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Old 06-28-2003, 01:25 PM   #1 (permalink)
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this thread is sure to cause some disagreement

I contend that the success of the Harley Davidson brand of motorcycles (and the undying loyalty of the owners of such bikes) is the perfect embodiment of the true nature of American entrepreneurial spirit: the triumph of style over substance.


discuss.
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Old 06-28-2003, 04:35 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Is the loyalty really undying these days? Harley has dramatically changed its fan base. More and more of the customers are simply buying an off-the-peg identity or affiliation.
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Old 06-28-2003, 05:19 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: this thread is sure to cause some disagreement

Quote:
Originally posted by Sion
discuss.
disagree.
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Old 06-28-2003, 11:09 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Oh, man. I can fill up pages on this one. I'll TRY to stick with the Reader's Digest version. Harley Davidson builds nice bikes that are quite dependable these days. The problem is that they are resting on their laurels. They have the most recognizable product in the world (next to the Big Mac), and all they want to do is sell them at any cost. I bought one a few years ago and have spent thousands replacing the chintzy plastic crap the factory slathers on them with metal. I put a new set of exhaust pipes on it so it sounded like a Harley and not a Honda. I also had to put a new carb on it because the old one was set up so lean that the bike would sputter and die (I could have tweaked the old carb, but I really wanted an S&S). Not only that, but dealers are gouging the public with extra charges and fees simply because they know people will pay them just to ride a Harley. I say piss on Harley and if you want an American V-twin, buy a custom bike. They're already tricked out, their dealers actually give a damn about the customer, and they're a better bargain considering what you already get with the bike (and what you don't have to fix from the H-D factory). That's my statement, and I have the receipts to back it up.
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Old 06-29-2003, 07:58 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I think a lot of their recent (~10 years) success is due to marketing, brand managment, etc. They haven't done a whole lot of design/innovation to me. Granted Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, etc. are turning out harley-like models to get in on that market also. They bought Buell and have done some with that company but that's not really in the core Harley market.

I'm with IronDawg that if you've got/going to spend the money for a new Harley then you go look at the custom bike builders. If you want to pick up a classic to restore/ride then that's better too then a new one.

Most of the people I've met riding new harleys bought them for the status symbol not because they really like to ride, really like the product, always wanted a bike, it's what their dad had.

Disagreement is good. I've got my opinion and others have theirs. If there's discussion then we all get to read what others think/feel. May change someone's mind. I've been known to change my mind every once in a while. If it turns into a flame fest then that would suck.
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Old 06-29-2003, 08:44 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I cite as an example of what I am talking about with regard to two of the newer models from HD vs Honda:

The Harley V-Rod costs in the neighborhood of $18-20k.

The Honda VTX 1800cc costs in the neighborhood of $12-13k.

the VTX is twice the bike that the V-Rod is.
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Old 06-30-2003, 05:08 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Good luck finding a dealer that will sell you a V-Rod for $18-$20K. Most of them around here are going for mid to high $20s. One reason for the cost difference between the V-Rod and the VTX is that there were lots of costs incurred during the design and fabrication of that bike by HD. Plus, it is a drastic departure from anything that Harley has previously sold to the public. Its newness draws a higher price for some strange reason. The metric cruisers like the VTX have been around in some form or another since the '80s, and have always been good looking, dependable machines with plenty of power on tap to satisfy any rider. The only reason that I didn't buy one is that for my money, I'd like an American product. I had a Yamaha Maxim X that I really liked, but I bought it used from a friend and sold it once I got my HD. Now I'm considering selling my Softail for a custom chopper simply because the Harley Davidson Motor Company cares more about their bottom line and selling clothes to wannabe bad-asses than it does makiing their blue-collar customers happy. I think that they've forgotten that it was the grimey bikers that kept them selling bikes during the late '70s and early '80s, when the best thing you could say about a Harley was that it didn't leak too bad if you never rode it. Now look at them. A good product with bad customer service. I hope they learn their lesson. In the mean time, you'll see more imported bikes on the streets because those folks know a good deal when they see one.
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Old 06-30-2003, 08:38 AM   #8 (permalink)
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For the money it takes to buy a Harley, you could buy 2 japanese name cruisers that are built here in the good ole USA (Marysville, Ohio). You could then put one of them in your garage and ride the piss out of the other one until it absolutely falls apart (10-20 years), then pull out the brand new bike and ride it until it falls apart. 2 great bikes for the price of one.

I honestly think that half or more of the people riding Harley's are doing it for the status symbol, it's the trendy thing to do like hanging out at Starbucks.

It doesn't matter what you ride, as long as you ride. The true motorcyclists, will know what I'm talking about. I've met some really great people that ride Harleys, but unfortunately most have just been complete jerkoffs. I'll pull up to the biker hangout on my CBR and get remarks like "park your ricerocket somewhere else"

If I had a lot of money to throw around I might buy a Harley, I'd like to have one, but until then I'll keep on getting my Hondas.
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Old 06-30-2003, 10:33 PM   #9 (permalink)
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here is another example:


about the same time several years ago, my brother and I both bought used motorcycles.

sometime in early june of 2000.

I bought a 1982 Honda Nighthawk 650 for $350. bike had been sitting in a garage for 3 years. I replaced the clutch cable with one from a bike junkyard and was riding that afternoon. several days later I replaced the battery. Total cost to put into regular service: $400. (not counting insurance or title & tag costs). some other minor repairs (tail light lens, new plugs, recover the seat, etc) later and I am still under $1000 for total cost of three years of ownership (thats counting gas, oil, insurance, everthing).

my brother bought a 1975 Sportster 1000 for $4000. It wasnt quite a basket case, but needed tons of work. after countless hours of work and I dont even know how much money, he got to ride it for about two weeks before it got too cold out. he has had to replace the clutches, do a complete brake overhaul, STILL has an electrical problem that he cant pin down, has had the top and bottom of the engine overhauled, the cylinders bored 10 over, and I cant even remember what else. easily has $6k into it just in initial plus repair costs. not to mention cost of all the accessories (fat gas tank, lots of chrome, apehanger handle bars, etc) which he had to have. his total cost of 3 years of ownership has got to be at least $7k by now, probably closer to $8k.

I rode my bike more that first summer than he has total since buying his. not out of lack of time or desire to ride, but out of having to work on the thing constantly.

he has almost 10 times the amount of money invested for less than half the amount of riding time.


but at least he can say he owns a Harley. good for him.
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Old 07-01-2003, 06:44 PM   #10 (permalink)
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My Dad has a 50's era HD sitting in pieces in his garage and attic. One of these days, it'll see pavement again. I just hope he's still young enough to be the one riding it.

Luckily, once that day comes, he'll probably die happily and it'll be mine, all mine!

(I'm kidding, my Dad is too cool to imagine dead, but I want to see the bloody thing on the road.)
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Old 07-01-2003, 09:33 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Harley Davidson is the ultimate triumph of style over substance. If harley riders really gave a shit about performance, there would be 0 harleys sold. Let's face it, harley davidson motors haven't changed much in 50 years. They just now introduced a water cooled motor ( good job guys, japanese have been water cooling bikes for > 20 years ). Even a completely modified harley motor produces in the 115 horsepower area, and that's fuckin 1600cc. Wow. Stock 1200cc harleys produce ~65 horspower. Wow. I shat my pants. There is dozens upon dozens of non-harley motors producing that output with half the displacement. Good job harley engineers.Even alot of the japanese cruisers are bumping out more horsepower than the harley.

People always have "bought into" the image of motorcycles, just like people "buy into" the image of cars. Get over it, it's not going to change. If you are a harley rider who thinks that harleys are being ridden by more and more posers, ask yourself why you bought the harley in the first place. I'm guarenteeing that "performance", "economy", or "reliability" weren't in your list of reasons. Unless you know absolutely nothing whatsover about motorcycles and have never seen anything other than a harley. But clearly a 250 Rebel would be a more economical and reliable cruiser, and a VTX(or any number of models...) would be a better performing one. It's perfectly acceptable to like a machine for it's unique characteristics (such as a harley's engine sound, the sound of belt drive, the aesthetics of the frame/tank, the low revving engine). But to buy a harley ( other than a V-Rod) for the sake of high-performance is retarded. And people judging harley's on performance alone is equally as dumb ( the ever present import vs. harley flame war ).

Harleys exist in their own niche. They are overwhelmingly populated with their own (disinterested posers) riders. For the few hardcore non-RUB/poser HD riders out there, I seriously am sorry for you getting raped by dealers because HD can get away with selling anything for big bucks.
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Old 07-01-2003, 10:11 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I rember when I went to buy my first bike. I had a $3,000 budget. My dad was set on me getting a HD sportster. He used to have bikes in the 70's but since 2 kids and such hardly rides at all. So we are looking at bikes. I found my current bike (83 honda magna) a japinese cruiser. I liked it for the style and shaft drive. It also had an asking proce of $2200, not bad. Then we found a real shit box HD. It was the cheapest HD the dealer had, it was going to take some serous work just to make it run, then some serous $$$ just to make it look like it had not just been through WWIII. Needles to say they wanted well over $4000 for it. Yeah, I got the honda. It has been a good bike to me. I have had it for almost 8 years now. And even though I have given it some neglect on the part of a learner cyclist back in the days it still runs damned strong. And for a bike that turned 20 this year it ain't to shabby.
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Old 07-01-2003, 10:27 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I think there's two types of people that buy new and used newer hd's, people who want the harley name to be "cool bros", or people who've been riding harleys their whole life and wanna stay with 'em.

I'm into older hd motorcycles, choppers baby

I dont see any reason to buy a new one. for many thousands less you can buy a jap bike that PERFORMS better, and can be made to look the same (ugh) or better, UNIQUE? and if you really wanted to you take the the extra money that you would have spent on the harley and make that japper really perform.

on the more expensive models you're shelling out 6+k more than the bike would actually be worth (looking at it as the MOTORCYCLE that it is, and not the name attached) just so the bike says "harley davidson" on it........
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Old 07-06-2003, 11:58 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I would rather have a old 30's knucklehead in a wide glide frame...it keeps it value and it is pretty reliable.
Just like this one..my dads
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Old 07-08-2003, 10:54 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Sion don't forget, when your bro goes to sell that bike he will get a lot of his money back, of course not all of it. But he will still make out good.

I think a lot of the bad mouthing from people on Harley's is just from pissed off uneducated (on motorcycles) people who just want to bitch. There are barely any problems with the EVO harley motor and no problems have yet to be established with the new twin cam motor.

Harley has really stepped it up, they make good quality motorcycles and when you buy one you get the "welcome to the family" video that tells you exactly what you are getting. Harley riders are good to each other, it's a family and it is a bond, believe it or not. We have had harley's in our family forever, and I can't even count the times another "Harley brother" has reached out, it's amazing.

I personally am not a fan of the jap cruisers, they just seem like a copy/rip off to me. They don't have the style and herritage that harley does, and I don't think they look near as good.

Lastly, when you compare a VTX to a V-rod, that's apple's to oranges. Just look at the two,
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Old 07-08-2003, 08:05 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Sorry, but there have been several problems with the Evos. My '88 is of the case-breathing variety, and if it sits for awhile (like during an Ohio winter) I get to clean up a puddle of oil from under the bike. Also, the factory oil pumps are crap. It is very common for an Evo to have dangerously low oil pressure at idle, simply because the stock pump is inadequate. In regards to Twin Cams, I know of only one serious "problem." On the early engines, the cam bearings were shit. The factory knew that the bearings sucked, but they put them in anyway. This occured throughout the entire 1999 model year and into the early 2000 model year. I've been told by several dealers and custom shops that if I hear what sounds like marbles being shaken inside a tin can coming from my 2000 Softail, pull over immediately and have it towed to the nearest repair facility for an engine rebuild. Did Harley Davidson recall those bikes? No. Will they upgrade to the new style bearings for free? Nope. But they'll sure take your cash after those bearings go south and you're staring at thousands of dollars to rebuild your engine. In contrast, Ford recalled thousands of 1999 Cobras simply because the exhaust was too restrictive and it wasn't making the horsepower that they advertised. There was no dangerous or expensive gremlin waiting to rear its ugly head, it just wasn't right, so they fixed them for free. Shame on Harley for not doing the same. I used to be just like you, in love with Harleys. I still like the bikes, but the shabbiness of the company overshadows the heritage and style of the bike. And in regard to your "apples and Oranges" comment about the VTX and the V-Rod, do you know why harley built the V-Rod? To try to get back some of the sales that were being lost to metric cruisers. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em! Lastly, I bought my bike right off the showroom floor from Hall's HD in Chico, CA, and I didn't get a video. All I got was an attitude and a cut-rate T-shirt.
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Old 07-08-2003, 08:42 PM   #17 (permalink)
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"Lastly, when you compare a VTX to a V-rod, that's apple's to oranges. Just look at the two"

true enough, they are not designed to go head to head competing for the same market share. However, I stand by my statement that the VTX is twice the bike that the V-Rod is for a third less money.
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Old 07-09-2003, 07:26 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Irondawgs,

I never heard about the bearing problem in the 99-00 motors, maybe this was something that never happened in Canada? I know of a few family friends who have 00's and no problems with more then a few miles on the clock.

I can't believe they never gave you the video and the other literature. Especially because all the stuff is American, the video talks about the HOG group and the family stuff blah blah blah....

Lastly, when I said apples to oranges, I basically meant you are buying a Harley Davidson motorcycle that took A LOT of r&d dollars to create, there arn't that many on the road but honda's are a dime a dozen. Sometimes you have to pay to be different, I wouldn't go to say it's three times the bike unless maybe you have ridden both and come to that conclussion.

But that's just me, I have nothing against Jap bikes since I own one myself (motocross bike) but when it comes to a cruiser, I will stick to a Harley. Even if I am a sucker for the image...
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Old 07-09-2003, 08:30 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sion
Re: this thread is sure to cause some disagreement
I agree.
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Old 07-09-2003, 10:52 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Old 07-09-2003, 01:06 PM   #21 (permalink)
Upright
 
Quote:
Originally posted by Bones
quote

"the VTX is twice the bike that the V-Rod is."

AND ANY ONE WILL TELL YOU THIS

but the vtx is NOT A HARLEY.

some might say the ford mustang saleen cobra is twice the car a new porsche is. (BUT ITS NOT A PORSCHE)

name brand recognition.

and fuck the fact that you had to put more money into it.

isnt that half the fun?

and shit harley are genius's for doing that (refer to ACTUAL QUESTIONS dealing with entrepreneurial spirit)

people want harleys they buy them for 20k and put 10k more into them at least

i have 12k alone in CHROME on my bike.

why?

its fun and its a harley.

id rather push a harley than ride a honda

(go ahead insert joke here about harleys breaking down)

SAY ANYTHING YOU WANT ABOUT OTHER BIKES

(ITS STILL NOT A HARLEY)
You're absolutely right. It's not a Harley. so what.

japan inc and harley took 2 different roads. Harley had a product that sold, so they kept selling it. does it matter that they've not kept up with technology? not if you're a HD stockholder it doesn't. Harley found out that if they stick their name on it, people will buy it. so, that's exactly what they did. You can buy anything from coffee mugs, barbie dolls, leather goods that offer little in the way of function, but have that all important name emblazoned on them... to even motorcycles - at a harley dealership. In that sense, Harley is a roaring success.

Go into a japanese manufacturers dealership, and you'll find Motorcycles, watercraft, ATV's, protective apparel.... The japanese manufactureres have strived to use the latest technology on their motorcycles, harley's not put a great deal of effort into bettering their techology.

In my opinion, harley doesn't make the best motorcycles for me, and that's what's is most important.
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Old 07-09-2003, 01:55 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Location: Alpharetta, GA
I am tired of all the Harley b.s. ... my dumb brother in law convinced my sister to name my new niece Harley! WTF????

I'm down w/ WCC and OCC ... got the WCC sticker on the rear window of my truck
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Old 07-09-2003, 05:14 PM   #23 (permalink)
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you down with opp?
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Old 07-09-2003, 05:25 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Location: Kentucky
Who's down with opp?
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Old 07-09-2003, 09:05 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bones
hey sion,

when i look under a harley i see oil sometimes

when you look under yours do you see this?


nope, when I look under my Honda, I see the pavement Im rolling over, and over, and over, with next to no maintenance and at a reasonable cost.


my opinion is that anyone who honestly and true agrees with the statement "I'd rather push a Harley than ride a Honda" is that that person is a fool who has been easily parted from his money.


a motorcyle is for riding. sure, its nice to look cool while you do it, but if the thing wont run, its just a damned expensive garage decoration. guess what? for about 1/10,000th of the price, I can buy a full sized poster of a cool looking Harley and tack it up on the wall.


finally, as to the VTX. no, its not a Harley. how can you tell? it looks great AND it runs like a champ. at a third less cost. sounds like a winner to me.
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Old 07-10-2003, 07:10 AM   #26 (permalink)
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I was just going to quote the old saying from the Harley group, but bones beat me to it.

And I think it's completly true, if someone has to explain where the pride comes in from owing a Harley, the other person probably won't be able to comprehend it. Not because they are stupid or ignorant, just because they can't understand why.

When I look at a Honda I see cheap Chrome, cookie cut stamped fenders with odd shapes, motors with no sound, no feel, just like a lawn mower. I am NOT knocking Honda's at all, this is just my opinion, I think they do there job great, just a bike to ride and do it's job, go down the street.

Harley's give you a persona (yea cheezy as it sounds), they give you a family, friends, solid Chrome, American made blood sweat and tears, a part of a company that survived through the depression and all those years, it's history and it's pride.

There is nothing like throwing your leg over a Harley and firing it up on a sunny morning. You arn't just buying a bike... and that's that.
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Old 07-12-2003, 11:01 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Old 08-07-2003, 05:43 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Location: NJ
Uninspiring engineering, meager performance, mediocre quality. Yep these are all great reasons to pay $15k for a bike. No way I would buy a new Harley. Some of the more classic ones would interest me but not a new one.
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Old 08-07-2003, 09:02 PM   #29 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: SE USA
As much as I dig my Dad's HD, I don't care for the Cult of Personality that HD has built. Yeah, it's wierd to talk about a motorcycle company as a Cult of Personality, but that is the best way I can describe it.

I decided to build a custom bike. I want a chopper. No, not the crazy wacko stuff that WCC or OCC builds, more like the stuff from the 70's that I grew up digging. My friends kept asking me when I was going to buy a Harley and how I was going to afford it. I found that funny.

About half the bikes I grew up lusting after were the very selfsame "Japcrap" that HD owners jack their jaws about so much. I went out and bought a '74 Honda CB750K4. From about 69-75 or so, the CB750 was the baddest bike on the road, period. Quite a number of texts on motorcycle history call it the most important bike built to that point. The important part for me was remembering all those cool-ass Honda chops from the 70's. Sure, your normal custom bike dink is going to go after that same HD style. I want my custom bike to be a real extension of me, and that means that I don't want what you have. I want what I want.

My favorite is the "cookie cutter" comment. You realize how "cookie-cutter" HD's are? The vast majority are stockers, and the ones that aren't are trailer queens, or bought bikes. I will build mine, I will ride mine, and I will maintain mine. You can have your purchased persona. I have one already.
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Old 08-07-2003, 09:07 PM   #30 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: SE USA
As an aside, those classic HD's were pretty mediocre too. They look better than the current models, more soul, if you will. They weren't great bikes though. In the 30's and 40's, people that raced, ran Indians. Harder to tune, but ran like the wind when they did. The 50's and early 60's were running on hot Brit-bikes like Triumphs and BSA's. 70's were the age of very hot Jap-bikes like my 750, and later the 750's and 900's put out by other Jap-makers. Harley just sorta ran second or third.

My Dad, as an HD owner, was fond of a coupla good comments.

"It doesn't leak oil, it marks its' territory."
"You want to go fast? Sell that thing and buy a Triumph."

When he was a young guy tearing through the Appalachian mountains, it was always Brit bikes, with him on the BSA and my uncle on a Triumph. What I wouldn't give for that BSA or the Triumph. Awesome bikes.
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Old 08-09-2003, 01:53 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Harley Heritage? Does heritage mean making something for a long time, whether its good or bad? I like v-twins, Ive even thought seriously about buying a harley, but every time I go and look at them I see the crudity of the frame and the lack of development. Don't confuse age with breeding. I've got an Aprilia vee, and I'll take any Harley on on any road.
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Old 08-09-2003, 10:04 PM   #32 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Louisiana
Man if you are gonna spend some serious cash.. lol buy a chopper from Orange County Choppers..

Harley's are nice.. rode a few in my time.. nothing beats them.. buy and old one and fix it up.. its got character.. now a days.. its turely a factory bike.. sigh
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Old 08-11-2003, 10:58 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Location: NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by Moonduck
As an aside, those classic HD's were pretty mediocre too. They look better than the current models, more soul, if you will. They weren't great bikes though. In the 30's and 40's, people that raced, ran Indians. Harder to tune, but ran like the wind when they did. The 50's and early 60's were running on hot Brit-bikes like Triumphs and BSA's. 70's were the age of very hot Jap-bikes like my 750, and later the 750's and 900's put out by other Jap-makers. Harley just sorta ran second or third.
No doubt. My point about buying an older one was just that I like to rebuild bikes. It makes them more "mine" after I've torn down the engine, stripped and painted the frame, rebuilt the carb, etc. I just don't get the same feeling from a brand new bike.
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Old 08-11-2003, 05:57 PM   #34 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: SE USA
I'm with ya there, bro! That's why I've got a 30 year old piece of iron in my garage right now. =)
Moonduck is offline  
 

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