made it move. Today we can explain how it works, but at the time it certainly seemed miraculous, impossible to explain with their "science".

Oh, and if something really freaky happened, it can still be attributed to chance. I know enough about quantum-mechanics to know that the world is infinately more freaky than most people think. For example, because of quantum-mechanics' probability, it is possible (if unlikely) that I'll suddenly move 2 meters to the left without any apparent reason. Certainly a "miraculous anomaly", but not one initiated by some god.

CSflim

What would it take to convice me? Well at this stage, it would take something spec-fucking-tacular!

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bermuDa

if any of those things happened, i'd sooner have myself committed before claiming i've found faith.

the only thing that would make me believe in god is if I become god, in which case OTHER people would have me committed.

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I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

lumpenprole

Yeah, well speaking for noone but myself I'd be pretty freaked out if something that created a universe this size and complexity would give a flying fuck about you, me or anything else. When's the last time you gave a thought to the struggles and tribulations of the bugs that live in your eyelashes?

And to answer the question. It would pretty much take something that involved more than me. Like, let's say that all the members of churches other than one denomination came down with boils. That would be pretty convincing.

Or, on the flipside, how about a little divine intervention between two groups of people about to tear each other to shreds? Helllloooo! Jehovahhhh! Middle East over here!

Maybe if we could demonstrate that we get statistically better answers to questions by praying than by careful experimentation.

Or something like Woody Allen said:

"If only god would give me a clear sign! Like a large deposit in a numbered swiss bank account!"

papermachesatan

Same here. Assuming that the supernatural had a hand in a event just because you can't figure out what happened has usually only led to trouble.

Podmore

There really isn't anything that could be objective proof. I think a good start would be getting all the faithful from differing religions to believe in the same god. That would be pretty impressive. But I'd think a god could simply plant the firm knowlege firmly into my head, without any stunts.

Pennington

Two things would make me believe. Scientifically provable evidence, eg God coming down and doing a few provable miracals. Like a big rock that says "God was here." If a giant, huge rock made of gold or platinum started poping out of the earth with that inscription while on multiple video tapes and in view of prominent skeptics and didn't vanish but zapped anybody who was unworthy or something to that nature, then I would believe in God. If lightning started striking anybody who said "Hail satan" immediatly after they say it, then I would believe in God. The horsemen might help convince me.

Of coarse, a stern voice from the heavans, giving me commands and answering my life questions started talking to me, I'd probably do what it says. Btw, is it just me or do other people's version of God have a female voice?

[edit]- I just had a funny thought. What if God acted kind of like Prime Intelect from localroger's stories and would actually verbally answer any question asked to Him. I could picture people walking down the street talking to God.

"Hey God, did I remember to close the garage door?"
*Clap of lightning/thunder* "YES!!!!"

"Hey God, do you know what time Sienfield starts tonight?"
*Clap of lightning/thunder* "10:35!!!"

"Hey God, what are you wearing?"
*Clap of lightning/thunder* ect.....

Dragonlich

This is no proof of God at all. It's a sign of mental problems... Voices in your head telling you what to do??? I'd go see some professional help, dude.

duckznutz

I think everyone is missing the point a little . . . . . . in order to have faith or to believe it is essential NOT to know for sure. Otherwise it would just be 'knowing' and not beleiving.

Believing is founded on the lack of proof. Believers have faith in something being true without knowing for sure.

Atheists (like me) refuse to accept that we should ever just 'believe' and take someones word for it. If it cannot be proven then it is just an abstract concept.

I was watching CSI last night and wondered if a modern Court of Law would find for the case for the existance of God. In fact thats a great thread-starter . . .

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Where your talents and the needs of the world cross . . there lies your vocation.

lumpenprole

Actually, everybody takes everybody else's word for a tremendous amount of things. I firmly believe that nuclear weapons work, even though I've never seen one used. I'm taking the word of my history teachers, textbooks, etc.

I think the point is setting a reasonable standard of doubt. Though I do not share it, I can understand how a belief in a god might meet that standard in an individual.

In a day to day setting, belief in a god doesn't really require any extraordinary external evidence. Really it just more or less relies on your feelings. People who argue that proof is the antithesis of faith fail to see that the feeling that god is with you, is a form of proof. It's just only proof enough for the person who has it.

If that person then wants to convince someone else, the burden of proof shifts to why the consensual reality that the two people share supports that feeling. If the second person already shares that feeling, then the standard is set pretty low. If the second person doesn't, then it gets set higher.

However, since god is mostly an unprovable assertion, (i.e. immaterial, omnipresent, omniscient) it still pretty much comes down to the feelings of the parties involved. When you're talking philosophy, proof is pretty slippery.

I think for most aetheists, any scientific proof that god exists, that was properly vetted by independent sources would be enough. Otherwise, it's just down to whether you feel like it or not.

duckznutz

yes but scientific proof that god exists would actually trouble the believers I think!

I have never seen a nuclear explosion but i beleive other people who say they they have seen proof of such devices. the experiments are repeated in many countries and there is not much doubt about it. The problem with god is that NO-ONE can say they have seen proof existance. We all are simply required to 'believe'

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Where your talents and the needs of the world cross . . there lies your vocation.

lurkette

Bravo!!! This is about as perfectly as it could be said.

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"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

The_Dude

god himself in front of me.

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"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

papermachesatan

wlcm

For me it would take a whole lot, since not only does god have to prove himself to me undenialbly like something out of Bruce Almighty. Also, whose god are we tallking about here? Even if somehow the christian god appeared before me and proved himselve to me, i still won't be a believer in chirstianity until there is proof somehow that he is the only god out there and that his is the only one true religion.

Like so many said before me...its pretty hard, probably even for god, to prove that something--namely other gods--doesn't exist.

wlcm

Oh yea, also, how could you tell the difference between all mightly and very mighty? a very mighty imposter could come and try to fool you.

joecool333

I'm pretty agnostic so I guess this discussion is a little outside of my scope of beliefs, but I'm of course open to proof that a God exists so I'd like to ask if any of the athiests would consider something like the elimation of world hunger and suffering as substantial evidence to a higher power. For the God believers of all denominations I still fail to see how proof of God would be detrimental to your beliefs. When Jesus was walking around the earth and doing all of his supposed miracles is that not what got people to believe in God in the first place? Without such acts of "God" do you think people would truly have believed him to be the son of God? Discuss

wlcm

If world hunger suddenly ended over night, then i would be quite amused, but still you always have to wonder if it is the work of someone very mighty or actually the all mighty itself.

DHS

Personally, I would need a definition of what I am believing in. Every religion has a different interpretation of what God really is. Trinity, a person, a force...

As for what it would take, it's hard for me to say. Personally I just find it hard to believe in what cannot be proven, and I doubt it will be in my lifetime. I would rather put my faith in things I can relate to like family, friends, love and happiness. If I am to be punished after I die for living my life this way the only I shall be blamed and I shall accept the consequences.

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"keep your friends close and your enemies closer."

shAzb0t

Joecool, Jesus was voted to be the son of god in the council of (to lazy to look up exact spelling, starts with an N) around 300 A.D under the orders of Constantine, and it was more of a politcal move then a "hey you know what..that guy walked on water..fuck he must of been the son of god *slaps head", because if the son of god walked the earth, then alot of people would see that as a reason to join your religion, so christianity flourished. Also the true believers of God didn't take to Jesus very well..and the God believing religions of the time now think of him as only a prophet or just a normal man, because they were threatened by his pressence.

And for me, I would want to see a man wearing nifty sandles and a white robe, with rays of sunshine and doves flying around him, and winged humanoids playing harps on his lap standing in front of me, and then promptly smiting me and all these other non-believing hethens.

If this post doesn't make much sense please forgive me, at a Lan party and haven't slept in a day or 2

Jay Francis

Just about any real miracle would work. But, which God. The old testament god, the new testament go, the jewish god, the muslim god, the hindu ultimate deity?

wilywampa

does anyone else know whether this is true? i've never heard that before

CSflim

Don't know WHO decided that Jesus was the son of God, but he never appeared to make such a claim himself. Could be wrong though, but I don't think the bible ever calls him that. He refers to himself as The son of Man, or King of the Jews.

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johnny black

The Council of Nicea.

http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/GLIMPSE...glmps088.shtml

Hey guess what, Christians disagreed. Hey guess what, Christians still disagree. Hey guess what, if you call yourself a Christian there are other people who call themselves Christians who think you're going to hell. Hey guess what, people believe things they've never researched. Hey guess what, people passionately believe supposedly important things like what happens after they die that they've never researched. Hey guess what, it doesn't matter, there is no corrolation between people who do their reasearch and people who go to heaven. Hey guess what, it's all farting in the wind anyway.

What would it take to get me to believe in God? A complete change of mindset that would allow me to know things that cannot be known. All you people who would believe in God if you saw a miracle are morons. Oh gosh, I saw something I can't explain, time to start wearing a cross and praying to the God of some Mesopotamian culture! He said he was God, can't argue with that! If you're waiting for something to be proven, you're equally a moron. Prove your own existance first.

ubertuber

Actually, Firefly, that is true, more or less.

Back around 300 AD, there was a priest named Arius in Alexandria, Egypt who taught that Jesus was born man, and through his actions and relationship with God became divine. This is a significant point, because it means that Jesus was created by the father. It also implies that any of us could be transformed into a divine entity if we were to play our cards right. Now at this point in history, there was not an official church doctrine on the issue, so it was debated heatedly in the streets. The chief opponent was Bishop Alexander of Alexandria. He held that Jesus has always existed, co-eternally with God. There are implications here as well. This would mean that Jesus was born divine, so not only does that not allow for you or I to attain this status, it also implies that he had a will or capacity for a relationship with God that is beyond the common man. Because of this, the standard that Jesus' life set was understandably beyond us mere mortals. The masses became quite charged over this issue, coming to riots and even assasinations of key church figures. Eventually Constantine himself had to get involved, and he used his influence to convene the Council at Nicea in 325. Constantine himself was present, and he did have some political reasons to press the council for a quick resolution (the burning and sacking of cities, including Alexandria was one of them). The council eventually adopted the Nicean creed by vote, and the creed declares that "We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty... We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ. Begotten of the father. Begotten, not made. Of one being with the Father. God from God, light from light, true God from true God."

Incidentally, this wording in the Nicean creed says that Jesus was of one being of the Father. This is a translation. The original said that Jesus was of the same substance as the father. This word for substance, ousia, was a real sticking point. It became the wedge that drove the Greek orthodox church to part ways with the Catholic church (at that point the only church around. This is also the source of the line "We believe in one Catholic and Apostolic Church." This is said even in Protestant churches, since the original meaning of the word catholic is universal, and so the phrase indicates that the people believe that the churches will someday be reunited into one.) They (the Greek faction) felt that the point of the trinity was that it couldn't be understood. Sort of like a Zen koan, it was a way of preventing the mind from using its rational faculties to interpret God's nature. The Greek faction felt that the Nicean creed was too much of a "formula" for God's nature. The creed that they say omits this summary of God's nature.

This issue is mentioned in Karen Armstrong's book, "A History of God" which I would highly recommend to anyone. I also read a book that is entirely devoted to this particular conflict called "The Battle for Jesus." I'd recommend that as well, but I lent it out and never got it back, so I don't know the author's name. It is interesting to note that one of the key doctrines of modern Christianity was decided by vote, but don't forget that the Bible was assembled by a council, and the Popes are elected. So this is a long standing tradition in the Church. There have been seven of these ecuminical councils over the ages, Nicea being the first. Check this link out for the quick and dirty version of the Arian (named for Arius) controversy and the Nicean Council.

http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/GLIMPSE...glmps088.shtml

-uber (edited for terrible spelling and grammar)

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

hobo

I'll not be smirking like a bastard when you die and that is the end of you because I'll likely be dead too and that is the end.

To the guy who said:
What about if a 10 ft man with a flowing white beard, white robes and a divine aura appeared in front of you and claimed to be god?

I say:
I would think that I had just met Gandalf and look to see if he was wearing the One Ring and that was why he became evil and wanted me to worship him like a god

Actually, I'd probably throw a rock at him and run. I don't like how "white" is considered good and "black" is considered evil. I think it is what contributed to the whole racism thing (is that not obvious?) and it is a stupid notion to begin with.

I did believe in God for a while (a Christian friend and his family tried to convert me while I was like 5) but one day I just realised that he didn't exist, just like the tooth faerie, but was created by us to make us feel better about death and to scare people into following the rules. All the contradictions in the doctrine and an affinity for science helped too.

wlcm

Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
I'll be smirking like a bastard when all you unbelievers die and realize that there is a higher power. Not on the grounds that your damned or anything, just more on the notion that you so fervently oppose the thought that something greater then us created this massive and virtually unknown universe.


I think i'd be laughing more if you ended up in hell with me because you devoted your life to the wrong religion

maxero

i think hearing a voice would be convincing enough, assuming it wasnt just screaming obscenities or names of random fruits.

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cough

TawG

i dont know im not very selectable about these things, as its all about the moment

lumpenprole

Yeah, I don't think that's a good standard of proof. There's a guy who sleeps near the park around the corner from my house and he constantly tells me he hears the voice of god. Mind you, it hasn't told him anything like "lay off the ripple and try to get yourself cleaned up", so it's probably not a judgemental god.

Anyway, I'm just saying, plenty of people hear voices. However, you'd be hard pressed to find a beleiver who was ready to canonize them.

CSflim

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jwoody

Global peace and the end of famine and disease wouldn't convince me that there is a god. Humans already have the ability to stop wars and feed the hungry.

Unfortunately, too many people are still waiting for god to sort these problems out.

I also agree with BermuDa; if I started hearing voices in my head and hallucinating I'd get some psychiatric help.

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