1999 Toyota Camry brake problem - FINAL UPDATE
 

CSI Wgn
4 wheel disc brake, non ABS
53000 ks
Owned since new.

3 times over the last 2 months, my camry has been very "sluggish" . I have narrowed it down to the LHR disc brake caliper. The rotor is blue, an obvious sign of very high heat build up. toyota reckon they don't have any recorded problems with this, but I was yacking with aguy, who worked for Toyota as a mechanic, an when I said I had a sticking brake caliper on my toyota car, he straight away says "Camry?"

Please note I am in Australia.

Any body heard of a similar prob????

There are three Technical Service Bulletins (basically info from the manufacturer to mechanics about known problems and their fixes) for Brakes for 1999 Camrys, none seem to be a match for your problem though. The mechanic you talked to may just be thinking in general about brake problems, or there just haven't been enough problems like yours to warrant a TSB.

I would try changing the brake pad and see if it helps. If not, it may be a warped rotor.

Good luck and please share the solution if you find one.


TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN: MFG Bulletin Number: BR00199

MFG Bulletin Date: 990401

Component: BRAKES:HYDRAULIC SYSTEM

Details: NEW FRONT BRAKE PAD KITS ARE AVAILABLE TO REDUCE FRONT BRAKE GROAN OR GRINDING NOISE ON VEHICLES WITHIN CERTAIN VIN RANGES.

MCS Check Date: 20020528


Check to Include on Custom Report TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN: MFG Bulletin Number: BR00499

MFG Bulletin Date: 990701

Component: BRAKES:HYDRAULIC:SHOE AND DRUM SYSTEM

Details: SUBJECT REGARDING REAR BRAKE DRUMBS AVAILABLE TO REDUCE REAR BRAKE DRUM HOWLING / GROANING NOISE ON NAP BUILT CAMRYS.

MCS Check Date: 20020528


Check to Include on Custom Report TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN: MFG Bulletin Number: 032999

MFG Bulletin Date: 19990329

Component: SERVICE BRAKES, HYDRAULIC:FOUNDATION COMPONENTS

Details: BRIEF INFORMATION REGARDING FRONT BRAKE NOISE. *TT

MCS Check Date: 19990602

it's not the pad or the rotor, though both are probably damaged to the point where you'll need to replace them. You have a stuck caliper. It will probably requrie replacement.

Check the calipers slides first, if not lubed during a brake replacement they might have rusted and there by "froze" in place.
This will not allow the caliper to retarct and will cause the same symptoms as a stuck caliper.

You'll likely have to replace the caliper. Obviously the pads and the rotor on that side are history, too. Make sure when you replace the caliper, you lube up the caliper slides with good hi-temp grease.

All valid points thanks everyone.

At 53000 ks, These are the original pads
Slides are fine. Checked these first.Piston was also fine. Was able to push it back in easily. However, i always reckoned it was the caliper, so have replace that for now. If all is OK over the next couple of weeks, I'll replace the rotor, and install fresh pads, both side of course.


Z

If im not mistaking, there is a seal in the caliper behind the dustboot. That keeps the hydraulic fluid from leaking out, and keeps it moving the piston. But it also has another important function - it acts like a spring to pull the pads back away from the rotor. As that seal starts to age, wear, and stretch, it will loose its ability to pull the pad back effectively.

Im not sure what all gets done in a caliper overhaul, but you may still be able to use your old one. Get a new seal, dustboot, and clean up the piston/cylinder, and it may work just fine. Id look into the option of using the old one(mainly what went wrong with it) before buying a new one.

If the caliper is sound, hydraulically, you may have a brake hose problem. The inner sleeve can fail and not allow sufficient backflow to relieve pressure in the caliper. The result would be the symptoms you described. Cheap insurance. Good luck.

Bugger.
Did it again this morning.
This time, I had a spanner with me so I cracked the bleeder... I got a squirt of fluid!. So the problem _must_ be "upsteam."

mmmm, don't think so.

The piston will have a seal around it to keep the fluid in (obviously) but it doesn't pull the piston back.

With disk brakes, when you remove your foot from the pedal, you remove the force, which removes the pressure in the system.

The pads never really back off per se, they just dont clamp any more and the rotar is now free to spin. There's always a touch of drag i suppose.

That's one of the beauties of disk brakes - you never need to adjust them like you used to with drum brakes since the wear in the pads is always compensated for each time you put the brakes on.

With drum brakes, you have to adjust them every once in a while to take up the slack as the shoes wear.

JTK might be right, although a Wagner tech at a brake clinic claimed that the hydraulic seal provides a little tug to draw the piston back a tad.
The single-piston floating-caliper disc brake is self-centering and self-adjusting. The caliper is able to slide from side to side so it will move to the center each time the brakes are applied. Also, since there is no spring to pull the pads away from the disc, the pads always stay in light contact with the rotor (the rubber piston seal and any wobble in the rotor may actually pull the pads a small distance away from the rotor). This is important because the pistons in the brakes are much larger in diameter than the ones in the master cylinder. If the brake pistons retracted into their cylinders, it might take several applications of the brake pedal to pump enough fluid into the brake cylinder to engage the brake pads.http://auto.howstuffworks.com/disc-brake2.htm

Zook... have you checked the hose?

THE PROBLEM HAS BEEN IDENTIFIED!!!!

Contaminated brake fluid.

I have always taken my car back to the dealer for servicing, while it was under warranty.

I have now only to replace/recondition, the Master Cylinder, Proportioning valve, calipers, flexible hoses, pads and rotors..


The service book states only dot 3 fluid, but I was talking a rep of the suppliers of this dealers and he says the dealer has started buying dot 4 fluid from another company, because it is cheaper, and it is playing havoc with the brakes of many Toyotas he gets to see at other repair shops.

The parts are gonna cost me around $800.00.
I am having the fluid saved and tested. and the parts, to see about reimbursement from the dealer.....

Hmm... i was under the impression dot3 and dot4 were compatible, as the are both glycol based (i believe), and while not reccommended, could even be mixed. I know DOT5 = bad for a dot3/4 system, as does any hydrocarbon fluid (like engine oil, power steering, etc.). The primary advantage of dot4 over dot3 is the higher boiling point.

From what i hear, getting power sterring, engine oil, etc causes very similar problems. It will cause pretty much all the seals and internal rubber parts in your braking system to expand to far beyond their normal size, which could result in burning up brakes, locked brakes etc.

If you have taken it to the dealer for all its fluid changes, and if they did add fluid to the brakes since you took it their, there is no reason you should pay a dime for this. Their neglegence/mistakes caused the problems, and warranty or no, it shouln't cost you to get it fixed.

Dot 3 is compatible with Dot 4

but, this quote "he says the dealer has started buying dot 4 fluid from another company, because it is cheaper" suggests that maybe the dealer was buying a sub-standard fluid (i.e. Fly-By-Night brand "dot 4" brake fluid). In any case, take the car to the dealer where the servicing was done and demand, not ask, that they repair the damage. Alternately, if you do not trust them to do the work properly (and I wouldn't blame you for that, given what has happened) then have it done elsewhere and demand, not ask, for a reimbursement. It's a risk, however, as they may balk at that, in which case you will be out the $$ you paid. However, if they have any regard for their reputation, they should take care of you.

side note: when I was in the biz, we had a customer who had contaminated the brake fluid on his 88 Cutlass Supreme (4 wheel disc system) and we did a complete overhaul of all the hydraulics on his car. Flushed the system several times. And it came back with a rear caliper lockup problem. Flushed it again, twice, and replaced the caliper and pads on that wheel. And it came back, same trouble. And again, and again, and again. We tried everything to get it to stop happening. Finally, the guy was so frustrated with it, and us too somewhat, that he sold the car just to be done with it.

Of course, in his case, the contamination was from power steering fluid, which is much worse than a batch of bad brake fluid, as ps fluid is hygroscopic (absorbs water) which is VERY VERY bad for brake systems.

Things are developing. I spoke with Tech services, Toyota Aust, today, and they are investigating. They are keen to "maintain a positive client/corporation relationship"


Stay tuned, folks..... "same BAT channel..."

FINAL UPDATE
 

The dealer offered one third. I refused and took it up with Toyota National. They came through and all is resolved. Very pleased with result.
Thanks to all for your input.


Car now perfect again.
Owner doing well :)

glad to hear it zook.

now, sell that car quick before the problem returns. (only half kidding)

Workin' on that, Sion.

I have a mate heading to US next month, and he's gonna try and find me a late model Elky.