Jesus - fake or real?
 

I want to believe (thank you preacher), but I just can't. I think that humans have great imaginations. I think that Jesus could have been based on something real at one point (genetic anomoly?), but now its just an urban legend.

I'd like to think its just some hermit up in the clouds...

Might have been a real human being at some point in time. No way the son of god, prophet or what have you.

I'm not sure if I follow what you're asking.

Are you asking if the person of Jesus who the stories are (loosely) based on existed? In that case, I would say the chances are very good that he did.

Or are you asking if Jesus as described in the Christian bible existed and continues to exist? In that case, it's all a matter of faith, but there's no logical reason to believe that being ever existed.

The historical Jesus and the mythological Jesus are two different entities, and neither needs the other to be viable.

There's very little extra-Biblical evidence for Jesus. If you don't believe in the Bible, you don't really have any reason to believe that it was based on a Jesus. It was probably just a combination of old myths and a particular man named Apollonius of Tyana (virgin birth, healer, raised dea, walk through walls, persecuted, brought to trial, crucified, rose from the dead and ascended to heaven... sound familiar?).

I believe Jesus existed. I believe he was a buddha. Do I believe it is the immaculately concepted son of the almighty? No.

I think Christianity is over 90% appropriation of pagan myths, practices, and beliefs.

Jesus may have existed. I don't see why not. But he only exists now as a cultural phenomenon. Even Aristotle exists, and Shakespeare, in similar fashions. They are a part of our culture and will have meaning for a very long time.

I don't believe in deities.

I could answer the poll question if you used the word 'did' instead of 'does.'

do I think he lived? yes
do I think he lives on? no

For the most part, I agree with everyone. I meant the question to be does he still exist now as a deity of sorts, which I do not believe. As for did he once exist, perhaps, but I have no way to know for sure and feel like it doesn't really matter.

I kind of feel the same way about dinosaurs ...

I agree with the general consensus. There is simply no valid reason to believe in Jesus as anything more than (possibly) some guy with one hell of a cult following.

You should see the people outside our apartment.

I believe. I seem to be of the minority, but that's cool with me. I have felt Him in a way I could never fully describe with words.

I am a very sexual and very spiritual person, although many people would say that's an oxymoron.

I cannot deny what I have felt, what I have seen, the personal miracles of my own life; but I do know that there are people all over the world that "feel" their Gods in a spiritual way, that have witnessed "miracles" and believe in their religion because of these things.

I will make a statement that many would say contradicts Christianity: I believe that there is a God and that anyone truly seeking God will find Him/Her, I believe that only way for ME to reach God is through Jesus Christ, however I also believe that others may reach God through other means.

Am I correct, I don't know, but I do know I will follow the inner feelings that I have and trust them as they have kept me safe for years and given me peace at my darkest hours.

Without my belief in Jesus I can guarantee I would have taken my own life a long time ago, if that's the only purpose He serves, than it is a worthwhile one, IMO.

You seriously don't think dinosaurs exist? What's up with that? :orly:

As for did he once exist, perhaps, but I have no way to know for sure and feel like it doesn't really matter.

Meaning, they probably did, but it doesn't really matter to me. In other words, as far as Jesus or the Dinosaurs ever existing, I don't care.

ipollux:

I see, I miss read.

Yeah, I don't think dinosaurs matter much to me either or at all actually, except that you have to learn about them in school, but I digress.

This pretty much sums it up for me. I believe he existed and was probably smarter than the average bear. I don't believe in the immaculate conception, the resurrection, or the turning water into wine stuff.

To me the Bible has a much historical truth as the Odyessy written by Homer.

Jesus = Santa Clause . . . IMO

The idea of God in general regardless of which religion has become dangerous and threatens humanity as a whole. Not from the idea of God itself, but the actions motivating perceived "truth".

**EDIT*** I had a video posted showing that was shot by a British film crew in Israel in 2006. While the video itself was extremely interesting; it had a website at the end of it. I did not check out the site in the numerous times I watched the video. I finally did check it out after posting it here. It turned out to be a white supremist / racial hate site. If anyone watched the video and took enough interest to follow to the site, I appologize. That does not represent my views or the point I was making in posting this example.

God is dead, and no one cares. If there is a hell, I'll see you there.

I see your Heresy by Nine Inch Nails

and raise you Closer By Nine Inch Nails

"I wanna f**k you like an animal
My whole existence is flawed
You get me closer to God"

That happens to be one of my favorite songs actually!

Yes Jesus is very real.

Thank you.

Wow, Sun Tzu, that video really speaks volumes about how the belief in God (in this case represented by Jesus) can take on numerous, sometimes horrendous faces. Knowing there are people out there like that, be them drunk or not, is really quite frightening and completely ruins any points using the "X population believes in Jesus" argument.

Not that it proves anything about the existence of Christ, just commenting.

I once followed way of the gourd, but now I believe the shoe is the righteous path to salvation.

The scriptures are clear:

"He has given us... his shoe! The shoe is the sign. Let us follow His example. Let us, like Him, hold up one shoe and let the other be upon our foot, for this is His sign, that all who follow Him shall do likewise. The shoe is a sign that we must gather shoes together in abundance.

Let us gather shoes together! It is a sign that, like Him, we must think not of the things of the body, but of the face and head!

Give me your shoe! Hold up the sandal, as He has commanded us! Take the shoes and follow Him!"

Not believing a deity exists makes absolutely no difference to the deity. The idea of a deity is something that does NOT exist, at least in any we can understand.

It's kind of like asking if karma exists.

Or the old joke about religion.

One man asks the other if wants to go to a Sunday service.

The other says, "I don't believe in the church's doctrines".

The first man says, "oh, I've actually SEEN them, I can assure you, they do exist."

Do you believe in homosexual marriage? It's happening in California, so you would be wrong if you didn't.

Do you believe in get quick rich schemes? They exist every day in your e-mail inbox.

Do you believe in corporal punishment? Even some public schools still practice it.

Not so sure about that one.

Corporal punishment may be very much akin to Jesus Christ.
Both existed...at one time...but not any longer.

Come to the deep south. Misbehave.

Whappity whap.

Seconded.

That's awesome that out of nowhere a coalition of believers voted. Praise god! Hallelujah!

</sarcasm>

ipollux, don't be sarcastic about believers. I believe, I have, and I have one of them high falootin private college edumacations.

This belief is not at odds with TFP. Halx buit a great community at absolute odds to what I think. Tecoyah and Charlatan and so many others offer such great direction and help at this site that I'd be a fool to dis them. They're great.

What does that have to do with me? Nothing. I think I have some ideas worth expressing, but I'm not the omnipresent force here. Am I happy here? You betcha. Am I responsible for management? No.

Who built your neighborhood?

Honest apologies. I realize opinions can be expressed without using condescending sarcasm--sometimes I get carried away.

I don't believe in things. There's what's true, what's false, what we don't know yet, and what we can't know. I'm not concerned with the last category because belief takes up valuable time and brain power that can be dedicated to facts.

Evidence that I've seen points to a man who is remembered and referred to as "Jesus" in modern English having existed around two thousand years ago, but not much verifiable beyond that. I doubt that anything verifiable will come up to change what I think, and I doubt that evidence or lack thereof will change the mind of people who concern themselves with belief.

Sure Jesus lived,died and came back to life 3 days later...just like the Bible predicted he would do it.
Being the Son of God ,he had the power and God had a plan for all of Mankind to live forever in his
heaven IF we believed in JESUS and GOD. Sounds like I believe the HOLY BIBLE doesn't it? There
are too many things in the Bible that are true NOT to believe it. (Another thing: What if I am right
and non-believers are WRONG ? )

why aren't there "both" or "neither" options in the poll?

Ummm, Ron, no offense intended at all, but the Bible wasn't written when Jesus died. The Old Testament was, but not one single word of the New Testament was.

And if you're right and non-believers are wrong, Heaven's going to be a comparatively empty place, what with all the Hundi's, Bhuddists and whatnot that have ever lived and died. Not to mention the Mormons.

If the Bible is right, I think Jesus is shady. For more information on why, read my blog. But in short, it's because that means he's sending good, innocent people who've never been exposed to him or have, but like all of us have no proof of his existence, to suffer for an eternity.

So, Ron, when you say stuff like what if you're right and non-believers are wrong, you make it sound like you're playing it safe. As if just in case it's true, you're going to play along. Well, something like that's not going to control how I live my life.

I will enthusiastically state, I do my very best not judge others or their beliefs. The obvious motivation for this being the many faults I carry sober me of doing so. Even in debates where I am totally the opposite in beliefs, I strive to understand why other side sees they way they do. When it comes to this topic, I will admittingly confess that minor frustration sets in. Not enough to ever down someone for their spiritual beliefs, but to suggest research. I am a former Christian that saw atheists as lost souls; shaking my head with a “if they only knew” attitude. I saw advice to research history outside the Bible as either a waste of time or in some cases the devil trying to influence me. After all what more did I need other than the Bible. After years of research applying critical thought and several visits to Israel with an archeologist; I began to fully understand a diiferent acceptance. When the interest of science and quantum physics took hold, it was the last push to where I am today.

That is, I don’t know what God is. There is currently nothing other than the Bible that suggests (or Koran) that the reality we now know, (the laws of physics and other displines of science) will someday cascade to a permanent supernatural exsistence when the Mesiah returns in a light of heavenly glory. There is nothing to suggest that humanity deserves to keep this planet if it doesn’t use the evolved tool it has- the brain to stop blaming its shortcomings on a central unseen force that instigates the motivation of what this civilization (in its many facets) has determined as being “evil”. I don’t know what god is, but when I look at the universe in its majestic span of time- I cant help but think that whatever, if there is a supreme creator of something of this magnitude, its very arrogant to think that there is anything “we” simple carbon based beings on this tiny speck of dust could do anything that would offend it.


There is plenty that offends us though. Think about what one single thing has caused more wars than anything else in history.
Whether you do or don’t, I will still suggest that you research how the Bible was written. If you do, also keep in mind these were men; human beings writing from stories and accounts passed down. Not from words burnt into rock of metal from a scientifically unknown source left as an enigma, but writings just like mythology. While if you ever decide to venture down this path; finding your own sources is the best here are examples:

Christian Texts

Dating Early Christian Gospels

from jesus to christ: the first christians: from hebrew bible to christian bible

Bibliography of some of the Bible research resources used by BibleTexts


Christianity, The Bible

That's string betting. ;)

I don't think he ever did. There are very few historical records that mention his name as a person at all, and those that do are considered very questionable.

I will say though, that the existence of Jesus Christ is probably one of the least questionable thing Christians believe.

Yes, but all the things about his birth,death and resurrection were written in
the OLD Testament hundreds of years before Jesus was born. That's what I
was writing about.:)

It's because there is no evidence to support the resurrection and the life everlasting, but that's where faith comes in. Christians take it on as a matter of faith, nothing more nothing less. Jesus himself said that there is no way we can understand it or understand God's plans, as we are mere mortals and if we could understand it all, it would make God and Jesus rather unnecessary.

Why don't you think that we, a bunch of vulgar and hate-filled creatures, could offend a supreme diety with what we do everyday? War, hate, genocide, murder, theft, adultery, dishonesty, those would sure offend me.

A couple of questions: are you of the belief that humans are born "tainted with sin", or do you think that new born babies are truly innocent?


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Would you find it more an aspect of faith than a calculated statisic that there is other intellegent life in the vastness of the known universe (not even our own Milky Way, but the whole)


Ive been to the garden tomb several times, the only physical anomoly I found was a piece of a metal rod within the rock that used to hold the stone door in place. It had been sheared. The tour guides did not mention for some reason. While some people would see that as something left by an angel that came down and flung the gate open, I see it as a metal rod that used to be there. Other than that; there is nothing else. The faith of millions is based on a writing that was written by MEN who say they were inspired by God, and then edited several times after that.

Athanasius of Alexandria and men (and I do mean men- women were not part of this editing process) like him have dictated what millions place their faith in.

Book of Adam and Eve, Book of Jubilees, Book of Enoch, Infancy Gospel of Thomas, Proto-Gospel of James, Gnostic Scriptures of Nag Hammadi, Gospel of Mary, Gospel of Nicodemus, Apocalypse of Peter, so on and so on . . . what are your thoughts on them? Have you ever read them, any of them?

My answers in bold.

Newborn babies . . . sinners. . . Even when I was a devoted Christian, the question of why a loving God would allow babies to be born with deformities and suffering was always present. The answers: it is God’s will, or who are we to question the choices of God never set with me. The way I looked at is if God gave us such a developed brain to think and apply logic then it should only be natural to be inquisitive. But such a process brings the reader straight back to the first story- why we are looked upon as “sinners” in the first place- because of knowledge. Therefore the quest for knowledge is what dammed us all in the first place, right? Control. Take elements such as logic, reason, and “the bible tells me so and set them aside; can you really look at the babies below or any baby for that matter and in your heart really believe they are sinners? Beings that have absolutely no experience in life, have not done anything to anyone, and have only taken their first breaths of life.
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For me it is not even a faith issue. The size of the universe we can visually see is so immense that IMO other life is a certainty. The universe is also a chaotic place. We see gamma bursts happening every night. If one of those happened anywhere near our solar system it would destroy all the life on this planet. Do you think a gamma burst that takes out a civilization is evil? Or is it how chaos ran its course?

At least we can be comforted that God will never destroy the life on Earth by WATER again. Although no promise is ever made about fire breathing harpies raining down upon is. Although I don’t think people living in Indonesia, Sri Lanka, India, and Thailand gave much faith to that promise. I wonder how many Christians spent Christmas in that part of the world in 2004.



Napoleon died and is longer here, Henry the VIII died and is longer among us, Einstein died and isn’t around anymore. I have no doubt they existed, neither is there controversy as to whether or not they walked the Earth. You obviously didn’t watch the third clip so Ill post it again. While I disagree with some of the writings of Fleming; he presents honest and fair questions. You didn’t watch the third clip perhaps you can provide some insight to what is being asked here.




I said edited. The literary work people read in the present is the result of generations of stories and accounts of gospels that have been edited, chopped, deleted according to what they saw as being important. Let’s assume the Bible had more to it than Homer’s Odyssey; it seems in the course of all of the decision making to create philosophies people are going to live by, no one was paying attention to Revelation 22:18. Followers of Joseph Smith’s writings better hope John was only talking about his project and not the whole collection huh?



If you value the Bible especially the New Testament, then it is a safe bet you value what you perceive as the preaching’s of Jesus Christ. Then you should find great importance in the Apocryphon. The reason you haven’t read them is because the editors that were doing the picking and choosing didn’t want you to read them. They were lost for a very long time for a reason. But they’re here now. The issue is they have as much foundation for being the philosophies of Yeshua as the edited works known as the New Testament. The real problem is if you do read them you are going to find the message differs from what is taught from King James.



Then the Jews have it worse over everyone huh? This is where the Church really did an effective number on millions. Athanasius and others like him have provided the dictations under which God’s influence will reign. The Apocalypse of Peter states everyone will be saved. Everyone. This kind of philosophy would drastically change the way people would have lived their lives. The concept of being forgiven and saved even if you go to hell for a few hundred years would have meant the sinful living did not carry a permanent sentence with it. Hell is eventually going to be empty according to this Gospel. Such information would have taken control away from the early church. What does being saved really mean anyway?




Kind of like the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland? The Crusades? The Inquisition? I agree that it is an important message: Lau Tzu was saying it 600 years before the speculated time Yeshua was even born, and he wasn’t even doing miracles.

I'm with you on this one.
It comes down to the while factual existence of a man.
Verses the supernatural existence of a higher being.

for a long time now, i've thought jesus is much more myth than fact. my current best guess is that there is someone who inspired the jesus character (possibly named joshua, but more likely Apollonius of Tyana or some forgotten person from their recent past). i think, considering the lack of non-biblical evidence, it's more likely that paul created jesus out of myths/religions of the mediterranian and mesopotamian areas. maybe he believed what he was saying, maybe he was trying to make himself rich and influential (although, failing on the rich part, from what i understand). if sufficient outside evidence is found, i'd be happy to change my opinion (although i doubt you'd ever get me to believe in a jesus-god), but for now i doubt his historicity.

Yeah... Jesus washed dishes at my old restaurant. Nice guy. He was saving money so he could bring his mom, wife and three kids up to the States.

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I do not pretend to know who got it all right. I can only rely on my own faith, and hope that in the end it's right. For all I know, or any of us can know, ALL religions on earth are wrong. I have my own faith, you have yours. In the end, that's all that we can do -- the beauty of free will.

Knowledge was my point. From the start we are taught that knowledge is sin, and yet given the hormones, instincts, and curious minds to discover the world around us.

Atreides if I sounded too aggressive or sarcastic, I apologize. As I stated I am a former Christian with a large number of Christian friends. We have learned not to debate much less even discuss it. I had to learn to respect their beliefs if I still wanted to maintain a friendship with them & vice versa. The strongest aspect that helps in this process was to at least be happy for their connection in their perception of God. I’m not a total atheist, but more of an agnostic with a belief there may be a grand creator. I just don't know and won't until I die. Faith can be something to hold on to when all else seems to be at its lowest. Without faith that a God will come down and clean up this mess we call modern society, the only thing left is faith that we will somehow get it right.

I also hope that there is something more than just the blink of an eye we spend in a lifetime. From a physics stand point the body is energy and energy has to go somewhere. Beyond that I won’t know until it happens. I’d like to think that someday in the future, our Earth unites with a common focus on space exploration.

I’ll never knock anyone for their faith, but will respectfully suggest to remember what they are reading was written and edited many times over by human beings. I might have a different view if some sort of tablets were still around that had writing burnt into them by a force that was beyond what any modern scientific testing could explain. I could no longer carry faith that at some point the Earth would be elevated into a supernatural existence for eternity.

One last comment about what you stated at the end: what if all religions are wrong. It doesn’t seem like a big deal, right. I won’t go into here, but as I continue to observe how things are unfolding in the world I’m left with a disturbing thought. Regardless of whether or not the Bible is historically accurate the powers that be (humans) appear to be helping it along. Imagine if religions were wrong and the end is brought about by our own doing. All that would be left is a dead planet. Life will still go on in the vastness of the universe. If business does continue as usual and we waste this precious gift with the notion a father figure Supreme Being is going to come clean up our mess- do we really deserve it in the first place?

Apology accepted; and there are no hurt feelings. The sin wasn't the knowledge gained, though. The knowledge was a by-product of violating the Lord's command. That's just what I've gathered from reading the Bible and from what I've learned from various religious scholars I've known. I've never been told that knowledge is evil -- what we do with that knowledge can be -- but knowledge in and of itself is not. The only people who I've seen consistently decry learning about the world and universe around us are the fanatical Christian Right, those same people who take the Bible as 100% solid fact and nothing else is right. I find that an ignorant and close-minded approach to religion. I personally cannot take a book written by man but inspired by the Holy Word, as 100% right, there is error built in simply because it was written by humans.

As for whether God is going to clean up this mess, I can't tell you. I'm of the opinion that God doesn't interfere all that often; I'm sort of a Deist in that way. I think we all recognize and strive to be a part of the eternal part of the universe, that thing that we all sense as being larger than ourselves. Some see it as God, others as Thor and Odin, and still others see it as Shiva and the other Hindu gods. I honestly believe all world religions are simply a different take on the same thing and everybody just sees it through their own tinted spectacles.

As for your final question, I don't think we would deserve it, but God has other plans, and again, I cannot understand His reasoning, all I can do trust Him or I can turn away and spent eternity away from his presence in Hell. Until that point, the important thing is to live our lives as best as we can and treat eachother with civility. As for getting it right, I think that any religion that stresses the fact that every human being has a spiritual aspect and that we must try to follow the Golden Rule as well as we can has gotten it right.

When I was younger, I tried to believe. I grew up in a religiously mixed family of catholics and lutherans, my parents rarely went to church, then was the issue of deciding which to attend. So, I ventured off on my own as a teenager trying to sort out what was my god, did he exist. I would tag along with various friends to their churches respectfully wishing to grasp onto what they believed. Feeling that it is only right to believe in God after all. As time passed, I finally came to accept that I cannot grasp onto what I fail to see evidenced. It also frankly tore me up to see people spout off about their churches and then me to sit back and watch while they did things that I thought would have been very un-christian things. Then again, they all did say that we are all sinners. In the end I haven't found anything in my search. Unsure if it is simply the lack of finding the church that fit me best, or do I just fail to believe.

The short version, I will go ahead and go out the chicken route and say that I refer to myself as Agnostic.

I have read many of these books and several others that you did not mention. I believe in God and I believe Jesus is the path that I must follow to get there. I can not have my beliefs shaken. I have studied many different religions and many aspects of Christianity.

There are several things about other religions that interest and intrigue me and there are several issues about Christianity that I feel curious and skeptical about.

But the bottom line is I do believe Jesus existed, I do believe He is part of God, I do believe He died so that my sins can be forgiven and I do believe He is in heaven and His spirit speaks to me. I have felt His presence in my soul, I have hear His voice in my heart, I have seen the future through His guides, I have witnessed His power, I believe and I always will and that I cannot deny.

Now are there other ways to heaven, for me no, but maybe for someone else there is. Are babies destined for Hell, I don't believe they are. Was Jesus every married, probably, but it doesn't affect my foundational religious beliefs one bit. Did he have children, probably. Was Mary a virgin, I am not too sure on that one. Do I believe she could have been if God wanted her to be, yep, does that mean she was, nope. Don't know and again, doesn't affect my foundational beliefs.

Let's all be happy that in most places of our world we can choose our religion or chose to reject religion without persecution and let us feel saddened for those who do not have those choices in their lives.

What is your thought on the primary question raised in this short clip?




???????

As for mistranslation, the bible has been validated by the dead sea scrolls. The religion spread via the great commission that Christ bestowed upon his apostles before he ascended into heaven. Roman documents validate his crucifixion. He was the only prophet from any world religion to claim to be the son of God, and since then Christianity has been twisted into a shadow of it's former. If you believe in Jesus, then you'll read the bible, cover to cover. The transformation that one goes through while taking this journey is immensely epic. Yes, i believe in Jesus.

i'm going to have to respectfully disagree with everything you just said. for info on mistranslations and copying errors present in the bible, check out "misquoting jesus." it's a good source of easily understandable info (ie. not written in the academic tounge). if you could provide a link/source that shows that the dead sea scrolls validate the bible, i'd appreciate that.

to my knowledge, there is no roman documentation of jesus' crucifixition. if you've got a source for that, i'd like to know what it is.

and claiming to be the son of god was not new in biblical times (see hercules, thor, various egyptian/mesopotamian gods). even if he were the only one to have ever made that claim, that doesn't make him right.

i met a girl recently who, a bit after finding out about my jewish background, told me, "no offense intended", but she couldn't understand why people were still jewish since it was a historical fact that jesus lived, was the son of god, and ascended to heave 3 days after being crucified. but she then changed the subject since she didn't want to talk about it because it could cause an argument. so i never got what her historical proof was.

could any one show me legitimate historical evidence/proof (big or small) that jesus was a real, historical person, let alone the son of god?

You people have no sense of humor.

Sure he was real but not what people seem to think he was. I am guessing he was most likely just someone with a whole lot of charisma. Charisma can make people do and think almost anything under the right conditions. Look at what it did for Adolf Hitler. He just told people what they needed to hear and gave them someone to blame all the problems they were having on. Gave the german people a answer and a way out of the trouble they were having. And brought His country up from a depression into a world power. Basicly what jesus seems to have done. Gave people the answer they were looking for.

Assuming there is a god of some sort I really doubt they/he/she/it would have used that single person to get the message across that one time. As god they would have limitless power to do whatever it takes. With all the wars that have happened over religion over the last few thousand years i really doubt jesus is the one true answer to all the questions people have.

In a way it upsets me that people of all faiths claim to know as a fact things that no one could possibly know. For all we know god could be a child in a classroom and the universe as we know it is nothing but a petree dish and we are part of a experment. just waiting to see what happens. Maybe the universe is exactly how god wants it down to the smallest detail. Being all powerful and all knowing i would say that would be a good chance but in that case why is there so much war based over different faiths. I really doubt they would make all these people that dont agree just to have them fight over it for thousands of years.

So sure jesus was real but he was just some guy. No more the son of god then anyone else on the planet. I don't believe any organized religion has all the answers or even most of the answers. Think the best bet is to just do what you feel is the right thing to do and have faith that if there is a god they made you the way your supposed to be and everyone else the way they are supposed to be. Religion seems to want to force everyone to believe the exact same thing if the answers are right or not. People having blind faith in a book such as the bible without even knowing who wrote it is just silly. Too many people read them like they are the answer and rules to everything instead of what it really is. Just a collection of ideas and thoughts put together by people from a few thousand years ago.

I look at it this way: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That Jesus is the son of God, performed many miracles, predicted Judas' betrayal, rose from the dead, and ascended to Heaven is a lot to take in.

It's a lot like the claims that ET visits Earth regularly, abducts people and performs experiments on them, is in cahoots of some sort with our world governments, and so forth.

And people say, "Where is the evidence? Where is the alien technology? Why are all the photographs blurry, the videos shaky and fuzzy, and the witnesses almost always isolated?" But there's the thing: The witnesses. We have thousands of them across the decades (if you count back from the alleged crash in Roswell in 1947). And these witnesses cross the spectrum from lone wingnuts to pillars of the community who have nothing to gain and everything to lose by telling their stories. We have everyone from farmers, to airline pilots, to military personnel, to law enforcement, to little old ladies describing phenomena with common elements. The sheer depth and breadth of these accounts is such that they cannot be explained away by delusion, hallucination, misinterpretation, or deception.

And such is the case with supernatural and preternatural phenomena. Except with these, the accounts go back *thousands* of years. Anyone who is more than passingly familiar with the work of Ed and Lorraine Warren (or Malachi Martin, or Dave Considine) has to wonder. I used to be firmly secular, until I came across their work. I consider myself an educated and rational person. I used to get into protracted arguments with people who said God was real, and that Jesus was an authentic historical figure.

There are, certainly, lots of problems with the Bible: inconsistent claims, contradictory chronology, mistranslation, homophobia, sexism. I don't know what to make of it. And it's selectively interpreted in modern times -- we endeavor to abide by the Ten Commandments, but we discard most of the teachings of Leviticus, like stoning people who don't keep the sabbath holy, and refraining from pork and alcohol. There are rules in Leviticus that no reasonable person would follow.

In fact, the line from secularity to faith can't easily be drawn with the Bible. The Warrens make a better argument, perhaps, by way of relating their encounters with "evil." I put that in quotes because their claims are far more extraordinary than what you'll hear from any UFO witness. They see things and hear things that cannot be explained by science, or even basic logic. They see things that can't even be explained by possible ghost or poltergeist phenomena.

But while the phenomena they claimed to have encountered is extremely unpredictable, there is a common thread: Invoking Jesus always makes these entities recoil. Holy water makes them recoil. In the New Testament, Jesus specifically granted his apostles the ability to repel demonic forces, and to do so in his name.

If you are firmly secular like I was, then this probably sounds like a load of bunkum. And you may have heard of Ed and Lorraine Warren from the stories of the Amityville Horror. But I'll bet you haven't heard of and their bizarre experiences. It gets off to a rough start, in terms of suspension of disbelief, but I think it's worth the read. You can check out a bunch of sample pages on http://books.google.com/books?id=0qscomSDhcoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+demonologist.

I can't say that the book has me rushing to church, but I'm no longer snug and comfortable with my previous agnostic/atheist views. Yeah, the narrative of the Bible reads like a mixture of pre-existing beliefs, and the narrative of the life of Jesus is one that history had already told in dozens of different nations and languages. But now, instead of assuming plagiarism or lack of originality, I find myself wondering if there isn't another reason why his story keeps cropping up.