Phant84

i think that every needs to remember that any type of quote can be offensive to another person. take something seemingly innocent like religion and someone somewhere is going to be offended.

there are many, many phrases that when you hear them for the 1st time, you are offended. even if you know that it isnt the best or most PC phrase to use, hearing XYZ phrase 50 times a week, you can, as much as you hate it, become immune to it. does it mean that you are a crude person? no.

down here there are many terms and phrases that are used, by everyone, that you just get used to it. doesnt mean that you go around referring to myself as a gringo or a guero, but i dont get offended as much anymore.

is it offensive, yes, but not to everyone. different people have different standards and levels of respect, as anyone could tell by reading some of the previous posts (ie JesusPimp)

those are my 2 cents and feel free to slap me in the face, tell me how wrong i am, whatever.

just because opinions are free doesnt mean you have to take them. mine or anyones.

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Phant

Irrationality is the square root of all evil

maleficent

Aghhhhh So it's OK to talk about a person, especially in a demeaning way, behind their back?

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TexanAvenger

Everybody quiet down... she's in here now. We don't want her to hear what we've been saying....

Ho...

Phant84

*Phant forgets that he ever knew Tex and slowly backs away*

Somebody is getting ready to die.......................................

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Phant

Irrationality is the square root of all evil

StanT

And that would be Ms Ho to you.

chickentribs

After reading my previous post, I did want to jump in and apologize if Jesus Pimp, or anyone else somehow took what I said as directed their way. It wasn't.

But the argument that "ho" is now a part of society's vocabulary so it shouldn't be considered offensive doesn't make sense to me. The word did and still does mean "whore", and if a friend of mine ever called a girl I was dating, friends with, or just hanging out with for the night a whore he would end the night minus a friend and probably some teeth. Disrespecting anyone one I am with, friend or acquaintance, is disrespecting me.

You can say I am thin skinned or emotional if you would like, but to tell you the truth I was much weaker when I used to let stuff like that slide. For me, respect is at the core of my friendships and I can't think of anything more worthy of drawing a line and standing firm.

Oh, sorry again Pimp.

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stingc

Maybe some of this disagreement has to do with how men and women generally interact.

It is not at all uncommon for good male friends to regularly "insult" each other, and generally say things that are as outrageous as possible. None of it means anything. It's just an (admittedly immature) way of passing time/having fun. All men know, however, that you can't talk to women like that.

From what I gather, female friends never use insulting language to each other unless they really mean to offend. They in fact seem to go out of their way to make sure nothing they say can possibly be intepreted as even slightly offensive.

Men much more often take the point of view that words can only be offensive if they're meant to be. With that in mind, "bro's before ho's" is not meant to imply that the woman is a whore. The word "ho" is used just because it rhymes, and the expression is well-known (I don't know its origins). It's actually more often meant as an insult to the man. Some possible translations might be "grow a spine" or "stop thinking with your dick".

Squishor

Stingc, I think that's a very astute observation. Now that I think about it, I really think that's true. I don't think me or any of my friends would dream of jokingly calling each other a "bitch" or "whore" unless we were prepared for some very serious repercussions, including the possible loss of that friendship. I haven't ever heard guys using that phrase but what you're saying makes a lot of sense.

Gilda

That it rhymes doesn't really alter that it's a contraction of "whore". Many others in this thread have said that the phrase refers to abandoning friends in favor of sex with a woman, which would seem to indicate that "ho" is being used to denigrate the woman involved.

In any case, even if we accept that it's a phrase that's acceptable among male friends, that's not how it was used here. It was used here in public among a large group of women. Even if we accept everything you say, it was still rude to use it in this context.

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Cynthetiq

I knew a bunch of women in college that were like that... they constantly called each other things like slut, bitch, cunt, ho bag, tampon, and many other things, all in the name of ribbing each other.

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stingc

Yes, it often refers to abandoning friends over a woman. I don't see your implication at all, though. The man is being told to give his friends (bros) some respect. That doesn't (necessarily) have anything to do with the woman involved. For example, it's often used to tell a man to stop flirting with a woman that one of his friends has been interested in.

Fair enough, but I think the poster was just trying to be witty (certainly not a first on this board). That usually involves saying something a little off-color, and there's often a fine line between amusing people and offending them. He probably also didn't realize that the expression wasn't known to everyone.

Since we're now on the topic of how to act around the opposite sex, I think it is important to point out that men usually don't intend (or even think of) every possible implication in their choice of language before speaking. Similarly, there are often things women say that men will never pick up. I think we'd all be better off if we tried to recognize these things more often rather than just assuming a man was rude or a woman was overemotional.

Squishor

I don't know where these women have been hiding all my life. On the other hand, I also haven't known men who said these things either, so who knows what the answer is there. I'm starting to get this creepy feeling like I've been living under a bucket all my life but, you know, that's really not true. I've known a lot of people and plenty of young men too, and I certainly haven't restricted my exposure to the upper crust, not by a long shot! One thought occurs to me - could this possibly be an east coast/west coast thing?

I didn't get the impression that stingc was trying to justify insulting language, just that he was offering some analysis, btw.

Gilda

And in the process, calling the woman a whore.

Earlier in the thread:

And so forth. Pretty much everyone else who is defining the phrase says or implies that it is meant to insult the woman involved, that the guy is choosing sex over friendship. It implies that the only reason a man would choose to spend time with a girl rather than his friends is for sex.

Agreed. But I don't think it takes much analysis to understand that calling women other than prostitutes whores is likely to be perceived as insulting.

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stingc

Again, you're reading far too much into it. None of those quotes except for JinnKai's says anything about the woman involved. Unless you want to claim that any woman that sleeps with a man without being in comitted relationship is a "ho," your argument makes no sense.

If a man is choosing sex over friendship, then he's the one making that decision. The girl usually has no obligations to the man's friends. The phrase is directed solely at him.

There is also no implication that women are only good for sex. Of course some men do treat some relationships that way (as do some women), and his friends would certainly know when he's doing that. The previous posters were saying that this phrase could be used in those particular cases. It can also apply to more serious relationships in certain ways, but I don't see the point in going into every possible usage.

To be honest, I don't even know if I've really answered your complaints. I don't understand how you've reached any of your conclusions. Maybe the fact that you don't have relationships with men is clouding your judgement...

Yes, it was probably clear enough in this context. But all of the complaining should have died off after it was explained that nothing negative was implied.

As a related issue, a lot of slang terms have meanings that are different from their component words. For example, I've heard girls say things like "it took a lot of balls for me to do that." I think the meaning of that is so well-known that nobody would interpret her as saying that she was trying to be a man, was a transsexual, carried around a bunch of marbles, etc. Yet each of those interpretations might be possible for someone who was just learning english, and didn't know about slang yet. That's the kind of overanalysis you're applying in this thread.

Gilda

Read the quotes again. Of the five, only one doesn't specifically refer to the woman.

Regardless of who the phrase is addressed to, it refers to the woman involved as a whore. Unless the woman involved is a prostitute, it's use must be for purpose of denigrating her. That the man using this phrase is talking about women in an insulting manner rather than to women does not change this.

We must not be reading the same explanations. I see that clearly implied in many of the interpretations:

"The phrase stems from a distinct, oftentimes common, occurance of the man putting his woman before his friends. "

"friend ditched us for girlfriend "

"go and only hang out with their girlfriends for sex."

"women who prevent their boyfriends/husbands from having any social life outside their relationship don't deserve any respect in my book"

These phrases are being used as explanations for the phrase "bro's before ho's" Simple substitution shows us that in this context, friend = bro (brother) and girlfriend/woman = ho (whore). A whore is a woman who has sex for money. Other explanations are more explicit, referring to women whose boyfriends choose them over their friends as "sexually promiscuous" or "pussy".

First, there's no need to make this personal. My sexual orientation has nothing to do with the discussion.

Second, all of my casual friends are male--remember the comic group I referred to earlier? All guys. They're late teens/early 20's. I have no idea how they talk with each othe when I'm not around, and frankly I don't care. They don't, however, refer to women as whores, or use demeaning language to describe women when they're around me because that would be rude.

Jesus Pimp's subesequent posts in this thread made it pretty clear to me that something negative was implied.

"it took a lot of balls to do that" is a compliment. Calling a woman a whore is an insult. That's the kind of analysis I'm applying in this thread.

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stingc

The girl is in the quotes, but she's completely incidental. Even when she isn't there, it's obvious that the guy isn't going to go have sex with his hand. It seems obvious to me that the man is object of almost all of those quotes.

There are instances where it can be used to complain about the woman, but it is not at all automatic. It depends on the context. Lots of language can be insulting, but usually isn't. It depends on context. It was obvious to me (and other's who knew what it meant) that there was no insult implied here. Jesus Pimp clearly got fed up eventually, and stopped replying maturely. I almost feel like doing that too. Stop going out of your way to find problems with things.

Only the last of these says anything negative about the woman. That is a valid use of the phrase, but as I said above, it is one of many. It is not necessarily insulting to those who understand its meaning. Look, I know what the phrase means, and you admittedly don't. Just trust me.

You missed my point. It was that the meaning of the overall phrase was completely different than the meanings of the individual words. This isn't exactly the only place that this happens in the english language.

pig

Hmmm...I'm finding some of this a little interesting. I don't really see any way around the fact that many women are going to find the term "ho" insulting, so I'm staying away from that aspect. However, I've never known that phrase to be synonomous with "pussy-whipped." I've always heard it used as a invocation of the natural law of friendship involving non-competitiion over a particular girl. As in "regardless of what happens with girl x, we will still be friends."

Frankly, I think the comment is supposed to be a little insulting towards the woman, when used by men. In this sense, it removes the focus of the comment away from the woman, and towards the male relationship. It trivializes the woman, intentionally, in order to stress the importance of the male friendship. I'm not saying it's the greatest phrase ever invented, nor do I normally run around calling ladies "hos." I just think that's where it normally comes from. Something along the lines of "friends before females" is close, but not exactly it...and "brothers before intellectually stimulating, phyisically arousing, emotionally mature members of the opposite sex" just doesn't cut it.

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Gilda

I was replying to this statement of yours: "None of those quotes except for JinnKai's says anything about the woman involved." I'm glad to see that you now concede that they do say something about the woman.

I don't believe I've ever said this was a complaint about the woman. My point is that phrasing the complaint in this manner is insulting to the woman involved.

Exactly, it depends upon the context. The context here was that it was used on a public message board frequented by a large number of women, many of whom have reported that they found that particular usage offensive, and by men who were not part of the OP's social group. In that context, I find it insulting.

I'm not going out of my way. It's right there at the top of the thread: Ho's. As in whores. Further explanations have done nothing to change my perception that calling women whores is insulting.

That I disagree with you does not mean I don't understand. Where exactly have I "admitted" to not understanding?

I understand the meaning quite well, as it has been explained many times in this thread. It means, roughly "You should should not allow a relationship with a woman interfere with your relationship with your friends." Phrased this, way I find no problem with it. When you substitute whore for woman, as in the phrase Bros before hos, it becomes insulting. It isn't the situation being described that is offensive, it is the wording used to describe it.

I understand quite well how idiom works. This particular phrase was used not in a private discussion among a group of friends, but in a public fourm. Many of the women have posted, saying that they found the phrasing insulting. Thus, regardless of the intent, and I'm not entirely convinced that the OP's intent was entirely devoid of disrespect for the woman involved, as is evidenced by his subsequent posts, in the context of a public discussion, calling women whores is insulting.

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kangaeru

What use is it being offended by people who could care less who you are, what you're about, or how it makes you feel. Why do you even get offended by their passing garbage, and give them power over you?

People will say what they want to say, if they don't interfere with you and your routine, let them do whatever the hell they want, it's of no consequence to you.

What guy doesn't dislike those ho's who go out with a guy, create a bubble with him where they spend all their time together, don't allow them to socialize on their own, and generally 'censors' your ex-bro from all outside influence.

It's a common trend, and to that, us men say, bro's before ho's. It rhymes. It's cutting to the women who it really applies to and we don't like, and we like that. Maybe we'd stop saying it if it didn't bother them, or carry as much understanding as it does with any guy who hears it spoken.

Zeraph

I'm male, and yeah it's offensive and is usually used by those with less intelligence as apparently they can't remember things that don't ryhme.

Johnny Pyro

Girls, "Bros before women" don't rhyme. Maybe "Bros before girls"? No that won't work. Sorry girls, "Bros before Hos" it is.

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