David Bowie is a good song writer but not a good musician... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

KnifeMissile · 05-09-2005, 12:58 PM

I have been toying with this idea for a while now. I've heard We Can Be Heroes by the Wallflowers and I've heard The Man Who Sold the World by Nirvana and they are both excellent songs. Then I hear the original by David Bowie and I think "Hmm, it's okay but the other one was better."

So, my theory is that while David Bowie is a good song writer, he's not a great musician.

However, I really only have these two examples. Can anyone think of any other David Bowie cover songs? How do they compare to the original? Would you like to mention any other covers that are better than the original? Or should we save that for another thread...

Janey · 05-09-2005, 01:05 PM

On the other hand, I really prefer Bowie's take on the Rolling Stone's 'Let's Spend the Night Together' (Aladin Sane?). His delivery is more enjoyable for me.

Redlemon · 05-09-2005, 01:10 PM

Here's the list of his songs covered by others, as well as his covers: The Covers Project: David Bowie. I'd copy and paste, but there's a whole bunch of hidden text that I don't want to wade through and delete.

SiN · 05-09-2005, 01:19 PM

^ nice list, rl ...but incomplete. Bauhaus covered Ziggy Stardust ... for example.

vanblah · 05-09-2005, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KnifeMissile

So, my theory is that while David Bowie is a good song writer, he's not a great musician.

You have to remember the times that Bowie was recording these. Most of them were recorded way before the modern "slickly" produced versions of songs we are used to hearing.

Also, Bowie played a little saxophone on a few of his recordings; but he was mainly the singer rather than an instrumentalist. Very few people can match his phrasing.

vanblah · 05-09-2005, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SiN

^ nice list, rl ...but incomplete. Bauhaus covered Ziggy Stardust ... for example.

Which in my opinion at least is better than the original ...

Redlemon · 05-09-2005, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SiN

^ nice list, rl ...but incomplete. Bauhaus covered Ziggy Stardust ... for example.

Well, drop the guy an email, there's a link at the bottom of every page. It's all user-collected material, so it is only as good as its users.

roachboy · 05-09-2005, 01:41 PM

what are you taking (or not taking) into account when you decide a question like whether david bowie is or is not a "good musician" exactly?

anleja · 05-09-2005, 02:44 PM

Off topic, but that is a great site. I was thinking of making a cd compiled of Bob Dylan covers, this is perfect for that. (imagine the bloodshed if someone posted a Bob Dylan thread with the same topic as this one.)

K-Wise · 05-09-2005, 03:34 PM

Hmm I actually prefer his original compared to The Wallflowers version myself. Maybe I just have a bias because it's Bowie. Oh and Changes has been covered by damn near everybody and everybodies version sucks total ass compared to his.

Asta!!

Charlatan · 05-09-2005, 03:39 PM

I'd have to agree with K-Wise... nothing beats Bowie's Heroes... his version is *way* better than the Wallflowers.

I also love Bowie's Man Who Sold the World (not that I don't like Nirvana's version... it's a very good cover).

I would have to agree that that vast majority of Bowie's early work is not going to neccesarily appeal to those who have been weened on the music production of today...

In my mind, he is one of the few aging rock stars that remains remotely relevant...

K-Wise · 05-09-2005, 03:50 PM

^ Yeah I'll have to agree. I'm a bit of an old soul when it comes to music at times. I remember when I was a freshman we saw an astronaught video from the 70's and they were playing "Space Oddity" in the background and I started singing along and everyone looked at me like I was crazy.

Then one of my friends was like "How do you know that song?" I simply replied "My parents used to play it a lot for me when I was a kid." I don't think it was so much that the song was old though. I think it was that they just didn't care for it at all and thought it funny that I not only knew it, but actually liked it.

Here I'm thinking "How can you NOT like it?" I suppose if a band like Smashing Pumpkins covered it they'd love it.

Asta!!

Charlatan · 05-09-2005, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by K-Wise

Here I'm thinking "How can you NOT like it?" I suppose if a band like Smashing Pumpkins covered it they'd love it.

Asta!!

Exactly...

Rawb · 05-09-2005, 10:23 PM

Just as I browsed into this thread, on came a Bowie cover.

Right off of "The Life Aquatic" soundtrack, Seu Jorge - Life On Mars. Right now, I like it better than the original, but I think the fact that it is in Porteguse(sp) that makes it simpler to play in the background and still work to. Also, this guy has an awesome voice.

Charlatan · 05-10-2005, 04:21 AM

Rawb... the entire soundtrack of The Life Aquatic is either Bowie or Bowie covers...

d*d · 05-10-2005, 04:26 AM

David Bowie is a good song writer but not a good musician...

In your opinion, he is however a damn fine musician

Charlatan · 05-10-2005, 04:37 AM

Bowie has two covers on his recent album Heathen that aren't too bad... Neil Young's Winterlong and the Pixies Dress...

His cover of dress isn't nearly as good as the original but then I love the Pixies... it should be noted that the Pixies have done some of the best covers of songs ever.

Spektr · 05-10-2005, 05:45 AM

Saying that the Wallflowers did something better than David Bowie is like saying that bashing your testicles with a meat tenderizer promotes healthy cholesterol.

Charlatan · 05-10-2005, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spektr

Saying that the Wallflowers did something better than David Bowie is like saying that bashing your testicles with a meat tenderizer promotes healthy cholesterol.

......

roachboy · 05-10-2005, 06:59 AM

i would imagine that "low" and "heros" would be really difficult to cover, given the enoproduction that is all over both. more generally, now that i have stopped laughing at spektr's post, which says pretty much all i have to say but much better than i could manage, i still dont understand what the claim at the origin of the thread actually means. try writing pop hooksat all--it aint easy to do--if you manage that, try working a series of hook-based tunes into a cycle anything like the complexity of what bowie manages. put the results up and maybe then we'll see if there is or is not a link between musicianship in general and bowie's songwriting.

you might also think about--say--ziggy stardust in the context of the early 1970s. think about how the record is mixed, that it can be heard in two ways--one that emphasizes the beatles-like voicings on the chords, another that emphasizes the guitar sound that is worked in/through the changes and which takes the whole record to another place. it was a fine piece of glampop--it was alot more than a fine piece of glampop....and for all that, aladdin sane is better (particularly the woozy title track---particularly the piano part in that track, which thoroughly tweaked my brain as a 16 year old, when i first heard it).

i cant listen to much of what i thought was Important Music when i was in high school--bowie, a couple roxy music records, sometimes t rex--that's about it. at the time, i might have thought emerson lake and palmer--or (shudder) even rick wakeman to have been better "musicians" but i now find their stuff to be unlistenable. all this pseudo-19th century classical crap. but they had chops. is that what matters?

btw, you could say the same about nirvana as about the wallflowers.

aberkok · 05-11-2005, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KnifeMissile

So, my theory is that while David Bowie is a good song writer, he's not a great musician.

These are not different things in my opinion. Bowie's method of expression is songwriting, but maybe not playing. No musician is a master of every aspect of musicianship. I am willing to challenge anyone on that.

K-Wise · 05-11-2005, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spektr

Saying that the Wallflowers did something better than David Bowie is like saying that bashing your testicles with a meat tenderizer promotes healthy cholesterol.

Thats just golden

Asta!!

Dbass · 05-11-2005, 05:37 PM

Your thesis needs rewording. If Bowie wasn't an excellent musician, he wouldn't have a bloody clue what a good pop song required - chords, melody, rhythm - he would be writing 3 chord Ramones songs. Think about that. Then consider his vocal range - do you have the variety of tone colors he does at the extremes of your range? Not even you, but did Kurt from Nirvana, or Jakob Dylan? What you consider to be better musicianship is really your idea of better interpretation.
And to the Ramones fans, and all other people I've insulted today: The Ramones didn't write musical songs, they wrote catchy ones, and Nirvana and The Wallflowers stand alone as excellent bands, but the fact is that they weren't doing anything new while Bowie was, and they won't stand the test of time as singers or guitar players.

snowy · 05-11-2005, 10:46 PM

Bowie rocks.

To write the songs he's written and do the things he's done with rock music...that requires sheer talent AND balls of steel. The man is an adventurer in music--so many other artists cannot say the same. And those who try...they certainly don't pull it off with as much panache.

Mr.Deflok · 05-11-2005, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

Bowie rocks.

To write the songs he's written and do the things he's done with rock music...that requires sheer talent AND balls of steel. The man is an adventurer in music--so many other artists cannot say the same. And those who try...they certainly don't pull it off with as much panache.

Amen! I wish he'd stop touring and make another album... Having Heathen and Reality back to back was beautiful.

SiN · 05-13-2005, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redlemon

Well, drop the guy an email, there's a link at the bottom of every page. It's all user-collected material, so it is only as good as its users.

done.

and submitted another omission (the mention of Dylan in this thread instantly brought to mind Ministry's cover of Lay Lady Lay (great cover btw) and that wasn't there either).

Val_1 · 05-16-2005, 04:41 PM

One thing to remember is that music taste is quite subjective. The technical abilities of a musician does not dictate how much an individual will like it. Case in point, Bowie's original version of Heroes has one of the finest guitarists to ever grace God's green Earth playing on it: the almighty Robert Fripp. And the rest of the band is pretty good, too. While the Wallflowers, while good, are fairly mediocre musicians (I dig them too, they get the job done), however you you like the Wallflowers version better. Fine. Just a matter of taste. In the end, Bowie's a very good songwriter and a pretty darn competent musician.

flamingdog · 05-19-2005, 02:12 PM

If you know anything about music, you know that good songwriting IS good musicianship.

All the technical ability in the world can't help you if you don't know a hook, or the difference between a verse and a chorus and how to make the two hang together in the context of the individual song you're working on. Bowie, like a lot of legends, gets this right more than he gets it wrong.

Like pretty much any music legend, Bowie's done stuff I can really dig, and shit I wish he'd buried forever. I happen to love the Stone Temple Pilots cover of Andy Warhol, by the way. If you've not heard it, I recommend you track it down.

pinkie · 05-19-2005, 03:37 PM

Bowie rules, period.

anleja · 05-21-2005, 12:23 PM

Marilyn Manson performs a totally embarrassing version of "Golden Years." Oh man, it's bad, especially compared to the original.

Locobot · 05-31-2005, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy[B

]i would imagine that "low" and "heros" would be really difficult to cover, given the enoproduction that is all over both. [/B] more generally, now that i have stopped laughing at spektr's post, which says pretty much all i have to say but much better than i could manage, i still dont understand what the claim at the origin of the thread actually means. try writing pop hooksat all--it aint easy to do--if you manage that, try working a series of hook-based tunes into a cycle anything like the complexity of what bowie manages. put the results up and maybe then we'll see if there is or is not a link between musicianship in general and bowie's songwriting.

Eno didn't produce any of Low, it's a great rock myth, you have to give credit to Tony Visconti. Clearly though Eno's influence is all over the place on those records.

Bowie isn't the strongest guitarist, but he's pretty golden on every other insturment he touches. He is also a vocalist with few peers in the rock world. Not to mention he had the good taste to pick Mick Ronson and Robert Fripp to play guitar, not exactly slouches on six strings.

Nirvana · 07-05-2005, 04:18 PM

im not sure, but space oddity by david bowie is one of my favorite songs.

Johnny Pyro · 07-07-2005, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KnifeMissile

I have been toying with this idea for a while now. I've heard We Can Be Heroes by the Wallflowers and I've heard The Man Who Sold the World by Nirvana and they are both excellent songs. Then I hear the original by David Bowie and I think "Hmm, it's okay but the other one was better."

So, my theory is that while David Bowie is a good song writer, he's not a great musician.

However, I really only have these two examples. Can anyone think of any other David Bowie cover songs? How do they compare to the original? Would you like to mention any other covers that are better than the original? Or should we save that for another thread...

You're right! I think the same thing. All the bands that cover Bowie songs sound better. Good song writer. Okay musician. I heard the Nirvana version of "The Man who Sold the World," before Bowie's,.......Bowie's version wasn't really that good.

Charlatan · 07-07-2005, 12:49 PM

There is just no way that the Wallflower's version is anywhere near as good as the original of Heroes...

As for the man who sold the world? Both versions are good. Wouldn't pick one over the other...

muckluck · 07-12-2005, 07:29 PM

Woah on that The Covers Project site they say there is a Tool cover of Comfortably numb? Has anyone ever heard this, and is it good? Tool did an awesome cover of No Quarter. I can only imagine what a Pink Floyd cover by them sounds like.

05-09-2005, 12:58 PM	#1 (permalink)
KnifeMissile Location: Waterloo, Ontario	David Bowie is a good song writer but not a good musician... I have been toying with this idea for a while now. I've heard We Can Be Heroes by the Wallflowers and I've heard The Man Who Sold the World by Nirvana and they are both excellent songs. Then I hear the original by David Bowie and I think "Hmm, it's okay but the other one was better." So, my theory is that while David Bowie is a good song writer, he's not a great musician. However, I really only have these two examples. Can anyone think of any other David Bowie cover songs? How do they compare to the original? Would you like to mention any other covers that are better than the original? Or should we save that for another thread...

05-09-2005, 01:10 PM	#3 (permalink)
Redlemon Devoted Donor Location: New England	Here's the list of his songs covered by others, as well as his covers: The Covers Project: David Bowie. I'd copy and paste, but there's a whole bunch of hidden text that I don't want to wade through and delete. __________________ I can't read your signature. Sorry.

05-09-2005, 01:19 PM	#4 (permalink)
SiN strangelove Location: ...more here than there...	^ nice list, rl ...but incomplete. Bauhaus covered Ziggy Stardust ... for example. __________________ - + - ° GiRLie GeeK ° - + - ° 01110010011011110110111101110100001000000110110101100101 Therell be days/When Ill stray/I may appear to be/Constantly out of reach/I give in to sin/Because I like to practise what I preach

05-09-2005, 01:41 PM	#8 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	what are you taking (or not taking) into account when you decide a question like whether david bowie is or is not a "good musician" exactly? __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

05-09-2005, 03:34 PM	#10 (permalink)
K-Wise It's All About The Ass!! Location: In a pool of mayonnaise!!	Hmm I actually prefer his original compared to The Wallflowers version myself. Maybe I just have a bias because it's Bowie. Oh and Changes has been covered by damn near everybody and everybodies version sucks total ass compared to his. Asta!! __________________ "I love music and it's my parents fault (closing statement)." - Me..quoting myself...from when I said that...On TFP..thats here...Tilted Forum Project *It ain't goodbye, it's see ya later! I'll miss you guys!* - Asta!!

05-09-2005, 01:05 PM	#2 (permalink)
Janey Junkie Location: Toronto	On the other hand, I really prefer Bowie's take on the Rolling Stone's 'Let's Spend the Night Together' (Aladin Sane?). His delivery is more enjoyable for me.

05-09-2005, 02:44 PM	#9 (permalink)
anleja disconnected Location: ignoreland	Off topic, but that is a great site. I was thinking of making a cd compiled of Bob Dylan covers, this is perfect for that. (imagine the bloodshed if someone posted a Bob Dylan thread with the same topic as this one.)

05-09-2005, 03:39 PM	#11 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I'd have to agree with K-Wise... nothing beats Bowie's Heroes... his version is way better than the Wallflowers. I also love Bowie's Man Who Sold the World (not that I don't like Nirvana's version... it's a very good cover). I would have to agree that that vast majority of Bowie's early work is not going to neccesarily appeal to those who have been weened on the music production of today... In my mind, he is one of the few aging rock stars that remains remotely relevant... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-09-2005, 03:50 PM	#12 (permalink)
K-Wise It's All About The Ass!! Location: In a pool of mayonnaise!!	^ Yeah I'll have to agree. I'm a bit of an old soul when it comes to music at times. I remember when I was a freshman we saw an astronaught video from the 70's and they were playing "Space Oddity" in the background and I started singing along and everyone looked at me like I was crazy. Then one of my friends was like "How do you know that song?" I simply replied "My parents used to play it a lot for me when I was a kid." I don't think it was so much that the song was old though. I think it was that they just didn't care for it at all and thought it funny that I not only knew it, but actually liked it. Here I'm thinking "How can you NOT like it?" I suppose if a band like Smashing Pumpkins covered it they'd love it. Asta!! __________________ "I love music and it's my parents fault (closing statement)." - Me..quoting myself...from when I said that...On TFP..thats here...Tilted Forum Project *It ain't goodbye, it's see ya later! I'll miss you guys!* - Asta!!

05-09-2005, 10:23 PM	#14 (permalink)
Rawb Crazy Location: Salt Town, UT	Just as I browsed into this thread, on came a Bowie cover. Right off of "The Life Aquatic" soundtrack, Seu Jorge - Life On Mars. Right now, I like it better than the original, but I think the fact that it is in Porteguse(sp) that makes it simpler to play in the background and still work to. Also, this guy has an awesome voice.

05-10-2005, 04:21 AM	#15 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Rawb... the entire soundtrack of The Life Aquatic is either Bowie or Bowie covers... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-10-2005, 04:26 AM	#16 (permalink)
d*d Addict	David Bowie is a good song writer but not a good musician... In your opinion, he is however a damn fine musician

05-10-2005, 04:37 AM	#17 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Bowie has two covers on his recent album Heathen that aren't too bad... Neil Young's Winterlong and the Pixies Dress... His cover of dress isn't nearly as good as the original but then I love the Pixies... it should be noted that the Pixies have done some of the best covers of songs ever. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-10-2005, 05:45 AM	#18 (permalink)
Spektr Copacetic Location: Nati	Saying that the Wallflowers did something better than David Bowie is like saying that bashing your testicles with a meat tenderizer promotes healthy cholesterol.

05-10-2005, 06:59 AM	#20 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i would imagine that "low" and "heros" would be really difficult to cover, given the enoproduction that is all over both. more generally, now that i have stopped laughing at spektr's post, which says pretty much all i have to say but much better than i could manage, i still dont understand what the claim at the origin of the thread actually means. try writing pop hooksat all--it aint easy to do--if you manage that, try working a series of hook-based tunes into a cycle anything like the complexity of what bowie manages. put the results up and maybe then we'll see if there is or is not a link between musicianship in general and bowie's songwriting. you might also think about--say--ziggy stardust in the context of the early 1970s. think about how the record is mixed, that it can be heard in two ways--one that emphasizes the beatles-like voicings on the chords, another that emphasizes the guitar sound that is worked in/through the changes and which takes the whole record to another place. it was a fine piece of glampop--it was alot more than a fine piece of glampop....and for all that, aladdin sane is better (particularly the woozy title track---particularly the piano part in that track, which thoroughly tweaked my brain as a 16 year old, when i first heard it). i cant listen to much of what i thought was Important Music when i was in high school--bowie, a couple roxy music records, sometimes t rex--that's about it. at the time, i might have thought emerson lake and palmer--or (shudder) even rick wakeman to have been better "musicians" but i now find their stuff to be unlistenable. all this pseudo-19th century classical crap. but they had chops. is that what matters? btw, you could say the same about nirvana as about the wallflowers. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

05-11-2005, 05:37 PM	#23 (permalink)
Dbass Crazy	Your thesis needs rewording. If Bowie wasn't an excellent musician, he wouldn't have a bloody clue what a good pop song required - chords, melody, rhythm - he would be writing 3 chord Ramones songs. Think about that. Then consider his vocal range - do you have the variety of tone colors he does at the extremes of your range? Not even you, but did Kurt from Nirvana, or Jakob Dylan? What you consider to be better musicianship is really your idea of better interpretation. And to the Ramones fans, and all other people I've insulted today: The Ramones didn't write musical songs, they wrote catchy ones, and Nirvana and The Wallflowers stand alone as excellent bands, but the fact is that they weren't doing anything new while Bowie was, and they won't stand the test of time as singers or guitar players.

05-11-2005, 10:46 PM	#24 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	Bowie rocks. To write the songs he's written and do the things he's done with rock music...that requires sheer talent AND balls of steel. The man is an adventurer in music--so many other artists cannot say the same. And those who try...they certainly don't pull it off with as much panache. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

05-16-2005, 04:41 PM	#27 (permalink)
Val_1 Addict Location: In a State of Denial	One thing to remember is that music taste is quite subjective. The technical abilities of a musician does not dictate how much an individual will like it. Case in point, Bowie's original version of Heroes has one of the finest guitarists to ever grace God's green Earth playing on it: the almighty Robert Fripp. And the rest of the band is pretty good, too. While the Wallflowers, while good, are fairly mediocre musicians (I dig them too, they get the job done), however you you like the Wallflowers version better. Fine. Just a matter of taste. In the end, Bowie's a very good songwriter and a pretty darn competent musician. __________________ I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. -Frank Sinatra

05-19-2005, 02:12 PM	#28 (permalink)
flamingdog Still fighting it.	If you know anything about music, you know that good songwriting IS good musicianship. All the technical ability in the world can't help you if you don't know a hook, or the difference between a verse and a chorus and how to make the two hang together in the context of the individual song you're working on. Bowie, like a lot of legends, gets this right more than he gets it wrong. Like pretty much any music legend, Bowie's done stuff I can really dig, and shit I wish he'd buried forever. I happen to love the Stone Temple Pilots cover of Andy Warhol, by the way. If you've not heard it, I recommend you track it down.

05-19-2005, 03:37 PM	#29 (permalink)
pinkie Helplessly hoping Location: Above the stars	Bowie rules, period.

05-21-2005, 12:23 PM	#30 (permalink)
anleja disconnected Location: ignoreland	Marilyn Manson performs a totally embarrassing version of "Golden Years." Oh man, it's bad, especially compared to the original.

07-05-2005, 04:18 PM	#32 (permalink)
Nirvana Crazy	im not sure, but space oddity by david bowie is one of my favorite songs.

07-07-2005, 12:49 PM	#34 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	There is just no way that the Wallflower's version is anywhere near as good as the original of Heroes... As for the man who sold the world? Both versions are good. Wouldn't pick one over the other... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

07-12-2005, 07:29 PM	#35 (permalink)
muckluck Psycho	Woah on that The Covers Project site they say there is a Tool cover of Comfortably numb? Has anyone ever heard this, and is it good? Tool did an awesome cover of No Quarter. I can only imagine what a Pink Floyd cover by them sounds like. __________________