Spyder_Venom

Automotive News / April 09, 2003

DETROIT -- General Motors and BMW have agreed to work jointly on developing refueling devices for liquid hydrogen vehicles, which could replace gasoline or diesel-burning cars and trucks, a GM official said Tuesday.

The two automakers announced the cooperative effort at a trade show in Hanover, Germany, on Wednesday.

GM and BMW will work to establish global standards for hydrogen refueling devices, such as the coupler to connect liquid hydrogen fueling pumps to future cars, Larry Burns, GM's head of r&d, told Reuters.

"When you're developing products and you're looking for ways to be cost-effective, sometimes you can get frustrated by all these subtle differences" in global standards, Burns said.

"Both GM and BMW are stretching to have hydrogen-based vehicles on the road by 2010," he added.

But GM and BMW are taking different routes on the road to replacing fossil fuels.

GM has invested heavily in developing fuel cells to power electric motors in vehicles, replacing the current internal combustion engines. A hydrogen fuel cell acts like a battery, converting hydrogen and oxygen into water and producing electricity to power an automobile motor or other devices.

BMW, on the other hand, is studying burning hydrogen in internal combustion engines as a more practical alternative to developing electric motors and fuel cells.

Burns said GM is also considering the benefits of compressed hydrogen as opposed to liquid hydrogen, which has to be cooled to very low temperatures. Both forms of hydrogen could be used in the future for fuel cell cars, he said.

By working with BMW, GM could speed the arrival of the infrastructure to support fuel cell vehicles, he said. GM would also like to see other automakers and automotive suppliers join their collaboration, he said.

Also on Tuesday, President Bush's plan to spend $1.3 billion in research in the next five years to develop hydrogen cars and infrastructure took a step forward when the Senate Energy Committee agreed to authorize funding.

Republican lawmakers rejected a Democratic proposal to have 100,000 hydrogen-powered cars on the highway by 2010 and 2.5 million vehicles ready by 2020.

Democrats said goals were needed to spur automakers, arguing the White House proposal stopped short of making the cars a commercial reality.

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DEI37

It is interesting how BMW & GM have been working together. BMW already gets their automatic transmissions from GM, so this is just a step in a more "partnered" direction, which is a good thing for GM, I think.

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Spyder_Venom

I just want to know what is going through all the die-hard BMW lovers out there... just for them to know that thier 540I have a T-56 inside of it...

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DEI37

The 5-speed automatics come from GM as well. That's even more impressive, because the T56 isn't a GM transmission. Dodge and Ford both use it.

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madsenj37

Maybe its to combat the Chrysler / Mercedes relationship.

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madsenj37

Whatever works. It still carries the BMW warranty and package and its not like the car is all GM parts. Its still 80% German made and mostly German engineered. I own a BMW from 1987 and would not care if it has Chevy tranny. Its teh whole package that people buy cars for. In the end, an American made tranny might be good for BMW, perhaps keeping the costs of the car lower for everyone involved.

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"Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not certain about the universe."
-- Albert Einstein

DEI37

As far as I know, the GM/BMW relationship has been around longer than Chrysler/Mercedes. I could be wrong, though. I've just known about it for a while...who knows.

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Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

Nyenrodian

Mercedes took over Chrysler. OK, officially it was a merger. But a merger is NEVER equal. There is always a bigger partner.

Which only now starts to be effective. After a few Stuttgarters came to Chrysler. Chrysler has the problem that they want to do everything In house when sometimes it can better be outsourced.

But for instance, that new Dodge/Chrysler Crossfire is basically a Merc SLK with a Chrysler design. And i love it. It is the way of the future. Invisible parts will be shared.

Same for GM and BMW. Which is a logical partnership imho. BMW makes the some of the best cars. For instance in the 5 series segment. It is "Zee Benchmark". GM has a vast amount of resources and of the shelf products.

But never was able to conquer Europe. American cars are not popular at all in Europe. That is where BMW can share it's knowledge about European customer preferences. Which is vital for the new Cadillac CTS for example.

But anyway, when I trade my BMW in I wouldn't want one of those American Engines in it I might opt to pay that bit more for an Alpina in that case.

Spyder_Venom

It was designed and implemented by GM even though they don't make it.

Next topic - Talking about GM over in Europe, a corvette over there is like a 911 TT over here. Over in Europe Caddy's are the big pimpin' cars to some while a BMW is like a Chevy Malibu. They get over 100K USD for a damn base model Vette over there - and there is a long waiting list from my understanding.

The grass is always greener on the other side.

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Nyenrodian

Well I don't want to shatter your dreams. But the main reason American cars aren't popular in Europe is because they aren't up to our tastes and preferences. They're more luxury barges while a BMW for instance is a Autobahn cruiser. We just LOVE Autobahn cruisers, driving in Germany is excellent. Especially the parts without speedlimit, i've gotten my beemer up to 245 km/h myself.

For the Caddy vs. BMW/Mercedes contest. There isn't any. Caddy sells worse than Lexus which is an enourmous achievement if you consider that Lexus sold only about 8000 LS400/430 cars over the entire continent during their existence. As said before, we love the teutonic cars. BMW 7-series, Merc S-class. Audi A8, the Phaeton even nowadays, although it doesn't sell. Then there is Jaguar from England which are pretty good cars.

We say a expensive Cadillac Seville is in the same class as a midclassed E class or 5 series.

But due to European chauvinism we consider the Corvette not a proper sportscar. Handlingwise and build quality wise that is. The good thing is that it offers the lowest price per hp. it's dirtcheap for a sportscar. 80k only. For that you can hardly get a Porsche Boxster let alone another serious sportscar like a Modena. Still, even though the Corvette is cheap, people don't buy it. It has the wrong sort of image. If you drive one of those you MUST be a pimp.

Another reason is that some American cars indeed are very expensive compared to the USA: For instance I wanted to buy a Mustang GT Convertible (I like 'em, can't help it ) but because of Emission standards it was not allowed to imported into the EU. Just the 6 cylinder version, which would be extremely expensive think about 45k for the base version no options. But this is because the Mustang must undergo several adjustments, otherwise it's not roadlegal overhere.

cookiezzz

Caddy's are hardly big pimpin cars over here (I'm in Sweden). They are a rare sight, and caddy has awful sales figures. I haven't even seen a CTS or an Escalade in real life.

BMW's are pretty common in upscale areas, but they are by no means a common working man's car.

Comparing a vette to a 911 doesn't hold either, vettes and camaros are a lot more common than porsches here, and they are mostly regarded as cheaper sports cars.

The european market's needs differ from North America greatly. Since gasoline is more expensive, smaller more fuel-efficient cars are favored, and that is why most of the american cars that DO sell well are the more compact ones (ford focus, mondeo etc.) They don't even bother to take cars like the Crown Vic overseas.

Nyenrodian

Apart from American cars not selling well in Europe I think this is a good development.

If all 5 of the major car companies start to make their own standard of fuel cell cars it will be terrible for the "petrol stations" because what kind of equipment should they buy? The Volkswagen groups, or the GM stuff?

A global standard can definitely speed up the development of fuel cell cars and getting them to the market faster. Which is beneficial for everyone. Except for the oil producing nations.

Spyder_Venom

Hummm, I guess I am wrong. I was talking with a exporter on the east coast and he said that they don't sell ton but they get a lot of money for them. Ehhh - its nice the TFP is representin' from all over.

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