SupTurCharging? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

1slOwCD8 · 04-27-2005, 01:44 PM

Well, i saw this and thought is was interesting. Does anybody know why someone would do this? Cause I have no idea, i figured, the supercharger would help with the turbo lag, and the turbo charger would help the supercharger run the belt, but i have no idea. Seems pretty cool, and ive never seen anything like this, so i thought id share. The cars an STi by the way.

Anybody also have a guess on what the 3rd boost gauge would be for?

DEI37 · 04-27-2005, 04:26 PM

Twin charging. Complex for sure. The three boost guages are probably...turbo boost, supercharger boost, and overall boost.

shakran · 04-27-2005, 05:52 PM

I think DEI37 is right - especially since the one gauge reads much higher than the other two

MSD · 04-27-2005, 07:45 PM

It looks unneccesarily complex, and I think that thermal efficiency would drop exponentially with the addition of each sequential boosting device. I'll stick with a twin-turbo setup if I'm going for max power.

I think that your'e correct to assume that the turbo will help offset low-end power due to the large parasitic effect of the supercharger below the torque band.

Scorps · 04-27-2005, 11:06 PM

OMG what a waste of money.....went I get my project car (80-98 Camaro) I will be supercharging a rebuilt 350.....I don't think I will need a turbo also

fuzyfuzer · 04-28-2005, 05:28 AM

hellooooo are you in there, i can't seem to find the engine maybe because they have more space taken up power boosters than engine space, who knows :shrugs:

IanSturgill · 04-28-2005, 06:14 AM

wow! wheres the 500 shot of nitrous? Ha Ha!

JusticeForPhat · 04-28-2005, 07:18 AM

Never seen this on a gas engine before, but Detroit Diesel used to do this on a 12L V8. Produced a much higher power density before the computer controlled diesel became common. It's weird as hell the first time you see it.

Unleashed · 04-28-2005, 01:36 PM

It's essentially the same as twin turbos - usually one of them will be smaller for a boost lower down in the revs, while the larger one gets up to running speed. It just reduces lag a lot.
However, Mercedes Benz have a slightly different feel for it - they have the bi-turbo system. Just two equally sized turbos on each set of cylinders (they only have it on their V12s, perhaps V8s, but I'm not sure).

510cut · 04-28-2005, 06:49 PM

theres also an evo that did supercharger and turbo charger out in Colorado I think.

lite campfire · 04-30-2005, 12:50 PM

There's also this superturbo Volvo inline 5 powered Opel Manta. Nissan made a superturbo March for some unspecified period of time (I only know about it 'cause it was in Gran Turismo 2), and the group B Lancia Delta Intergrale was twincharged as well.
I may have heard somewhere that HKS made a turbo kit for MkI supercharged MR-2s, but they may have meant the turbo was a replacement, not an addition.
And then there's this thing:

It's supposed to be a Holden, but I don't know what model or where I got the pictures from. Anybody else know?

todd · 04-30-2005, 07:42 PM

Hahahaha both those engines just look goofy to me.
I like an engine to look as simple as possible.

Globber2000 · 05-01-2005, 01:47 PM

The old lancia delta integrale was twincharged, but they spent a lot of money and resources perfecting the timing and boost. Then again, they also won the World Rally Championship 6 times on the trot, so who am I to argue?

GetRdone · 05-03-2005, 01:06 PM

they may have one the rally, but in the end i believe the sanctioning body outlawed twincharged cars cuz they were goin a lil tooo fast. Also, hks made the twinchargin kit for the mr2, it wasnt designed as a replacement and just added on. Just "adding" a turbo to a s/c system wouldnt work. Theres alot of complexity with tuning something like that. Its a real cool concept but in the end its way too much hassle for most street cars.

mazagmot · 05-04-2005, 06:25 PM

"Turbo and High Perfomance" magazine dropped a Minivan v6 into an MR2, then put a TRD supercharger and a turbo on it. Tuned right, the supercharger is for low end and the turbo for high.

The WRC was the only race series that I know of that ever had twin charging, and the Lancia that Globber was talking about made around 470HP from 1.8L (~261HP/L). There's also a Mini Cooper S that had a turbo added to it's stock supercharger in the current Sport Compact Car.

For real fun though, you put two turbos in series to produce ridiculous amounts of boost. As far as I know, there are some diesels out there that do this, but I don't know of any right off the top of my head.

deanprichard · 05-04-2005, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

It looks unneccesarily complex, and I think that thermal efficiency would drop exponentially with the addition of each sequential boosting device. I'll stick with a twin-turbo setup if I'm going for max power.

I think that your'e correct to assume that the turbo will help offset low-end power due to the large parasitic effect of the supercharger below the torque band.

its a roots type positive displacement supercharger, so it boosts rigth off idle, then the turbo kicks in at higher rpms, after turbo lag has passed.
i dont think thermal efficiency would drop, as long as they had seperate inlets and intercoolers for each poweradder.
also im positive that a single turbo would out preform a twin tubo on the same application, twins just have less lag

GetRdone · 05-05-2005, 07:21 AM

i think one of the problems with twincharged setups is concern over heatsoak. You would have 4 components (2 intercoolers and 2 induction mechanisms). So if one would heatsoak quicker than the othe, you would probably run into problems. I had a writeup on how this whole thing worked, ill try to find it.

HunterDevourer · 05-06-2005, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lite campfire

There's also this superturbo Volvo inline 5 powered Opel Manta. Nissan made a superturbo March for some unspecified period of time (I only know about it 'cause it was in Gran Turismo 2), and the group B Lancia Delta Intergrale was twincharged as well.
I may have heard somewhere that HKS made a turbo kit for MkI supercharged MR-2s, but they may have meant the turbo was a replacement, not an addition.
And then there's this thing:

It's supposed to be a Holden, but I don't know what model or where I got the pictures from. Anybody else know?

That's a Holden Torana, think it's basically a show car with that set up, has won a few competitions if I recall correctly. Not sure if it is practical or not, looks the goods though!

merkerguitars · 05-06-2005, 11:36 PM

Reminds me of the land speed record diesels, but those have way more of both

04-27-2005, 01:44 PM	#1 (permalink)
1slOwCD8 Psycho Location: chicago, illinois	SupTurCharging? Well, i saw this and thought is was interesting. Does anybody know why someone would do this? Cause I have no idea, i figured, the supercharger would help with the turbo lag, and the turbo charger would help the supercharger run the belt, but i have no idea. Seems pretty cool, and ive never seen anything like this, so i thought id share. The cars an STi by the way. Anybody also have a guess on what the 3rd boost gauge would be for?

04-27-2005, 04:26 PM	#2 (permalink)
DEI37 Go faster! Location: Wisconsin	Twin charging. Complex for sure. The three boost guages are probably...turbo boost, supercharger boost, and overall boost. __________________ Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

04-28-2005, 05:28 AM	#6 (permalink)
fuzyfuzer Insane Location: st. louis	hellooooo are you in there, i can't seem to find the engine maybe because they have more space taken up power boosters than engine space, who knows :shrugs: __________________ "The difference between commiment and involvment is like a ham and egg breakfast the chicken was involved but the pig was commited" "Thrice happy is the nation that has a glorious history. Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt

04-30-2005, 12:50 PM	#11 (permalink)
lite campfire Crazy	There's also this superturbo Volvo inline 5 powered Opel Manta. Nissan made a superturbo March for some unspecified period of time (I only know about it 'cause it was in Gran Turismo 2), and the group B Lancia Delta Intergrale was twincharged as well. I may have heard somewhere that HKS made a turbo kit for MkI supercharged MR-2s, but they may have meant the turbo was a replacement, not an addition. And then there's this thing: It's supposed to be a Holden, but I don't know what model or where I got the pictures from. Anybody else know? Last edited by lite campfire; 04-30-2005 at 04:41 PM..

05-03-2005, 01:06 PM	#14 (permalink)
GetRdone Psycho	they may have one the rally, but in the end i believe the sanctioning body outlawed twincharged cars cuz they were goin a lil tooo fast. Also, hks made the twinchargin kit for the mr2, it wasnt designed as a replacement and just added on. Just "adding" a turbo to a s/c system wouldnt work. Theres alot of complexity with tuning something like that. Its a real cool concept but in the end its way too much hassle for most street cars. __________________ Revere Jena Malone.......this is not a suggestion.

04-27-2005, 05:52 PM	#3 (permalink)
shakran Tone.	I think DEI37 is right - especially since the one gauge reads much higher than the other two

04-27-2005, 07:45 PM	#4 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	It looks unneccesarily complex, and I think that thermal efficiency would drop exponentially with the addition of each sequential boosting device. I'll stick with a twin-turbo setup if I'm going for max power. I think that your'e correct to assume that the turbo will help offset low-end power due to the large parasitic effect of the supercharger below the torque band.

04-27-2005, 11:06 PM	#5 (permalink)
Scorps Lost!! Location: Kingston, Ontario	OMG what a waste of money.....went I get my project car (80-98 Camaro) I will be supercharging a rebuilt 350.....I don't think I will need a turbo also

04-28-2005, 06:14 AM	#7 (permalink)
IanSturgill Crazy Location: Lex Vegas, KY	wow! wheres the 500 shot of nitrous? Ha Ha!

04-28-2005, 07:18 AM	#8 (permalink)
JusticeForPhat Crazy Location: Philly	Never seen this on a gas engine before, but Detroit Diesel used to do this on a 12L V8. Produced a much higher power density before the computer controlled diesel became common. It's weird as hell the first time you see it.

04-28-2005, 01:36 PM	#9 (permalink)
Unleashed Upright Location: Over there --->	It's essentially the same as twin turbos - usually one of them will be smaller for a boost lower down in the revs, while the larger one gets up to running speed. It just reduces lag a lot. However, Mercedes Benz have a slightly different feel for it - they have the bi-turbo system. Just two equally sized turbos on each set of cylinders (they only have it on their V12s, perhaps V8s, but I'm not sure).

04-28-2005, 06:49 PM	#10 (permalink)
510cut Upright	theres also an evo that did supercharger and turbo charger out in Colorado I think.

04-30-2005, 07:42 PM	#12 (permalink)
todd Addict Location: Chicago	Hahahaha both those engines just look goofy to me. I like an engine to look as simple as possible.

05-01-2005, 01:47 PM	#13 (permalink)
Globber2000 Upright	The old lancia delta integrale was twincharged, but they spent a lot of money and resources perfecting the timing and boost. Then again, they also won the World Rally Championship 6 times on the trot, so who am I to argue?

05-04-2005, 06:25 PM	#15 (permalink)
mazagmot Crazy Location: S. Korea	"Turbo and High Perfomance" magazine dropped a Minivan v6 into an MR2, then put a TRD supercharger and a turbo on it. Tuned right, the supercharger is for low end and the turbo for high. The WRC was the only race series that I know of that ever had twin charging, and the Lancia that Globber was talking about made around 470HP from 1.8L (~261HP/L). There's also a Mini Cooper S that had a turbo added to it's stock supercharger in the current Sport Compact Car. For real fun though, you put two turbos in series to produce ridiculous amounts of boost. As far as I know, there are some diesels out there that do this, but I don't know of any right off the top of my head. __________________ d^_^b Got my headphones on.

05-06-2005, 11:36 PM	#19 (permalink)
merkerguitars Buffering......... Location: Wisconsin...	Reminds me of the land speed record diesels, but those have way more of both __________________ Donate now! Ask me How! Please use the search function it is your friend. Look at my mustang please feel free to comment! http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=26985

05-05-2005, 07:21 AM	#17 (permalink)
GetRdone Psycho	i think one of the problems with twincharged setups is concern over heatsoak. You would have 4 components (2 intercoolers and 2 induction mechanisms). So if one would heatsoak quicker than the othe, you would probably run into problems. I had a writeup on how this whole thing worked, ill try to find it. __________________ Revere Jena Malone.......this is not a suggestion.