door

If someone wants to read real good discourse on human rights look up Regan's Philosophies (he is pro animal rights) and Cohen's (I belive he is anti)

They do a good job of laying everything out. Never read only one side. Read all sides.

phredgreen

i have a much better idea. find them and post them here for the general population to read and form their own opinions. that's the recommended way to form a thread for discussion.

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BoCo

Animals have no rights.

However, you shouldn't have the right to torture them needlessly. Holding a calf in a small cage so it can't move, thereby ensuring perfect meat for later on isn't what I'd call needlessly; it's being done for food. Needlessly would be more like tying something up by its tail and beating it with a whip or whatever. That shoud be punishable by major jail time.

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double

Where goes the border for needlessly and unneedlessly? A calf doesnt have to be in a small cage to become perfect meat and where is the borderline for what is perfect meat and what is not?And perfect to whom?

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BoCo

If you're gonna kill it and eat it, then it's not needlessly. If you're just torturing it because you're a sick fuck, then it's needlessly and you should be locked up to protect the world from you.

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Peetster

I agree, BoCo, and for (probably) completely different reasons.

Every right has an associated responsability. Animals have neither. We have a right to eat animals. We also have a responsability to not be cruel to them. God gave us dominion over all living things. We are at the top of the food chain. I'm OK with that.

door

I am having trouble finding the articles so I will sum up-

Regan argues that killing animals for meat is bad, unless one is willing to also kill retarded people (severly that is) and newborn babies for meat. But no one would find this permicible.

The argument here is that there is no difference between a severly retarded baby and a calf. It seems to make sense.

Cohen says that animals have no rights because what gives something rights is the ability to be a moral agent. So a retarded baby doesn't have rights, save the ones we give it.


But let me interject something. It is ignorant (no offense) to unjustifyably say that animals have no rights, without an argument for why that is or isn't. Thats not arguing, thats opinion polling.

I am all for meat eating. I, on the other hand, wont eat veal because I see no need for it because, in part, I don't like it more than beef. But we corn feed catle which isn't natural, and we inject them with hormones for milking which causes there utter to get really sore, and I don't have a problem with that because we need milk.

But remember, animals not having rights means I can eat dog or cat. And as many asians know, a cat tastes better if it is shaved and then slowly beaten to death. It ends up more tender with the blood hemrages.

But is it ok to do that, just cause it tastes better?

louiedog

Actually we don't need milk. There's a reason you stop breast feeding and it's not really natural to drink cow's milk. The calcium you get from milk is not absorbed that well into your bones because you need something else to help it along that isn't in milk. That said, I do enjoy the taste and products made from milk, but in no way do we need it.

I also don't draw a line between cats, dogs, hamsters and fam animals like cows and chickens. Chickens have amazing memories, they can be trained to memorize hundreds of game states(see tic-tac-toe playing chickens in atlantic city) and hamsters don't, but we don't eat hamsters. I've never been able to train my cat to do anything but sleep all day and eat when he feels like it and go outside when he feels like it, but I've trained fish and we eat them.

I don't understand why animals shouldn't have rights. They're living creatures that feel pain. Do we really have to feel so superior that we can torture them instead of using them for meat humanely? Someone mentioned not torturing animals just to torture them. I invite people to do some research on Huntington Life Sciences. They do testing for cosmetic companies and drug companies. These tests include blinding young beagle puppies with chemicals which isn't necessary at all. The products I use aren't tested on animals and I haven't developed so much as a rash. They use sloppy science methods so that if a company gets sued because of their product they can say "but we tested it on animals."

At my University there was a breakin at a research lab many years ago. This happened after someone working undercover discovered that this head trauma research lab was improperly conducting tests. The subjects were monkeys, as intelligent as young child, that were undergoing head trauma so they could be studied. The only problem was that the people in the lab were breaking the law by not knocking the monkeys out first. There was evidence on videotape of the researchers commenting on it but they were too lazy to walk the length of the room to get more sedative. Imagine if we used awake gorillas in crash tests instead of those dummies. They had to endure this pain because these people felt they didn't have the right to be asleep during this. I find it sick and disturbing that someone would do that. Is this okay because they don't have rights?

Daval

This is indeed a tricky subject. I think that there is no need to be cruel and unusual to animals, and I have no problems with making sure they have basic needs fulfilled while they are being raised for our food. (open grazing spaces, etc.)

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dirty-proverbs

unless youre a devout vegan, whichever side you take either way you wind up being a hypocrite.

I only ask for humane treatment.

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homerhop

I eat meat ,I shoot alot and eat what I shoot. I shoot to kill and dont like when a bird, animal is not killed outright.I eat alot of fresh dairy products and the majority of the food I buy has been local farm products.
I have dogs and had the odd cat. All looked after and treated well.
What bugs me about the majority these people who expect animals to be treated the same as humans is that they put more value on animal lives than humans.
Here in Ireland the majority of people who dictate how people live in the countryside all live in towns and cities, and if you put them in a field with a cow they would shit themselves.
If these people loved animals so much let them start in their own areas. let them dictate to those who keep large dogs in tiny yards how they are doing wrong , or to people with more than two cats in their flats how cruel it is. and when they get puppies from working breeds for their kids (who abandon them when they grow)how that animals rights have been violated.And after all that they can go foster all the pets that have been left on the streets.
I know I have strayed off the subject but I put these people in the one basket with PETA and all those veggies who insist i do the same.

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Liquor Dealer

I suppose you are talking about veal - The reasonong you gave + a very high price have all but eliminated most of the market for veal - at least in our part of the world.

As to the string starter - Who is this Regan you are talking about? I guess I am willing to admit a lack of knowledge but the name rigns no bells for me.

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elaphe

Animal rights has become a "hot-button" issue in T.O (before the SARS crisis) when "Matt" (can't remember the full name...sorry!)was caught in Vancouver after video-taping skinning a cat alive. Sick shit. Unfortunately, the ways the laws are, he will probably get a slap on the wrist with little or no jail time.

This has prompted animal rights supporters to ask the government to toughen up the federal laws to give stiff penalties for sick bastards like "Matt". This bill is is meeting stiff resistance from agriculture. The fear is that some farming practices could be seen as inhumane and farmers could pay the price.

I work in the pet industry and I have seen some sick shit over the years. Personally, I only sell fish and aquariums. It is harder for me to become emotionally attached to fish than to mammals, birds or reptiles.

I can honestly say that I am an animal lover, but I can't justify PETA actions or stance. I will always value human life over an animal. But I also feel that their is a lot of room for improvement for the humane treatment of animals, whether it is for food or for pets. The line is fuzzy. I don't know if a law can be created that will punish the sick bastards but spares the Joe Bloe trying to earn a buck.

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sixate

Exactly. Although, I could care less if someone tortures an animal. I have no feeling at all for animals. I know people who take better care of their pets than their kids. Those are the people who need to serve jail time!

Mango

My chickens, ducks, turkeys and cow have the right to freezer space.

Loki

Actually, is there any proof that we are meant to be omnivores? i remember reading somewhere that we have a much thinner layer of enamel on our teeth then standard herbivores - who need a thick layer of enamel to protect thier teeth from sand and other byproducts of the grazing process.

But i also read that we have a much less powerful stomach acid then most carnivores, who need the acid to be able to digest thier prey.

Does anyone have any conclusive proof, just out of curiosity?

Anyway, I dunno about animal rights. what i do know is that the cute fuzzy wuzzy animals have a helluva lot more rights then the ugly ones do =)

WhoaitsZ

it amazes me how snobbish we human beings are with our intelligence superiority.

when it comes to veal: no fucking way. there is a big difference between a quick, clean, death than a tortured death. they are tortured their whole lives for a certain texture/and, or flavor. that is wrong.

and when it comes to selling pets i worry a lot when i see pets sold. it's just a tension builder. i am hoping to get baby lizards to sell soon and i know i'll be wiggin out over their care... and i've done this with fish too. it is easier to turn our head and just not hear or see the torture possibilities, but that is just a quick way to ease our concscience.

besides. willingly saying it is easier to sell a fish because there is no emotional attachment is a good example of our intelligence really not being so great, maybe?


animals should have rights. we eat them, we use them. they make our economy, they feed us. they deserve, at least, a comfortable life they DO have. i mean, come on. they are already going to die for us, do we have to be cruel also? are we honestly this spoiled?

door

so if animals have rights do plants also? There is evidence that they go through all the same biological pain responses as a mamal would.

And is there right on equal ground with us?

Regan is a Philosopher. His arguments are very compelling.

WhoaitsZ

there is evidence showing that plants have pains and what not? hmm

that could change almost my whole philosophy I've built for 24 years.

louiedog

Should we not medicate a person with a virus because some people believe they are alive?

BBtB

I would very much like to see that evidence. Not that I doubt you but I would like a credible source to quote.


I THINK he was being sarcastic. Saying "if we give animals the same rights as humans then whats next,plants?" sorta thing. My thought is that animals do not have any rights persay other then maybe just the right not to be tourted. I think veal IS torture but I am also fairly sure that that market is pretty much dead.

Easytiger

Just to throw some more fuel on the fire, farm cattle consume 50% of the world's grain and fresh water and provide far less nutrition for the cost than vegetables do.
Forget animal cruelty and consider how many more PEOPLE could be kept from starving if we switched away from eating meat.

hotzot

Even the top of the food chain ends up at the bottom.

Susan Peavey 7th grade teacher

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BBtB

Of course you are completly ignoring the fact that the reason their are starving people has to do with politics and nothing to do with there not being enough food. Go to a grocery store. See all the food? How much do you think they have to throw out because it gets old? Just saying.