A what if about Obama..... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

pan6467 · 09-29-2008, 09:13 PM

I put this in Paranoia, because it is a "what if" and there is NO fact based to this question...... just a "what if" hypothetical I would be interested in hearing from those who are militant in their support of this man.

If you can find something on McCain or any ther candidate and please do so and ask the same hypothetical.

Disclaimer over..... here goes:

What if Rezko comes forth and really spills some shit on Obama, would it affect your support of him? What kind of kaka would rezko have to put forth to affect your support for him?

And IF Rezko spills shit on Obama, what do you think it would do to the race?

IMHO, it could create a backlash in support of Obama, in that some would believe it was untrue and a GOP setup to win and destroy Obama. On the other hand, those who are of the belief that Obama is truly different and means it when he says he will change government and take out corruption.... and it comes out he was corrupt.... it could truly poison their faith in government and candidates, creating an apathy to vote for a long time. I could see it being extremely divisive.

I also believe IF there were to be anything on Obama, it would be buried and kept under wraps until log after the election if it came out at all. I believe it would be buried not to save the man but to save the country from even more divisiveness.

Quote:

Attorneys believe Rezko is talking to prosecutors

By MIKE ROBINSON, Associated Press WriterMon Sep 29, 9:59 PM ET

Convicted political fixer Antoin "Tony" Rezko has been quietly visiting Chicago's federal courthouse, setting off speculation that he may be spilling secrets to prosecutors in return for a lenient sentence.

Prosecutors investigating Gov. Rod Blagojevich's administration would plainly like to hear what Rezko knows, and there is plenty of incentive to talk.

"Jail is horrible and Tony Rezko has just two options," says Jay Stewart, executive director of the Better Government Association. "One option is to do nothing and get a full sentence. The other is to cooperate with prosecutors."

Attorneys with knowledge of the government's investigation of corruption in state government say they are convinced the one-time key fundraiser for Democratic Gov. Rod Blagojevich and Sen. Barack Obama is either talking or about to do so.

Two attorneys said Monday they and other lawyers have been contacted by prosecutors seeking to check information that only Rezko could have told them. Both attorneys spoke only on condition of anonymity, saying prosecutors have sought to keep such matters secret as part of the grand jury investigation.

The Chicago Tribune reported Sunday that four lawyers claimed to the newspaper that they have been called by prosecutors with information from Rezko or his attorneys.

Rezko, 53, a one-time millionaire real estate developer and fast-food entrepreneur, raised funds for many Illinois politicians — more than $1 million for Blagojevich. And in return he became one of the governor's key advisers.

He also raised money for Obama's Illinois campaigns but not for his presidential bid. Obama has donated $159,000 in Rezko-related contributions to charity.

Rezko was convicted in June of mail fraud, wire fraud, attempted extortion and money laundering. Witnesses said he launched a scheme to get $7 million in payoffs from a contractor and a group of money management firms that were hoping to do business with state boards stacked with his political allies.

Some of the charges carry a maximum sentence of 20 years each.

Rezko attorney William Ziegelmueller declined to comment about the courthouse visits, and attorney Joseph Duffy, the lead counsel at Rezko's trial, did not immediately return a call from The Associated Press on Monday.

Rezko's sentencing on Oct. 28 comes only days before the presidential election. Republican rival John McCain has been running TV ads linking Obama to Rezko. But Obama's name surfaced only briefly at the trial and there was no evidence of wrongdoing on Obama's part.

Rezko also faces trial next year on charges of swindling General Electric Capital Corp. out of $10 million in the sale of a pizza business. The sheer size of the loss could send him to prison for many more years if he is convicted.

And Rezko is also facing allegations in Las Vegas that he failed to pay debts totaling almost $800,000 to three gambling casinos.

"If he is convicted of causing the loss of $10 million he is looking at a very high sentence and that obviously shifts a tremendous amount of leverage to the prosecution side — the only way to get out of that is to cooperate," said former federal prosecutor Anthony Barkow, now executive director of the Center for Administration of Criminal Law at New York University.

Rezko initially had been scheduled for sentencing Sept. 3 and U.S. District Judge Amy St. Eve repeatedly said she wanted to keep that date. But in late August she postponed the sentencing to Oct. 28 after defense lawyers said they needed more time to file post-trial motions.

At the same time, federal marshals began taking Rezko from the Metropolitan Correctional Center where he is being held to the courthouse where prosecutors have their offices, the attorneys and law enforcement officials who spoke to The AP said. The law enforcement officials also spoke on condition of anonymity because of the secrecy of grand jury proceedings.

They said he entered through a basement garage and went upstairs on a back elevator unseen by the public. But reports of his presence in the building quickly spread — and so did speculation that he might be willing to do an about-face.

The attorneys told the AP that Rezko may not have made a final agreement to talk but could have dangled information before prosecutors to coax them into making a deal.

If Rezko talks, what might he say about Blagojevich? Revelations about the governor drew much attention at Rezko's trial.

Political insider Ali Ata, who got his job as head of the Illinois Finance Authority from Blagojevich through Rezko, testified that the governor discussed hiring him after Ata put a $25,000 campaign contribution on the table.

The federal government has spent years investigating whether patronage jobs were handed out legally under Blagojevich, and Rezko might shed additional light.

Ata and two other political insiders, Stuart Levine and Joseph Cari, testified at Rezko's trial that Blagojevich hinted to them that they might profit by raising money for his future campaigns.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080930/...29NIPRt35H2ocA

Again, there is nothing in here condemning to Obama.... it is simply a hypothetical, hence being in the Paranoia thread. This is not meant to attack Obama {although I am sure some will see it as such}.... this is simply to see what you think could happen, if it would change your opinion and support for him and your thoughts IF at the October 28th date, or before, Razko cuts a deal and gives up some negative info on Obama.

Willravel · 09-29-2008, 09:41 PM

I won't vote for John McCain.

If something truly horrible, but more importantly something that was supported by verifiable evidence, came forward about Barack Obama, I'd vote for Brian Moore. He has some really interesting ideas.

Plan9 · 09-30-2008, 03:25 AM

What if Obama is the Manchurian Candidate?

abaya · 09-30-2008, 03:53 AM

Pardon my honesty, but you appear to be obsessed with this Rezko business, Pan.

Personally, there is nothing that will make me vote for McCain, absolutely nothing.

ASU2003 · 09-30-2008, 04:10 AM

I'm more interested in what the candidates will do in the next 4 years to make America a better place.

ratbastid · 09-30-2008, 04:16 AM

So we find out that Rezko not only set up a real estate transaction that was beneficial to Obama, but was also the head Goat Decapitator at Obama's secret underground satanic cabal coven of doom. Something like that? Something that irrevocably taints his candidacy and makes him un-voteable-for? I don't know, I guess I abstain. I'm not voting for McCain, and no third party candidate has my interest, really.
-----Added 30/9/2008 at 08 : 17 : 14-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASU2003

I'm more interested in what the candidates will do in the next 4 years to make America a better place.

YES, thank you. Forgive me in advance for any offense this might do to you, pan, but I find this question to be silly. But I guess that's what Paranoia is for.

murp0434 · 10-12-2008, 12:14 AM

I think it's an interesting question. The real point of the question, if i'm understanding you correctly, is this: have people committed their undying support to BO or is there still some room for mind-changing? Personally if Rezco came out with evidence that Obama murders puppies and steals medicine from old people while having gay sex with bin Laden I'd probably still vote Democratic b/c at the end of the day I have no views whatsoever in common with the Republican ticket and IMO everybody has a past (ie - "yes, I inhaled...that was the point" )

dc_dux · 10-12-2008, 08:08 AM

WHAT IF.....people stopped believing every lie or exaggeration about Obama that has been perpetrated by the McCain campaign, right wing media, and wing nut blogs?

Perhaps the country might have a better chance of coming together.

roachboy · 10-12-2008, 08:28 AM

why does this stuff have traction?
what explains it?

Tully Mars · 10-12-2008, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

why does this stuff have traction?
what explains it?

Really? What explains it?

Umm, you do know a large % of the folks running Camp McCain are the same folks that claimed he had an illegitimate black baby when they were running the Bush 00' US tour, right?

roachboy · 10-12-2008, 09:17 AM

that's more on the level of meme-generation--and yes, i know about that.
what i'm more curious about is the dispositions out there which are being played to--why it would be so intuitive, so easy, for some folk to believe absolutely nothing about obama. it's a peculiar kind of politics, if you think about it---the positions obama outlines can't be true because of doubts which speak to something or another as to his "character"---the questions of positions, of policies, of alternatives for the next 4 years gets evacuated with this move.

i continue to assume that people aren't simply fucking stupid (though sometimes i think that my assuming that people aren't stupid shows how stupid i am) and os have to be aware of how this move vaporizes the space for what one could call rational politically-oriented deliberation.

so i wonder why it has traction.
i have theories, of course, but not the time to run them out. and besides, i know my own theories about this and it'd be more interesting to read others.

Sun Tzu · 10-12-2008, 05:57 PM

It seems there is already enough about Obama that if it was going to do any damage it already would have.

McCain is just a shitty candidate following a president from the same party that will proably go down in history as one of the worst.

The republicans either dont seem to want to win, or arent meant to win.

That leaves a potential for far a left Executive Branch and Majority Legislative which may be just as bad as the situation we have now. While I think he can permenantly damage the country is some ways, there may be a flip side. As far as racism he may be able to inspire long needed healing on a national level which could pave the way for a better future in that regard.

McCain and hockey mom are just as scary.

I probably wont be voting for the first time.

pan6467 · 10-12-2008, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

YES, thank you. Forgive me in advance for any offense this might do to you, pan, but I find this question to be silly. But I guess that's what Paranoia is for.

That's why this is in "paranoia". Paranoia is "what if?" There doesn't have to even be true fact it is what it is and can be as silly and as serious as need be.

The problem at times unfortunately, is when one takes it seriously and "sees" the black copters..... and one says, "those are shadows" and treats it as silly.

To me, paranoia is a great "what if?" that we can allow creative juices to flow and just imagine.

I'm paranoid in some ways, conspiratorial in some ways, but that's just the way my mind works. Doesn't mean I truly believe, just means I like to pose the great "what if".
-----Added 13/10/2008 at 01 : 53 : 10-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by murp0434

I think it's an interesting question. The real point of the question, if i'm understanding you correctly, is this: have people committed their undying support to BO or is there still some room for mind-changing?

That is the real point.

Just like some fun questions for this forum could be:

How would you feel if Obama has Rev. Wright swear him in? Or has Rev. Wright, Rezco, Bill Ayres and Louis Farrakhan standing 1st row and at the inaugural ball?

If you believe in a "second secret" government that truly runs the country.... if they think Obama gets too "out there" in policies they will assassinate him? And if he is either by them or by just a nutcase will it lead to race riots?

Do you think if his presidency fails, this will hurt the chances of the next black running for president?

This presidency will inspire all kinds of great questions........ if he is as great as people believe and the Messiah Louis Farrakhan claims him to be.... then this will be a great 8 years.

If he is some puppet and truly radical this could be a most disastrous 2 years, before the GOP can get Congress back.... and IF they can.

Will he be a uniter and open to all suggestions and pick the best plans.... or will he "have something to prove" and be a divider working to destroy anyone who goes against him?

If he is a great uniter and the country becomes great again due to his programs and there is peace, will you admit you were wrong for disliking him?

If he is a divider and not what you believed him to be, will you regret electing him?

What if the nation pretty much stays as it is in his term, in your eyes did he accomplish anything?

In other words, this presidency will be either very fun to watch and the beginning of a great new period...... or a very ad tumultuous time that may cause irreparable damage.

We can prognosticate all we want, but no one here is going to truly know any outcome until it happens.

Tully Mars · 10-13-2008, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

i continue to assume that people aren't simply fucking stupid (though sometimes i think that my assuming that people aren't stupid shows how stupid i am) and os have to be aware of how this move vaporizes the space for what one could call rational politically-oriented deliberation.

Sorry, I gave up on believing voters aren't stupid. The fact we still have a two party system that continues to screw the general public I see as proof of that stupidity. Since I keep voting for one or the over I guess I'm stupid too.
-----Added 13/10/2008 at 07 : 49 : 46-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

It seems there is already enough about Obama that if it was going to do any damage it already would have.

McCain is just a shitty candidate following a president from the same party that will proably go down in history as one of the worst.

The republicans either dont seem to want to win, or arent meant to win.

That leaves a potential for far a left Executive Branch and Majority Legislative which may be just as bad as the situation we have now. While I think he can permenantly damage the country is some ways, there may be a flip side. As far as racism he may be able to inspire long needed healing on a national level which could pave the way for a better future in that regard.

McCain and hockey mom are just as scary.

I probably wont be voting for the first time.

But looking back on what McCain was saying in 2000- if he was still saying those things would you vote for him?

roachboy · 10-13-2008, 04:46 AM

pan---i don't know--the future is wide open. there are lots of possibilities, good and not so good and no way from here in october to know how things are going to play out.

what i think is that obama/biden are *more* likely to be able to adapt to a very rapidly changing global situation--which has lots of implications for the domestic situations--than is mc-cain/palin. this is based not only on looking at the policy directions which the obama camp has outlined, but also based on the ways in which the campaigns have worked. contrary to how the conservative press has presented people who support obama, even at a distance, i don't think obama will "save us"--i don't see the american political system as working in that way, even as it's presented as some bizarre form of monarchy by the television apparatus, which seems only capable of focus on celebrity and a monarch is a political celebrity. i think obama's plans are more rational than are mc-cains--and even if i had been inclined to support mc-cain, the actions of the campaign over the past 3 weeks would have put an end to that.

i don't see obama as a radical in any way.
but i think he's a better choice.

if you let yourself get sucked into the way the mc-cain camp has been trying to frame the election around personality and if you believe the way they've been desperately trying to get various associations to stick to a fiction of obama's personality that they create for their own purposes, then it seems to me that you are not in a position to think in political terms about this at all. you might as well watch e! entertainment news for your information about the world--and this from someone who does not particularly object to such things because i think that's what television in america does well--creates these curious little commodity individuals, follows them around, tells you what they're wearing. i don't think the people who work in television are incapable of doing more, but i think that in the main the medium has chosen a business model that tends to preclude it.

think of it this way: if you go down the personality route, then it increases anxiety because it increases a sense of risk because it collapses the entirety of a presidency onto speculation about personality. an administration is a collective. it fashions and tries to implement policy. what matters is the policy.

Cynosure · 10-13-2008, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASU2003

I'm more interested in what the candidates will do in the next 4 years to make America a better place.

Aren't we all? But Pan, here, wants us to play a "what if" game. You know, think hypothetically.
-----Added 13/10/2008 at 09 : 42 : 29-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

WHAT IF.....people stopped believing every lie or exaggeration about Obama that has been perpetrated by the McCain campaign, right wing media, and wing nut blogs?

Perhaps the country might have a better chance of coming together.

After the past eight years, can you blame people for being extremely distrustful of politicians and wary of their political spins, their self-interest supporting misinformation, and their outright lies?
-----Added 13/10/2008 at 09 : 55 : 23-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

I won't vote for John McCain.

If something truly horrible, but more importantly something that was supported by verifiable evidence, came forward about Barack Obama, I'd vote for Brian Moore. He has some really interesting ideas.

Ditto. Or if not Moore, then someone else. (I wouldn't be keen on voting for someone in the so called "Socialist" party.) But not McCain. And not just because he's a Republican, who will bring more of the same crap we've been suffering from the Bush administration, but also because I think McCain is a selfish weasel who will do most anything to win the election.

Sun Tzu · 10-13-2008, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

Sorry, I gave up on believing voters aren't stupid. The fact we still have a two party system that continues to screw the general public I see as proof of that stupidity. Since I keep voting for one or the over I guess I'm stupid too.
-----Added 13/10/2008 at 07 : 49 : 46-----

But looking back on what McCain was saying in 2000- if he was still saying those things would you vote for him?

Its his demeanor more than anything. Either he really is starting to lose his senses, he has a terrible campaign team, or he is not listening to them. I am a Ron Paul supporter and you saw how well they got along in the primaries. I dont think either of the candidates are addressing what I consider the root of the problems.

Deltona Couple · 10-14-2008, 07:14 AM

Personally, to be honest, I don't really give a rats ass WHAT the politicians have done in the past. what I care about is what they will do in the future. Now I know that what people do in the past can influence their choices later on, but c-mon, do you REALLY think that if Bill Clinton KNEW he was gonna be president, that he would have taken the chance of smoking pot? When we are younger we do stupid things. There have been studies, and I know I can't cite specific passages because it has been too long since I read them, but the fact is that people in their younger years(under 21) do not have the same chemical ballance in their brains for intelligent decision making as those who are much older. I will look and see if I can find any supporting articles for this. Anyway, as we are younger we experiment, that is a part of life, trying something and seeing if it works for us. Granted some things tried happen to be illegal substances...lol. But this goes to maturing and learning from mistakes. I would rather vote for someone who made a few mistakes in life, and was confronted with them, than a person who has grown up "perfect" and never made a mistake in their entire life, for I would call BS on that person and say that they just never got caught...lol

ASU2003 · 10-14-2008, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynosure

Aren't we all? But Pan, here, wants us to play a "what if" game. You know, think hypothetically.

So, let's say that they find out that Obama was a member of the weather underground in his teens...I would probably be in the same place I am now. Same thing if McCain was a KKK member or killed some innocent Vietnamese or something. That kind of stuff just doesn't effect me.

What would effect me is if they found out that a large corporation was able to 'buy' their vote when it wasn't in the favor of the people. Or if their history of dealing with foreign threats isn't the best. (Why doesn't McCain ask the question, "Would you [Obama] have met with Saddam Hussain in 2003 without preconditions? What would that accomplish?)

09-30-2008, 03:25 AM	#3 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	What if Obama is the Manchurian Candidate? __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

09-30-2008, 03:53 AM	#4 (permalink)
abaya Location: Iceland	Pardon my honesty, but you appear to be obsessed with this Rezko business, Pan. Personally, there is nothing that will make me vote for McCain, absolutely nothing. __________________ And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran

10-12-2008, 12:14 AM	#7 (permalink)
murp0434 Crazy Location: East Texas	I think it's an interesting question. The real point of the question, if i'm understanding you correctly, is this: have people committed their undying support to BO or is there still some room for mind-changing? Personally if Rezco came out with evidence that Obama murders puppies and steals medicine from old people while having gay sex with bin Laden I'd probably still vote Democratic b/c at the end of the day I have no views whatsoever in common with the Republican ticket and IMO everybody has a past (ie - "yes, I inhaled...that was the point" ) __________________ These are the good old days. How did I become upright?

10-12-2008, 08:08 AM	#8 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	WHAT IF.....people stopped believing every lie or exaggeration about Obama that has been perpetrated by the McCain campaign, right wing media, and wing nut blogs? Perhaps the country might have a better chance of coming together. __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire

10-12-2008, 08:28 AM	#9 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	why does this stuff have traction? what explains it? __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-29-2008, 09:41 PM	#2 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I won't vote for John McCain. If something truly horrible, but more importantly something that was supported by verifiable evidence, came forward about Barack Obama, I'd vote for Brian Moore. He has some really interesting ideas.

09-30-2008, 04:10 AM	#5 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	I'm more interested in what the candidates will do in the next 4 years to make America a better place.

10-12-2008, 09:17 AM	#11 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	that's more on the level of meme-generation--and yes, i know about that. what i'm more curious about is the dispositions out there which are being played to--why it would be so intuitive, so easy, for some folk to believe absolutely nothing about obama. it's a peculiar kind of politics, if you think about it---the positions obama outlines can't be true because of doubts which speak to something or another as to his "character"---the questions of positions, of policies, of alternatives for the next 4 years gets evacuated with this move. i continue to assume that people aren't simply fucking stupid (though sometimes i think that my assuming that people aren't stupid shows how stupid i am) and os have to be aware of how this move vaporizes the space for what one could call rational politically-oriented deliberation. so i wonder why it has traction. i have theories, of course, but not the time to run them out. and besides, i know my own theories about this and it'd be more interesting to read others. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

10-12-2008, 05:57 PM	#12 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	It seems there is already enough about Obama that if it was going to do any damage it already would have. McCain is just a shitty candidate following a president from the same party that will proably go down in history as one of the worst. The republicans either dont seem to want to win, or arent meant to win. That leaves a potential for far a left Executive Branch and Majority Legislative which may be just as bad as the situation we have now. While I think he can permenantly damage the country is some ways, there may be a flip side. As far as racism he may be able to inspire long needed healing on a national level which could pave the way for a better future in that regard. McCain and hockey mom are just as scary. I probably wont be voting for the first time. __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking*

10-13-2008, 04:46 AM	#15 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	pan---i don't know--the future is wide open. there are lots of possibilities, good and not so good and no way from here in october to know how things are going to play out. what i think is that obama/biden are more likely to be able to adapt to a very rapidly changing global situation--which has lots of implications for the domestic situations--than is mc-cain/palin. this is based not only on looking at the policy directions which the obama camp has outlined, but also based on the ways in which the campaigns have worked. contrary to how the conservative press has presented people who support obama, even at a distance, i don't think obama will "save us"--i don't see the american political system as working in that way, even as it's presented as some bizarre form of monarchy by the television apparatus, which seems only capable of focus on celebrity and a monarch is a political celebrity. i think obama's plans are more rational than are mc-cains--and even if i had been inclined to support mc-cain, the actions of the campaign over the past 3 weeks would have put an end to that. i don't see obama as a radical in any way. but i think he's a better choice. if you let yourself get sucked into the way the mc-cain camp has been trying to frame the election around personality and if you believe the way they've been desperately trying to get various associations to stick to a fiction of obama's personality that they create for their own purposes, then it seems to me that you are not in a position to think in political terms about this at all. you might as well watch e! entertainment news for your information about the world--and this from someone who does not particularly object to such things because i think that's what television in america does well--creates these curious little commodity individuals, follows them around, tells you what they're wearing. i don't think the people who work in television are incapable of doing more, but i think that in the main the medium has chosen a business model that tends to preclude it. think of it this way: if you go down the personality route, then it increases anxiety because it increases a sense of risk because it collapses the entirety of a presidency onto speculation about personality. an administration is a collective. it fashions and tries to implement policy. what matters is the policy. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

10-14-2008, 07:14 AM	#18 (permalink)
Deltona Couple Addict Location: Spring, Texas	Personally, to be honest, I don't really give a rats ass WHAT the politicians have done in the past. what I care about is what they will do in the future. Now I know that what people do in the past can influence their choices later on, but c-mon, do you REALLY think that if Bill Clinton KNEW he was gonna be president, that he would have taken the chance of smoking pot? When we are younger we do stupid things. There have been studies, and I know I can't cite specific passages because it has been too long since I read them, but the fact is that people in their younger years(under 21) do not have the same chemical ballance in their brains for intelligent decision making as those who are much older. I will look and see if I can find any supporting articles for this. Anyway, as we are younger we experiment, that is a part of life, trying something and seeing if it works for us. Granted some things tried happen to be illegal substances...lol. But this goes to maturing and learning from mistakes. I would rather vote for someone who made a few mistakes in life, and was confronted with them, than a person who has grown up "perfect" and never made a mistake in their entire life, for I would call BS on that person and say that they just never got caught...lol __________________ "It is not that I have failed, but that I have found 10,000 ways that it DOESN'T work!" --Thomas Edison