20/20: Stupid in America - How We Cheat Our Kids - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Seer666 · 02-12-2007, 07:15 PM

Took a bit of deliberation to decide where to post this one at. The people that post here are the ones most likely to care, so, here it is. I don't know how old this episode of 20/20 is, but it still seem relevant. Somethings has got to change.

http://www.fanpop.com/spots/documentaries/links/17434

Astrocloud · 02-12-2007, 09:25 PM

As far as the educational system goes -give us motivated students and you'll have educated kids.

From the title, I thought it would be about W. and the deficit.

Willravel · 02-12-2007, 09:42 PM

Give me an education system that promotes individuality and free thinking instead of trying to create a worker class and you'll have educated kids. Give me lesson plans that aren't cabon copies of lesson plans from the 50s. Give me a school system that doesn't brainwash with false political correctness, academic bias, and student censorship. Give the kids not only the ability to question authority, but instill in them drive to constantly strive for excellence by challenging the status quo.

I don't remember ever having the opportunity to shine in public schools. I hope that changes soon.

Seer666 · 02-12-2007, 10:02 PM

Well, being the victim of a public education, this is a topic I can relate to. It's also the reason I dropped out in 10th grade. If there was an education system in place that encouraged actual learning instead of spitting out what people want to hear, I may have stayed in. When I was in college, I enjoyed it immensely. they knew that if I wasn't happy and wasn't learning, they wouldn't get my money. there are some good ideas bounced around in that show. There needs to be a massive overhaul of the educational system as a whole.

Lasereth · 02-13-2007, 04:23 AM

The education system isn't gonna change because a overwhelming majority of people/students don't give a shit about learning, thinking, or developing any sense of cognitive advancement. They care about when the next party is and if they can pull out a C-. They're the students fucking over the people who actually care to learn something.

Deltona Couple · 02-13-2007, 04:40 AM

Give me a parent who actually CARES about their child's education, and actually INVOLVES themselves, and THAT would be a good start! Too many parents in this world treat school as their personally baby-sitter. The schools are here to EDUCATE the children, not RAISE them....THAT is the job of the parents!....*gets off soapbox*

ngdawg · 02-13-2007, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltona Couple

Give me a parent who actually CARES about their child's education, and actually INVOLVES themselves, and THAT would be a good start! Too many parents in this world treat school as their personally baby-sitter. The schools are here to EDUCATE the children, not RAISE them....THAT is the job of the parents!....*gets off soapbox*

Don't get off it just yet. Yes, it is the parent's responsibility to enhance and involve themselves in their children's education. Too many kids I worked with went home to empty houses, played video games until 3am and no parents told them otherwise.
Cases such the mother of Dorian, featured in this piece, who tried to get the school system to recognize her son's inability to read, though, fall on deaf ears when all the system cares about is that $$$ grand to keep him under their thumbs. Not once did any of those people in that room approach Dorian and ask him anything, even though he was sitting right there-it was like a parole hearing.
I like the idea that, in Belgium, if schools don't pass testing, they're gone. Here, the notion that just pouring money into a failing school will make it better is a myth perpetuated by school board members who refuse to believe they could be wrong.
Competition would definitely be a great start; do well and you get the kids and the government $$; do poorly and it's 'see ya'...what college would survive if 50% of its students don't learn and drop out?

Cynthetiq · 02-13-2007, 01:10 PM

I watched the original airing of this.

When I lived in Singapore I met people from the 3 different school systems, American school, British school, Chinese Singapore school. I had friends in all the system,s and by far the American was the most lax in comparison. The British and Chinese had multilingual students that spoke other languages conversationally and comfortably out of need to communicate whereas the Americans did it out of requirement French and Spanish.

The rest of the curriculum was much more challenging than even what I had already experieced in the 4 years of private school and 1 year of College I recieved before expatriating to Singapore.

My sister attended Singapore American School and as part of their Winter Break they travel for 3 weeks to a foreign country, Elephant Trekking in Nepal, Walking the Great Wall in China, Skiing in Korea, Spelunking in Australia to name just a few of the trips the kids could select from. Upon return had to write about their experiences that was about the most complex it got for them.

Bill O'Rights · 02-13-2007, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Astrocloud

From the title, I thought it would be about W. and the deficit.

Was that really necessary?

I see two very valid points here.
Yes, parents suck. And I mean a lot of 'em. I've witnessed it first hand when my daughter was in high school. What a bunch of dregs.

On the other hand, the school beauraracy was much as NG pointed out...all about the Benjamins.
It's a pathetic situation.

ShaniFaye · 02-13-2007, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltona Couple

Give me a parent who actually CARES about their child's education, and actually INVOLVES themselves, and THAT would be a good start!

Thats exactly why my daughter is home schooled

Astrocloud · 02-13-2007, 07:31 PM

I had a crappy experience in High School and a much better one in College. I can remember blowing off my homework and watching TV for hours or (much later) smoking pot. I can remember the lame busywork that was forced on me and the lack of enthusiasm from my teachers.

But you know who I blame? I don't blame my classes or the schools... I blame myself. There is a general "Apathy" that pervades the US. Nobody tries to improve themselves because nobody cares if they do. That includes parents, teachers, classmates and strangers. Ultimately though -it is up to the individual to make the choices which improve themselves.

So if there is a crisis, we as a culture have got to come together somehow to encourage the individual students to give a damn -and even if we did that -it would still be up to them.

ngdawg · 02-13-2007, 08:58 PM

As a (former) teacher's assistant, I can attest to the power of the unions. They are strong lobbyists; they changed the laws here in NJ so that assistants could no longer be laypeople-they now have to be certified and have college credits-if not, then districts appoint teachers as teaching assistants which, of course means higher pay which means higher union dues paid.(compare my $10k a year for assistant vs teacher starting salary of $26k and percentile union dues and it's easy to see why they pushed for the change)
Teachers get tenure; this means that they can not just be 'dismissed' or, as in my case, unrenewed, after they survive a set number of years in the system(in this district, that's 4 years. Guess which year my contract wasn't renewed-in the 4th year, the BoE pays full medical/dental/life coverage in addition to giving tenure).
As long as we have such a strong union making the rules, we will continue to have teachers that are 'gliding to retirement'.
It's one more serious 'glitch' in our educational process that needs to be addressed. Boards of education cowtow to the strongholds of the NEA's.
Do I think teachers should make more? Yes, there's something wrong with a society that places a higher value on a baseball player than a teacher.
Do I believe in tenure? Hell, no. No other profession has this policy, union or not. Bad cop, out. Inept fireman, probationary and maybe out. Bad nurse, gone. Bad teacher-hang on until retirement, barring criminal conviction.

Seer666 · 02-21-2007, 04:39 PM

Well, lots of good points. the simple fact is though, even with an involved parent, the system is tragically and hopelessly flawed. yes a parent needs to be involved in their kids education, but how many parents know enough to teach every subject? I know that at least some of you with kids looked at some of the more advanced subjects in high school and just shook your heads. that is what we pay taxes for. to higher people the know the subject well enough to teach it. And, at least back when i was in school, that is not the case a lot(most) of the times. They slap a body in the class room, give them a teachers aid book, and tell them to go at it. Good teachers should be rewarded, bad ones dropped like the dead weight they are. We are losing our edge, and it the next generation that is going to pay for it if something doesn't get done.

02-12-2007, 07:15 PM	#1 (permalink)
Seer666 Oh dear God he breeded Location: Arizona	20/20: Stupid in America - How We Cheat Our Kids Took a bit of deliberation to decide where to post this one at. The people that post here are the ones most likely to care, so, here it is. I don't know how old this episode of 20/20 is, but it still seem relevant. Somethings has got to change. http://www.fanpop.com/spots/documentaries/links/17434 __________________ Bad spellers of the world untie!!! I am the one you warned me of I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

02-12-2007, 10:02 PM	#4 (permalink)
Seer666 Oh dear God he breeded Location: Arizona	Well, being the victim of a public education, this is a topic I can relate to. It's also the reason I dropped out in 10th grade. If there was an education system in place that encouraged actual learning instead of spitting out what people want to hear, I may have stayed in. When I was in college, I enjoyed it immensely. they knew that if I wasn't happy and wasn't learning, they wouldn't get my money. there are some good ideas bounced around in that show. There needs to be a massive overhaul of the educational system as a whole. __________________ Bad spellers of the world untie!!! I am the one you warned me of I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

02-13-2007, 04:23 AM	#5 (permalink)
Lasereth Knight of the Old Republic Location: Winston-Salem, NC	The education system isn't gonna change because a overwhelming majority of people/students don't give a shit about learning, thinking, or developing any sense of cognitive advancement. They care about when the next party is and if they can pull out a C-. They're the students fucking over the people who actually care to learn something. __________________ "A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

02-13-2007, 04:40 AM	#6 (permalink)
Deltona Couple Addict Location: Spring, Texas	Give me a parent who actually CARES about their child's education, and actually INVOLVES themselves, and THAT would be a good start! Too many parents in this world treat school as their personally baby-sitter. The schools are here to EDUCATE the children, not RAISE them....THAT is the job of the parents!....gets off soapbox __________________ "It is not that I have failed, but that I have found 10,000 ways that it DOESN'T work!" --Thomas Edison

02-13-2007, 01:10 PM	#8 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	I watched the original airing of this. When I lived in Singapore I met people from the 3 different school systems, American school, British school, Chinese Singapore school. I had friends in all the system,s and by far the American was the most lax in comparison. The British and Chinese had multilingual students that spoke other languages conversationally and comfortably out of need to communicate whereas the Americans did it out of requirement French and Spanish. The rest of the curriculum was much more challenging than even what I had already experieced in the 4 years of private school and 1 year of College I recieved before expatriating to Singapore. My sister attended Singapore American School and as part of their Winter Break they travel for 3 weeks to a foreign country, Elephant Trekking in Nepal, Walking the Great Wall in China, Skiing in Korea, Spelunking in Australia to name just a few of the trips the kids could select from. Upon return had to write about their experiences that was about the most complex it got for them. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

02-12-2007, 09:25 PM	#2 (permalink)
Astrocloud Apocalypse Nerd	As far as the educational system goes -give us motivated students and you'll have educated kids. From the title, I thought it would be about W. and the deficit.

02-12-2007, 09:42 PM	#3 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Give me an education system that promotes individuality and free thinking instead of trying to create a worker class and you'll have educated kids. Give me lesson plans that aren't cabon copies of lesson plans from the 50s. Give me a school system that doesn't brainwash with false political correctness, academic bias, and student censorship. Give the kids not only the ability to question authority, but instill in them drive to constantly strive for excellence by challenging the status quo. I don't remember ever having the opportunity to shine in public schools. I hope that changes soon.

02-13-2007, 07:31 PM	#11 (permalink)
Astrocloud Apocalypse Nerd	I had a crappy experience in High School and a much better one in College. I can remember blowing off my homework and watching TV for hours or (much later) smoking pot. I can remember the lame busywork that was forced on me and the lack of enthusiasm from my teachers. But you know who I blame? I don't blame my classes or the schools... I blame myself. There is a general "Apathy" that pervades the US. Nobody tries to improve themselves because nobody cares if they do. That includes parents, teachers, classmates and strangers. Ultimately though -it is up to the individual to make the choices which improve themselves. So if there is a crisis, we as a culture have got to come together somehow to encourage the individual students to give a damn -and even if we did that -it would still be up to them.

02-13-2007, 08:58 PM	#12 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	As a (former) teacher's assistant, I can attest to the power of the unions. They are strong lobbyists; they changed the laws here in NJ so that assistants could no longer be laypeople-they now have to be certified and have college credits-if not, then districts appoint teachers as teaching assistants which, of course means higher pay which means higher union dues paid.(compare my $10k a year for assistant vs teacher starting salary of $26k and percentile union dues and it's easy to see why they pushed for the change) Teachers get tenure; this means that they can not just be 'dismissed' or, as in my case, unrenewed, after they survive a set number of years in the system(in this district, that's 4 years. Guess which year my contract wasn't renewed-in the 4th year, the BoE pays full medical/dental/life coverage in addition to giving tenure). As long as we have such a strong union making the rules, we will continue to have teachers that are 'gliding to retirement'. It's one more serious 'glitch' in our educational process that needs to be addressed. Boards of education cowtow to the strongholds of the NEA's. Do I think teachers should make more? Yes, there's something wrong with a society that places a higher value on a baseball player than a teacher. Do I believe in tenure? Hell, no. No other profession has this policy, union or not. Bad cop, out. Inept fireman, probationary and maybe out. Bad nurse, gone. Bad teacher-hang on until retirement, barring criminal conviction. __________________ Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

02-21-2007, 04:39 PM	#13 (permalink)
Seer666 Oh dear God he breeded Location: Arizona	Well, lots of good points. the simple fact is though, even with an involved parent, the system is tragically and hopelessly flawed. yes a parent needs to be involved in their kids education, but how many parents know enough to teach every subject? I know that at least some of you with kids looked at some of the more advanced subjects in high school and just shook your heads. that is what we pay taxes for. to higher people the know the subject well enough to teach it. And, at least back when i was in school, that is not the case a lot(most) of the times. They slap a body in the class room, give them a teachers aid book, and tell them to go at it. Good teachers should be rewarded, bad ones dropped like the dead weight they are. We are losing our edge, and it the next generation that is going to pay for it if something doesn't get done. __________________ Bad spellers of the world untie!!! I am the one you warned me of I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.