Willravel

I'm sure most are familiar with the fictional Marvel comic villain Magneto. At first glance, it's a very simple character; he can control magnetism and he thinks mutants are better than humans. At second glass, though, things become a bit more complex.

Magneto, born Max Eisenhardt, was born to a Jewish family in Germany in the mid 1920s. As a boy, he watches his family torn apart by the Nazis. His parents are murdered and he is sent to Auschwitz. He manages to escape to safety, but the experience defined his existence, it gave his life meaning. He discovers very early on that he isn't a normal human, he's a "mutant" or a fictional leap ahead in human evolution via radical (supernatural) mutation. He eventually comes to the conclusion that a second holocaust, a genocide of mutants, is inevitable, and he devotes his life to defending mutants. He gathers great strength by organizing other mutants to his cause. He often is on a line, philosophically, between wanting peaceful co-existence with humans or wanting to destroy them.

It just occoured to me that Israel is finding itself in a no-so-dissimilar position. They endured impossible suffering and death at the hands of the Nazis, and that of them which survived became very strong and took the position of absolutely, positively never allowing such an atrocity to visit them again. Israel seems to walk a line between wanting to peacefully co-exist with Palestine and the rest of the Arab world, and wanting to destroy them.

Am I reading too much into this, or could it be that Magneto is an incarnation of Israel in the comic medium?

Halanna

I think at the time Magneto was introduced to the public it was meant to be just what it was.

It would appear with the passage of time, the story of Magneto (Magnus?) is parallelling Israel in angst/resolution.

I think it is coincidence. Otherwise you have to assume Magneto was invented to display Israel, other than make a super hero emerge from the holocaust.

ratbastid

The Holocaust is an excellent macguffin. Is what it comes down to.

Strange Famous

Magneto is not a villian. I cant really add much to a discussion which starts with the basic assertion that he is.

Huey Newton said something like "Rage is a justifiable reaction to injustice"

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Willravel

No need to be melodramatic. Villain means antagonist, which means someone that has a negative effect on the protagonist or protagonists. He absolutely is a villain when we meet him. He was an ally when he worked with Charles in Israel and a victim in childhood, but the Magnus we've all come to know and love is a villain.

Charlatan

Here's the thing. Do you think he is a good allegory for Israel?

The meaning in stories is not always what an author intends. It is always infused with what the viewer/reader brings to the story. The author may have approached this the way that ratbastid suggests but now that willravel and his life experience approaches the story, it changes its meaning. I may read the same story and get something entirely different out of it.

I don't get hung up on what the author intends.

And I agree with SF. Magneto isn't a villain per se. That's what's cool about the Marvel Universe. There are many shades of grey. Just like in the real world.

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Strange Famous

He is only a villian if you buy that mutants are less worthy of life than humans

And I am not being melodramatic, I simply find the starting point of your question false.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Willravel

I don't think the character is a perfect allegory for Israel, mostly because the character changes depending on who's writing him, but the overall character, the parts that are generally consistent through the years, seem similar. It brings a different dimension to Magneto and begs a few questions about Israel. It just struck me as interesting.

BTW, the villain isn't always bad. Javert was the villain in Les Miserables, but he was doing what he thought was right and what the law required of him. It was simply the moral relativism in play that he happened to find himself in an antagonistic role. Likewise with Magneto, he's doing what he sees is the moral thing to do, generally, but the birth of his character was to create an antagonist for Charles Xavier.

Strange Famous

I havent read the book of les miserables, but I have seen the musical. If you refer to the police, he was an honourable man. The so called hero was a wretched dog in my opinion, happy to sacrifice the girl who loved him to save his own skin.

Magneto represents all repressed peoples in my view, not just Jews or just Israel. He is indeed an antagonist of the cringing, snivelling Xavier, who chooses to abandon his people to gain some level of favour from the racist humans.

Magneto believes in doing whatever is right, he believes in his right to protect himself and his people by any means necessary. He meets violence with violence when necessary. Xavier believes that the best thing is to grovel before tyranny and even assist in it if it saves your own skin.

If you want to look at the holocaust analogy, Xavier would be one of the Jewish leaders of the ghetto - handing and selling out his people a bit at a time and all the while telling himself that it was the best thing and the way to save at least some people. He will keep believing it till no one is left.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Xerxys

The dude tried to kill all humans. Yes Strange_Famous, he's a villain!!! WTF??? And I don't care if everyone is entitled to their views, but yiour total analysis of Xavier is SO wrong!!

Willravel

The X-Men are protagonists, and Magneto and the brotherhood are the opposing force to the X-Men, therefore he's a villain.

Zenturian

No, cause Israel is bending over backwards to make peace and resort to violence as a last resort. So I would say he is not.

Willravel

Magneto often bended over backwards even in the face of government oppression against mutants. Still, other times Magneto would lead attacks and innocent people would be hurt or killed. Sound familiar?

Zenturian

I don't recall Israel shooting a wave that ripped around the world killing millions. I do recal Israel giving up land for peace, only to have the Palastinians fill that land with weapons that they then used to launch attacks back into the very people that gave them that land in the first place.

Willravel

Israel developed nuclear weapons and has made it no secret that not only are they willing, but are likely planning on using them in the future. All in the name of defending themselves. Much like Magneto has said that he was defending mutants.

Anyway, if you look at a map of Israel and Palestine in 2009, you'll see that Israel has been expansionist and Palestine is steadily shrinking into oblivion. I won't go into great detail, as it's already been repeatedly demonstrated in other threads.

biznatch

This thread makes TFP even more awesome.

To answer the OP: I don't think that Magneto was purposefully written to resemble Israel at any point. I can see however a similar attitude, with grossly similar motivations, provided you adjust scales and overlook quite a few differences.
Magneto is not threatened, really. He's pretty much one of the most powerful beings on earth, has a massive following, etc. Israel is in a hot spot, and it's forces are not vastly superior to its potential enemies(all the surrounding countries) and is not popular in a lot of countries.

I agree that Magneto is a villain. He pretty much seeks world domination, and his "eliminate the inferior" ideology is more comparable to Hitler than Israel, IMO. His character is tragic, and his struggle is definitely emotional, and so the reader does empathize with him quite a bit. But he is still a Villain, and a badass one at that.

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levite

Will, I love the fact that you posed this question in the Philosophy section. You are awesome!

No, I definitely don't think Magneto is an allegory for Israel, and if he was intended to be so, I don't think he's a good one.

Look, I can't defend every action Israel's ever taken vis-a-vis the Palestinians and other Arabs, and I won't try. But overall, I think they've shown great restraint. They have the most advanced military technology, and the best-trained soldiers in the Middle East-- for that matter, easily the equal of some of the European nations-- and the Palestinians are armed with with homemade rockets, second-hand third-rate Russian missiles, some suicide bomb vests, a few guns, and some rocks; yet the Palestinian conflict has dragged on for years upon years, with a body count that hasn't hit five thousand yet. The US killed more Iraqis than that the first week of the damn war. And this confrontation with the Palestinians is mostly dragging because the Palestinians can't find a leader they can all rally around long enough to make the land swap for the less than 2% of the land still in dispute, to wrap this shit up so they can set up their state, and the IDF can pack up and get home, and everyone can get back to the business of quarreling amongst themselves about religion.

I think if Israel really were like Magneto, they would have long ago exterminated the Palestinians altogether, and would have gone on to brutally subjugate and/or decimate the rest of the Arab world.

We may have sympathy on Magneto for his origins as a Holocaust survivor, but the fact that he has taken Auschwitz as justification for a quest for world dominance and decimation of homo sapiens-- something not impossible for a charismatic mutant of his omega-level power-- is indicative that he is simply not sane. His actions regarding world conquest are immoral and unethical-- and from a Jewish standpoint, utterly incompatible with either the halakhah (Jewish law) or traditional Jewish moral philosophy.

But overall, Israel has allowed this confrontation to drag on because they don't want a bloodbath. Even a bloodbath of their enemies. Magneto would never scruple so.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

aberkok

I once read that Magneto was an allegory for Malcolm X and Xavier was an allegory for Martin Luther King.

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Charlatan

Aberkok... I like that one. It also makes sense given when Xavier and Magneto were created.

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- Old Man Luedecke

Willravel

I think it's more about how they feel. Magneto feels that he and his kind are in serious mortal danger from the oppressive forces of the majority of humans, mostly because he was a victim of humans at their absolute worst. The experience taught him that you can't have an optimistic view of humans, that the fear in humans can make them do horrible things to people they don't understand.

And you may not be giving Israel enough credit. They have one of the most powerful militaries in the world, they have technology on par with the US (as they buy from us), and they have nuclear weapons. They're easily more powerful than the rest of the region combined. That doesn't make them invulnerable, of course, but they're not to be trifled with in any serious way. Israel may be outnumbered by it's Arab and Persian neighbors, but those neighbors aren't anywhere near as powerful as Israel... just like the relationship between humans and Magneto.

It's funny, I thought I'd be defending the suggestion that Israel was comparable to a villain, not defending the ascertain that Magneto was a villain.


It should also be said that, by my recollection, Magneto isn't always in world-domination or kill-all-humans mode. Sometimes, he's simply trying to selflessly help mutants. On more than a half dozen occasions, he's created a place that could be a new, free mutant home that's far away from people. One could compare that to the creation of a free Jewish homeland for those victimized by the holocaust and in danger from residual anti-semitism.

m0rpheus

When Magneto was first created he was just a generic villain and Prof. X was generic good guy. At first there wasn't the anti-mutant bias in the X-men comics (in the first issue they are helping the US military who gladly accepts the help) the later comics would introduce. Once the Anti-mutant thing came about a good number of changes happened.
While I don't believe Marvel or any of the writers have come right out and said it, X-men writers realised that they could use these counterpoints as an allegory for Malcolm X and MLK without being overly controversial because after all it's just a comic about mutants right?

Also Magneto's jewish roots were ret-conned in. His time in the concentration camps were an earlier ret-con where he was presented as a Gypsy.

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biznatch

Yeah, I saw it like that as well: one wants integration, the other is divided between living completely separated from them or other "solutions".

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Zenturian

And its pretty clear that those Nukes are the only thing keeping Israel safe. If you want peace with Israel, its really easy. Just ignore it.

And if you look at a map of Israel and Palastine in 2005, you will see that Israel gave Palastine LOTS of land. Palastine then used said land to launch attacks at Israel. Fool me once...

Willravel

It's pretty clear that control over magnetism is the only thing keeping Magneto safe. If you want peace with Magneto, it's really easy. Just leave him to his own devices. His original goal was to simply leave humanity and have a place just for mutants. He didn't become the bad guy until people prevented that.
I don't want to get too much into politics, because there are already plenty of threads on this, but a common image in those threads is this one:

I don't think one could really say Palestine has lots of land anymore. BTW, the borders are even smaller now, in 2009.

Zenturian

I notice it doesn't show the land given to Palastine in 2005. Why did the Palastinians fill hospitals up with rockets after Israel gave them the land they wanted? Why did they launch up 180 rockets a day if all they wanted was peace?

spectre

It's easy to side with Magneto and feel sympathy for his cause until you see his solution is to kill everyone who is different from him. How does that make him any better? You did realize that Magneto continually tries to commit acts of genocide, right? And since there's no time when genocide is justified, he's the antagonist.

Xavier doesn't abandon his people, he knows that violence will only bring more resentment from the humans. That resentment will only lead to more violence and then who has he helped?

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levite

Will, I don't want to sidetrack this thread in a politics bog, but that map you've posted is deceptive. The "Palestinian land" in 2000 shows Palestinian areas under nominal Palestinian control, not land Israel has formally declared to be Palestinian land under the terms of the 2000 Camp David and Sharm el Sheikh accords, which were the last time any significant progress was made in the peace talks. At that time, Israel formally designated the Gaza Strip and over 98% of the West Bank to be Palestinian land for a Palestinian State. Technically, those portions not under Palestinian control are considered to be under temporary military control by the IDF until Palestinian Security Forces are able to regroup and take over and ensure safety, security, and that they will not let terrorists into Israel. But there is only around 1.5% of the Palestinians' total land demands that are still technically in question, and that's only because they're holding out for half of Jerusalem proper, instead of just doing the inevitable land swap and getting things wrapped up.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

dlish

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Poppinjay

I always thought Magneto was a modern day reflection of Captain Nemo.

Ruling a world that nobody else much wants, noble in efforts to save uncharted areas.

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Willravel

Good point, Dlish. I suppose the thing inevitably was going to wander slightly into entertainment and politics, simply as a part of establishing the premise.
I like this!

dlish

Thats true Will.

i have no problem with someone establishing the premise whilst fulfilling the needs of the thread. i think levite did a swell job of that.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
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Cynosure

We're talking about a comic book character, right?

Magneto is indeed a villain, in comic book terms. If the boot fits, then wear it – and Magneto wears the "villain" boot well.

Now, there are sub-categories of villain in comic books, and I would not put Magneto and, say, Dr. Doom in the same sub-category. But definitely they're both villains. (At least, that's the way I remember it. I have little idea of what Marvel is doing with its characters, nowadays.)

Strange Famous

Ive heard the Malcolm and Martin one before, and it does make a little sense.

But to me the best comparison to Xavier is Quisling.

On the same basis you could say Magneto was a wartime Stalin... someone who did whatever it took to protect his people, even if it meant crossing the line.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

iwst99

I've never seen such philosophical discussion of the X-Men. Everything I learned about Magneto I learned from Marvel vs Capcom 2. Damn him and his triangle jump...

Willravel

Wait until I get one going about how Beast is an allegory for the change in the role of government in post WWII Britain.

iwst99

Oh yeah! I heard about that on Oprah.

Strange Famous

I repeat "rage is a justifiable response to injustice"

Xavier is a really disgusting individual - on the one hand a coward and an apologist for the discrimination against his own pople, on the other hand he shelters the serial killer Wolverine.

Magneto may have faults, he may sometimes have gone too far, but every time he did he was pushed into it but intolerable persecution on the part of homo inferior.

I still like the analogy of Xavier as Quisling, a coward, a traitor, a sell out

Magneto is a man of iron, who understands that one cannot make an omlete without breaking eggs.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Willravel

Ah, but you can't ignore real world consequences. While you may see Xavier as a watered down version, Xavier is not likely to spark a war that mutants may eventually lose. Moreover, while many mutants do feel the effects of bigotry, not all do. If some mutants can produce an environment of understanding that actually CURES bigotry, doesn't that seem the best solution? Isn't changing bigotry to understanding a better solution to war? Should the African slaves brought to the UK have risen up and overthrown the British government, installing their own rule as being dominant over whites?

Strange Famous

Well, it is quite strange for an American to give lectures about slavery to an Englishman.

Slavery was abolished in the UK in 1772 and in the whole empire in 1833

It was not in the US until 1865

The truth is that the mutants faced a situation where they could never be equal. They were vastly outnumber, but geneticall superior. The cringing Xavier pursues a policy of intergraion that is doomed to failure. He knows this, but continues to fight for it, with the help of a gang of misguided youths and desperate mercenaries.

Magneto the good understands that separation is necessary. All he is asking is for homo superior to be given their space and left alone. Xavier the snake however will not rest until he has created a new genocide of his own people... all the while claiming he only wants piece.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Willravel

I'm sure you're not referring to my post, as I did not lecture you on slavery but rather posed a hypothetical attempting to draw a comparison to the fictional situation mutants face. If you were, nice strawman.

Anyway, you don't know for a fact that mutants and humans would never live together harmoniously, mainly because the Marvel universe deals with a plethora of alternate futures, some of which are post human/mutant war and some post human/mutant peace. As peace and equality is a possibility, the position of mutant dominion/human genocide (which is Magneto's eventual position after fighting for segregation for years) seems extremist. He becomes the mirror to that which he hates most in humans. Had it not been for his repeated acts of terrorism against humanity, it's more likely that the image of mutants could have been changed from fear to understanding more easily by Xavier.

If Magneto only wants peace, why, when allowed to have his Asteroid M, does he put nuclear weapons on an asteroid and send it crashing towards the earth? Simple: genocide.