irseg

American cars are pretty hit and miss for reliability. My dad had a '90 Sable. Popped a head gasket at 95k miles (good ol' 3.8), within about the next 10k miles everything that could break did. Power steering pump, water pump, fuel pump, starter, auto climate controller, speed sensor, etc. Then it started making an ominous loud clanking sound when it was started and occasionally on a 2-1 downshift. My theory is that the torque converter ballooned and messed up the crankshaft thrust bearings, because the ends of the flywheel bolts were all smashed up.

My dad's '90 Ranger was pretty decent until the heads on its 2.9 V6 cracked at 60k miles, which leaked coolant into the oil and killed the bearings over the next 5k miles until it had no oil pressure to the top end.

On the other hand I beat the hell out of my '88 T-bird on a daily basis. I have the boost cranked up to 18 psi, shift at redline all the time, etc, etc. 105k miles on original everything including turbo, and it just won't die.

A friend of mine has 220k miles on his '86 Buick Riviera. Only time it ever left him stranded in the 100k miles he's had it was when he thought the engine lost oil pressure, but it turned out to be water getting in the sending unit connector. He had a few other Rivs, they were just as good.

pocon1

My parents had 90 or so olds Toronado. Ran great with the 3.8 until at 170,000 miles their indash touchscreen computer went bellyup, taking a lot of functions with it. Engine and tranny never quit, but they could not find a replacement computer for the car. They had to get rid of it.
I know everyone is slamming the interiors of GM, but have you ever been inside a Cavalier? The dash is concave and their is one bizarre defroster square in themiddle of the dash to defrost the windshield. In my mind, that is one of the ugliest designs I have seen.

bad30th

You could have summarized all this complaining with..."I owned ONE GM product, and it sucked, so they all suck." lol

...in your experience. In MY experience, imports suck ass in the reliability department. I owned a Nissan which was horribly unreliable, and friends/relatives of mine have owned Toyotas, Hondas and Mazdas and all left them stranded far more often than any of the GM vehicles I've owned.

So I'm just going to go ahead and make a blanket statement that 'Imports are pretty hit and miss for reliability.'

jumpingbeans

What's with the paint on the hoods of GM cars? It only seems to last for a few years.........

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james t kirk

Really, no, i was just using my latest example. The 97 Park Avenue, bought brand new, one owner. Supposedly the premiere Buick with the "bullet proof" 3.8

I have also owned:
90 Z28 (Piece of Shit)
88 Lesabre (pretty good car)
82 Regal (poor car, but it was a bad era for cars)
77 Monte Carlo (great car!!)
70 Delta 88 with 455 Rocket. Inherited this little gem with 18,000 miles on it (great car)
82 Chevy Citation (not the most reliable, but cheap and easy to fix yourself
80 Pheonix (1980 motor trend car of the year, but had more bugs in it than the fish house at the cottage)

So you see, you shouldn't be so quick to jump to uninformed conclusions.

My parents owned:

64 Pontiac Strato Chief
67 Impala
73 Olds 88
80 Grand Prix
85 Riviera
97 Grand Prix.

So, i have been around GM's all my life. I have also owned a ford ranger (97), and my 75 Triumph TR6 (still own it, it's my "reliable car")

GM engineer the worst cars on the road right now in my humble opinion.

The problems I listed with my park Avenue are all very real, including the death of the engine by poor design.

My wife on the otherhand owns a 98 Camry with 228,000 km on it and it has had a new radiator put in it and a tune up, and some brake pads. That's about it.

lakefire

Man, my dad has a 74.5 Triumph Tr6 and it's been running perhaps 20% of it's life. It's gone from one problem to the next.

They have a design flaw where they will forever leak oil. Needless to say it's hella fun to drive and I'd love for my dad to completely rebuild it, but the parts for an old import aren't too cheap.

amonkie

At the moment, we've got a Ford,Chevy, Olds, and a Mercury in our driveway. Have also had Chevy silverado, another Ford truck, a Caddy,and a Ford Aerostar in the past.

The chevy is a 96 conversion van, and I want to smack whatever designer thought they could make an engine compartment nearly vertical so they could shorten the front end. When it comes to repairing and replacing parts, it's a pain in the ass since the only thing really accessible is the battery and oil fluid. Anything else and you've gotta try and dig down through a couple feet of metal and plastic, with no finger room whatsoever.

The only beef I've had about my olds is when GM thought they would try and make the car smart with a key identification system that was connected to the starter. Certain days, the car would just decide it didn't like my key and wouldn't start. So you'd keep trying, and end up killing the battery in the process. Once we pulled the system, no probs whatsoever.

__________________
Calling from deep in the heart, from where the eyes can't see and the ears can't hear, from where the mountain trails end and only love can go... ~~~ Three Rivers Hare Krishna

billege

This summs it up for me:

The same turn signal stalk, HVAC controls, and radio are present in the Cavalier, and the Grand Prix GTP.

My point being, the same crappy switch gear is spread across the whole GM product line. It's damn near inescapeable, no matter how much you spend.

Also, when I turn the key off, the radio, headlights, etc. should be off. I can't figure out why GM figures it should all stay on until I open a door.

__________________
I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

james t kirk

The TR6 is a fantastic fun car. Almost should be illegal they are so much fun.

Shouldn't leak that much oil. You are basically talking a 30 year old car here, so odds are you have some brittle main seals, or gaskets.

I have restored my TR6 from the frame on up. It's a very simple and fun car to work on. I have a British cam in it, a 10:1 head, totally done out head for that matter as per Kas Kastner's book on Triumphs.

Parts are readily available, and very cheap in my eyes. Far cheaper than my buick.

You can get a complete body shell from the Roadster Factory in Armagh Penn. for about 7 grand i think.

Carpets - all original WOOL sets for 399 US. Compare that to a carpet set for a new car. You'll be looking at well over a grand.

If you want every TR6 part under the sun, or any other Triumph part check out the Roadster Factory.

http://www.the-roadster-factory.com

I highly reccomend this place. The owner is a triumph nut, and he loves the cars. His work is his passion.

For perfomance, you can order from Triumph Tune in England. Actually, I think they go by Moss UK now, having been bought out. They have all the parts you could ever want to make that baby rock.

bad30th

^^^ dang that was on topic

bad30th

Dude ALL vans are like that...unless its a craptacular mini-van, which are still hard to work on.


This really bothers you? I mean, you're serious?

james t kirk

sorry, should have reserved it for a PM i guess.

I'll put us back on topic.

GM cars are all the biggest pieces of shit ever to hit the road of late.

The are poorly engineered, poorly built, lack styling, redundant (they all look the same), their interiors are lame, and GM has the worst record when it comes to customer service.

GM is entirely geared to creative thinking when it comes to building cars on the cheap. It's all about squeezing every penny out of the production process. If they have a choice between part A made of plastic that will fail after 90,000 km or Part B that is a superior quality and will last forever, but costs a dollar more, they (GM) will elect to use the cheaper part EVERY TIME.

They are more worried about strategic locations for coffee cup holders, and power points than engines or tranmissions.

I would reccomend that anyone considering buying a GM think long and hard about it.

How's that??

Kurant

Mercedes, Audi, VW all do it also.

It's a popular thing now, apparently. It's just a radio.

bad30th

Actually it was quite shitty.

Exactly what I asked people NOT to post.

Thanks for playing tho....

Anyone else have anything actually useful to share?

james t kirk

Dear Bad30'th.

You asked why people hate GM's and I told you why I hate GM's in serveral posts.

You just don't like my answers. You obviously are horny for GM's and that's fine.

But I am not.

I have owned several, and the latest and greatest is testament to why GMs are terrible.

They used to be good, but not any more. GM is a company ruled by accountants, not engineers. The days of Harly Earl and Zora Duntov are gone forever.

At GM, it's all about producing cars on the cheap and it shows in their product.

Here:

www.gm-v6lemons.com

www.gmjunk.com

People are writing websites about how terrible GM's quality is these days.

Here's a link to a web petition signed by 5,000 people with v6 intake manifold problems.

FIVE THOUSAND.......

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_pe...d.cgi?GMcnsmrs

Maybe you could show me a similar website, or petition for Toyota, or Nissan, or Audi, or BMW, etc, etc.

You asked the question, I stated an answer. You just don't like it.

silent_jay

seems like no matter what you say if it is something bad about GM it has to be wrong even if you actually put in a reason so there is not much use posting because whatever it is will be wrong. you asked for opinions yet when someone gives you an opinion you get confrontational.

Good info James although i don't know if it will do any good.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

SVT01Cobra

I never said there was anything wrong with people who like imports, but it's the ricers that get on my nerves, there are quite a few import cars that I would LOVE to have.

You know, the idiots who put the big 20 pound steel wings on back, paper mache ground effects, that kind of stuff.

silent_jay

i understand now but when you refer to them as "import ricers" it sounds like you are talking about everyone who likes imports. I agree with the wings when they are put on cars that don't suit them. In my hometown we have a guy with one on an Avenger that looks like a shopping cart, also someone with one on a Celica that looks horrible.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

bad30th

No, actually, you just said that they are pieces of shit...no wait here it is...you said "GM cars are all the biggest pieces of shit ever to hit the road of late." And then you went on about their poor engineering. You stated your point earlier.

Actually I dont have a problem with your answers at all. I have a problem with anyone who says a car is "a piece of shit," with no real backup. You dont like GM products. Thats cool. To each his own. Your first two posts were informative. The third was basically your opinions about GM engineering. Thats cool too I guess.


Thats great. So is every other automotive company. Money makes the world go 'round, cheif.


People are also making websites about shit like this---> www.dolphinsex.org

So what......

lol guess I wont be buying one of those

Or one of these --->http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=40942


Just a quick search...
http://www.petitiononline.com/03Accord/petition.html
http://www.petitiononline.com/44ndone/petition.html
http://www.petitiononline.com/acura/petition.html

See...everyone sucks hehe

Never said any of it was wrong, just not what I was asking for.

And I am not getting confrontational at all. I enjoy discussing/debating/whatever as long as the things people say have some sort of valid backup. I think that many people (myself included sometimes) get very defensive (and for some this also means offensive) when their views and beliefs are challenged.

When I comment on what someone says, I'm trying to gain a greater understanding of where they are coming from.

To be brutally honest, I sorta like that GM is so universally hated by owners of other brands. It keeps the GM vehicles I want to buy at a lower price....and I just LOVE leaving your more refined cars in my dust, wonderful interiors and all !
hehe

shakran

Well when I had a 91 Civic and a 94 Integra, they both had the same stalk. Surprise surprise, so did the 92 Legend. A turn signal stalk does not make or break a good car just because it's shared across cars.

GM's problems are (at least they were. . .the jury's still out on the new stuff 'cause it hasn't been around long enough to get reliability data) much deeper than sharing parts amongst its cars. Hell, almost ALL manufacturers do this - even Ferarri and Porsche.

As for reliability data, I don't tend to listen to the "well I owned a Ford Excess and it broke so all Fords suck" argument. I tend more to look at established reliability patterns as reported by numerous owners - i.e. the ratings in Consumer Reports for one. They're quite telling, especially if you look at the used car ratings - that gives you a good picture as to how the car will hold up. Amazing how many GMs got ultra crappy ratings and how many Hondas got perfect reliability marks.

I own several cars, both Japanese and American. IMHO ANY car should be able to make it to 150k if you take care of it. Well my Plymouth is at 125k, and I'm not at all convinced it'll see 150.

My Honda, on the other hand, is at 250k and counting and still runs just like it did when I bought it new, and it's never had anything but routine maintenance done as far as repair. Oh, and it's had a turbo for 120,000 of those 1/4 million miles, and I didn't build the engine up either, so it sees 9lbs of boost on bone stock internals routinely and hasn't suffered a bit from it. You can't get results like that with a crappy engine design.

bad30th

Wow what year and engine is in the turbo Honda?

shakran

1988 and it's the D16A6 (1.6L, 105 hp stock, found in 1988-1991 civics and crx's among other things)

Scorps

Man no other car industry can beat the oold Chevelle, Firbirds and Camaro's of the 70's, 80's and even 90's

HeLLVieW96

the ricer losers only complain cause their cars suck compared to REAL, hotrod american cars. im more into the old, classic cars, i dont think its all GM, but most all new cars that are "cheap", nothing beats good ol steel and raw power. its all opinion though, but when it comes down to facts, get a real car, not one powered by a 4cylinder washer motor.

i liked this little quote here alot, i thought id post it

"The American Muscle Car" while todays modern computer controlled squeaky clean cars may approach the performance numbers put up 35 years ago, they will never duplicate the rush generated by 400-plus cubic inches fighting for traction through period bias-ply tires. Pity todays car enthusiasts who think variable valve timing is the hot set up"
-Bruce armstrong

shakran

I assume by ricer you mean any import driver. Most muscle car fans do.

Actually, those of us with a clue can appreciate both kinds of cars, and think that people who call us losers just because we drive a japanese car are idiots. Just because you choose not to have something doesn't mean you don't appreciate its good points.

Of course, we don't complain much either. And we're not dumb enough (remember, I'm talking about the import drivers with a clue here) to compare 1990's import technology to 1960's American technology.

Comparing a 1990's economically-minded sporty import to a 1960's muscle car built in an era when good fuel economy was anything over 1 digit is insanely stupid. First off, even if the imports wanted to build a classic muscle car, they couldn't. Emissions laws and CAFE fuel economy requirements would prohibit it.


But as long as you're insisting on comparing old American with new import, let's not forget that General Motors actually called the corvair a super fast sports car in its ads, and that they did this in response to the imports gaining more and more of a foothold with American buyers. Ever driven a corvair? I have, and a sports car it's not.

The Japanese established a track record of building reliable cars that didn't guzzle gas, and that were affordable. They're continuing that tradition today.

American cars established a reputation of building cars that lost their paint and started falling apart before the car mags could get through a 30,000 mile test.

Whether they're doing so right now, today, is something we won't know until a few years from now when we can look at the average reliability, but the damage has been done.

As far as 4 cylinder motors are concerned. . .Well, there are lots of 4 cylinder cars out there that will beat the holy hell out of a muscle car in just about everything but straight line acceleration (and I'll put a turbo MR2 or an S2000 up against a muscle car in any category and they'll come out on top more often than not).


The bottom line should be what YOU like to drive. What's the point of bashing others because they don't drive the same kind of car as you? That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

HeLLVieW96

im not bashing anyone,"ricers" being the stupid kids, who take a complete POS and put stickers, an oversized useless wing, and an annoying exhaust tip, and say its fast, i DISLIKE those people. for good reasons.(and whats even worse is they show up at the CLASSIC car shows here in town, bleh) i dont mind a REAL, done up, foreign car. its just not my taste.

But it all comes down to O P I N I O N, thats all it is.

i didnt mean to offend you Shakran in anyway, sorry if thats what you thought.

bad30th

Lets not talk about pure performance, imports vs domestics.

For the money, domestics win, hands down. Anyone who wants to argue that is an idiot. But I know someone will lol


This, I completely agree with

shakran

none taken. It's pretty hard to offend me actually. OK, so you're one of the ones that actually knows what a ricer is. That's refreshing! And for the record, I agree with you that the kids hopping up their hondas with fartcan tips and wings that rival a 747 are pretty stupid.





let me make sure I know what you're saying. You're saying that if you measure a car as dollars per performance, the domestics win? I suppose that depends on how you define performance. Let's compare convertibles.

The S2000 does 0-60 in 6.4 seconds. 1/4 mile comes at 14.6 seconds at 100mph. Mileage is 20/26.

the Corvette does 0-60 in 5.6 seconds, and the 1/4 in 13.9 at 105mph. Mileage is 17/25

The S2000 costs $32,000 if you're dumb enough to pay MSRP.
The Corvette costs $51,000.

IMHO, $19,000 to shave 0.8 seconds off of my 0-60 time is not worth it, especially when you consider that the S2000 beats the hell out of the corvette in the twisties. And to add insult to injury, the S2000 has an electric top, the corvette a manual.

Now, that's not to say the Corvette isn't impressive, because it is. Very. But dollar for dollar, the value's in the S2k.

stingc

Where did you pull this from? The corvette driver must have had a few hundred pounds of lead bricks laying around. Standard corvettes do 0-60 in 4.8 or so. And if you opt for the Z06 option instead of a convertible (same price), you get 0-60 in around 4.2. A corvette will also pull hard throughout its rev band, whereas an S2k has no torque under 6000 rpm, and requires constant shifting. The people I've known who've driven the S2k say that this gets annoying very quickly.

I respect the Honda, but it does not compare in any way to corvette. I know they handle very well, but I wouldn't say that it would "beat the hell out of" a vette in the corners. A corvette will beat an S2k on any course except possibly a very low speed autox. The vette clearly has a lot more power though, so its hard to compare "handling" directly.

shakran

I was comparing convertible to convertible, not convertible to special super edition. If I wanted to compare the Z06, I'd have chosen the mugen SS2200, the more powerful variant of the S2000. As for the 0-60 numbers, i took the conservative side of both cars. The S2k has been reported to do it in 5 seconds as well but I suspect that was done by a pro driver launching at 5 or 6k rpm, which most of us would never do.

bad30th

umm no actually lets go ahead and compare the BRAND NEW 2003 or 2004 S2000 to, oh, i dont know, say a Camaro Z28 made A DECADE AGO.

You say 14.6 out of the S2000? Ok. How about a 14.0 out of a 1994 Z28? Did I meantion that was 10 YEARS AGO? And the Camaro costs less in 94 dollars, AND in todays dollars.....no contest.

And a note about "the twisties" as you put it..... ANYONE who actually calls real driving (road courses, autoX, rally) "the twisties" has OBVIOUSLY never actually raced "the twisties," other wise you wouldnt be saying "the twisties" like all the little ricer kids do....youd be referring to an actual motorsport competition.

That being said, let me let you in on alittle secret about S2000s ......for your average driver, they are EXTREMELY difficult to drive well, let alone to their limit. Trust me, I have seen MANY an S2000 running around the track bouncing off their rev limiter because they are afraid to shift out of their anemic little powerband. A professional driver, or at least one with EXTENSIVE S2000 racing experience might be able to drive the S2000 well, depending on the course.

The Z28 on the other hand....ANYONE car drive this car fast on a road course or AutoX.

Why you ask?

P O W E R B A N D

Its fucking huge. Just pick a gear, at almost any speed, and you are in or near the powerband.

Can you say 305 lb-ft of torque at 2200 rpm? I know the S2000 cant

By the way....did I meantion I am talking about a 10 year old car here?

The Corvette is the same way....torque for days = MUCH easier to drive fast.



And heres some food for thought....

Results of the recent Solo2 Nationals (autoX, not sure if this is this year's or last...)

For each class, cars can only be modified to the sames standards. For instance, stock allows new tires, new struts, front roll bar, and brake pads. Thats it. Here are some examples of stock cars and their top times on the course.

Super Stock
02 corvette zo6 113.04
03 corvette zo6 113.048

B stock
01 honda s2000 113.921
00 honda s2000 113.493

C stock
99 mazda miata 107.798
99 mazda miata 109.441

D stock
03 bmw 330ci 118.062
01 acura integra type r 118.346

F stock
95 chevrolet z-28 109.497
89 chevrolet 350 iroc-z 109.863

G stock
01 toyota celica gt 112.963
85 honda crx si 113.828

I have highlighted the Camaros and the S2000s.....lower numbers are faster

Did I mention that the Camaros are 9 and 15 years old???

LStanley

I have more more thing to whine about with GM cars...

I love em.. I do... and I always will

but the 700R4 transmission... was a JOKE and a MISTAKE.. that is the biggest piece of this on the car... (f-body's and std 2bolt v-8's had em)

but its been replaced now with the 700R4e and the new 2005 vette.. wow... lets just say SPLOOGE!

LS2- A new all-aluminum 6.0 L V8 delivers 400 hp at 6000 rpm and 400 lb.-ft. of torque at 4400 rpm.

New chassis with longer wheelbase

Standard short-throw six-speed manual transmission

Standard Active Handling

New, larger Goodyear Eagle F1 Extended Mobility Tires with tire-pressure monitoring system

Available Magnetic Selective Ride Control with Sport and Tour modes

Available Z51 Performance Package with unique springs, dampers, stabilizer bars, tires, cross-drilled brake rotors, unique transmission, and heavy duty steering and transmission coolers

http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette/C6_preview/

__________________
Lathan Stanley

BonneFan

I dont mind GM, been driving em since I have started driving and they served me fine. I agree the VIN K upper intake problem is a BIG problem and its due to the EGR inlet into the upper intake manifold failing , the corrective measure is a 180 T stat. In particular the 3800 pushrod engine is the best engine designed in recent GM history. And the Supercharged L67 found in Bonnevilles, Grand Prix GTP and the Buick Riv (also in SOME Olds LSS's and Buick PA's) is an amazing engine...powerful, torquey, and dependable, the M90 Eaton blower on the Series II L67 makes these GM cars true sleepers.

As for design, every car company has their flaws, but the mid 90's Riv, the 95-99 Aurora, 97-03 GP, the Bonneville, The Seville STS, these are but a few examples of some well designed GM cars...gotta love the HUD as well.

I find the interior on my Aurora hard to beat...in any car...

Decide for yourself

__________________
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- Frank Lloyd Wright (1868-1959)

silent_jay

I'd take the interior of a Benz or a BMW or Subaru anyday. no offence I like the Aurora its one of the few GM cars I do like. But the interior while very functional still looks the same. The interior is the same as every GM it just looks cheap.

Once again beautiful car and I meant no offence.

__________________
Absence makes the heart grow fonder

omega2K4

The reason why I hate GM is because most of their cars are pug fugly.

__________________
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"Reason has always existed, but not always in a reasonable form."- Karl Marx

james t kirk

With all due respect, a 180 thermostat won't make any difference whatsoever.

The exhaust stream leaving an engine at highway speed is 700 degrees celsius i believe. It's enough to make cast iron exhaust manifolds glow red and heats the EGR valve to such a point that GM has 1/8" thick piece of steel wrapped around the thing.

All this gets blasted into a piece of plastic.

Eventually, the plastic cracks from thermal fatigue and break down of the plastic material.

The obvious solution is an aluminum intake manifold again, but that costs a bit more money than a plastic one.

A cheap solution would be to pipe the EGR stream in at a different location, away from the throttle body water ports. Preferably through removable piece that can easily be replace, or better yet features a ceramic heat sync collar.

Will GM do this??

NO FREAKIN WAY.

bad30th

Gm isnt the only company producing plastic intake manifolds....

Scorps

But the corvette has a way higher top speed!

james t kirk

Yes, i know that.

Ford had to recall their Crown Vics with plastic intake manifolds.

And Mercedes briefly experimented with them before switching to magnesium.

I don't know if any Japanese use plastic intake manifolds or not.

bad30th

mazda comes to mind...damned if i can remember the car tho....