Jesus - fake or real? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

hannukah harry · 07-28-2008, 01:08 PM

for a long time now, i've thought jesus is much more myth than fact. my current best guess is that there is someone who inspired the jesus character (possibly named joshua, but more likely Apollonius of Tyana or some forgotten person from their recent past). i think, considering the lack of non-biblical evidence, it's more likely that paul created jesus out of myths/religions of the mediterranian and mesopotamian areas. maybe he believed what he was saying, maybe he was trying to make himself rich and influential (although, failing on the rich part, from what i understand). if sufficient outside evidence is found, i'd be happy to change my opinion (although i doubt you'd ever get me to believe in a jesus-god), but for now i doubt his historicity.

World's King · 08-02-2008, 10:48 AM

Yeah... Jesus washed dishes at my old restaurant. Nice guy. He was saving money so he could bring his mom, wife and three kids up to the States.

ipollux · 08-04-2008, 05:27 PM

Atreides88 · 08-04-2008, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Newborn babies . . . sinners. . . Even when I was a devoted Christian, the question of why a loving God would allow babies to be born with deformities and suffering was always present. The answers: it is God’s will, or who are we to question the choices of God never set with me. The way I looked at is if God gave us such a developed brain to think and apply logic then it should only be natural to be inquisitive. But such a process brings the reader straight back to the first story- why we are looked upon as “sinners” in the first place- because of knowledge. Therefore the quest for knowledge is what dammed us all in the first place, right? Control. Take elements such as logic, reason, and “the bible tells me so and set them aside; can you really look at the babies below or any baby for that matter and in your heart really believe they are sinners? Beings that have absolutely no experience in life, have not done anything to anyone, and have only taken their first breaths of life.

Technically, the original sin was defying God's will, i.e. eating from the tree of knowledge when told not to. If you think about it, we are then ultimately responsible for our own suffering as Adam and Eve lived in bliss -- as God had intended -- until they ate from the tree and learned of shame, pain, etc.

For me it is not even a faith issue. The size of the universe we can visually see is so immense that IMO other life is a certainty. The universe is also a chaotic place. We see gamma bursts happening every night. If one of those happened anywhere near our solar system it would destroy all the life on this planet. Do you think a gamma burst that takes out a civilization is evil? Or is it how chaos ran its course?

At least we can be comforted that God will never destroy the life on Earth by WATER again. Although no promise is ever made about fire breathing harpies raining down upon is. Although I don’t think people living in Indonesia, Sri Lanka, India, and Thailand gave much faith to that promise. I wonder how many Christians spent Christmas in that part of the world in 2004.

I do not pretend to understand God's will or plan. I am but a mortal man, and as such cannot begin to fathom it. I do not worry about it. I simply accept that I am saved by Grace through faith, and that I cannot understand it. I can only try to live my life the best I can and ask for forgiveness for all of my sins.

Napoleon died and is longer here, Henry the VIII died and is longer among us, Einstein died and isn’t around anymore. I have no doubt they existed, neither is there controversy as to whether or not they walked the Earth. You obviously didn’t watch the third clip so Ill post it again. While I disagree with some of the writings of Fleming; he presents honest and fair questions. You didn’t watch the third clip perhaps you can provide some insight to what is being asked here.

I said edited. The literary work people read in the present is the result of generations of stories and accounts of gospels that have been edited, chopped, deleted according to what they saw as being important. Let’s assume the Bible had more to it than Homer’s Odyssey; it seems in the course of all of the decision making to create philosophies people are going to live by, no one was paying attention to Revelation 22:18. Followers of Joseph Smith’s writings better hope John was only talking about his project and not the whole collection huh?

If you value the Bible especially the New Testament, then it is a safe bet you value what you perceive as the preaching’s of Jesus Christ. Then you should find great importance in the Apocryphon. The reason you haven’t read them is because the editors that were doing the picking and choosing didn’t want you to read them. They were lost for a very long time for a reason. But they’re here now. The issue is they have as much foundation for being the philosophies of Yeshua as the edited works known as the New Testament. The real problem is if you do read them you are going to find the message differs from what is taught from King James.

Then the Jews have it worse over everyone huh? This is where the Church really did an effective number on millions. Athanasius and others like him have provided the dictations under which God’s influence will reign. The Apocalypse of Peter states everyone will be saved. Everyone. This kind of philosophy would drastically change the way people would have lived their lives. The concept of being forgiven and saved even if you go to hell for a few hundred years would have meant the sinful living did not carry a permanent sentence with it. Hell is eventually going to be empty according to this Gospel. Such information would have taken control away from the early church. What does being saved really mean anyway?

Kind of like the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland? The Crusades? The Inquisition? I agree that it is an important message: Lau Tzu was saying it 600 years before the speculated time Yeshua was even born, and he wasn’t even doing miracles.

I do not pretend to know who got it all right. I can only rely on my own faith, and hope that in the end it's right. For all I know, or any of us can know, ALL religions on earth are wrong. I have my own faith, you have yours. In the end, that's all that we can do -- the beauty of free will.

Sun Tzu · 08-05-2008, 02:33 AM

Knowledge was my point. From the start we are taught that knowledge is sin, and yet given the hormones, instincts, and curious minds to discover the world around us.

Atreides if I sounded too aggressive or sarcastic, I apologize. As I stated I am a former Christian with a large number of Christian friends. We have learned not to debate much less even discuss it. I had to learn to respect their beliefs if I still wanted to maintain a friendship with them & vice versa. The strongest aspect that helps in this process was to at least be happy for their connection in their perception of God. I’m not a total atheist, but more of an agnostic with a belief there may be a grand creator. I just don't know and won't until I die. Faith can be something to hold on to when all else seems to be at its lowest. Without faith that a God will come down and clean up this mess we call modern society, the only thing left is faith that we will somehow get it right.

I also hope that there is something more than just the blink of an eye we spend in a lifetime. From a physics stand point the body is energy and energy has to go somewhere. Beyond that I won’t know until it happens. I’d like to think that someday in the future, our Earth unites with a common focus on space exploration.

I’ll never knock anyone for their faith, but will respectfully suggest to remember what they are reading was written and edited many times over by human beings. I might have a different view if some sort of tablets were still around that had writing burnt into them by a force that was beyond what any modern scientific testing could explain. I could no longer carry faith that at some point the Earth would be elevated into a supernatural existence for eternity.

One last comment about what you stated at the end: what if all religions are wrong. It doesn’t seem like a big deal, right. I won’t go into here, but as I continue to observe how things are unfolding in the world I’m left with a disturbing thought. Regardless of whether or not the Bible is historically accurate the powers that be (humans) appear to be helping it along. Imagine if religions were wrong and the end is brought about by our own doing. All that would be left is a dead planet. Life will still go on in the vastness of the universe. If business does continue as usual and we waste this precious gift with the notion a father figure Supreme Being is going to come clean up our mess- do we really deserve it in the first place?

Atreides88 · 08-05-2008, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Knowledge was my point. From the start we are taught that knowledge is sin, and yet given the hormones, instincts, and curious minds to discover the world around us.

Atreides if I sounded too aggressive or sarcastic, I apologize. As I stated I am a former Christian with a large number of Christian friends. We have learned not to debate much less even discuss it. I had to learn to respect their beliefs if I still wanted to maintain a friendship with them & vice versa. The strongest aspect that helps in this process was to at least be happy for their connection in their perception of God. I’m not a total atheist, but more of an agnostic with a belief there may be a grand creator. I just don't know and won't until I die. Faith can be something to hold on to when all else seems to be at its lowest. Without faith that a God will come down and clean up this mess we call modern society, the only thing left is faith that we will somehow get it right.

I also hope that there is something more than just the blink of an eye we spend in a lifetime. From a physics stand point the body is energy and energy has to go somewhere. Beyond that I won’t know until it happens. I’d like to think that someday in the future, our Earth unites with a common focus on space exploration.

I’ll never knock anyone for their faith, but will respectfully suggest to remember what they are reading was written and edited many times over by human beings. I might have a different view if some sort of tablets were still around that had writing burnt into them by a force that was beyond what any modern scientific testing could explain. I could no longer carry faith that at some point the Earth would be elevated into a supernatural existence for eternity.

One last comment about what you stated at the end: what if all religions are wrong. It doesn’t seem like a big deal, right. I won’t go into here, but as I continue to observe how things are unfolding in the world I’m left with a disturbing thought. Regardless of whether or not the Bible is historically accurate the powers that be (humans) appear to be helping it along. Imagine if religions were wrong and the end is brought about by our own doing. All that would be left is a dead planet. Life will still go on in the vastness of the universe. If business does continue as usual and we waste this precious gift with the notion a father figure Supreme Being is going to come clean up our mess- do we really deserve it in the first place?

Apology accepted; and there are no hurt feelings. The sin wasn't the knowledge gained, though. The knowledge was a by-product of violating the Lord's command. That's just what I've gathered from reading the Bible and from what I've learned from various religious scholars I've known. I've never been told that knowledge is evil -- what we do with that knowledge can be -- but knowledge in and of itself is not. The only people who I've seen consistently decry learning about the world and universe around us are the fanatical Christian Right, those same people who take the Bible as 100% solid fact and nothing else is right. I find that an ignorant and close-minded approach to religion. I personally cannot take a book written by man but inspired by the Holy Word, as 100% right, there is error built in simply because it was written by humans.

As for whether God is going to clean up this mess, I can't tell you. I'm of the opinion that God doesn't interfere all that often; I'm sort of a Deist in that way. I think we all recognize and strive to be a part of the eternal part of the universe, that thing that we all sense as being larger than ourselves. Some see it as God, others as Thor and Odin, and still others see it as Shiva and the other Hindu gods. I honestly believe all world religions are simply a different take on the same thing and everybody just sees it through their own tinted spectacles.

As for your final question, I don't think we would deserve it, but God has other plans, and again, I cannot understand His reasoning, all I can do trust Him or I can turn away and spent eternity away from his presence in Hell. Until that point, the important thing is to live our lives as best as we can and treat eachother with civility. As for getting it right, I think that any religion that stresses the fact that every human being has a spiritual aspect and that we must try to follow the Golden Rule as well as we can has gotten it right.

Ayashe · 08-08-2008, 02:28 PM

When I was younger, I tried to believe. I grew up in a religiously mixed family of catholics and lutherans, my parents rarely went to church, then was the issue of deciding which to attend. So, I ventured off on my own as a teenager trying to sort out what was my god, did he exist. I would tag along with various friends to their churches respectfully wishing to grasp onto what they believed. Feeling that it is only right to believe in God after all. As time passed, I finally came to accept that I cannot grasp onto what I fail to see evidenced. It also frankly tore me up to see people spout off about their churches and then me to sit back and watch while they did things that I thought would have been very un-christian things. Then again, they all did say that we are all sinners. In the end I haven't found anything in my search. Unsure if it is simply the lack of finding the church that fit me best, or do I just fail to believe.

The short version, I will go ahead and go out the chicken route and say that I refer to myself as Agnostic.

Milkyway · 08-08-2008, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Book of Adam and Eve, Book of Jubilees, Book of Enoch, Infancy Gospel of Thomas, Proto-Gospel of James, Gnostic Scriptures of Nag Hammadi, Gospel of Mary, Gospel of Nicodemus, Apocalypse of Peter, so on and so on . . . what are your thoughts on them? Have you ever read them, any of them?

I have read many of these books and several others that you did not mention. I believe in God and I believe Jesus is the path that I must follow to get there. I can not have my beliefs shaken. I have studied many different religions and many aspects of Christianity.

There are several things about other religions that interest and intrigue me and there are several issues about Christianity that I feel curious and skeptical about.

But the bottom line is I do believe Jesus existed, I do believe He is part of God, I do believe He died so that my sins can be forgiven and I do believe He is in heaven and His spirit speaks to me. I have felt His presence in my soul, I have hear His voice in my heart, I have seen the future through His guides, I have witnessed His power, I believe and I always will and that I cannot deny.

Now are there other ways to heaven, for me no, but maybe for someone else there is. Are babies destined for Hell, I don't believe they are. Was Jesus every married, probably, but it doesn't affect my foundational religious beliefs one bit. Did he have children, probably. Was Mary a virgin, I am not too sure on that one. Do I believe she could have been if God wanted her to be, yep, does that mean she was, nope. Don't know and again, doesn't affect my foundational beliefs.

Let's all be happy that in most places of our world we can choose our religion or chose to reject religion without persecution and let us feel saddened for those who do not have those choices in their lives.

Sun Tzu · 08-09-2008, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milkyway

I have read many of these books and several others that you did not mention. I believe in God and I believe Jesus is the path that I must follow to get there. I can not have my beliefs shaken. I have studied many different religions and many aspects of Christianity.

There are several things about other religions that interest and intrigue me and there are several issues about Christianity that I feel curious and skeptical about.

But the bottom line is I do believe Jesus existed, I do believe He is part of God, I do believe He died so that my sins can be forgiven and I do believe He is in heaven and His spirit speaks to me. I have felt His presence in my soul, I have hear His voice in my heart, I have seen the future through His guides, I have witnessed His power, I believe and I always will and that I cannot deny.

Now are there other ways to heaven, for me no, but maybe for someone else there is. Are babies destined for Hell, I don't believe they are. Was Jesus every married, probably, but it doesn't affect my foundational religious beliefs one bit. Did he have children, probably. Was Mary a virgin, I am not too sure on that one. Do I believe she could have been if God wanted her to be, yep, does that mean she was, nope. Don't know and again, doesn't affect my foundational beliefs.

Let's all be happy that in most places of our world we can choose our religion or chose to reject religion without persecution and let us feel saddened for those who do not have those choices in their lives.

What is your thought on the primary question raised in this short clip?

???????

airdreamlove · 08-17-2008, 11:00 AM

As for mistranslation, the bible has been validated by the dead sea scrolls. The religion spread via the great commission that Christ bestowed upon his apostles before he ascended into heaven. Roman documents validate his crucifixion. He was the only prophet from any world religion to claim to be the son of God, and since then Christianity has been twisted into a shadow of it's former. If you believe in Jesus, then you'll read the bible, cover to cover. The transformation that one goes through while taking this journey is immensely epic. Yes, i believe in Jesus.

hannukah harry · 08-17-2008, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airdreamlove

As for mistranslation, the bible has been validated by the dead sea scrolls. The religion spread via the great commission that Christ bestowed upon his apostles before he ascended into heaven. Roman documents validate his crucifixion. He was the only prophet from any world religion to claim to be the son of God, and since then Christianity has been twisted into a shadow of it's former. If you believe in Jesus, then you'll read the bible, cover to cover. The transformation that one goes through while taking this journey is immensely epic. Yes, i believe in Jesus.

i'm going to have to respectfully disagree with everything you just said. for info on mistranslations and copying errors present in the bible, check out "misquoting jesus." it's a good source of easily understandable info (ie. not written in the academic tounge). if you could provide a link/source that shows that the dead sea scrolls validate the bible, i'd appreciate that.

to my knowledge, there is no roman documentation of jesus' crucifixition. if you've got a source for that, i'd like to know what it is.

and claiming to be the son of god was not new in biblical times (see hercules, thor, various egyptian/mesopotamian gods). even if he were the only one to have ever made that claim, that doesn't make him right.

i met a girl recently who, a bit after finding out about my jewish background, told me, "no offense intended", but she couldn't understand why people were still jewish since it was a historical fact that jesus lived, was the son of god, and ascended to heave 3 days after being crucified. but she then changed the subject since she didn't want to talk about it because it could cause an argument. so i never got what her historical proof was.

could any one show me legitimate historical evidence/proof (big or small) that jesus was a real, historical person, let alone the son of god?

World's King · 08-20-2008, 06:56 PM

You people have no sense of humor.

Plaid13 · 08-21-2008, 05:45 PM

Sure he was real but not what people seem to think he was. I am guessing he was most likely just someone with a whole lot of charisma. Charisma can make people do and think almost anything under the right conditions. Look at what it did for Adolf Hitler. He just told people what they needed to hear and gave them someone to blame all the problems they were having on. Gave the german people a answer and a way out of the trouble they were having. And brought His country up from a depression into a world power. Basicly what jesus seems to have done. Gave people the answer they were looking for.

Assuming there is a god of some sort I really doubt they/he/she/it would have used that single person to get the message across that one time. As god they would have limitless power to do whatever it takes. With all the wars that have happened over religion over the last few thousand years i really doubt jesus is the one true answer to all the questions people have.

In a way it upsets me that people of all faiths claim to know as a fact things that no one could possibly know. For all we know god could be a child in a classroom and the universe as we know it is nothing but a petree dish and we are part of a experment. just waiting to see what happens. Maybe the universe is exactly how god wants it down to the smallest detail. Being all powerful and all knowing i would say that would be a good chance but in that case why is there so much war based over different faiths. I really doubt they would make all these people that dont agree just to have them fight over it for thousands of years.

So sure jesus was real but he was just some guy. No more the son of god then anyone else on the planet. I don't believe any organized religion has all the answers or even most of the answers. Think the best bet is to just do what you feel is the right thing to do and have faith that if there is a god they made you the way your supposed to be and everyone else the way they are supposed to be. Religion seems to want to force everyone to believe the exact same thing if the answers are right or not. People having blind faith in a book such as the bible without even knowing who wrote it is just silly. Too many people read them like they are the answer and rules to everything instead of what it really is. Just a collection of ideas and thoughts put together by people from a few thousand years ago.

Johnny Rotten · 08-27-2008, 12:09 PM

I look at it this way: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That Jesus is the son of God, performed many miracles, predicted Judas' betrayal, rose from the dead, and ascended to Heaven is a lot to take in.

It's a lot like the claims that ET visits Earth regularly, abducts people and performs experiments on them, is in cahoots of some sort with our world governments, and so forth.

And people say, "Where is the evidence? Where is the alien technology? Why are all the photographs blurry, the videos shaky and fuzzy, and the witnesses almost always isolated?" But there's the thing: The witnesses. We have thousands of them across the decades (if you count back from the alleged crash in Roswell in 1947). And these witnesses cross the spectrum from lone wingnuts to pillars of the community who have nothing to gain and everything to lose by telling their stories. We have everyone from farmers, to airline pilots, to military personnel, to law enforcement, to little old ladies describing phenomena with common elements. The sheer depth and breadth of these accounts is such that they cannot be explained away by delusion, hallucination, misinterpretation, or deception.

And such is the case with supernatural and preternatural phenomena. Except with these, the accounts go back *thousands* of years. Anyone who is more than passingly familiar with the work of Ed and Lorraine Warren (or Malachi Martin, or Dave Considine) has to wonder. I used to be firmly secular, until I came across their work. I consider myself an educated and rational person. I used to get into protracted arguments with people who said God was real, and that Jesus was an authentic historical figure.

There are, certainly, lots of problems with the Bible: inconsistent claims, contradictory chronology, mistranslation, homophobia, sexism. I don't know what to make of it. And it's selectively interpreted in modern times -- we endeavor to abide by the Ten Commandments, but we discard most of the teachings of Leviticus, like stoning people who don't keep the sabbath holy, and refraining from pork and alcohol. There are rules in Leviticus that no reasonable person would follow.

In fact, the line from secularity to faith can't easily be drawn with the Bible. The Warrens make a better argument, perhaps, by way of relating their encounters with "evil." I put that in quotes because their claims are far more extraordinary than what you'll hear from any UFO witness. They see things and hear things that cannot be explained by science, or even basic logic. They see things that can't even be explained by possible ghost or poltergeist phenomena.

But while the phenomena they claimed to have encountered is extremely unpredictable, there is a common thread: Invoking Jesus always makes these entities recoil. Holy water makes them recoil. In the New Testament, Jesus specifically granted his apostles the ability to repel demonic forces, and to do so in his name.

If you are firmly secular like I was, then this probably sounds like a load of bunkum. And you may have heard of Ed and Lorraine Warren from the stories of the Amityville Horror. But I'll bet you haven't heard of

the book about the Warrens

and their bizarre experiences. It gets off to a rough start, in terms of suspension of disbelief, but I think it's worth the read. You can check out a bunch of sample pages on http://books.google.com/books?id=0qscomSDhcoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+demonologist.

I can't say that the book has me rushing to church, but I'm no longer snug and comfortable with my previous agnostic/atheist views. Yeah, the narrative of the Bible reads like a mixture of pre-existing beliefs, and the narrative of the life of Jesus is one that history had already told in dozens of different nations and languages. But now, instead of assuming plagiarism or lack of originality, I find myself wondering if there isn't another reason why his story keeps cropping up.

07-28-2008, 01:08 PM	#41 (permalink)
hannukah harry Junkie	for a long time now, i've thought jesus is much more myth than fact. my current best guess is that there is someone who inspired the jesus character (possibly named joshua, but more likely Apollonius of Tyana or some forgotten person from their recent past). i think, considering the lack of non-biblical evidence, it's more likely that paul created jesus out of myths/religions of the mediterranian and mesopotamian areas. maybe he believed what he was saying, maybe he was trying to make himself rich and influential (although, failing on the rich part, from what i understand). if sufficient outside evidence is found, i'd be happy to change my opinion (although i doubt you'd ever get me to believe in a jesus-god), but for now i doubt his historicity. __________________ shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

08-02-2008, 10:48 AM	#42 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	Yeah... Jesus washed dishes at my old restaurant. Nice guy. He was saving money so he could bring his mom, wife and three kids up to the States. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

08-05-2008, 02:33 AM	#45 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	Knowledge was my point. From the start we are taught that knowledge is sin, and yet given the hormones, instincts, and curious minds to discover the world around us. Atreides if I sounded too aggressive or sarcastic, I apologize. As I stated I am a former Christian with a large number of Christian friends. We have learned not to debate much less even discuss it. I had to learn to respect their beliefs if I still wanted to maintain a friendship with them & vice versa. The strongest aspect that helps in this process was to at least be happy for their connection in their perception of God. I’m not a total atheist, but more of an agnostic with a belief there may be a grand creator. I just don't know and won't until I die. Faith can be something to hold on to when all else seems to be at its lowest. Without faith that a God will come down and clean up this mess we call modern society, the only thing left is faith that we will somehow get it right. I also hope that there is something more than just the blink of an eye we spend in a lifetime. From a physics stand point the body is energy and energy has to go somewhere. Beyond that I won’t know until it happens. I’d like to think that someday in the future, our Earth unites with a common focus on space exploration. I’ll never knock anyone for their faith, but will respectfully suggest to remember what they are reading was written and edited many times over by human beings. I might have a different view if some sort of tablets were still around that had writing burnt into them by a force that was beyond what any modern scientific testing could explain. I could no longer carry faith that at some point the Earth would be elevated into a supernatural existence for eternity. One last comment about what you stated at the end: what if all religions are wrong. It doesn’t seem like a big deal, right. I won’t go into here, but as I continue to observe how things are unfolding in the world I’m left with a disturbing thought. Regardless of whether or not the Bible is historically accurate the powers that be (humans) appear to be helping it along. Imagine if religions were wrong and the end is brought about by our own doing. All that would be left is a dead planet. Life will still go on in the vastness of the universe. If business does continue as usual and we waste this precious gift with the notion a father figure Supreme Being is going to come clean up our mess- do we really deserve it in the first place? __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking*

08-20-2008, 06:56 PM	#52 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	You people have no sense of humor. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

08-27-2008, 12:09 PM	#54 (permalink)
Johnny Rotten lost and found Location: Berkeley	I look at it this way: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. That Jesus is the son of God, performed many miracles, predicted Judas' betrayal, rose from the dead, and ascended to Heaven is a lot to take in. It's a lot like the claims that ET visits Earth regularly, abducts people and performs experiments on them, is in cahoots of some sort with our world governments, and so forth. And people say, "Where is the evidence? Where is the alien technology? Why are all the photographs blurry, the videos shaky and fuzzy, and the witnesses almost always isolated?" But there's the thing: The witnesses. We have thousands of them across the decades (if you count back from the alleged crash in Roswell in 1947). And these witnesses cross the spectrum from lone wingnuts to pillars of the community who have nothing to gain and everything to lose by telling their stories. We have everyone from farmers, to airline pilots, to military personnel, to law enforcement, to little old ladies describing phenomena with common elements. The sheer depth and breadth of these accounts is such that they cannot be explained away by delusion, hallucination, misinterpretation, or deception. And such is the case with supernatural and preternatural phenomena. Except with these, the accounts go back thousands of years. Anyone who is more than passingly familiar with the work of Ed and Lorraine Warren (or Malachi Martin, or Dave Considine) has to wonder. I used to be firmly secular, until I came across their work. I consider myself an educated and rational person. I used to get into protracted arguments with people who said God was real, and that Jesus was an authentic historical figure. There are, certainly, lots of problems with the Bible: inconsistent claims, contradictory chronology, mistranslation, homophobia, sexism. I don't know what to make of it. And it's selectively interpreted in modern times -- we endeavor to abide by the Ten Commandments, but we discard most of the teachings of Leviticus, like stoning people who don't keep the sabbath holy, and refraining from pork and alcohol. There are rules in Leviticus that no reasonable person would follow. In fact, the line from secularity to faith can't easily be drawn with the Bible. The Warrens make a better argument, perhaps, by way of relating their encounters with "evil." I put that in quotes because their claims are far more extraordinary than what you'll hear from any UFO witness. They see things and hear things that cannot be explained by science, or even basic logic. They see things that can't even be explained by possible ghost or poltergeist phenomena. But while the phenomena they claimed to have encountered is extremely unpredictable, there is a common thread: Invoking Jesus always makes these entities recoil. Holy water makes them recoil. In the New Testament, Jesus specifically granted his apostles the ability to repel demonic forces, and to do so in his name. If you are firmly secular like I was, then this probably sounds like a load of bunkum. And you may have heard of Ed and Lorraine Warren from the stories of the Amityville Horror. But I'll bet you haven't heard of the book about the Warrens the book about the Warrens and their bizarre experiences. It gets off to a rough start, in terms of suspension of disbelief, but I think it's worth the read. You can check out a bunch of sample pages on http://books.google.com/books?id=0qscomSDhcoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+demonologist. I can't say that the book has me rushing to church, but I'm no longer snug and comfortable with my previous agnostic/atheist views. Yeah, the narrative of the Bible reads like a mixture of pre-existing beliefs, and the narrative of the life of Jesus is one that history had already told in dozens of different nations and languages. But now, instead of assuming plagiarism or lack of originality, I find myself wondering if there isn't another reason why his story keeps cropping up. __________________ "The idea that money doesn't buy you happiness is a lie put about by the rich, to stop the poor from killing them." -- Michael Caine

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No	37	52.86%
Voters: 70. You may not vote on this poll

08-08-2008, 02:28 PM	#47 (permalink)
Ayashe Psycho	When I was younger, I tried to believe. I grew up in a religiously mixed family of catholics and lutherans, my parents rarely went to church, then was the issue of deciding which to attend. So, I ventured off on my own as a teenager trying to sort out what was my god, did he exist. I would tag along with various friends to their churches respectfully wishing to grasp onto what they believed. Feeling that it is only right to believe in God after all. As time passed, I finally came to accept that I cannot grasp onto what I fail to see evidenced. It also frankly tore me up to see people spout off about their churches and then me to sit back and watch while they did things that I thought would have been very un-christian things. Then again, they all did say that we are all sinners. In the end I haven't found anything in my search. Unsure if it is simply the lack of finding the church that fit me best, or do I just fail to believe. The short version, I will go ahead and go out the chicken route and say that I refer to myself as Agnostic.

08-17-2008, 11:00 AM	#50 (permalink)
airdreamlove Upright	As for mistranslation, the bible has been validated by the dead sea scrolls. The religion spread via the great commission that Christ bestowed upon his apostles before he ascended into heaven. Roman documents validate his crucifixion. He was the only prophet from any world religion to claim to be the son of God, and since then Christianity has been twisted into a shadow of it's former. If you believe in Jesus, then you'll read the bible, cover to cover. The transformation that one goes through while taking this journey is immensely epic. Yes, i believe in Jesus.

08-21-2008, 05:45 PM	#53 (permalink)
Plaid13 I want a Plaid crayon	Sure he was real but not what people seem to think he was. I am guessing he was most likely just someone with a whole lot of charisma. Charisma can make people do and think almost anything under the right conditions. Look at what it did for Adolf Hitler. He just told people what they needed to hear and gave them someone to blame all the problems they were having on. Gave the german people a answer and a way out of the trouble they were having. And brought His country up from a depression into a world power. Basicly what jesus seems to have done. Gave people the answer they were looking for. Assuming there is a god of some sort I really doubt they/he/she/it would have used that single person to get the message across that one time. As god they would have limitless power to do whatever it takes. With all the wars that have happened over religion over the last few thousand years i really doubt jesus is the one true answer to all the questions people have. In a way it upsets me that people of all faiths claim to know as a fact things that no one could possibly know. For all we know god could be a child in a classroom and the universe as we know it is nothing but a petree dish and we are part of a experment. just waiting to see what happens. Maybe the universe is exactly how god wants it down to the smallest detail. Being all powerful and all knowing i would say that would be a good chance but in that case why is there so much war based over different faiths. I really doubt they would make all these people that dont agree just to have them fight over it for thousands of years. So sure jesus was real but he was just some guy. No more the son of god then anyone else on the planet. I don't believe any organized religion has all the answers or even most of the answers. Think the best bet is to just do what you feel is the right thing to do and have faith that if there is a god they made you the way your supposed to be and everyone else the way they are supposed to be. Religion seems to want to force everyone to believe the exact same thing if the answers are right or not. People having blind faith in a book such as the bible without even knowing who wrote it is just silly. Too many people read them like they are the answer and rules to everything instead of what it really is. Just a collection of ideas and thoughts put together by people from a few thousand years ago.

08-04-2008, 05:27 PM	#43 (permalink)
ipollux Crazy